[Rant] I want some magic items!

[Cicciograna]

Okay, I have to complain about my DM. Last night, finally, we put our hands on a handful of magic items: his rewards have ALWAYS been very meager, but now we hit the bottom.

He decided to roll them casually.

We ended with a +1 Frost Shortsword, a +2 Icy Burst Longbow, a +1 Flaming Dagger, a Ring of Chamaleon Power, Gloves of Arrow Snaring, another weapon, probabily a longsword, I can't remember, but its enhancement was +1 plus a special ability, a Luckstone, a Cloak of Elvenkind and a bunch of scrolls, the best of which is a Permanency scroll. Oh, and I forgot the best of the best, a FREAKIN' BAG OF TRICKS (GRAY) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html)!!! Aaaargh!!!

Okay then. The rogue got the shortsword, and the ring; the ranger got the longbow, the Cloak, the Luckstone and the Gloves; the bard got the dagger; the paladin got the longsword, even if she has more powerful weapons; and I, the sorcerer, obviously got the damned scroll. God, I hate single use items. As I said, the best scroll would be the Permanency: it's a shame that I don't know any of the Permanenciable spells, and that wizards are non-existant in this campaign, so I can't even use the MF scroll for a MF See invisibility.

All of my friends have at least one (or more) magic items, and many permanencied spells already: I joined them later, and was rescued by them, so I had none. To cope with my lack of magic items, the DM gave me (when I was 9th level) a permanent +1 resistance bonus to all STs and a +3 NATURAL ARMOR BONUS to AC!!! To me, a caster!!!

Oh, I forgot to tell you. We are 13th (!) level. THIRTEENTH! FREAKIN'! LEVEL!!! :smallfurious: :smallfurious: :smallfurious:

I hate my DM!

[Thefurmonger]

So tell your "Friends" to share the wealth?

Seriously this seemss like a party issue not a DM one.

Also take a crafting feat.

[Cicciograna]

So tell your "Friends" to share the wealth?

Seriously this seemss like a party issue not a DM one.

Also take a crafting feat.

I have no use for any of the items they have. Weapons? I don't need them. Armor? Who cares? Items that enhance skills I'll never use? Pass. The only item I could benefit from would be the Luckstone, but the ranger was so thrilled for it, I don't think he would give it to me; moreover, the ones getting hit by spells and so requiring saving throws are them, I'm usually out of the line of many nasty things that hit them.

The crafting has been made utterly impossible by the DM: each item requires a special quest to be crafted, to find "dedicated components" to craft it. And he made clear that the "dedicated components" would be nearly impossible to be found when I asked him what would I need to craft an item granting me a +5 to initiative: he just glared at me smiling sardonically.

[NOhara24]

I have no use for any of the items they have. Weapons? I don't need them. Armor? Who cares? Items that enhance skills I'll never use? Pass. The only item I could benefit from would be the Luckstone, but the ranger was so thrilled for it, I don't think he would give it to me; moreover, the ones getting hit by spells and so requiring saving throws are them, I'm usually out of the line of many nasty things that hit them.

The crafting has been made utterly impossible by the DM: each item requires a special quest to be crafted, to find "dedicated components" to craft it. And he made clear that the "dedicated components" would be nearly impossible to be found when I asked him what would I need to craft an item granting me a +5 to initiative: he just glared at me smiling sardonically.

If you're not happy about how a game is going, leave. He could be trying to limit the party's power level through controlling the type of items that you all come across. But regardless, if you don't like how something is going, do yourself a favor and tell your DM why, and if he doesn't change it, leave the game.

[Keneth]

I know the feeling of having very low wealth and no useful items. But on the other hand, you're a sorcerer, the only really useful things to you are consumables, such as scrolls and wands, to increase your utility, and probably a few metamagic rods. The occasional wondrous item or ring doesn't hurt either but it's not exactly necessary to be efficient, unlike the rogue, ranger, paladin, and to some degree even bard, who all need good equipment just so they can function. :smallsmile:

[Caedes]

Alo,

So, how is your DM about buying enchants for your weapons and the like? Can typically do this in a bigger city with a npc.

Warning (MIC). +1 weapon enhancement cost, held. +5 insight bonus to initiative (doesn't stack with the Helm of Righteous War) Don't put this on your primary weapon, put this on something like your armor spikes. If you can somehow get away with it, put it on a shuriken and use the ammunition pricing rules to get it at a 98% discount. Then try getting away with holding the shuriken in your teeth, because it makes you look like a badass and leaves your hands free.
Eager (MIC). +1 weapon enhancement cost, held. +2 untyped bonus to initiative, and a secondary benefit. The bonus is smaller than on the Warning enhancement (see above), so get that one first.

Also, Are you in a typical Campaign? IE. Are you in the Forgotten Realms? Eberron? Or is this a world that your DM has created?

In the long run, I agree you should talk with your DM that you are not having as much fun because of this. As a DM myself I know what it is like to try and keep a certain tone or theme in a story. But, I also know that without my players I have no story or tone or theme. So, on occasion I take in the feedback from the party or get an e-mail from one of them and make the tweaks or address their concerns.

