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CrossyCross
2012-03-13, 10:37 PM
I first saw the True Archer in the D&D wiki. I thought it was awesome, and wanted to use it, but I thought it lacked the feel of a real volley archer or a sniper, so I changed it a bit, and posted it here for peer criticism. Tell me what you think.


The True Archer

"My arrows will blot out the sun." –Indrick Cebium, human volley archer, his response on just how much he could help the castle of Mitragard during a siege

"Give me six seconds. It'll be dead by then." –Halimar Fenn, elf sniper archer, on what he could do against a rampaging greater fire dragon

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/167/0/1/FEZ_archer_by_onestepart.jpg

There are archers, and then there are True Archers, masters of the bow unparalleled. They are the pinnacle of physical ranged combat, with the capability to put out carnage comparable to a battle wizard. And it’s all them. No magic, no tricks, just raw, unmatched skill.

Many classes can be archers... fighters, rangers, sometimes even rogues, but none are as dedicated as the true archer. His focus pays off, enabling him to exceed the archery skills of his kin and into heights undreamed of.

True Archers fight at a distance, out of range and out of mind... until the arrows start flying. A true archer can focus on the single powerful shot, or perform a volley of arrows to darken the skies. His support fire quickly wears away the enemy before they can even get close.

Abilities: Dexterity is the most important ability of the true archer, who needs to hit and hit often, many times at penalties due to rapid shooting or distance. Constitution is less important than most characters as you will have distance, but still good for the day you are caught in the claws of your enemy, especially with your low hp. Intelligence gives you more skills as to be more useful to the party than ‘just’ overwhelming artillery.

Races: Any race can be a true archer, although dexterous ones like elves are the most frequent.

Alignment: Any.

Hit Die: d4

Class Skills: (6 + Int modifier per level, ×4 at 1st level)Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Reflex|Will|Special
1st|+1|+0|+2|+0|Overspecialization, Deadly Skill, Archery Style
2nd|+2|+0|+3|+0|Evasion, Bonus feat
3rd|+3|+1|+3|+1|Improved Range
4th|+4|+1|+4|+1|Overdraw, Eagle Eyes +1
5th|+5|+1|+4|+1|Bonus Feat
6th|+6/+1|+2|+5|+2|Improved Archery Style
7th|+7/+2|+2|+5|+2|
8th|+8/+3|+2|+6|+2|Eagle Eyes +2, Bonus Feat
9th|+9/+4|+3|+6|+3|Improved Evasion
10th|+10/+5|+3|+7|+3|Advanced Archery Style, Elemental Shot 2/day
11th|+11/+6/+1|+3|+7|+3|Bonus Feat
12th|+12/+7/+2|+4|+8|+4|Eagle Eyes +3
13th|+13/+8/+3|+4|+8|+4|Elemental Shot 3/day
14th|+14/+9/+4|+4|+9|+4|Golden/Black Arrow 1/day, Bonus Feat
15th|+15/+10/+5|+5|+9|+5|Greater Archery Style,
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+5|+10|+5|Elemental Shot 4/day, Eagle Eyes +4
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5|Bonus Feat
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+6|Golden/Black Arrow 2/day
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+6|Elemental Shot 5/day
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+6|Supreme Archery Style, Bonus Feat, Eagle eyes +5[/table]

All of the following are class features of the True Archer.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: True Archers are proficient with all simple weapons, and all martial ranged weapons. They are proficient with ALL bows, no matter its source or type. True Archers are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Overspecialization(Ex): True Archers train exclusively with the use of the bow, to the exclusion of all else. Therefore, their melee base attack bonus is only half their level. When determining BAB for multiclassing, use their melee BAB(so a level 12 true archer would count as BAB 6 for multiclassing).

Deadly Skill (Ex): The True Archer gains bonus damage equal to his dexterity modifier with ranged attacks.

Bonus Feats: At second level, and every 3 levels thereafter, a true archer can choose a bonus feat. This feat may be selected from the list of fighter bonus feats. In addition, true archer levels count as fighter levels for the purpose of feat pre-requisites, and stack with actual fighter levels. The typical true archer invests in fighter bonus feats related to his style of archery.

Archery Style (Ex): At 1st level a true archer chooses one of two styles of archery, the Volley True Archer who fights through sheer number of arrows rather than pure damage, or the Sniper True Archer who fights through the single, strong, devastating shot, usually under safety of cover. Once this choice is made, it effects the progression of all further archery style benefits.
At 1st level the Volley True Archer gains the Rapid Shooting ability, which for all intents and purposes replaces the Rapid Shot feat. The Sniper True Archer instead gains the Darkstalker feat from Lords of Madness (Pg. 179), enabling him to hide from creatures with alternate senses, along with the Sniping ability.

Rapid Shooting: You can fire arrows quickly. When attacking with a bow as a full round action you get an extra ranged attack at your full base attack bonus, but with a -2 penalty for all attacks for that round. For every 5 True Archer levels above 1, you get an extra attack at a BAB five points lower (so a level 16 volley archer could fire eight times with a base attack bonus of +14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1/-1. If you do not use rapid shooting you can fire four times at +16, +11, +6, and +1). These extra attacks may be fired at different targets.
Special: Taking the improved rapid shot feat removes the -2 penalty.

Darkstalker: You have learned how to stalk and surprise creatures whose senses are very different from those of a humanoid.

