Dolphin Brains

[Riverdance]

The thought is commonly held that we humans have the most advanced brains on the planet; that our brains are the peak of evolution. Here is some evidence which might point to the contrary.
As we can see in the picture, a monkey's brain has much fewer folds than a humans, and a rat's has none at all. Interestingly enough, the amount of folding in a species brain is thought to be a rough measure of intelligence. Now look at the dolphin's brain. What might that mean?
http://pubpages.unh.edu/~jel/images/comp_brain_size.JPG

[Spiryt]

If those are to scale, they still have somehow small brains compared to overal size, though.

[Grinner]

So long, and thanks for all the fish!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojydNb3Lrrs)

Edit: On a more serious note, it may indicate a higher capacity for reasoning, but they still lack the one thing that has elevated humans so high.

Thumbs.

[Themrys]

It might mean that a dolphin's brain has to be pretty complicated to enable the dolphin to be awake all the time. (Mammals that live in the water have the problem that they would drown if they would really sleep, so they can't do that)

Do you have pictures of the brain of a seal or a bat, or a whale?

I doubt dolphins are more intelligent than humans if intelligence is measured with human methods.

[golentan]

It might mean that a dolphin's brain has to be pretty complicated to enable the dolphin to be awake all the time. (Mammals that live in the water have the problem that they would drown if they would really sleep, so they can't do that)

Do you have pictures of the brain of a seal or a bat, or a whale?

I doubt dolphins are more intelligent than humans if intelligence is measured with human methods.

One might point out that human methods are inherently biased towards measuring the things humans are good at. And that humans are a bunch of tailless monkey hacks with congenital tendency towards madness, numerous physical design flaws, and a mind so primitive that it took about 2000 years after the initial invention a steam powered motor to realize that it might be more valuable than a toy.

If, say, one where a bitter nonhuman who'd spent several thousand years trapped with a bunch of gibbering warmongering primitives who generally consider any math more complicated than division to be the realm of academics.

[Ravens_cry]

Hero's engine, for the needs of the time, WAS a toy. It made motion, but it was low torque, while the needs of the time was something with high torque. WHen a practical steam engine was developed, it was nothing like Hero's work.
For something so flawed, we have spread across the planet, been by far the most numerous large animal, and may very well be on the cusp of spreading out into the soalr system, perhaps even the universe.
Flawed?
Of course, very much so.
Mad? A little, maybe even in a lot.
But a success story nonetheless.
You're just mad because we cheat.:smallbiggrin:

[Traab]

Dolphin brains have to be large to contain the sheer mass of their homicidal rage and tendency to rape the crap out of anything they see.

[Ravens_cry]

Dolphin brains have to be large to contain the sheer mass of their homicidal rage and tendency to rape the crap out of anything they see.
That, and only half their brain is awake at once.

[Traab]

That, and only half their brain is awake at once.

The half thats asleep contains the moral compass.

[Anxe]

Do you have pictures of the brain of a seal or a bat, or a whale?

Quick Google Search

Seal
http://brainmuseum.org/specimens/pinnipedia/harborseal/brain/Harborseal6clr.jpg
Other Seal
http://brainmuseum.org/specimens/pinnipedia/northfurseal/brain/Northfurseal6clr.jpg
Whale
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/51/137379302_50bdd4de51.jpg
More Land Mammals
http://images.suite101.com/393995_com_brainsize.jpg

Couldn't find a bat brain easily. Sorry.

[golentan]

Hero's engine, for the needs of the time, WAS a toy. It made motion, but it was low torque, while the needs of the time was something with high torque. WHen a practical steam engine was developed, it was nothing like Hero's work.
For something so flawed, we have spread across the planet, been by far the most numerous large animal, and may very well be on the cusp of spreading out into the soalr system, perhaps even the universe.
Flawed?
Of course, very much so.
Mad? A little, maybe even in a lot.
But a success story nonetheless.
You're just mad because we cheat.:smallbiggrin:

I'm mad because you cheat poorly, and for the wrong reasons. And you're only a success story by the standards of animals: you've outbred the other critters and don't think the die off when you run out of resources (phosphorous, oil, functional antibiotics) will be too bad.