So do the open dialogue and see what he has to say. If he does not give you an answer that makes you more comfortable in the game, then you might want to consider bowing out gracefully and searching for a different group that fits yours tastes.

After all. The game is supposed to be fun. :)

[Psyren]

Take Vow of Poverty :smalltongue:

Okay, helpful advice - what class are you? If you're a weaker class and you need magic items to function competently, you have to get your DM to see reason if he wants you to contribute. But if you're a class that can get by on its own (e.g. Totemist) just look at the lack of items as a challenge and have fun without them.

EDIT: You're a sorcerer? Come on man. Take Eschew Materials and go to town, you can kick ass without ever relying on the DM for handouts.

[Diarmuid]

If many of those items are not actually going to see use by the people who took them, then why not sell them and buy things that will be useful to the party.

I'm sorry, but your post just comes off as whining while you're playing a Tier 2 caster alongside a Rogue, Ranger, and Paladin.

Maybe the DM is trying to make sure that his long term players (who were there before you were) dont get steamrolled by the sorceror, or feel that the "new guy" is being treated better than they are.

Both of which are perfectly viable. Now, if he is indeed rolling the loot randomly then you dont have one thing to complain about. You're just the victim of bad numbers. The same thing could happen in the game, would you complain if the DM rolled every roll in the open and every attack against you hit and every one against the others failed?

[Kalmageddon]

Well, you are a sorcerer.
A ranger, a rogue and a paladin are all at a disadvantage against a tier 2 class. I wouldn't be so bothered by the lack of magical items if I were you, your character is the one that probably needs them less.
Then again you could just talk to your DM or your group about this issue, because I really can't scream HERESY if a DM rolls for the loot instead of deciding by himself.

[Lonely Tylenol]

So, let me get this straight: the least item-dependent member of the party (per class) was rescued (from what?) with more than half their WBL in items with useful static bonuses (Natural Armor bonuses stacking with the armor bonus from Mage Armor and/or Bracers of Armor, as well as with the shield bonus from Shield, and resistance bonus to saves being, well, a resistance bonus to saves), and later takes their anger out on the DM when the DM's randomly rolled treasure hoard doesn't yield useful magic items for the least item-dependent member of the party?

If the scroll of Permanency is so useless to you (as in: you can't pay any caster, ever, the paltry sum it would take for them to cast See Invisibility on you; clearly Sorcerers exist in this world, after all), then sell it for the 10,000 gold it's worth (or whatever you can get out of that) and buy yourself something nice.

Otherwise, this looks to me like something that more belongs in the "I got shafted on a bad roll" threads than "my DM is out to kill me" threads.

[Cicciograna]

Okay, some additional info.

The game is Pathfinder, so I already have Eschew Materials.

The campaign is uncustomary. We are playing in a setting called Northlands, with some elements from Forgotten Realms (at the moment we should be on Toril, but in a nation ported from Northlands), in a definitely poor and low-level world: there aren't big cities around, and even if there were the DM fiercely opposes the concept of magic-mart (so there's no simply "going to town to buy a new magic weapon"); and even if he allowed them, he wouldn't have them selling anything but consummables; by the way, our finances are pretty low, so buying magic items, apart from scrolls and potions, is out of game - and even then, the lack of high level spellcasters heavily limits us on what's available.

And since the world is poor, selling the magic items we have is impossible, since there are not buyers, so we're basically stuck with what we have.

Now, re-reading my posts, it actually seemed I was whining. Mind me, I'm having fun: I'm enjoying the campaign and the game runs smoothly. But for me, part of the fun comes from having many powerful items to use, and being denied this share of fun kinda annoys me. Moreover, the role I picked for my PC is battlefield controller/debuffer: my concerns are for the second part of the role, as many of the spells I cast require saving throws, and my DC would surely be higher if I had access to some magic item. It's frustrating to see my spells fail.

For example, last evening I cast Slow onto three 6th level fighters: a debuffing spell targeting the worst ST of my enemies. My DC for such a spell was 19, if I recall correctly, but the DM rolled a 17 and a 18 for two of the enemies: I admit that my DM is really, REALLY lucky, but I'd like to reach a point when, if supported by, say, a Cloak of Charisma or an Orange Ioun Stone, the luck of two 6th level opponents doesn't matter, and they simply fail their STs.


stuff

And reading this post, I realize that the information given were absolutely necessary.


So, let me get this straight: the least item-dependent member of the party (per class) was rescued (from what?)
Irrelevant. I was bound and with no magic items. Period.


with more than half their WBL in items with useful static bonuses (Natural Armor bonuses stacking with the armor bonus from Mage Armor and/or Bracers of Armor, as well as with the shield bonus from Shield, and resistance bonus to saves being, well, a resistance bonus to saves)
Natural armor is utterly useless to me, as I don't enter the fray personally, and since I fly I'm rarely targeted by any attack at all; moreover, I often have Mirror Image and Blur cast upon me, so I definitely don't worry about attacks; finally, were the situation to turn really dire, I could simply toss a quickened Invisibility and Dimension Door out of the hell. Since the beginning of the game, the most important hit point loss I had was 21 on (now) 85, from a trap.
Bracers of Armor are unavailable, since there's nobody to craft them. Shield was not among the spells I picked, but it doesn't matter because, as I said, I didn't mind AC. Tylenol, I've often read your comments and highly regard you, but I'm sure you know as me that AC is the most unimportant thing a spellcaster should worry about if he doesn't want to be hit.