Benefit: When you hide, creatures with blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense must make a Listen check or a Spot check (whichever DC is higher) to notice you, just as sighted creatures would make Spot checks to detect you. You cannot hide in plain sight unless you have that ability as a class feature. In addition, you can flank creatures that have the all-around vision special quality.

Normal: Creatures with these senses do not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice other creatures within their range.

Snipe Attack: You may spend a full round action studying a single opponent. You may move up to your move speed while studying a target, but otherwise cannot perform any actions. If you do, your next attacks for one turn (if they hit, which you still have to roll for) automatically threaten a critical hit if your target is unaware of you or is denied his dexterity modifier to his AC. You shall have to study your target once more to regain your Snipe Attack bonuses after attacking. Unfortunately, such is the precision needed for Snipe Attacking, that the only way to gain extra attacks for Snipe Attack is for a high enough base attack bonus. As such, you may not use feats like rapid shot or manyshot for Snipe Attack. Note that if you are distracted in any way while studying your target (which runs from the turn you start it to the turn you attack), you must take a concentration check (use the DC for concentration checks spellcasters need to take, only remove the added DC of spell levels, also, studying your enemy does not provoke attacks of opportunity) to maintain your focus or lose your focus and study your target another round to gain sniping bonuses.

Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a true archer can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If he makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the true archer is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless true archer does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Improved Range (Ex): When you use a bow, its base range increases by one-half (multiply by 1.5). If you have the Far Shot feat the range increase is doubled (this includes the far shot feat), so the final range would be double the base range.

Overdraw (Ex): At fourth level, the true archer may take a penalty on his rolls to hit up to his base attack bonus, and add double this amount to his damage, as power attack. Alternatively, you may instead negate some or all of the to hit penalties at the cost of making a fortitude save at a DC equal to the bonus damage you receive from the attack penalties (so at level 8, a -8 to hit would give you +16 damage, which translates to a DC of 16, or a -4 to hit and a DC 8 fortitude save). Failing the save makes you fall under the effects of fatigue for one turn. Failing it by 10 or more increases the dexterity and strength penalties to -4 and makes it last for two turns. Further failures at increasing increments of 10 increases the penalties by 2 and makes it last for one more turn. These penalties may not be removed or negated in any way. You may only fail the save at a number of times equal to twice your constitution modifier per day, after which you may no longer use overdraw at all for the day.

Eagle Eye (Ex): At 4th level the true archer's senses enable superior shooting. He gains a +1 bonus to his ranged attack rolls, with an additional +1 every four levels thereafter. This stops at 20th level.

Improved Archery Style (Ex): At 6th level a true archer's archery style advances. A Volley True Archer gains the Multishot ability, which replaces the Manyshot feat. A Sniper True Archer instead gets the Hidden Shooter and Precision ability.

Multishot: You fire multiple arrows with each draw of the bow. You may add another arrow to each shot with a cumulative -2 to all arrows’ attack rolls for each arrow you fire. You may only add one arrow plus another arrow for every ten true archer levels above 6. This can be used in tandem with Rapid Shooting. So a true archer with BAB 16 may fire eight times, each time with three arrows, with each shot gaining a -8 modifier (rapid shooting included), together with all other penalties. Note that only one arrow from each shot may critical.

Hidden Shooter: The true archer retains cover easier when sniping. He only takes a -10 penalty to hide checks after sniping intead of -20. Add further modifiers depending on what type of cover or concealment or situation the sniper archer is in. Note that you cannot hide in plain sight, and so need at least some form of concealment, cover, or distraction to remain hidden. Below are some basic variables and their modifiers.

{table=head] Variable | Modifier
Soft/Heavy Cover|+5/+10
Light/Heavy Concealment|+5/+10
[/table]

Precision: When Snipe Attacking, the true archer may negate ranged attack penalties (such as enemy cover and/or concealment, being entangled, being weakened, being shaken, etc.) up to half his ranks in concentration.

Improved Evasion (Ex): At 9th level a true archer becomes even more difficult to hit with magic and other attacks. This ability works like evasion, except that while the true archer still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks he henceforth takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless true archer does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Advanced Archery Style (Ex): At 10th level a true archer's archery style advances once more. A Volley True Archer gains the Extended Augment ability. A Sniper True Archer gains Improved Hidden Shooter and Deadly Precision.

Extended Augment: When using the Elemental Arrow or Golden Arrow ability, the Volley Archer may extend the effect to not just one arrow, but every arrow she fires in one draw of the bow (so she may affect multiple arrows only if she uses multishot). She may augment only one element to every arrow she fires each time she uses elemental arrow.

Improved Hidden Shooter: The sniper archer no longer has any penalties to hide after sniping. Also, when sniping with total cover or concealment you no longer need to make a new hide check.

Deadly Precision: The true archer adds half his ranks in concentration to damage rolls and critical confirmation rolls when Snipe Attacking.

Elemental Arrow (Su): The true archer begins to grasp energy beyond that of normal people, using their inner ki, force of will, or hidden magical talents to bring elemental fury to their arrows. At 10th level the true archer may, as a free action that is part of an attack, imbue an arrow with either fire, cold, electric, or acid damage. All the damage the arrow normally does instead becomes the appropriate elemental damage, plus an additional +4d6 in elemental damage (the additional elemental damage may not critical), which increases by d6 every three levels. He may do this 2/day and an additional time per day every 3 levels afterwards. The player must declare that he is using this ability prior to rolling the attack. Note that nonmagical augmentations such as poisons will disappear, and a failed attack still uses up the Elemental Shot.