As for the real people, your entire recorded history, your entire mayfly empire has lasted less time the "contemporary events" of my studies as a child. And yet in that time you've had more war, famine, disease, poverty, and caused more ecological disasters than I saw in my entire life back home. For reference, I estimate my time on earth to be about 1/10th my total life so far, and I was here when you came up with the idea of agriculture. So yeah. Well done humanity. Well done. *slow clap*

[noparlpf]

One might point out that human methods are inherently biased towards measuring the things humans are good at. And that humans are a bunch of tailless monkey hacks with congenital tendency towards madness, numerous physical design flaws, and a mind so primitive that it took about 2000 years after the initial invention a steam powered motor to realize that it might be more valuable than a toy.

If, say, one where a bitter nonhuman who'd spent several thousand years trapped with a bunch of gibbering warmongering primitives who generally consider any math more complicated than division to be the realm of academics.

I've only spent eighteen years trapped with them and I'm fed up with their nonsense.

Edit:
"Hey, what's four plus eight?"
"Hold on, let me check on my phone."
http://droid-phone.org/droid-phone.jpg
I'M SORRY DAVE, I CAN'T ALLOW YOU TO DO THAT.

If only phones worked that way. I can't believe people have trouble calculating a 15% tip. You knock off a zero from the end, then add half again what's left. I could do it in my head at three faster than my mum could do it on paper.

[Tavar]

Note that size of a brain isn't truly indicative of intelligence. Especially given the drastically different circumstances and environment that the brains work in.

[Grinner]

... and a mind so primitive that it took about 2000 years after the initial invention a steam powered motor to realize that it might be more valuable than a toy.

Hey, that's unfair. Only recently have our communications technologies been developed enough to fully exploit our chief advantage: other humans.

Individually, humans are fodder for larger animals. However, our ability to draw upon each others' abilities is what enables us to literally change the face of Earth. Douglas Adams was right. We are much like a computer.

Also, we have thumbs. :smallsmile:

Edit:


If only phones worked that way. I can't believe people have trouble calculating a 15% tip. You knock off a zero from the end, then add half again what's left.

Nice trick.

[Ravens_cry]

I'm mad because you cheat poorly, and for the wrong reasons. And you're only a success story by the standards of animals: you've outbred the other critters and don't think the die off when you run out of resources (phosphorous, oil, functional antibiotics) will be too bad.

What other measure of success is there? We've cheated before, we'll cheat again. We brought day into night, we have split the indivisible, made memory immortal. Trickster I name us, sons and daughters of Loki and Prometheus, kin of Anansi, Raven, Brer Rabbit and Reynard we are.
None can tame us but ourselves.


As for the real people, your entire recorded history, your entire mayfly empire has lasted less time the "contemporary events" of my studies as a child. And yet in that time you've had more war, famine, disease, poverty, and caused more ecological disasters than I saw in my entire life back home. For reference, I estimate my time on earth to be about 1/10th my total life so far, and I was here when you came up with the idea of agriculture. So yeah. Well done humanity. Well done. *slow clap*
Bull, you're an apeling like the rest of us. To the best of our actual knowledge there is no 'real people' but us.
Why do some people assume that aliens will be some enlightened, near immortal angels who will look down upon us with patronising snobbishness?

[Traab]

What other measure of success is there? We've cheated before, we'll cheat again. We brought day into night, we have split the indivisible, made memory immortal. Trickster I name us, sons and daughters of Loki and Prometheus, kin of Anansi, Raven, Brer Rabbit and Reynard we are.
None can tame us but ourselves.

Bull, you're an apeling like the rest of us. To the best of our actual knowledge there is no 'real people' but us.
Why do some people assume that aliens will be some enlightened, near immortal angels who will look down upon us with patronising snobbishness?

Well, the fact that they GOT here would indicate superiority over what we are capable of. Dunno about enlightened, but patronizing condescension strikes me as accurate. It would be like visiting one of those hidden tribes of natives deep in the middle of the rainforest or something.

[Ravens_cry]

Well, the fact that they GOT here would indicate superiority over what we are capable of. Dunno about enlightened, but patronizing condescension strikes me as accurate. It would be like visiting one of those hidden tribes of natives deep in the middle of the rainforest or something.

So in other word, completely inappropriate. The Spanish made it over the ocean Americas, is that a reason for them to consider themselves superior beings to the Inca and Aztec cultures they encountered?