The resistance bonus is nifty, but at 13th level I'd like to increase it, don't you think?


If the scroll of Permanency is so useless to you (as in: you can't pay any caster, ever, the paltry sum it would take for them to cast See Invisibility on you; clearly Sorcerers exist in this world, after all), then sell it for the 10,000 gold it's worth (or whatever you can get out of that) and buy yourself something nice.
Item cannot be sold, as there aren't buyers. I'm happy about finding the scroll, but what annoys me is that to use it I must wait for this story arc to end (so at the moment it's completely useless), then set myself on the lookout for a spellcaster to cast me See invisibility, a task that depending on my DM could be hard.

I don't mind my fellow party members having magic items, I'm happy for them. I resent me not having items, be them rods, wands, cloaks, rings or whatever.

[Douglas]

The crafting has been made utterly impossible by the DM: each item requires a special quest to be crafted, to find "dedicated components" to craft it. And he made clear that the "dedicated components" would be nearly impossible to be found when I asked him what would I need to craft an item granting me a +5 to initiative: he just glared at me smiling sardonically.


The campaign is uncustomary. We are playing in a setting called Northlands, with some elements from Forgotten Realms (at the moment we should be on Toril, but in a nation ported from Northlands), in a definitely poor and low-level world: there aren't big cities around, and even if there were the DM fiercely opposes the concept of magic-mart (so there's no simply "going to town to buy a new magic weapon"); and even if he allowed them, he wouldn't have them selling anything but consummables; by the way, our finances are pretty low, so buying magic items, apart from scrolls and potions, is out of game - and even then, the lack of high level spellcasters heavily limits us on what's available.
So, how exactly did the magic items you found come to exist? If high level spellcasters are so rare and making magic items is so difficult even for the ones that do exist, then how the heck did this pile of magic items get made? Who made them, and why? If it's so difficult to make magic items, why would these unknown crafters have spent so much effort on items useful only for other people and so little on items for themselves?

Your DM's setting has logical inconsistencies that I'd be curious to see him explain.

[Engine]

If you're a Human Sorcerer, use the Favored Class bonus to get more spells known.
Pick Eagle's Splendor. Good, now you have +4 to Charisma when you need it. Maybe you could Extend it. Now your DCs are higher.

By the way. Two Fighters made their saves and one didn't?
Good, welcome to Battlefield Control 101, not all your enemies have to suck when you cast a spell, the important part is that at least someone sucks on your spells so the rest of the party have an easier time.
And if you feel that your enemies make their saves too many times, use spells that don't rely on saves or that force a save for more rounds.
Summoning spells, Sleet Storm, Excruciating Deformation, Black Tentacles, Fog Cloud and Solid Fog (the last one maybe on top of a Stinking Cloud), Enervation and so many others. Read the list, pick up spells accordingly.

You're a Sorcerer. You don't need items to be awesome.

[Cicciograna]

So, how exactly did the magic items you found come to exist? If high level spellcasters are so rare and making magic items is so difficult even for the ones that do exist, then how the heck did this pile of magic items get made? Who made them, and why? If it's so difficult to make magic items, why would these unknown crafters have spent so much effort on items useful only for other people and so little on items for themselves?

Your DM's setting has logical inconsistencies that I'd be curious to see him explain.

This, I don't know. The thing I know is that my friends' magic item were found, not buyed or crafted, found as hidden treasure in previous adventures; suffice to say that the handful of magic items we found last evening was in a treasury of an ancient elven city, captured by demons, who could not use the magic item theirselves because the city was protected by a semi-dormant mythal which prevented access to those creatures.

Some of the lesser weapons were found as loot, and specifically one of the weapons the paladin brandishes is only a temporary gift from the king of one of the largest countries (it's a +2 Holy Knight Lance). To have more powerful weapons they heavily relied on my Greater Magic Weapon spell, but obviously they lacked in special properties.


If you're a Human Sorcerer, use the Favored Class bonus to get more spells known.
Pick Eagle's Splendor. Good, now you have +4 to Charisma when you need it. Maybe you could Extend it. Now your DCs are higher.

By the way. Two Fighters made their saves and one didn't?
Good, welcome to Battlefield Control 101, not all your enemies have to suck when you cast a spell, the important part is that at least someone sucks on your spells so the rest of the party have an easier time.
And if you feel that your enemies make their saves too many times, use spells that don't rely on saves or that force a save for more rounds.
Summoning spells, Sleet Storm, Excruciating Deformation, Black Tentacles, Fog Cloud and Solid Fog (the last one maybe on top of a Stinking Cloud), Enervation and so many others. Read the list, pick up spells accordingly.