Golden Arrow (Su): At 14th level, the volley true archer gains a hallowed object given only to the greatest of marksmen. Once per day he may turn one of his arrows into a golden arrow. This arrow hits automatically. He must choose his golden arrow before he makes the attack roll. This may be used in tandem with elemental arrow. He gains an additional use at 18th level. Note that golden arrow does not negate poisons like elemental arrow, though using both together would.

Black Arrow (Su): At 14th level, the sniper true archer gains a deadly object given only to the most lethal of marksmen. Once per day he may turn one of his arrows into a Black Arrow. A black arrow ignores all damage reduction, hardness, and one specific type of armor bonus chosen (natural/natural armor/armor/dodge/dexterity/etc.). He must choose his Black Arrow before he makes the attack roll. He gains an additional use at 18th level. Note that black arrow does not negate poisons like elemental arrow, though using both together would.

Greater Archery Style (Ex): At 15th level a true archer's archery reaches incredible heights. A Volley True Archer gains the Rain of Arrows ability. Meanwhile a Sniper True Archer gains the Killing Shot ability.

Rain of Arrows: Each of the volley archer’s arrows split into many mid-flight, raining death upon the enemy. As a full round action, the true archer may turn every arrow she fires (NOT in tandem with Multishot) into a multitude. This may be used in tandem with rapid shooting, but doing so incurs a special -4 penalty for all arrows fired (this is reduced to -2 if you have taken the improved rapid shot feat). With each arrow he may target an area 15 feet in diameter (3x3 squares) and deal his normal damage to everyone there (friend or enemy). He must first roll to hit with his normal modifiers (which enables a critical), and if he hits, the targets may roll a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 class level + Eagle Eye bonus +Dex modifier) for half damage. Elemental arrow and golden arrow may be used together with Rain of Arrows, at the same time if wanted (golden arrow makes it hit automatically [this means no critical], with no reflex save allowed, though those with improved evasion take only half damage, while elemental arrow simply increases the damage). Note that nonmagical augmentations (such as poison), if any, are passed on to the multiples, though elemental arrow negates this.

Killing Shot: The sniper archer becomes unbelievably lethal at shooting. When Snipe Attacking, he may, at the cost of a -10 to hit, attempt a sniping attack that will automatically critical even if his enemy is not denied his dex bonus to AC or unaware of him (though creatures immune to critical hits are still immune to this).

Supreme Archery Style (Ex): At 20th level a true archer's archery style reaches heights undreamed of. A Volley Archer gains the Instinctual Lethality ability. The Sniper True Archer instead gains the Slayer ability.

Instinctual Lethality: The Volley Archer gains an instinctual feel for death, and each and every arrow fired, numerous as they are, seem to strike at the most lethal places. Every arrow the Volley Archer fires may critical. In addition, the Volley Archer increases his bow’s critical threat range by two, which may be multiplied by the improved critical ability.

Slayer: The Sniper Archer’s skill at deathdealing becomes so sublime that his every shot deals massive damage it should not be able to cause. When Snipe Attacking, the Sniper Archer doubles the damage multiplication for critical (x2 to x3, x3 to x5, etc.) and does normal critical damage against enemies immune to critical.

Anyway, this is the finished product. Tell me what you think, guys.

Welknair
2012-03-13, 10:47 PM
Oh sh**. How do you make tables? This is my first time! Someone help, please!



{table=head]1 | 2 | 3 | 4
1 | 2 | 3 | 4
1 | 2 | 3 | 4
1 | 2 | 3 | 4
1 | 2 | 3 | 4
[/Table]


Is the same as:
{table=head]1 | 2 | 3 | 4
1 | 2 | 3 | 4
1 | 2 | 3 | 4
1 | 2 | 3 | 4
1 | 2 | 3 | 4
[/Table]

Amechra
2012-03-13, 10:49 PM
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Reflex|Will|Special
1st|+1|+0|+2|+0|‘Archer, Not a Fighter’, Deadly Skill, Archery Style
2nd|+2|+0|+3|+0|Evasion, Bonus feat
3rd|+3|+1|+3|+1|Eagle Eyes +1, Improved Range
4th|+4|+1|+4|+1|Overdraw
5th|+5|+1|+4|+1|Improved Archery Style, Bonus Feat
6th|+6/+1|+2|+5|+2|Eagle Eyes +2
7th|+7/+2|+2|+5|+2|
8th|+8/+3|+2|+6|+2|Bonus Feat
9th|+9/+4|+3|+6|+3|Improved Evasion, Eagle Eyes +3
10th|+10/+5|+3|+7|3|Greater Archery Style, Elemental Shot 2/day
11th|+11/+6/+1|+3|+7|+3|Bonus Feat
12th|+12/+7/+2|+4|+8|+4|Eagle Eyes +4
13th|+13/+8/+3|+4|+8|+4|
14th|+14/+9/+4|+4|+9|+4|Golden Arrow 1/day, Bonus Feat
15th|+15/+10/+5|+5|+9|+5|Advanced Archery Style, Elemental Shot 3/day, Eagle Eyes +5
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+5|+10|+5|Elemental Shot 4/day
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5|Bonus Feat
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+6|Golden Arrow 2/day, Eagle eyes +6
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+6|Elemental Shot 5/day
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+6|Supreme Archery Style, Bonus Feat[/table]

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Reflex|Will|Special
1st|+1|+0|+2|+0|‘Archer, Not a Fighter’, Deadly Skill, Archery Style
2nd|+2|+0|+3|+0|Evasion, Bonus feat
3rd|+3|+1|+3|+1|Eagle Eyes +1, Improved Range
4th|+4|+1|+4|+1|Overdraw
5th|+5|+1|+4|+1|Improved Archery Style, Bonus Feat
6th|+6/+1|+2|+5|+2|Eagle Eyes +2
7th|+7/+2|+2|+5|+2|
8th|+8/+3|+2|+6|+2|Bonus Feat
9th|+9/+4|+3|+6|+3|Improved Evasion, Eagle Eyes +3
10th|+10/+5|+3|+7|3|Greater Archery Style, Elemental Shot 2/day
11th|+11/+6/+1|+3|+7|+3|Bonus Feat
12th|+12/+7/+2|+4|+8|+4|Eagle Eyes +4
13th|+13/+8/+3|+4|+8|+4|
14th|+14/+9/+4|+4|+9|+4|Golden Arrow 1/day, Bonus Feat
15th|+15/+10/+5|+5|+9|+5|Advanced Archery Style, Elemental Shot 3/day, Eagle Eyes +5
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+5|+10|+5|Elemental Shot 4/day
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+5|Bonus Feat
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+6|Golden Arrow 2/day, Eagle eyes +6
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+6|Elemental Shot 5/day
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+6|Supreme Archery Style, Bonus Feat[/table]

Damn Welkneir-Ninjas, can't get around 'em.

Yitzi
2012-03-13, 11:09 PM
1. Class skills usually go before the table.
2. Flanking is a bad example for eligibility for sneak attack, as it doesn't apply to ranged attacks. Also, I'd advise making it so you don't have to be within sneak attack range in order to snipe; just say any time the target is denied DEX bonus to AC and subject to precision damage.

CrossyCross
2012-03-14, 07:29 PM
Edited.
Of course, enemies immune to critical are unaffected by this. (you will hate undead and constructs if you're a sniper, at least until 20th level, at which you will gleefully laugh at them)
Also, thank you, Amechra.

DerTollUdo
2012-03-15, 02:52 PM
Cool class. Makes archery fun again :)
On Sniping: if you have multiple attacks from BAB are they all counted as crits? And does that mean that you must still hit them? Or is it that you just auto hit and crit?

DerTollUdo
2012-03-15, 04:09 PM
Oh and I just noticed that your table is messed up for enchant arrow. It has the bonuses at the wrong levels.

CrossyCross
2012-03-15, 04:41 PM
Sniping automatically criticals if when you hit your opponent you are hidden and/or he cannot use his dexterity bonus for AC.
And since all of your sniping attacks are from your BAB (Eagle Eye bonus adds up to this), yes, ALL of them critical.
Edited: I fixed the allocation for elemental arrows.

strider24seven
2012-03-15, 10:32 PM
I will begin by saying that archery in D&D needs love, and I congratulate you for giving some to archery.

However, love is not the equivalent of a high-yield nuclear weapon, which is what you gave to this class at levels 10 and 15 (though not the same path, so you can't get both).

At level 10, the sniping path gets Concentration to damage. Considering how easy it is to optimize skills (see any post about Incantatrix, for example), this becomes an instant kill for anything below your CR+4 (that isn't a wizard). I would suggest adding ranks in Concentration to prevent the character from purchasing +30 to damage with minimal WBL investment.

At level 15, the archery path gets Rain of Arrows, which is the holy grail of anyone who uses attack rolls. AoE, with to-hit rolls, and can crit. I will use the example of a marrow-crushing, souldrinking weapon, used with multiple shot and rapid shooting. Assuming a haste spell or similar effect is cast beforehand (you're level 15, so this should be assumed anyway), that's 5*2*4 attacks (b/c of eagle eye)=40 attacks, all of which attack all creatures in a 3x3 block. They do get a reflex save to ignore damage, but stacking on-hit effects devastates anything in this area (seeking+bloodseeking+wraithstrike makes AC and cover and concealment irrelevant). In the above example, all creatures in a 3 square by 3 square area (9 creatures) automatically receive 38 CON damage and 38 negative levels (I'm counting 2 natural 1's here). Even if they have Evasion. Oh, and you get lots of bonus damage from Power Draw (which, because of the phrase "as power attack," lets you get bonus damage from using a 2-handed weapon, which is probably not your intent), and Deadly Skill. This is all very situational, I know, but that's an extreme example of what one can do with moderate investment and low optimization using only 3 books+core+this class.

To fix the issue with Rain of Arrows, I would suggest removing the attack roll, and have the archer make a modified check (not a skill or ability check, mind you) against the opponents AC, and the archer would receive a bonus equal to his normal attack bonus for that attack.

Also Eagle Eye lets you qualify for PrC's and feats early. You may wish to address that somehow.