[Coidzor]

Note that size of a brain isn't truly indicative of intelligence. Especially given the drastically different circumstances and environment that the brains work in.

Otherwise men would have a noticeable advantage over women on average.

Actually, I seem to recall hearing that there was a French scientist back in the day who was rather obsessed with brain weight and intelligence. Possibly came to an erroneous conclusion along those lines and helped perpetuate the myth that women are inferior to men with regards to intellect.

[Grinner]

Otherwise men would have a noticeable advantage over women on average.

Actually, I seem to recall hearing that there was a French scientist back in the day who was rather obsessed with brain weight and intelligence. Possibly came to an erroneous conclusion along those lines and helped perpetuate the myth that women are inferior to men with regards to intellect.

There was also the now abandoned practice of phrenology, which postulated that brain size is indicative of intelligence.

[Cobra_Ikari]

I've only spent eighteen years trapped with them and I'm fed up with their nonsense.

Edit:
"Hey, what's four plus eight?"
"Hold on, let me check on my phone."
http://droid-phone.org/droid-phone.jpg
I'M SORRY DAVE, I CAN'T ALLOW YOU TO DO THAT.

If only phones worked that way. I can't believe people have trouble calculating a 15% tip. You knock off a zero from the end, then add half again what's left. I could do it in my head at three faster than my mum could do it on paper.

The brain is a mysterious thing. There have been times I've received checks and taken 90+ seconds to recognize that the symbols on the paper were numbers and remember what they meant. And for reference, I was a math major for several years.

...that might not be a common occurrence for everyone, though, there have been times I couldn't remember my name or location or recognize people I saw every day, so it might just be a product of that.

[golentan]

Funny how it's usually enough for me to write my response without sharing. Suffice to say, life is not quantitative, but qualitative. He who dies with the most does not win, and failing to see other standards to use is probably a good sign you should go sit in a dandelion patch for a while.

As for your characterization... you couldn't be more wrong if you tried about my view of aliens. But that's a story for another day.

Except for patronizing snobbery. I will totally own up to being a patronizing, back seat critiquing so-and-so.

[H Birchgrove]

So in other word, completely inappropriate. The Spanish made it over the ocean Americas, is that a reason for them to consider themselves superior beings to the Inca and Aztec cultures they encountered?

The Inca and the Aztec had human sacrifices. The Spaniards objected to that. Also, the Spaniards got help by other Native Americans who had been wronged by the Inca.

I think Stanislaw Lem had the right idea about human/alien relationships; aliens would follow what to us would be some kind of Blue and Orange morality.

[Ravens_cry]

Perhaps, to a certain degree almost certainly, but the idea that they will be somehow *better* than us, perfect in ways we are imperfect, with all their little problems worked out, all their eternal questions answered, is what I object to.
I am reminded of Rimmer in an early episode of Red Dwarf talking about how he doesn't believe in the supernatural, and then talks about he does believe in aliens.

[Xondoure]

The Inca and the Aztec had human sacrifices. The Spaniards objected to that. Also, the Spaniards got help by other Native Americans who had been wronged by the Inca.

I think Stanislaw Lem had the right idea about human/alien relationships; aliens would follow what to us would be some kind of Blue and Orange morality.

Yes and then they promptly enslaved their helpers as well while they stripped the land of resources and spread plague like wildfire to clear the way for the rest of Europe... all hail our new overlords!

Seriously, saying that we as members of the civilized world have the right to laugh and look down upon other ways of life because they lack our technology or cultural views is... so sickening I'm having a hard time believing it was put forward at all.

Edit: to be clear, what Traab said, while poorly worded was not quite as offensive to me as trying to justify the actions taken by the Spanish during that period of history. As clearly, many of us do have the potential to be that condescending which proves the point about the lack of enlightenment. That does not make it right, nor us or them superior.

[_Zoot_]

To move away from the idea of the Morality of Empires, I would say that if Dolphins do have the most advanced brains on the planet than they are really wasting them.

I mean, what have they done? Where are the monuments that will morn them when they pass? Where are the armies to destroy those that would stand against them? Where are the centres of learning and culture to celebrate what they have achieved?

Really, all they are are swimming mammals. Smarter than most, but that isn't saying that much.

