Alchemy and Scaling?

[alchemyprime]

I've been thinking lately: why does the alchemist fire of a 1st level Expert do the same damage as a 20th Level Wizard or Rogue who knows Craft (Alchemy)? Why does the acid have the same damage? Why doesn't the antiplague and antitoxin have improved versions? Etc?

So I wanted to know: How does the Craft (Alchemy) Skill scale with level? What DC's should people be expected to hit at each level? And how viable is it to make a system where a higher check result means more damage and better bonuses from your items?

I just want to make something to let the martials have some kinds of fun.

[limejuicepowder]

The rough and quick way to scale alchemy is to give each potion a base die, then the attack does damage equal to the check result/5 (or something). For example, alchemist's fire would have a base die of d6, so if the character's total check for crafting was 25, it would 5d6 damage. Acid would be base d4, etc. DC's should probably scale in a similar fashion, like for thunderstones and tanlgefoot bags - base DC of 10, then add on craft check divided by 3. It would be kind of a pain keeping track of what potion did what if the character had a stash though.

The problem with that is there is no reason at all why a spellcaster can't use it, so it doesn't really "help" mundanes. It would be nice if alchemy didn't suck beyond belief past level 2 though, no matter who was using it. I tried to make an alchemy based character once, starting at level 5. After 3 battles of not using a single thing from alchemy, my DM let me trade it out.

[Answerer]

There have been a variety of attempts to fix this situation in the Homebrew board. IIRC, Djinn in Tonic and Kellus both came up with very good solutions.

[eggs]

This always bugged me.

A Homebrew post about alchemical items that don't suck (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75871) on these forums was what brought me here in the first place. It also reflects some of your complaints.

I haven't looked too far into the specifics, but talking out of my ass, I'd be tempted to put alchemical effects on the same level as spell effects, provided the Craft DC = 10+10*spell level. (So effects comparable to 1st level spells wouldn't be too hard, and even 3rd or 4th level effects would be relatively easily available at mid-levels, but something like a 6th level spell is basically going to require a specialized factory and dozens of assistants to produce).

[Answerer]

That's the Djinn in Tonic work I was referring to, for reference.

Also, I think I was mistaken about Kellus having Alchemy. Thought someone did...

[alchemyprime]

Well, I was looking at it, and it does seem my old idea of every 3 over the base DC adds to the die (so for Alchemist Fire, a result of 20 is a Level 1 Alchemist Fire (1d6 fire), but a result of 32 is needed for Level 4 Alchemist Fire (4d6 Fire)). I think at Level 20, someone would be able to get +30 easily (Int mod/23 skill ranks/Skill Focus) so at that level it'd be still a feat to get a Level 9 Alchemist Fire (DC 47, so a result of 17 or higher). I also think that it should allow for improved costs of each level, but I'm not sure by how much. Should a Lvl 9 Alchemist fire be 9x the cost, or much higher? That's the same damage as a 9th level caster's spell... So much to consider...

[Wookie-ranger]

an easier way to track names and numbers would be to simply call them different things. along the lines of:
Alchemists fire < dragon mucus < Elemental fire past < Demon juice.
it could basically be the same thing or you could make them a little different to make them more into actually different items.

along those lines. you could probably homebrew all sorts of alchemical stuff that is not overpowered. DM permitting you can even do it in game, similar to researching a new spell.