[3.5] Beguiler Tactics vs a dragon?

[Argoti]

So DM flat up told me that in our next couple sessions we'll be going up against a full casting Shadow Dragon in what is basically The Underdark. My save DCs are pretty bad but can get them up a bit more, but can't think of many good spells to use against such a foe, aside from MAYBE Feeblemind. Want to do more than just buff, and my biggest buff to our damage (Greater Invis on the Swifthunter) would be negated by the dragon having True Seeing.

Party is level 10, so thinking Young Adult or Adult Shadow dragon. Here's the comopsition.
Me, Dark Whisper Gnome Beguiler
Warforged Artificer (Been going blasting rounds last few sessions, but does supply buffs as well) with a Flesh Golem Cohort (Has Wyvern poison built in due to materials used in construction)
Elf Swifthunter (5/5 scout/ranger) Archer with Chocobo AC. Is most of our damage usually
Halfling Grappling Fighter. Has a D&D Wiki prestige class (Luchadore) and will probably be pretty useless for this fight.

[Icewraith]

If the Dragon had True Seeing running you could try to dispel it, maybe with a staff of dispel magic (wand doesn't give you the bonus to CL that is the essence of a dispel check yes?). However, that would leave the dragon's BLINDSIGHT still an issue for invisible types, which is probably what you meant there?

Aside from the cheese way out (have your artificer make you a wand of shivering touch, buff your AC, and try for a surprise round while holding the charge after a successful UMD) and neglecting bluff, since that is what you desire...

1: get yourself a wand of ennervate from your artificer buddy.

2: UMD ennervate a couple times.

3: Feeblemind

4: Hold Monster

??

Profit!

Note: I don't have my books at hand, so this is hoping my google-fu and my memory have located a beguiler spell list that isn't tainted by homebrew.

[tyckspoon]

(Greater Invis on the Swifthunter) would be negated by the dragon having True Seeing.


? Skirmish damage isn't reliant on denying Dex. It triggers when the skirmishing character moves and can be delivered regardless of the target's condition as long as the target is susceptible to precision damage at all. The only way being invisible should buff his damage is the to-hit benefits for striking from invisibility and denying Dex.. and if that's what you're referring to, well, dragons typically don't have Dex bonuses anyway, so it's not that much of a loss.

Edit: Don't count that Halfling out entirely. If he went into that class as soon as possible, he has 2 virtual size increases for purposes of grappling. Get an Enlarge effect on him and he'll count as Huge, which should give him a fair shot at grappling a dragon (which is probably going to be Large, if it's anywhere near a 'fair' CR for your group). Since don't seem to have anybody who can cast one natively, ask the Artificer to spend a night making a scroll or a potion of Enlarge Person for him.

[Argoti]

Checking the Draconomicon not seeing blindsight on the entry, though did forget about that being a standard for dragons. Also UMD has been... iffy with my. Gotten 1 successful roll in... 10 sessions? Can try but don't want to put my luck into that. Might see if the Artificer will go for it though.

*edit*
And also forgot that, yeah the denying dex to damage was mostly what the invis was good for. Oh well. Would be better for me though to trip Cloaked Casting (if I understand the wording correctly)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Hold Monster is a Paralysis effect, which dragons are outright immune to.

Enervation is useless against a Shadow Dragon, as they're outright immune to negative energy.

I would have Arcane Sight up going in, and open with as many targeted (Greater) Dispel Magics as it takes for him to not have any magical auras left (Scintillating Scales, Ray Deflection, and Freedom of Movement need to go away). A (Eternal) Wand of Iron Bands is useful for bringing down winged flyers, or just have someone use Tanglefoot Bags, but again Freedom of Movement will prevail. If you've taken Obtain Familiar and it can fly, use a (Eternal) Wand of Benign Transposition to swap the grappler PC up to the dragon so he can grab it, if he gets a pin it should fall out of the sky and take falling damage. Otherwise the grappler can just spam Tanglefoot Bags at it until it fails a save. You could spam Glitterdust on it hoping it fails a save, or even ready to counterspell every round and probably use dispel magic most of the time.

I know nothing of artificers or their capabilities, but if he can make a Wand of Death Ward or similar to protect the party from its level draining breath attack, it's going to make things a whole lot easier.

Edit: Eternal Wands in MIC can be used by anyone capable of casting arcane spells, regardless of whether or not the spell it contains is on your class list. They're extremely useful for gaining reliable access to a few spells. Another option would be a (custom) Runestaff from MIC, which you can UMD when you prepare spells to use it all day.

