Feedback from forum threads to plot

[Shreav]

Comic #844 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html) brought to mind something I've been considering for a while. I wonder about the extent to which people's reactions, comments and predictions on the forums affect Rich's decisions on content for near-future comics.

Obviously the broad plot outline is unique to Rich (that's why we all come here, after all), but it seems plausible to imagine that there is also some feedback occurring. #844 struck me as a near-perfect example of what I'm talking about: While it's entirely possible that Rich had planned this particular comic out fully before publishing #841 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0841.html), it looks like a response to the 841 discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233979) (among other threads dedicated to the idea, like this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234508)) where people suggested that Durkon ought to raise some of the Draketooth clan. There are plenty of other examples, but being the most recent, that one leaps out at me.

I want to stress that I don't think this is a bad thing. Indeed, I consider it a Good Thing (tm): it helps Rich ultimately create a story with fewer plot holes and helps the truly dedicated readers feel like they're contributing because, in aggregate, they really are.

What do you all think? Am I imagining it?

[NerfTW]

I think you're just misinterpreting. That instance would have been a major plot hole if not addressed. It wasn't so much a response to the specific forum theories as something that he knew the average reader would be thinking.

The forums are HUGE. Almost every theory is going to come up. A good writer makes sure that "Hey why aren't they doing this?" situations are kept to a minimum, and that requires expository dialogue and scenes. The odds of multiple people posting the same theory that the author thought of are practically 100%.

While he's stated he doesn't concern himself with minutia, he obviously needs to make sure major questions are answered.

[ti'esar]

A lot of cases of Rich supposedly filling in plot holes probably aren't really - for instance, here raising the Draketooths was simply a logical decision on the Order's part that would have to be addressed at some point. To take an older example, I doubt that the opening of 353 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html) was added in response to fans saying "Control Weather can't do that". I think most of the time, these "responses" are planned in advance.

Personally, what really struck me as a reference to the forums wasn't that; it was Roy saying "let's forget the crazy [alignment] talk and focus on what we know". It's certainly possible that Rich knows by now how much his fanbase likes to have moral debates, but that did strike me more as a line put in to reference (and make fun of) the current crop of not-quite-but-certainly-in-spirit "morally justified" threads.

[Dwy]

I believe Word of God on this is:

"Q: Wouldn.t it be cool if X, Y, and Z happened? You should totally do that.

A: Thanks, but I prefer to create my own plots. In fact, I try not to read anything where people suggest upcoming plot ideas because I hate it when people guess what is going to happen. I feel the uncontrollable urge to change what happens, just to prove them wrong. Petty? Probably.

Q: Hey, you used my idea I posted! Cool!

A: No, I didn.t. Even if your idea that you posted completely matches what eventually happened, you can be sure I was not inspired by your post. Largely because I probably didn.t read it (see above question)."

Copied from here. (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq1)

Should answer the question just fine. Anything more than that would be speculation on our part.

[Shreav]

I believe Word of God on this is:

[snip]

A link to the FAQ (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html)



Well, there you go. Quick, easy and directly answered. Thanks.

[NerfTW]

The FAQ is hopelessly out of date, btw.

[Benjuri]

That particular q&a is not though. Rich has restated numerous times throughout the years. He even stopped reading the forums for a while starting the strip before Pompey's introduction because he was tired of people proclaiming that "I was right/The Giant used my idea/The Giant stole my idea/etc."

He doesn't use ideas from the forums and he very, very rarely responds to them. Period.

[martianmister]

Resurrecting them is the most logical and predictable consequence. Rich doesn't need forum feedback for something trivial like that.

Only instance where I remember/believe feedback's effecting comic is first panel of strip 36. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0036.html)

[FujinAkari]

Resurrecting them is the most logical and predictable consequence. Rich doesn't need forum feedback for something trivial like that.

Only instance where I remember/believe feedback's effecting comic is first panel of strip 36. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0036.html)

How was that affected by the forums?