You're a Sorcerer. You don't need items to be awesome.
I'm not a Human, and by the way we use Core only (you're right, I didn't mention this previously, my fault), so the rule you're pointing at is not in force.

Extended Eagle Splendor is a good choice, but I didn't consider it before because I hoped that the DM would grant us a little more than what we have. How silly of me.

The spells you suggest are nice, the ones I have and try to use are the Black tentacles, Stinking Cloud and Enervation. I say try because often I had to turn them down because they affected my friends too, as the paladin, the rogue and, sometimes, the bard tend to close in melee, but that's the problem with all the battlefield control spell (Enervation is cool, though).

Finally, just for the sake of the math, here's the sum of my wealth:


+3 Natural Armor bonus (no space limitation) - 36000gp
+1 Resistance bonus to STs (no space limitation) - 2000gp
10 scrolls (various levels) - ~15000gp


The projected wealth for a 13th level character (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement) would be 140000gp.

[Psyren]

For example, last evening I cast Slow onto three 6th level fighters: a debuffing spell targeting the worst ST of my enemies. My DC for such a spell was 19, if I recall correctly, but the DM rolled a 17 and a 18 for two of the enemies: I admit that my DM is really, REALLY lucky, but I'd like to reach a point when, if supported by, say, a Cloak of Charisma or an Orange Ioun Stone, the luck of two 6th level opponents doesn't matter, and they simply fail their STs.


What about no-save spells? PF has plenty. You could have hit those fighters with Solid Fog, Sleet Storm or Black Tentacles for instance, and gotten a comparable effect to a slow spell.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Irrelevant. I was bound and with no magic items. Period.

Therein lies my point. The expectation wasn't that you'd have these items, but you did. Again, not entirely the actions of a homicidal DM. (I should hope, of course, that when you say "to cope with my lack of items, the DM gave me..." does NOT mean that this represents every item the party has handed your way between 9 and 13, since that is... Quite unsettling).


Natural armor is utterly useless to me, as I don't enter the fray personally, and since I fly I'm rarely targeted by any attack at all; moreover, I often have Mirror Image and Blur cast upon me, so I definitely don't worry about attacks; finally, were the situation to turn really dire, I could simply toss a quickened Invisibility and Dimension Door out of the hell. Since the beginning of the game, the most important hit point loss I had was 21 on (now) 85, from a trap.

See: least item-dependent member of the party. When you've got someone who's got everything, what do you give them?

I will say, though:


since I fly I'm rarely targeted by any attack at all

Why is this? If you're level 13, stronger monsters can be expected to also be flying, and larger quantities of weaker monsters (like a human army) can be expected to have archers, or spellcasters. Of course, these are also subverted by spells (Reflect Arrows is guaranteed to stop almost any arrow in a low-magic game, and, well, reverse it, to name a specific example; though general protections usually cover this before the need for specifics), but the point is they should be trying.


Tylenol, I've often read your comments and highly regard you

You lie. Everyone knows I'm a boorish lout and a simpleton. :smallbiggrin:


but I'm sure you know as me that AC is the most unimportant thing a spellcaster should worry about if he doesn't want to be hit.

Now, I don't know a whole lot about the newer Pathfinder splats, but when I played Pathfinder (as opposed to 3.P, heavy on the 3, light on the P), it was basically a restructuring of Core, and then, with the limited scope of a Core-only item list, flat numerical bonuses and charged/consumable items are pretty much all you've got coming to you, considering there's not a whole lot else on the market for sorcerers.

I guess, for that, the two things I need to ask are:
1) If your party has branched out of Core (which I'm not yet convinced it has, since every magic item, class, race and spell listed here is Core) what books/systems are available? Are 3.5 books available, or is it PF-only?

2) Just how poor/low-level ARE these people? (Just how hard would it be to find someone capable of casting a second-level spell, for instance?)

If the answer to these questions are "3.5 splats are available" and "they're low-level, but concentrated areas may have people, maybe even casters, up to 5th or 6th level", then you may find comfort in the E6 item list I just recently posted in Homebrew. It's 52 straight pages of items (Word document numbers) that one can make with a caster level of 6 or below (yellow requires an artificer, or 8th casting), and the forum version of the list can be sorted by caster level as well as price, so you can filter out all the "this town is too poor/low level for that" items. Hopefully there's still something worth taking for you when you do.


Item cannot be sold, as there aren't buyers. I'm happy about finding the scroll, but what annoys me is that to use it I must wait for this story arc to end (so at the moment it's completely useless), then set myself on the lookout for a spellcaster to cast me See invisibility, a task that depending on my DM could be hard.

Can you think of a useful spell on the Cleric list you'd like permanencied?

And would your DM object to my revised permanency list if so? :smallbiggrin:

[Engine]

I'm not a Human, and by the way we use Core only (you're right, I didn't mention this previously, my fault), so the rule you're pointing at is not in force.

Well, other boni aren't worth the choice, so if you're not Human stick with skill points of HPs (I suggest the latter).


Extended Eagle Splendor is a good choice, but I didn't consider it before because I hoped that the DM would grant us a little more than what we have. How silly of me.