[The Succubus]

I look through this thread and all I see is the zombie equivalent of a box of chocolates. >.>

[Xondoure]

To move away from the idea of the Morality of Empires, I would say that if Dolphins do have the most advanced brains on the planet than they are really wasting them.

I mean, what have they done? Where are the monuments that will morn them when they pass? Where are the armies to destroy those that would stand against them? Where are the centres of learning and culture to celebrate what they have achieved?

Really, all they are are swimming mammals. Smarter than most, but that isn't saying that much.

"It is an important and popular fact that things are not always what they seem. For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he’s achieved so much: the wheel, New York, wars, and so on, whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But, conversely, the dolphins believed that they were more intelligent than man for precisely the same reasons."

-Douglas Adams

[Skeppio]

whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time.

And by "mucking about in the water having a good time", you no doubt mean:
-Raping their own females.
-Abducting and holding females prisoner until they allow the males mate with them, to the point of denying the captured female ANY sustenance until they go along with said rape.
-Killing porpoises purely for fun.
-Killing their own babies for fun.
-Attempting to rape and murder humans.

:smallannoyed: Seriously, dolphins are the closest thing we have to pure malevolence given flesh. It's a damn good thing we're smarter.

[Ravens_cry]

In other words, they are very human in all the worst ways.
Oh, and they also kill sharks for kicks.

[Skeppio]

In other words, they are very human in all the worst ways.
Oh, and they also kill sharks for kicks.

Humans tend to have a thing called "not being a bloodthirsty barbarian" at least some of the time. That's a very dim view of humans you've got there. :smallannoyed:

[Ravens_cry]

Humans tend to have a thing called "not being a bloodthirsty barbarian" at least some of the time. That's a very dim view of humans you've got there. :smallannoyed:
Well, as a species at least some members have done most of the equivalent at one time or the other.
I love apelings, warts and all, I just don't like some of the warts.

[Skeppio]

Well, as a species at least some members have done most of the equivalent at one time or the other.
I love apelings, warts and all, I just don't like some of the warts.

But comparing us to the evil that is dolphins? Really?

Note: I have a bit of a thing against dolphins. Sharks are far less aggressive, and indeed will often leave you alone as long as you don't get too close and try not to look like a delicious sea lion. While dolphins get away with being vile rapists and murderous monstrosities because "they're so cuuuuuuute!" :smallsigh:

..Sorry, I'm over-reacting again. :smallfrown:

[Ravens_cry]

I am comparing them to our worst aspects.
I also am not exactly fond of them.

[The Succubus]

But comparing us to the evil that is dolphins? Really?

Note: I have a bit of a thing against dolphins. Sharks are far less aggressive, and indeed will often leave you alone as long as you don't get too close and try not to look like a delicious sea lion. While dolphins get away with being vile rapists and murderous monstrosities because "they're so cuuuuuuute!" :smallsigh:

..Sorry, I'm over-reacting again. :smallfrown:

If it makes you feel better, I also have a soft spot for sharks. Absolutely fascinating creatures. As for the abberent behaviour of dolphins (and whales), read "Native Tongue" by Carl Hiaasen. That's all I'm going to say.

[Skeppio]

If it makes you feel better, I also have a soft spot for sharks. Absolutely fascinating creatures.

Yay. :smallsmile:

[Mono Vertigo]

And by "mucking about in the water having a good time", you no doubt mean:
-Raping their own females.

As well as females of other species. (Some of which, I heard, are not even dolphins at all. Yuck.)
Which means it is not a practice conductive to reproduction. Therefore, unlike other cases in the animal kingdom where males mate with females under questionable (for our point of view) circumstances, this is clearly done for the sole selfish benefit of the male (and not his species as a whole).
On top of that, they might be smart enough/have a sufficiently human-like morality to know that this practice is plain WRONG.
Probably redundant, but I felt it was important to explain why that practice is extra-[EXPLETIVE]-up in the case of dolphins.

EDIT: I also prefer sharks. :smallsmile:

[Traab]

Yes and then they promptly enslaved their helpers as well while they stripped the land of resources and spread plague like wildfire to clear the way for the rest of Europe... all hail our new overlords!

Seriously, saying that we as members of the civilized world have the right to laugh and look down upon other ways of life because they lack our technology or cultural views is... so sickening I'm having a hard time believing it was put forward at all.