The only ones I know of were the arrow (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0436.html) and the possibly the Oracle's Alternate Prophesies

[Valyrian]

Wasn't Tsukiko considering to raise Miko and then dropping the subject also a reference to forum discussions that she might come back in some undead form?

I think the Giant does this occasionally with minor jokes or references, but I really doubt he'd change actual plot development just because of something written in the forums.

[NerfTW]

That particular q&a is not though. Rich has restated numerous times throughout the years. He even stopped reading the forums for a while starting the strip before Pompey's introduction because he was tired of people proclaiming that "I was right/The Giant used my idea/The Giant stole my idea/etc."

He doesn't use ideas from the forums and he very, very rarely responds to them. Period.

And the Pompey introduction was over five years ago. So that's not really a good example. And his more recent statements are that he has never altered a plotline for that reason.

[Smolder]

My impression was that #843 was specifically aimed at ending certain forum debates...


I really thought that last comic would end this debate

And that #844 may have been a joke at the expense of other forum debates.

[hawkofthenorth]

Wasn't Tsukiko considering to raise Miko and then dropping the subject also a reference to forum discussions that she might come back in some undead form?


Really? It wasn't just that Miko had a major role in the comic, had just been corpsed, and was left on a field with the villains, almost all of whom are known to have undead-raising abilities? It wasn't a foregone conclusion that there would be speculation on the matter which made for a good joke?

[Benjuri]

My impression was that #843 was specifically aimed at ending certain forum debates...

And that #844 may have been a joke at the expense of other forum debates.
Just because Rich is aware of a debate doesn't mean the strip is aimed at nixing it. It was a major revelation that the Familcide killed the Drakentooths and it narratively follows that there would be exposition on how in case someone didn't pick up on it, especially those who don't play DnD. Rich was just commenting that he thought said exposition would have ended the debate about how the spell works, since it was explained.

[ti'esar]

Come to think of it, this line sums it up best:


A good writer makes sure that "Hey why aren't they doing this?" situations are kept to a minimum, and that requires expository dialogue and scenes..

It's not that Rich is responding to the forums; it's that he's writing out explanations to potential problems that the forums would likely notice right away. The forums have a tendency to think about things one strip at a time, whereas Rich probably plans (in detail, that is) several strips ahead.

[Shreav]

It's not that Rich is responding to the forums; it's that he's writing out explanations to potential problems that the forums would likely notice right away. The forums have a tendency to think about things one strip at a time, whereas Rich probably plans (in detail, that is) several strips ahead.

I wholeheartedly agree. The point of my creating this thread was (originally) to explore the idea that since (a) nobody is perfect, including totally-awesome webcomic writers; and (b) the serial nature of the comic lends itself on the forums to intense speculation and debate, the opportunity exists for Rich to supplement his plans with updates based on that speculation before he writes the subsequent comics.

Given the FAQ (however out-of-date it may be), I'm inclined now to lean towards the idea that he almost never makes use of the forums this way, but since he does dabble in forum life on occasion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220195), to my mind it is only an "almost never" and not a "never".

Rich, if you happen to read this: At some point in the distant future, after you've finished the whole comic, it'd be great to read some of your "meta" thoughts on the comic. The way you planned it out, the hows and whys of any adjustments you made to the story as you went along, the ideas you wanted to put across, etc.

[RMS Oceanic]

I think my favourite "forum inspired comic" is #436. You see, at this time every course of action Belkar took was speculated to fulfil his prophecy from the Oracle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) about killing one of several people. So when he thwarts an assassination attempt on Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html), it was wildly speculated the poison arrow the assassin accidentally fired off would kill one of Belkar's prophecised targets.

Not so much. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0436.html) :smalltongue:

[Palthera]

I wholeheartedly agree. The point of my creating this thread was (originally) to explore the idea that since (a) nobody is perfect, including totally-awesome webcomic writers; and (b) the serial nature of the comic lends itself on the forums to intense speculation and debate, the opportunity exists for Rich to supplement his plans with updates based on that speculation before he writes the subsequent comics.