It's always nice to have a buff to your main spellcasting stat even if your DM is generous with stat-boosting items. Part of being a good spellcaster is being prepared.


The spells you suggest are nice, the ones I have and try to use are the Black tentacles, Stinking Cloud and Enervation. I say try because often I had to turn them down because they affected my friends too, as the paladin, the rogue and, sometimes, the bard tend to close in melee, but that's the problem with all the battlefield control spell (Enervation is cool, though).

I know, I know. Summoning spells are nice, anyway. And you don't need to worry about your friends. Some good summons have spellcasting, so you could have access to more spells in a fight. Ok, you're right, having few magic items kinda sucks, but you don't really need them.

[Cicciograna]

Therein lies my point. The expectation wasn't that you'd have these items, but you did. Again, not entirely the actions of a homicidal DM. (I should hope, of course, that when you say "to cope with my lack of items, the DM gave me..." does NOT mean that this represents every item the party has handed your way between 9 and 13, since that is... Quite unsettling).
Wait, I never said that my DM is trying to kill me/my friends/the game. He never threw us challenges we couldn't manage. And, again, I'm having fun with him.

What I'm ranting about is that the magic items he gave me aren't the best I could hope for. I received a flat bonus to a stat I don't mind particularly, AC, which is akin to give a Barbarian a feature that grants a +15 on Disable Device checks: sure, the bonus is high, but chances are that the Barbarian never put ranks in DD, it's not the primary ability its built for and there's someone in the party that can disable better than him. Moreover, the feature would be worth 45000gp, which would be 45000gp subtracted from his WBL that he could reasonabily consider wasted.

Again, the resistance bonus is nice to have, but Cloaks of Resistance are among the cheapest items in the game, for what they do, so I would have hoped to get a better bonus one day or another (not to mention the fact that if I ever put my hands on such a Cloak, my built-in feature goes completely wasted and I can't even try, and, fail, to sell it back).

The scrolls are worthless, if they require a ST. Lowest caster level means that at this level everything will succeed.
However, now that I think about it there's only another scroll that could be useful, and that's Ethereal Jaunt. Yes, this is good.



See: least item-dependent member of the party. When you've got someone who's got everything, what do you give them?
Something to improve the things he will do, not something that improves things he will never do.



Now, I don't know a whole lot about the newer Pathfinder splats, but when I played Pathfinder (as opposed to 3.P, heavy on the 3, light on the P), it was basically a restructuring of Core, and then, with the limited scope of a Core-only item list, flat numerical bonuses and charged/consumable items are pretty much all you've got coming to you, considering there's not a whole lot else on the market for sorcerers.
Part of the problem probabily lies in this: there aren't really many useful items around, I'll admit it, but those that are actualy worth picking mean a lot. Consummables mean that after some encounters I don't have them anymore, so they're locally useful (and often not that much - see my previous consideration on STs), and wasting a standard action by casting a useless, or marginally useful scroll often is not the optimal thing to do in the context of high-level action economy.
OTOH static bonuses, are always nice to have...if they keep in line with the power level of the characters. A +1 bonus on STs at 13th level is a bit low, compared to the saves required by opponents at this level; some sort of ability enhancing item would be a nice addition to anyone; plus, there's a class of items that never hurts to have, such as Handy haversacks, Portable holes, Ioun stones, Crystal balls, and then Eternal wands, Staves (which in PF are fun again), Rings, Rods and many other things we don't have.


I guess, for that, the two things I need to ask are:
1) If your party has branched out of Core (which I'm not yet convinced it has, since every magic item, class, race and spell listed here is Core) what books/systems are available? Are 3.5 books available, or is it PF-only?
PF Core only.


2) Just how poor/low-level ARE these people? (Just how hard would it be to find someone capable of casting a second-level spell, for instance?)
There are 5th level casters in the game, so in the future I'll be able to find someone to cast me See invisibility. What pisses me off is that this won't happen now, won't happen next session, won't happen in the near future, because the story arc we are in brings us far fro such commodities: so what I have, is a conspicuous piece of my treasure, one of the few treasures I have had since the beginning of the game, which cannot be used right now, and won't be for a good deal of time: this is annoying at best.


"they're low-level, but concentrated areas may have people, maybe even casters, up to 5th or 6th level", then you may find comfort in the E6 item list I just recently posted in Homebrew. It's 52 straight pages of items (Word document numbers) that one can make with a caster level of 6 or below (yellow requires an artificer, or 8th casting), and the forum version of the list can be sorted by caster level as well as price, so you can filter out all the "this town is too poor/low level for that" items. Hopefully there's still something worth taking for you when you do.
And again, no magic-mart, no going to a Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Artificier (no 3.5) or whatever telling him "Hey, I've got 20000gp to burn, craft me this!", the magic items we have are those we find or loot from the occasional boss who has them. Finally there's the "dedicated materials" question. Who provides such materials? Not them.



Can you think of a useful spell on the Cleric list you'd like permanencied?

And would your DM object to my revised permanency list if so? :smallbiggrin:
I'd love to have an expanded Permanency list, but my DM won't allow it.


I know, I know. Summoning spells are nice, anyway. And you don't need to worry about your friends. Some good summons have spellcasting, so you could have access to more spells in a fight. Ok, you're right, having few magic items kinda sucks, but you don't really need them.
Yes, summonings are nice, but the casting time is a bt a pain in the back. However, I've just taken Summon Monster VI, so I can punch a little more oomph on the battlefield.

[CTrees]

My normal solution to Pathfinder with limited items (in fact, my normal solution to too many PF problems) would be Synthesist Summoner. Unfortunately... you're core only.

Man I hate core only...

Um... I don't even know what core targets of planar binding have reasonable spell casting (as opposed to SLAs), so I don't know how well I can help, there.

Actually, idea! is the Bestiary 2 in play? That's often treated differently. If so, Mercanes (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/mercane) are valid targets of Lesser Planar Binding. Their whole deal is trading in magic items - you should be able to call one and get some trade going with a different plane (something mercanes should LOVE).

[Psyren]

What about no-save spells? PF has plenty. You could have hit those fighters with Solid Fog, Sleet Storm or Black Tentacles for instance, and gotten a comparable effect to a slow spell.

Reposting this suggestion - all three spells are core. Until you are allowed gear to make your saving throw spells more attractive, rely on summons and no-save spells like these. You can drop a solid fog between you and the enemy to protect yourself while you cast a slower summoning spell.

[Crasical]

:smalltongue: I'm in a game running the World's Largest Dungeon right now. We've all just hit 5th level, so everyone should have 9k worth of magic items, right? NOPE. So far, we have found:

A Dagger of Venom (Lost, player who had it left the party and DM ruled he took it with them)
A Ring of Warmth that glowed uncontrollably (Lost, see above)
A +1 Spell-storing Shortsword
A Wand of Color Spray

So we've lost an 8k gold item and what I estimate was probably a 2500 gold item, and have an 8k gold item, and a 750 gold wand. Split among a party of seven? We are 43750 gold short of where we should be.

Sometimes the treasure floweth not plentifully. It happens. So far, we're compensating, even though we've been sickened, cursed, set on fire, terrified and pelted with slingstones. Also mauled by an owlbear. But we soldier on, you know?

[mikau013]

I was playing an artificer a while ago in a game once, played from lvl 6-12 (thinking it would get better)
This was my gear list at lvl 12:
+1 weapon
+1 to all resistances cloak
+2 amulet of health

Some minor scrolls of things like delay poison.

Then someone retired his old pc and made a new one and got full wbl to start his char........

[Mystify]

What items will boost your saves? Stat boosting items, sure. But you could retrain a spell to eagle's charisma if need be, an in any case its only a +3 to the DC at max. Nice, but hardly the difference between effective and not. Esp. since this also implies that enemies won't have the +5 cloaks of resistance.

[Seerow]

You're playing a tier 2 in a party of tier4s. You're the only person who can reliably buff yourself and have any sort of mobility without magic items. They need the gear about 10x more than you do.

[CTrees]

Then someone retired his old pc and made a new one and got full wbl to start his char........

Confession time: In frustratingly low loot games, I've gotten myself killed in order to come back with a new character with normal WBL.

[Mystify]

Confession time: In frustratingly low loot games, I've gotten myself killed in order to come back with a new character with normal WBL.

Generally you are supposed to bring in the character with wealth equal to the party. WBL works as a good rule of thumb if you are following it, but if you are wildly divergent like that it is not appropriate.

[Urpriest]

You're high enough level for plane shift, and there are plenty of outsiders whose societies by default include magic marts.

[Douglas]

Generally you are supposed to bring in the character with wealth equal to the party. WBL works as a good rule of thumb if you are following it, but if you are wildly divergent like that it is not appropriate.
There are DMs who know about WBL and think they should use it - and even do use it for generating new characters - but haven't made the connection/done the math between the WBL table and the quantity of loot they should be giving the party during play. CTrees was apparently playing with such a DM.

There are other DMs who get the quantity of loot right to match WBL but, typically because they dislike "magicmarts", force their players to make do with whatever they happen to find in play, yet at the same time allow perfect player customization and choice for equipping new characters. This disconnect can also give incentive for deliberate character suicide on occasion.

Both of these mistakes of inconsistency seem distressingly common from the various anecdotes I've heard over the years.

[Slipperychicken]

As Ur-Priest said, pick up Plane Shift, and also Greater Teleport next level. Go to a magic-mart plane/metropolis for commercial needs. Also cuts travel time quite a bit.


Use the Spellcasting Services rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spellcastingAndServices) for some good downtime cash (sell those extra slots, on whichever plane is best). You could always bring up the rules for how much a town will buy/sell, so he'll have a hard time blocking it.

[Dr_S]

LOL! OP your rant reminds me of our game last night (except I wasn't going to rant about it, but it can be kind of frustrating)

We're playing a "no healing" game, well it's turned into a "low healing" campaign, but the only person in our group with healing spells has used them because he's a ranger and only prepares 1 cure light per day... anywho, I being a sorcerer who got blasted by 2 fireballs in the previous battle was in single digit hp (or so I think, the DM actually tracks our health and gives us estimates about how we're feeling) and there were 2 buildings we thought might have what we're looking for across the street from each other. Essentially KNOWING there was a fight in one of them, they decided "it's best not to get ambushed" and charged into the building. I was way towards the back, heard a fireball go off ahead and panicked (this is the quick version of the story)

So they beat the easy encounter that was a follow up to a really tough encounter and find the treasure room that both had been guarding (and in reality was sort of a "this is the end of the dungeon" type room), me I found a huge library, which RP wise was the greatest thing ever, each of them got 1 or 2 magic items and 6 healing potions, we think there's a dragon coming soon so everyone's in a bit of a hurry. I fail my UMD and perception checks with several consecutive bad rolls, the party (including the 2 people who were over half health) down all the health potions. Then they flee, they send the warrior in to grab me, which with my 2 str he does easily (as in -4 modifier yes) and drags me out of the library and sprints to catch up with the party, what happens along the way? the party managed to sneak away successfully with all their magic loot, while the guy carrying me made so much noise we got spotted, so everyone else is decked out with magic loot and healed to some degree, and I would have been safe in the library (where I never found any books at all because it was so vast I couldn't find a topic of interest) but instead we're fighting a mob of dudes.

So I being down to 2 spells (1 first, 1 second) and minimal hp in a "low healing" campaign expect to die in the next fight.

So I can understand the frustration. I'm certainly not threatening to quit the group over it, but 4-5 sessions and I'm the only one not to receive anything because the one moment I split off from the group they found a treasure horde. (I'm certainly not the only one who's wandered off on their own either, just bad timing) and the party is going to get me killed, while I had the library set up with alarm so I could have hidden in there and maybe even rested if I was lucky.

[Slipperychicken]

I'm the only one not to receive anything because the one moment I split off from the group they found a treasure horde.

This is why you (assuming your party is trustworthy) all agree beforehand to pool all the loot and split it evenly after you get back to town.

[Marnath]

For example, last evening I cast Slow onto three 6th level fighters: a debuffing spell targeting the worst ST of my enemies. My DC for such a spell was 19, if I recall correctly, but the DM rolled a 17 and a 18 for two of the enemies: I admit that my DM is really, REALLY lucky, but I'd like to reach a point when, if supported by, say, a Cloak of Charisma or an Orange Ioun Stone, the luck of two 6th level opponents doesn't matter, and they simply fail their STs.

Forgive me if I'm being dim, but shouldn't both of those guys have failed their saving throw? You have to meet or exceed a DC to pass it.:smallconfused:

[Cicciograna]

Forgive me if I'm being dim, but shouldn't both of those guys have failed their saving throw? You have to meet or exceed a DC to pass it.:smallconfused:

Ah, you're right, I was not clear. 17 and 18 on the dice roll.

[Dr_S]

This is why you (assuming your party is trustworthy) all agree beforehand to pool all the loot and split it evenly after you get back to town.

Yeah, I won't end up getting any of it, my group tends to look out for their own interests and we split loot by calling dibs and then compromising if 2 people call dibs... one of those health potions would have been nice (3d8+5 healing not small ones) but the team forgot about me >.<

Especially the party wizard who took all the scrolls despite failing any checks to identify them because the witch was unconscious (and no one was aiding her) and I was in another room, and no one else in the somewhat large party cares about scrolls...

I'm trying not to play it that way, but my group tends to be very self serving and distrustful (there's a guy who can cast the detect [align] spells at will and anytime we meet someone he cycles through until he's narrowed down their exact alignment.)

at the moment we didn't calculate the exact weight, but we think I'm at a heavy load with a bedroll, a wand of charm person, a ring of natural armor, and a set of notebooks and writing utensils. So maybe I don't need more stuff :P

[CTrees]

I'm trying not to play it that way, but my group tends to be very self serving and distrustful (there's a guy who can cast the detect [align] spells at will and anytime we meet someone he cycles through until he's narrowed down their exact alignment.)

This sort of thing always makes me wonder how the player would react to NPCs that are either true neutral, have Nondetection/Undetectable Alignment up, have two levels of Master Spy, etc. I mean, if I had someone in my group starting the detect roulette, I'd let it go, but eventually throw in some really paranoid but obviously not TN NPC for them to interact with, just to see what would happen.

[Slipperychicken]

at the moment we didn't calculate the exact weight, but we think I'm at a heavy load with a bedroll, a wand of charm person, a ring of natural armor, and a set of notebooks and writing utensils. So maybe I don't need more stuff :P

You need a Bag of Holding :smalltongue:

[mikau013]

You need a Bag of Holding :smalltongue:

Actually if wearing nothing but a bag of holding type 1, with 2 strength you're already at a heavy load. And that is the lightest bag of holding :smalltongue:

Handy haversack might work though

[Dr_S]

Actually if wearing nothing but a bag of holding type 1, with 2 strength you're already at a heavy load. And that is the lightest bag of holding :smalltongue:

Handy haversack might work though

Yes we were discussing this after the game... >.<

so I suppose even if I'd found my books in the library I'd not have been able to keep them.

are there spells that would reduce the weight of something? perhaps permanency-able? ultralight bag of holding?

As for the detect alignments... He can detect all 4 so I'm assuming if their alignment is blocked he presumes true neutral?

[Rubik]

Yes we were discussing this after the game... >.<

so I suppose even if I'd found my books in the library I'd not have been able to keep them.

are there spells that would reduce the weight of something? perhaps permanency-able? ultralight bag of holding?

As for the detect alignments... He can detect all 4 so I'm assuming if their alignment is blocked he presumes true neutral?One of the teeth in Tome of Magic allows you to treat heavy loads as light loads. There's also an armor property in the MIC that lets you treat your medium load as a light load.

If you could get your hands on a scroll of Polymorph Any Object you could always turn yourself into an orc.

[Jornophelanthas]

@Dr_S:
So, let me get this straight. You play in a game with the following "features":

- DM refuses to give you exact information on how serious your wounds are.
- You have STR 2 and always suffer from heavy load (i.e. reduced speed and no DEX to AC).
- Players do not share loot with each other.
- Players do not give healing to the group member who needs it most, in a setting with little-to-no healing available.
- The DM did not let you find anything in the library before one of the other players forcefully dragged you out.

Let me ask you a few questions.
- Are you having fun in this game?
- The other characters do not behave like friends to your sorcerer. How do the other players (and the DM) treat you, OOC, at the table?
- Does your character have any motivation to stay with this group of other characters?
- Have you talked to your DM and/or the other players about your concerns?
- Would playing a different character remedy the problem? (Because if you expect your sorcerer to die, perhaps some good might come of it.)

[Kaeso]

I'm not your DM and I don't know how your DM works, but (especially at 13th level) there might be a rationale behind his actions. Let's look at the other party members. They are: a rogue (tier 4), a ranger (tier 4), a bard (tier 3) and a paladin (tier 5). Your party is pretty weak, it seems. Imagine if your character got magic items according to the WBL table, he'd be without a shred of a doubt powerful enough to solo encounters that the party would need every single member for before you joined them. I say that, considering you're playing the most powerful character in the group, your DM is perfectly justified in his conservativeness in sorcerer-friendly magic items.

[Brock Samson]

Shrink Item - 3rd level spell that shrinks things to 1 / 16th their normal size and like 1 / 4,000th their normal weight.

Tenser's Floating disk - carries it for you

Polymorph - Now you're strong for a little while

Scroll of Polymorph Any Object - Now you're stronger forever

And hey, don't forget that if you DO have access to polymorph, every time you use it you heal as if you slept a night! Not a good use for the spell, but it's there!

[Engine]

at the moment we didn't calculate the exact weight, but we think I'm at a heavy load with a bedroll, a wand of charm person, a ring of natural armor, and a set of notebooks and writing utensils. So maybe I don't need more stuff :P

Muleback Cords (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/muleback-cords) are cheap. Even with Strength 2 you'll go to Strength 10 for carrying purposes, so you should be fine with your current load.

[Dr_S]

@Dr_S:
So, let me get this straight. You play in a game with the following "features":

- DM refuses to give you exact information on how serious your wounds are. Actually I like this, it make the party a lot less likely to gamble with their lives...
- You have STR 2 and always suffer from heavy load (i.e. reduced speed and no DEX to AC). Well isn't it my fault for keeping the 4 I rolled then picking a race that has a -2?
- Players do not share loot with each other. More like they want to get a look at everything first before so they can be sure they're not getting ripped off.
- Players do not give healing to the group member who needs it most, in a setting with little-to-no healing available. I wasn't in the room, they weren't sure where I was character wise. There were enough potions for one each for them.
- The DM did not let you find anything in the library before one of the other players forcefully dragged you out. He gave me 6 rolls (3 perception 3 UMD) with a DC I think of 15 on the perceptions and 20 on the UMDs I rolled in order, 5,2,2,3,4 for a total of 18 on my highest UMD... it's not like he just said "you find nothing sucks to be you"

Let me ask you a few questions.
- Are you having fun in this game? Yes
- The other characters do not behave like friends to your sorcerer. How do the other players (and the DM) treat you, OOC, at the table? Their behavior in character does not reflect their behavior at the table.
- Does your character have any motivation to stay with this group of other characters? For the time being safety is my only motivation
- Have you talked to your DM and/or the other players about your concerns? I didn't mean to come off sounding all complain-y I mean we have one session that doesn't go my way and even then it's to some degree (but not completely) my fault I'll get over it.
- Would playing a different character remedy the problem? (Because if you expect your sorcerer to die, perhaps some good might come of it.) I somehow doubt it would change anything.

oh I can't reply entirely within a quote box...

[Dr_S]

Muleback Cords (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/muleback-cords) are cheap. Even with Strength 2 you'll go to Strength 10 for carrying purposes, so you should be fine with your current load.

nice for the sake of the game I bet the DM'd likely just "coincidentally" roll this in our next treasure...