Edit: to be clear, what Traab said, while poorly worded was not quite as offensive to me as trying to justify the actions taken by the Spanish during that period of history. As clearly, many of us do have the potential to be that condescending which proves the point about the lack of enlightenment. That does not make it right, nor us or them superior.

All right, let me say it a different way. It would be like a bunch of steel using people stumbling across a nation composed of fur wearing flint users. They would be greatly technologically inferior and looked down upon for being so, as it would likely take a great deal of effort to educate them to the level of the steel users, they would also be treated as unintelligent savages. Thats the situation we would be faced with if aliens came to visit.

The simple fact that they traveled from another world and got here is evidence of technological superiority. Said technology would likely take us years to fully understand even if they gave us blueprints right away. So they would have reason to consider themselves superior as they are capable of interstellar travel while we can barely get people to the moon and back.

[Ravens_cry]

Yes, they probably would.
But what I don't buy is that technological superiority equals moral and ethical superiority.
I don't agree with the opposite either for that matter.

[Traab]

Yes, they probably would.
But what I don't buy is that technological superiority equals moral and ethical superiority.
I don't agree with the opposite either for that matter.

/blink. I dont either. Im just saying that most likely they would believe themselves superior just because they are more advanced than we are scientifically speaking. And we would likely each think that we are the more morally or ethically superior race simply because they are different and therefore not as good. ;p

[Ravens_cry]

/blink. I dont either. Im just saying that most likely they would believe themselves superior just because they are more advanced than we are scientifically speaking. And we would likely each think that we are the more morally or ethically superior race simply because they are different and therefore not as good. ;p
There are other possibilities as well from the annals of human history and experience of first contact between cultures of widely disparate technological capability.

[GnomeFighter]

/blink. I dont either. Im just saying that most likely they would believe themselves superior just because they are more advanced than we are scientifically speaking. And we would likely each think that we are the more morally or ethically superior race simply because they are different and therefore not as good. ;p

I don't buy this argument myself. Many others have made it in the past, but look at what we do now. I personaly think IF alians were to visit us they would treat us more like the "untouched" tribes of the rain forest. There are still tribes being found deep in the Amazon and in Borneo and other places around the world. We do not treat them as "lesser" people, or inferior. We treat them with respect and leave them on their own. They have no concept of what the planes flying over are, let alone they work. We do not think of ourselfs as better than them, in many cases worse. It may well be that any alians would see a green and verdant land with some problems, but a world inhabited by all sorts of animals where they have gone down a path of total distruction and see us the same way many see the untouched tribes, as living a better life that they have.

[Ravens_cry]

So in other words, The Prime Directive.:smallamused:

[Asta Kask]

If you look closer at dolphin brains, you would see that the enlarged cortex is largely in the temporal lobe, which does auditive processing. Human brain have an enlarged frontal cortex, which is where decision-making and long-range planning is done.

[The Succubus]

That makes sense. Dolphin communication is a lot more complicated than that of humans - they tend to use their bodies a lot more when communicating with one another and their "speech" spectrum is a lot broader than humans. It would only be logical that a larger percentage of the brain is turned over to it.

[Ravens_cry]

Perhaps, but I think it has more to do with the fact that they use sonar.
All that signal processing has to take place somewhere.

[Asta Kask]

Would be interesting to compare to bat brains.

[irenicObserver]

Maybe Dolphins are at the developmental stage of their species before the development of moral and ethics, just like the barbarians laying waste to villages. I for one am proud of my species, as we are the only ones that see wrong in rape(dolphins), slavery(ants), and prostitution/manslaughter(primates/apes) or just plain cannibalism.

[Cespenar]

Maybe Dolphins are at the developmental stage of their species before the development of moral and ethics, just like the barbarians laying waste to villages. I for one am proud of my species, as we are the only ones that see wrong in rape(dolphins), slavery(ants), and prostitution/manslaughter(primates/apes) or just plain cannibalism.

We can recognize those things because we have done them all. And more.

So, yes, be proud.

[Ravens_cry]

We can recognize those things because we have done them all. And more.

So, yes, be proud.
And many of our cultures have decided that they aren't acceptable any more.
So, yes, be proud.

[Kneenibble]

Meh.

Misanthropy is for lazy minds. It's too easy.