Given the FAQ (however out-of-date it may be), I'm inclined now to lean towards the idea that he almost never makes use of the forums this way, but since he does dabble in forum life on occasion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220195), to my mind it is only an "almost never" and not a "never".

Rich, if you happen to read this: At some point in the distant future, after you've finished the whole comic, it'd be great to read some of your "meta" thoughts on the comic. The way you planned it out, the hows and whys of any adjustments you made to the story as you went along, the ideas you wanted to put across, etc.

He does a lot of this in the author commentary in the books.

[MyNameIsSecret]

I think my favourite "forum inspired comic" is #436. You see, at this time every course of action Belkar took was speculated to fulfil his prophecy from the Oracle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) about killing one of several people. So when he thwarts an assassination attempt on Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html), it was wildly speculated the poison arrow the assassin accidentally fired off would kill one of Belkar's prophecised targets.

Not so much. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0436.html) :smalltongue:

Ha ha, I never noticed. It misses Roy, then Miko, then bounces off V's magical protection - I was always wondered why he put that little scene in. Neat...

[martianmister]

How was that affected by the forums?

There was a decry in the forums against strip 35 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0035.html). It was the first controversial strip.

[Shreav]

He does a lot of this in the author commentary in the books.

Excellent! Since I've ordered a bunch of them through the Kickstarter drive, I'll dive into them when they make it over here.

[Goosefarble]

I read somewhere (or heard on a podcast or something) that Rich's jokes about reactions and theories about the comics are, more often than not, his expectations of what reactions will be like. Sort of nipping the crazy fan theories in the bud before they can bloom. Like the whole "Is Orrin Draketooth's daughter Haley?" thing which he specifically said "no, she isn't" to before he even posted the strip.

And even that didn't stop some stupid theories about her being Haley.

[Sunken Valley]

Can't find it in the comments index, but Rich said he no longer cares if the fans predict his story because his fan base is massive. The one time he edited content for fans was the New Year's eve arc, which was felt to drag. Strips were cut (grand total of 6, all of which can be found in War and XP's).

[maximus25]

I think my favourite "forum inspired comic" is #436. You see, at this time every course of action Belkar took was speculated to fulfil his prophecy from the Oracle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) about killing one of several people. So when he thwarts an assassination attempt on Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html), it was wildly speculated the poison arrow the assassin accidentally fired off would kill one of Belkar's prophecised targets.

Not so much. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0436.html) :smalltongue:

I just noticed in the panel in which said thwarting happens, Belkar says "Can I say yes stongly enough?" strongly*

[Valyrian]

Really? It wasn't just that Miko had a major role in the comic, had just been corpsed, and was left on a field with the villains, almost all of whom are known to have undead-raising abilities? It wasn't a foregone conclusion that there would be speculation on the matter which made for a good joke?
Your unnecessary sarcasm aside, I don't know. I wasn't reading the forum when I first read that strip, but the way it was pulled off (especially Tsukiko's speculation on the kind of resulting undead and the "it wouldn't have been all that powerful" line) created the impression it was directly aimed at fandom speculation. If the Giant actually read this kind of speculation or simply anticipated it is a moot point there, imo.

[Harr]

Anybody who has ever played D&D even a couple times would instantly think of Speak With Dead in that situation. It's basically the default blind-reflex reaction for an adventurer who finds a mysterious situation with corpses in it.

For Rich to need to read the forums to think of doing that is so unnecessary, you could actually say that had he NOT done that, it could be taken as proof that he purposely didn't do it in order to prove the forum wrong or to break the cliche, as it were.

[dps]

I think the Giant does this occasionally with minor jokes or references, but I really doubt he'd change actual plot development just because of something written in the forums.

Bingo. And the minor jokes that result are usually ones that mildly poke fun at us forumites and our theories.