[tyckspoon]

Checking the Draconomicon not seeing blindsight on the entry, though did forget about that being a standard for dragons. Also UMD has been... iffy with my. Gotten 1 successful roll in... 10 sessions? Can try but don't want to put my luck into that. Might see if the Artificer will go for it though.

*edit*
And also forgot that, yeah the denying dex to damage was mostly what the invis was good for. Oh well. Would be better for me though to trip Cloaked Casting (if I understand the wording correctly)

Note: Dragons get blindsense, not blindsight. It's a pretty big difference- blindsense only pinpoints you, it does not let it 'see' you. That means you still get most of the benefit of being invisible, most notably denying Dex for any class features that care about it.

Advice: Either get access to Daylight, or check with your DM if he'll allow Glitterdust to negate the Shadow Dragon's Shadowblend. Otherwise, plan on it having total concealment, which will make your party's life much, much harder.

Also: Did your DM actually say it'll have access to True Seeing? That's a minimum spell level 5.. if you're fighting a Dragon that can cast spells at the same level you have access to (worse, it might have spells higher level than yours) you need to prep and bend the odds as much as you can. On-level casting + dragon body and defenses = high risk of TPK.

[Argoti]

That is good to know about Eternal Wands, will definitely yell at the Artificer to make me a few. And yeah the Luchadore has Virtual Size +2 and a wand of Enlarge Person he can use.

Will check on Glitterdust, it has been a staple spell for me until stuff started to save vs blind. and Thats good on the blindsense, especially if it does let me use Cloaked Casting for +2 DCs, will help a lot.

Was going to have the artificer make some wands to protect us from the breath yeah. No Obtain Familiar yet sadly. Might buff the Luchadore with spider climb since itsthe underdark, see if he can get up above the dragon and fall onto him.

And he did say true seeing and full casting, so... yeah we are pretty screwed.

[TuggyNE]

Obligatory mention of shivering touch cheese from .... Frostburn is it? Does 3d6 dex damage, no save. Actually delivering it may be tricky without arcane reach or a familiar, though....

[Eisenfavl]

You have an artificer, also known as a tier 0. How do you want to kill it?
I suggest -9999 level command work celerity, and using the time, gold, and experience from that to make Clvl 10 favour of the martyr, cloud kill, and forcecage, but you can go wild.

Seriously, you have an artificer. That's like having a Ur-Priest/Beholder Mage mystic theurge // StP Erudite in the party, except they get higher level spells far earlier and have more cheese.

[Jeff the Green]

Obligatory mention of shivering touch cheese from .... Frostburn is it? Does 3d6 dex damage, no save. Actually delivering it may be tricky without arcane reach or a familiar, though....

Spectral Hand?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Obligatory mention of shivering touch cheese from .... Frostburn is it? Does 3d6 dex damage, no save. Actually delivering it may be tricky without arcane reach or a familiar, though....

+1 Spell Storing Arrows. You should Lesser Rod of Maximize that while you're at it.

[Argoti]

The artificer... honestly sucks. and would rather blow all his wealth into a Spider Walker/airship/tunneler/boat/sub thing. Wand of Shivering touch, MAYBE, anything else doubtful

[TuggyNE]

Spectral Hand?

Right, I knew I'd forgotten something.

[Icewraith]

Whoopsie, forgot about "holding" being a paralysis effect, and that it's a SHADOW dragon in particular. And blindsense, not blindsight. It's still generally good advice, but I guess I rolled in the vicinity of a "2" on my knowledge check.

Well instead of enervate, you can try crushing despair or feeblemind off the bat, if it fails a save you can hit it with the other one and then slow or Daze Monster it, since I believe dragons generally don't have a daze immunity.

Since the dragon is, presumably, casting arcane spells it takes a -4 to saves against feeblemind. Unfortunately feeblemind doesn't affect the wisdom score, so it won't affect the dragon's will save, but it will be 1: stupider and 2: unable to use any combat-related magic or counterspell any attempts to remove whatever defensive spells the dragon has going. YMMV on part 1, it's up to the dm to realize the dragon is dumb and shouldn't do smart, tactical things like eating the spellcasters instead of the giant halfling trying to grapple it. Part 2 again YYMV if the dragon's only using pre-battle buffs and doesn't have counterspelling defenses. If you can manage to surprise it that'll be more effective as it won't be able to get any short-term defenses up without wasting combat rounds.