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lytyknmxuX1r3jsrko1_500.jpg

[H Birchgrove]

Maybe Dolphins are at the developmental stage of their species before the development of moral and ethics, just like the barbarians laying waste to villages. I for one am proud of my species, as we are the only ones that see wrong in rape(dolphins), slavery(ants), and prostitution/manslaughter(primates/apes) or just plain cannibalism.

"Stone age peoples" had morality long before they started forming villages that could be pillaged.

Including, but not restricted to, welfare of the elderly and respect for the dead.

[Cespenar]

And many of our cultures have decided that they aren't acceptable any more.
So, yes, be proud.

We forbid many things. All of them end up being done anyway.

[Ravens_cry]

We forbid many things. All of them end up being done anyway.
Of course, but we know they are wrong and most of us avoid doing so.

[Cespenar]

Of course, but we know they are wrong and most of us avoid doing so.

Actually, we tag them as wrong so that we could have a working society. Ethical superiority gives off the idea of ethics being measurable, which is only humorous.

[Ravens_cry]

Actually, we tag them as wrong so that we could have a working society. Ethical superiority gives off the idea of ethics being measurable, which is only humorous.
Since we are a social species, creating a working society is something humans try to do. If tabooing such acts helps that goal, then I don't really see the practical difference.

[Aedilred]

So, we've established that the worst elements of dolphin behaviour aren't very nice.

It's also not difficult to identify that the worst elements of human behaviour are pretty much identical.

But it's ok, they're evil and we're not, because we know that it's wrong to do this stuff. Not that that's stopped large swathes of the population from doing it anyway.

Er.

If dolphins are "malevolence made flesh", what in the name of all that's holy are we?

[Gravitron5000]

If dolphins are "malevolence made flesh", what in the name of all that's holy are we?

We are the measuring stick to which all malevolence is compared.

[Cespenar]

Since we are a social species, creating a working society is something humans try to do. If tabooing such acts helps that goal, then I don't really see the practical difference.

I was talking about the futility and humor of judging other species (heck, animals) with our own ethical code.

[Eldariel]

Let's just have dolphins design our spaceships for us. Will save us a lot of trouble in colonizing the rest of the Milky Way.

[CGforever!]

I read last year that Cro Magnon's had larger brains than we do, by something like 15%.

[irenicObserver]

Were they developed in optimal/beneficial areas?

[Ravens_cry]

From what I understand, Cro-Magnon was basically us. The amazing cave paintings of those French caves were their work.
Size might help to a certain degree, but given how Ravens, Crows and Parrots can show primate like and even almost human like intelligence, Crows even apparently having names for each other, with brains that are much, much smaller, it is hardly everything.

[CGforever!]

Were they developed in optimal/beneficial areas?

I have no idea, basically all I remember is what I said.

[Traab]

From what I understand, Cro-Magnon was basically us. The amazing cave paintings of those French caves were their work.
Size might help to a certain degree, but given how Ravens, Crows and Parrots can show primate like and even almost human like intelligence, Crows even apparently having names for each other, with brains that are much, much smaller, it is hardly everything.

Crows are scary (http://www.cracked.com/article_19042_6-terrifying-ways-crows-are-way-smarter-than-you-think.html) but at least they dont rape you.

[Ravens_cry]

Crows are scary (http://www.cracked.com/article_19042_6-terrifying-ways-crows-are-way-smarter-than-you-think.html) but at least they dont rape you.
Well, as you can guess by my name, I rather like corvids.

[golentan]

Crows are scary (http://www.cracked.com/article_19042_6-terrifying-ways-crows-are-way-smarter-than-you-think.html) but at least they dont rape you.

Birds as a whole are very good about consent. Ducks horribly excepted.

[Riverdance]

Note that size of a brain isn't truly indicative of intelligence. Especially given the drastically different circumstances and environment that the brains work in.

True. I've heard it hypothesized that one can more aptly judge intelligence of a species by the density of folds (I may have said this already). I don't know how true this is.

[Ravens_cry]

Unfortunately, with only one definitive example of sentience, it's really hard to say what makes intelligence and what doesn't without a lot of, really unethical, human experiments.

[H Birchgrove]

Birds as a whole are very good about consent. Ducks horribly excepted.

Family relationships in Disney comics and cartoons suddenly make more sense. :smalleek: