Can't hit that [3.P]

[Strormer]

Right, so this is the first time I've DM'ed Pathfinder, though I've DM'ed 3.5 a few times, and I'm having a strange problem. The party is five characters between levels 2 and 3 with one DMPC to back them up that is a level 3 rogue skillmonkey and more or less a noncombatant if he can help it.

The party has taken on a good couple fights that were supposed to be tough as hell and come out on top. (CR 8 at level 2 and CR 5 at level 3) Last night I put them up against a half dozen CR 1/2 bandits so that they could feel tough again. They couldn't hit anything. The bandits had AC 17 and the party consistently couldn't hit them with anything. They had this problem with a few other fights that were easily their level or lower also, though this is the best example I had since it happened last night.

Am I doing something wrong here? I've never had this problem. The parties I DM'ed before were consistently hitting AC 20+ every session. Is this something Pathfinder did that I don't know about or are they just that unlucky?

[Fineous Orlon]

The bandits AC is too high. Figure your party's average attack bonus, and make sure they can hit half the time [with a roll of 10 or 11]. This will allow the beatsticks to shine in an encounter against CR 1/2 targets, but the other characters can also hit, especially if their spells are exhausted or inappropriate.

Also, what is the average AC of the party? A gimme encounter should not have an average higher AC than the party.

Basically, either by equipment given to the bandits or by the ability scores of the bandits or by the quantity of bandits, you pumped the encounter up higher than you expected.

Failing that, figure out what those well-equipped or otherwise too-elite bandits would do with a bunch of captives....

[Need_A_Life]

Depends on how much they powergame.

If a target is hit on an 11 (or fail a save against the PC when rolling 11), they are a speed bump.
+5 for a challenge.
-5 for a beatdown.

If players use status effects effectively, make use of flanking, AoOs, combat maneuvers when appropriate and so on, then they'll be able to take on much more powerful opponents than otherwise.
If they don't, then they need raw power.

[Particle_Man]

Were the players just unlucky with dice rolls?

[Doug Lampert]

The bandits had AC 17 and the party consistently couldn't hit them with anything.

PF gives bigger numbers, it's how they "improved" the melee classes.
[That and giving the fighter ~16% more feats and splitting many of the core feats he wants in two so he needs closer to double while the casters get ~40% more feats and their feats are if anything better than core.]

AC 17 should in theory be less significant in PF than in 3.x. Humans can start with 20 strength for example in PF.

The 8 strength wizard with a dagger has +0. (Hits 20%)

The 14 strength cleric with a mace has +3. (Hits 35%)

The 18 dex rogue with a dagger has +5 or +6. (Hits 45-50%, probably more with flanking)
[Note that in 3.x a level 2 rogue won't have weapon finesse because he doesn't qualify at level 1. PF reputedly fixed this.]

The raging barbarian has +10. (Hits 70%)

So everyone but dedicated melee is likely to be missing more than half the time, but dedicated melee and flanking rogues (assuming some of that 17 AC is dex bonus) should be hitting fairly often.

That's not trivial AC, 3.5 that's about typical for CR 5 or so. But they should be hitting much of the time.

[Strormer]

The bandits were human warrior 2's as per the GMG with (+3 armor, +2 dex, +1 dodge against one opponent, and +1 bucker shield) So AC against most of the party was 16 and the party was only hitting every third or forth attack. Some bad rolls, but I was more concerned with if I was doing something mean to them without knowing it. I guess I'll just nerf dex for a while until they start getting more magic about them (bonus to hit). Thanks guys.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

dont feel bad, my friend was playing a lvl 7 fighter up against a CR 1/2 skeleton took him 25 rnd to win.

[Averis Vol]

dont feel bad, my friend was playing a lvl 7 fighter up against a CR 1/2 skeleton took him 25 rnd to win.

Warriors of all stripes weep to hear this. but i guess all that matters is he/she came out on top i guess.

[Particle_Man]

There was an old Dragonmirth cartoon whose tag line was "That was one tough pig" and showed adventurers in various stages of batterment vs. a pig that was finally brought low.

[DrDeth]

Well, first- dump the DMPC, esp in a five PC party. Trust me on this.

Next- what are the builds? We can’t tell you what was wrong with the mooks unless you tell us what’s with the PC’s. I mean, a group of un-optimized Bards, Dinviners and Monks might have problems with a housecat.

[ericgrau]

16 str, +2 racial, +4 rage = 22 strength
+6 str modifier, 1 weapon focus, 3 BAB, masterwork weapon = 11 AB => 75% hits against AC 17.

Your new party probably doesn't optimize as well as the last one so you need to go easier on them. Consider another seemingly normal but less than optimal scenario. Each individual bonus doesn't seem like much but it really adds up:

14 str, medium BAB class
+2 str modifier, 2 BAB, masterwork weapon => 5 AB => 45% hits against AC 17