Crushing despair is one of your stronger DC spells, so if you can get the dragon to whiff a save it helps everyone. Not quite as good as enervation because of the save requirement, but it's still a good debuff. I would have suggested Charm Monster, but why bother if you're not going to bluff him anyways?

Also, suggestion: Nothing attacking you is real, there is no need to defend yourself from such pathetic illusions.

[Argoti]

Actually my dm might have a different version of Feeblemind because last time I used it the monster then immediately failed his save for Hypnotic Pattern. But probably will Crushing Despair>Feeblemind to make sure

[Flickerdart]

Actually my dm might have a different version of Feeblemind because last time I used it the monster then immediately failed his save for Hypnotic Pattern. But probably will Crushing Despair>Feeblemind to make sure
Crushing Despair is pointless - your Feeblemind will have a DC of 5 higher.

[Keld Denar]

Solid Fog will keep it out of melee range, it that's a concern (if you have a Death Ward up vs its Breath Weapon). Glitterdust will give it a -40 to hide, taking away its biggest advantage of stealth. Neither of those allow a save vs their effects. Glitterdust also gives a chance to blind, but the best part here is the -40 to hide. Also, beguilers get Haste, which is seldom missed in a big fight.

Work smarter, not harder.

[Argoti]

Haste is a staple for me, as ios Glitterdust. Solid Fog... Maybe if the grappler can't do anything, or the golem.

[Keld Denar]

If its large or larger, catch it partially in the area, then have your melee guys pin it in. Now its stuck partly in the fog. If it stays there, it takes a -2 to hit, no save. If it retreats into the fog, it provokes an AoO, and you can just dismiss the fog, have your allies take a 5' step and keep full attacking. Solid Fog is good. Abuse it. If it tries to fly, clip it with a solid fog so that the back 5' overlap with the fog. It will only be able to move 5' forward, stall due to maneuverability rules, and fall to the ground and take damage and be vulnerable to melee.

[Snowbluff]

I Avasculated a Dragon. Twice in one turn (I was a Swiftblade). Then my friends and Warblade tossed me his White Raven Tactics. I Evasculated the Wyrm twice more. It was at a 1/16th of its health.


You can get Avasculate with the Arcane Disciple feat. Make sure to buff yourself with a Wand of Assay Resistance first.

[Keld Denar]

That's a perfect solution, other than the fact that its cheating AND outside of the level reach of the character.

Arcane Discipe restricts a given spell to once per day. If you cast it 4 times using AD, you were using an item, had a houserule, had some serious shananigans, or you were cheating.

[Snowbluff]

That's a perfect solution, other than the fact that its cheating AND outside of the level reach of the character.

Arcane Discipe restricts a given spell to once per day. If you cast it 4 times using AD, you were using an item, had a houserule, had some serious shananigans, or you were cheating.

I bought a wand ^^ My UMD was crap which is why I took the feat in the first place.

[Kaeso]

Does your beguiler have shadow evocation/conjuration yet? It's pretty handy. Since the wizard is immune to most of your regular spells, you can blast away to aid your team with some damage. Otherwise, get yourself a few wands (and a wand bracer from dungeonscape, for 300gp you always have all your wands on hand) and go to town with a few versatile low level spells. CLW to support your party, fireball for some marginal damage, ray of clumsiness can be fierce against low dex creatures etc. etc. UMD is a class skill for you, use it! If nothing else remains, plinking away with your shortbow is always a last resort option.

[Alefiend]

I know this is outside the bounds of what you're asking, but are you sure you have to fight the shadow dragon? Sure, you're going to encounter it, but is it certain that you're going to try to kill each other with stabbing and zapping?

I ask because Beguilers aren't famed for their combat prowess, but rather for their ability to manipulate others. Outsmart the dragon, engage it in a battle of wits, or just perplex it badly enough that you can get past it before it realizes you've made a fool of it.

Dragons are supposed to be very good at manipulation as well, but you have two things in your favor right away. (1) Shadow dragons aren't very social, and thus might not be as sharp as one of the more common types. (2) Your GM is no shadow dragon, and is likely preparing for a battle, so he won't see this coming.

[Argoti]

He did specifically say fight but that might be based on past experience with us. And Shadow Conjuration, not evocation yet... and prob won't for a few levels (Finishing out Shadowcraft Mage). And like I said, don't want to use UMD unless I absolutely have to, history of bad rolls even at my max ranks have had me get 1 Magic Missile off in 10 sessions...