I understand what you were trying to do there, but I am an optimizer at heart and wished to let you know of the issues with those 3 abilities. I believe that archers (not clerics or wizards pretending to be archers) need some love, and I support you whole-heartedly.

CrossyCross
2012-03-15, 11:04 PM
Cripes. Did not think expect that. At all.
I'm new. To D&D and the forums. My highest character is level 7, and my only magical item is a bow that gives +1 to hit and and d6+1 negative energy damage. I can only DREAM of a bow as epic as what you've just told me. So yeah, I didn't expect that.

But that's why I posted into these forums into the first place, to have people find out my mistakes.

First off though, some of your terms: what's 'minimal WBL investment' and 'PrC'?

As for power draw, what I meant was you trade in to hit bonuses for damage bonuses. For a -4 to hit, you get +4 damage, with a limit of up to your BAB. Nothing more. It has no bonus effects for wielding a two-handed weapon.

Eagle Eyes allowing the true archer to access higher level feats earlier than normal was fully intended. They're the best after all. Unless this allows for a really cheap munchkin move that I don't know about. Is there one?

CrossyCross
2012-03-16, 12:22 AM
At level 15, the archery path gets Rain of Arrows, which is the holy grail of anyone who uses attack rolls. AoE, with to-hit rolls, and can crit. I will use the example of a marrow-crushing, souldrinking weapon, used with multiple shot and rapid shooting. Assuming a haste spell or similar effect is cast beforehand (you're level 15, so this should be assumed anyway), that's 5*2*4 attacks (b/c of eagle eye)=40 attacks, all of which attack all creatures in a 3x3 block. They do get a reflex save to ignore damage, but stacking on-hit effects devastates anything in this area (seeking+bloodseeking+wraithstrike makes AC and cover and concealment irrelevant). In the above example, all creatures in a 3 square by 3 square area (9 creatures) automatically receive 38 CON damage and 38 negative levels (I'm counting 2 natural 1's here). Even if they have Evasion. Oh, and you get lots of bonus damage from Power Draw (which, because of the phrase "as power attack," lets you get bonus damage from using a 2-handed weapon, which is probably not your intent), and Deadly Skill. This is all very situational, I know, but that's an extreme example of what one can do with moderate investment and low optimization using only 3 books+core+this class.

To fix the issue with Rain of Arrows, I would suggest removing the attack roll, and have the archer make a modified check (not a skill or ability check, mind you) against the opponents AC, and the archer would receive a bonus equal to his normal attack bonus for that attack.


How do you get 40 attacks? I thought haste only added one attack? That would be 4x2 +1. 9 attacks.
I also read the effects for power attack. And no, with Overdraw you do not get 2 points of damage for every point of attack penalty for the bow.
As for such a broken weapon, I don't think a DM who's been briefed on the True Archer (and he would have to be, with this being a homebrew and all), would allow you to use such a weapon knowing the carnage you could cause wielding it with this class.
I also don't think enemies on your challenge rating would be clumped that closely. DMs don’t make such enemies go on zergling rushes, they make them attack on different sides, or at least far away enough that you'd hit two at most with an area of effect attack(I know the ones I fought always were) like rain of arrows, which is purposed specifically for taking down tons of lower level enemies, which WOULD be clumped closely together on a zergling rush. Also, you hit your allies with it. When fighting enemies on your level, there's always a tank in close combat duking it out with the enemy, and you can't use rain of arrows or risk hitting him.
As you've said, that's very situational, and I think will happen rarely enough that it doesn't make the volley archer too much of a nuker.

Unless I'm missing something again, in which case, regarding your suggestion for the rain of arrows nerf:

Yes, your suggestion could work, though the true archer should still be able to do it as many times as his BAB allows him to. With Eagle Eyes, because it's a fundamental part of the class, unless that makes the ability too cheap.
Also, does this mean there's no critical? Because if there isn't, then I'll have to change the capstone for Volley Archers.

Is it really that bad, though? I keep on hearing about wizards being overpowered to the ninth degree, specifically, they're 'flame-spewing apocalypses in human form'. Is what this class can do enough to challenge a high level wizard of his level?
I mean, it's SUPPOSED to be near the level of a wizard focused completely on battle spells in the carnage it can cause (and just a squishy, if not more since it doesn't get defense spells *cough*magearmor*cough*). If the true archer can cause MORE destruction however, then there's something wrong, and the entire class may have to be nerfed or, god forbid, scrapped completely.
Hopefully not.

MammonAzrael
2012-03-16, 12:41 AM
First off though, some of your terms: what's 'minimal WBL investment' and 'PrC'?

Minimal WBL (Weath by Level) investment - players have an expected amount of gold based on their level. Skill boosting items are fairly easy and inexpensive to acquire. In this case, you could get an item of +30 to Concentration checks for 90k. That might seem expensive, until you realize that you're getting +30 damage from that item.

PrC stands for Prestige Class.


Eagle Eyes allowing the true archer to access higher level feats earlier than normal was fully intended. They're the best after all. Unless this allows for a really cheap munchkin move that I don't know about. Is there one?

There are many many PrCs that use BAB to limit the level you can access them. While I doubt early entry into any of them will break the game, since you won't be a caster, it is worthy of note.

Additionally, BAB is tradionally one of the things that cannot be increased...at least, not past 20. Once you hit Epic levels your BAB gains change. But Eagle Eyes...does this mean that you can acquire a 26/21/16/11/6/1 full attack from just his BAB? Because officially there is no way to get more than a BAB of 20.

MammonAzrael
2012-03-16, 01:32 AM
How do you get 40 attacks? I thought haste only added one attack? That would be 4x2 +1. 9 attacks.
I also don't think enemies on your challenge rating would be clumped that closely. DMs don’t make such enemies go on zergling rushes, they make them attack on different sides, or at least far away enough that you'd hit two at most with an area of effect attack(I know the ones I fought always were) like rain of arrows, which is purposed specifically for taking down tons of lower level enemies, which WOULD be clumped closely together on a zergling rush. Also, you hit your allies with it. When fighting enemies on your level, there's always a tank in close combat duking it out with the enemy, and you can't use rain of arrows or risk hitting him.
As you've said, that's very situational, and I think will happen rarely enough that it doesn't make the volley archer too much of a nuker.


A level 15 True Archer has a Base Attack bonus of +20/+15/+10/+5 (15 from levels, 5 from Eagle Eyes). We are currently at 4 attacks.
Haste adds an additional attack. (5 attacks)
Rapid Shooting doubles that. (10 attacks)
Multishot allows us 3 additional arrows per attack, for a total of 4 arrows with each attack, thanks to 20 BAB. (40 attacks)
And with just one more level we jump to 60 attacks in total! :smalleek:
At level 20 you're looking at 84 arrows!!! And you don't even need to use Rain of Arrows, that's optional.


Hitting your allies is next to a non-effect, as the area it covers is fairly small. CR appropriate enemies at this level will often be at least large sized (2x2 squares), often larger. And even with those that are not Large, nothing says they have to be at the center of the Rain of Arrows, meaning you can aim to have them on an edge, keeping your melee allies perfectly safe. Additionally, your allies (but not your enemies) will be aware of your preference to rain down arrows and should move accordingly.


As for such a broken weapon, I don't think a DM who's been briefed on the True Archer (and he would have to be, with this being a homebrew and all), would allow you to use such a weapon knowing the carnage you could cause wielding it with this class.

Those are hardly broken abilities to place on any weapon, including a bow. I'd much prefer the Splitting enhancement (Champions of Ruin).


Marrowcrushing is from Book of Vile Darkness, and it is essentially Wounding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#wounding), except it's a +3 bonus can can be multiplied on crits.
Souldrinking is also in BoVD and is a more expensive version of Enervating.
Seeking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#seeking) is an enhancement that negates miss chances.
Blood Seeking is from Complete Warrior and allows you to ignore cover when shooting.
Wraithstrike is a spell that only applies to melee attacks, so he's off there.


I don't know why he chose to go with the BoVD abilities rather than the SRD and MIC ones. Presumably for the crit procs.

Regardless, a DM shouldn't have to saw no to weapon abilities as common and balanced as those. The problem lies with the class ability to fire an absurd amount of arrows.


I also read the effects for power attack. And no, with Overdraw you do not get 2 points of damage for every point of attack penalty for the bow.

Then you need to remove "as power attack." Because as writen, that means you get the increased return on damage, since all bows are two-handed weapons.


Is it really that bad, though? I keep on hearing about wizards being overpowered to the ninth degree, specifically, they're 'flame-spewing apocalypses in human form'. Is what this class can do enough to challenge a high level wizard of his level?
I mean, it's SUPPOSED to be near the level of a wizard focused completely on battle spells in the carnage it can cause (and just a squishy, if not more since it doesn't get defense spells *cough*magearmor*cough*). If the true archer can cause MORE destruction however, then there's something wrong, and the entire class may have to be nerfed or, god forbid, scrapped completely.

Do not fight fire with fire. While some people prefer to have their balance point extremely high (like Frank and K's stuff), that leads to more extreme rocket tag. While you have to brew for your preferred style of play, the commonly targeted balance point is around tier 3. Also note that while Wizards and other tier 1 classes (tier system and explanation (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0)) are capable of breaking the game six ways from Sunday, that is often on Theoretical Optimization (TO). Practical Optimization (PO) is much much more common among those that actually know how to optimize, and will often be scaled to be appropriate to the rest of the parties power level.

Also, mage armor is workable but unexciting as far as defensive options go for wizards. :smallwink: And a wizard who is focused on damage is often far less effective than they otherwise would be, unless you're going for a mailman style wizard.

The Mentalist
2012-03-16, 06:21 AM
A level 15 True Archer has a Base Attack bonus of +20/+15/+10/+5 (15 from levels, 5 from Eagle Eyes). We are currently at 4 attacks.
Haste adds an additional attack. (5 attacks)
Rapid Shooting doubles that. (10 attacks)
Multishot allows us 3 additional arrows per attack, for a total of 4 arrows with each attack, thanks to 20 BAB. (40 attacks)
And with just one more level we jump to 60 attacks in total! :smalleek:
At level 20 you're looking at 84 arrows!!! And you don't even need to use Rain of Arrows, that's optional.



*cough*Splitting*Cough* (Yes, almost universally considered cheese but worth mentioning when we're talking about such massive amounts of attacks.)


The break point comes even sooner than that in my mind though. Even without Haste, Splitting, or any other multiple attack method you end up with 18 attacks at level five (admittedly all at -4 penalties but that's still 12 with -2 FAR better than two weapon fighting ever gets and much more quickly [I know TWF is not a balance point]) With any Negative level or stat damage option this becomes absurdly powerful.


This is a good concept and having a volley attack archer is a really cool idea and archetype the multiplicative method may not be the best option for this as Mammon so eloquently showed (as the attack progression scales quadratically and health for everything scales in a linear fashion)

I am not entirely sure how to make the Volley archer viable without being OP yet but I'll get back to you if I think of something. (Possibly scaling back the multiples or giving one point of multiplication that scales up (x2 to x3 to x4 to x5) or something like that.

MammonAzrael
2012-03-16, 02:27 PM
*cough*Splitting*Cough* (Yes, almost universally considered cheese but worth mentioning when we're talking about such massive amounts of attacks.)

Splitting is considered cheese? as it's a +3 enhancement, I've always felt it a fairly balanced option that makes ranged weapons actually viable. I didn't include it because I didn't want to muddy the math with (minor) optimization.


The break point comes even sooner than that in my mind though. Even without Haste, Splitting, or any other multiple attack method you end up with 18 attacks at level five (admittedly all at -4 penalties but that's still 12 with -2 FAR better than two weapon fighting ever gets and much more quickly [I know TWF is not a balance point]) With any Negative level or stat damage option this becomes absurdly powerful.

18? I'm seeing:

2 from +6/+1 BAB
Up to 4 from Rapid Shooting
Multishot doubles that to 8, since you can only add one arrow at this point.


Still way to much though! Deadly skill already gives a huge damage boost per arrow, which also probably needs to be toned down.


This is a good concept and having a volley attack archer is a really cool idea and archetype the multiplicative method may not be the best option for this as Mammon so eloquently showed (as the attack progression scales quadratically and health for everything scales in a linear fashion)

I am not entirely sure how to make the Volley archer viable without being OP yet but I'll get back to you if I think of something. (Possibly scaling back the multiples or giving one point of multiplication that scales up (x2 to x3 to x4 to x5) or something like that.

It might be worth looking at the Volley rules from Heroes of Battle (page 68).

CrossyCross
2012-03-16, 08:29 PM
Oh god, so much information to digest. :smalleek:
Uhh, let me get to this one by one.
This one is to MammonAzrael's first reply.

For the sniper archer, yeah, I'm going to change that to ranks. Much less cheese and makes more sense.

As for the eagle eye bonus, I'd rather it only works as BAB for number of attacks and the amount you can take as a penalty for overdraw, dropping its ability to take feats and prestige classes since that apparently might me used for munchkinning. Oh, and it stops at +6, because being to effectively hit enemies five levels higher seems cheesy enough.

I read the epic progression rules, and they apparently mean that a level 40 fighter without any special effects or feats can only attack four times. The hell. I'm calling bullcr** on this. You're basically a war god by then and you can't swing your sword more than four times in six seconds? Come on!

I'd rather that yes, you can attack six time, but considering the problems mentioned in your later comment, then I'll just stick it to a normal attack bonus for now.

CrossyCross
2012-03-16, 08:43 PM
A level 15 True Archer has a Base Attack bonus of +20/+15/+10/+5 (15 from levels, 5 from Eagle Eyes). We are currently at 4 attacks.
Haste adds an additional attack. (5 attacks)
Rapid Shooting doubles that. (10 attacks)
Multishot allows us 3 additional arrows per attack, for a total of 4 arrows with each attack, thanks to 20 BAB. (40 attacks)
And with just one more level we jump to 60 attacks in total! :smalleek:
At level 20 you're looking at 84 arrows!!! And you don't even need to use Rain of Arrows, that's optional.


Hitting your allies is next to a non-effect, as the area it covers is fairly small. CR appropriate enemies at this level will often be at least large sized (2x2 squares), often larger. And even with those that are not Large, nothing says they have to be at the center of the Rain of Arrows, meaning you can aim to have them on an edge, keeping your melee allies perfectly safe. Additionally, your allies (but not your enemies) will be aware of your preference to rain down arrows and should move accordingly.


You do know that the other attacks aside from the first and the one granted by haste are at -5, -10, and -15 to hit respectively, right?
And that adding three arrows gives another -8 on top of everything to all rolls to hit?
It's practically a given that a -10 or a -15 attack won't hit. A -8 on top of everything? You won't hit anything with AT LEAST 3/4 of all your attacks if you're fighting monsters on your challenge rating!
YES you fire a TON of arrows. But barely any of them will hit. And if you end up fighting a ton of weak enemies that you can easily hit because you're so many levels above them, well, that's EXACTLY what the volley archer is for!

Also, using one rain of arrows for one monster is a waste. Rain of arrows only does the same damage you do with one arrow. It's for tons of enemies, not only one enemy.

CrossyCross
2012-03-16, 09:23 PM
Those are hardly broken abilities to place on any weapon, including a bow. I'd much prefer the Splitting enhancement (Champions of Ruin).

[LIST]
Marrowcrushing is from Book of Vile Darkness, and it is essentially Wounding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#wounding), except it's a +3 bonus can can be multiplied on crits.
Souldrinking is also in BoVD and is a more expensive version of Enervating.
Seeking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#seeking) is an enhancement that negates miss chances.
Blood Seeking is from Complete Warrior and allows you to ignore cover when shooting.
Wraithstrike is a spell that only applies to melee attacks, so he's off there.


I don't know why he chose to go with the BoVD abilities rather than the SRD and MIC ones. Presumably for the crit procs.

Regardless, a DM shouldn't have to saw no to weapon abilities as common and balanced as those. The problem lies with the class ability to fire an absurd amount of arrows.

Then you need to remove "as power attack." Because as writen, that means you get the increased return on damage, since all bows are two-handed weapons.


I am new to D&D, and so did not know about those enhancements. Still, as you've admitted, the problem lies with the sheer amount of arrows the archer can fire.

Once again, I will say that most of the shots will miss if you maximize the amount against a monster on your challenge rating.
Seeking and Bloodseeking only works if the enemy is concealed or has cover in some way. Otherwise it does not help at all.
Yes, monsters will take a lot of damage whenever you hit them with those enhancements, but you have to hit them first.
Let's take some monsters around challenge rating 15 and their ACs: Horned Devil (35), Ice Devil (32), Storm Giant (27), Golden Protector (29).

By level 15 you have +20 to hit from you class BAB and abilities. Add in feats and magical weapons and let's say you have +30.

Let's say a d20= 10. So that's a +40. You hit all of them with the first two attacks (rapid shooting included). The next, at -5, barely hits all of them. After that you only hit on a 1/4 chance or worst. Using Multishot (which, FYI, is just manyshot, only you don't have to take improved manyshot to shoot more than four arrows at once) makes your chances of hitting WORSE. Perhaps adding one on the first attacks will give you two or more hits, but at the -10 and -15 ones? No, not a good idea to add a -4 to those. You'll have crapshoot aiming by then.

See? Not so cheesy when take in your aiming. (unless I'm missing something, AGAIN)

Edit: I changed the overdraw. It is not 'as power attack' now. I'm going to change the precision and deadly precision too...

CrossyCross
2012-03-16, 09:33 PM
*cough*Splitting*Cough* (Yes, almost universally considered cheese but worth mentioning when we're talking about such massive amounts of attacks.)

The break point comes even sooner than that in my mind though. Even without Haste, Splitting, or any other multiple attack method you end up with 18 attacks at level five (admittedly all at -4 penalties but that's still 12 with -2 FAR better than two weapon fighting ever gets and much more quickly [I know TWF is not a balance point]) With any Negative level or stat damage option this becomes absurdly powerful.


HOW does a level 5 true archer get 18 attacks at level five? At level five it has +7 to hit. So that's two attacks. Double that with rapid shooting to four. Then add in multishot (you can only add 1 arrow to each attack since you're only one 5 points above +1 to hit), which is 8. Remember though that multishot has manyshot penalties, so ALL of your attacks are at -4 to hit. With your bonuses and let's say a simple magical weapon, your highest possible attack bonus is +5 for half your attacks. +0 for the other half.

For you to cause absurd damage, you'd have to HIT first. Using too many arrows makes hitting hard, and so you'll have to lessen your attacks. which makes it not so cheap.

Still, splitting DOES make it doubly effective, yeah...

CrossyCross
2012-03-16, 09:38 PM
This is a good concept and having a volley attack archer is a really cool idea and archetype the multiplicative method may not be the best option for this as Mammon so eloquently showed (as the attack progression scales quadratically and health for everything scales in a linear fashion)

I am not entirely sure how to make the Volley archer viable without being OP yet but I'll get back to you if I think of something. (Possibly scaling back the multiples or giving one point of multiplication that scales up (x2 to x3 to x4 to x5) or something like that.

I just gave my say on why I think it's not overpowered. If I'm right, then all's well.

If not, and I missed something again, then I'm out of ideas on how to make a viable volley archer.

Considering that all the comments have been about the volley archer, I'm guessing the Sniper Archer isn't OP after I nerfed it. So I don't have to scrap the class after all. Still, if I'm wrong about the volley, then half the class is still OP, and I don't know what to do.

So help me if I I'm wrong...

CrossyCross
2012-03-16, 09:56 PM
18? I'm seeing:

2 from +6/+1 BAB
Up to 4 from Rapid Shooting
Multishot doubles that to 8, since you can only add one arrow at this point.


Still way to much though! Deadly skill already gives a huge damage boost per arrow, which also probably needs to be toned down.

It might be worth looking at the Volley rules from Heroes of Battle (page 68).

I KNEW his math was wrong! Still, that's too much for level 5? Really? Aw well, I guess I'll just have to trust in your judgement. You seem more experienced than me after all.

As for deadly skill, yeah, I'm going to have to nerf that. Should it be just your level in damage, or just you dex bonus?

The problem is, though, that I KNOW there's a feat that gives you your dex modifier in damage, but only if you attack as a full round action...which you do all the time as a true archer. Cripes.

There's also probably a feat that gives you your LEVEL in damage. I think it's from this book called dragon lords of melnibone.

That's where I got the idea for deadly skill's mechanics.

So if those feats are legit, then there's no difference even if you take out deadly skill. Players will just take the feats and start dealing mass damage.
Double cripes.

Maybe it should be like you get your level in damage at early levels and you start adding your dex modifer at later levels? Or maybe just ban the feats?

As for the volley rules, where do I get the pdf for that?

PEACH
2012-03-16, 09:58 PM
The damage on sniping is uhh.... insane. The damage on rapid shooting is similarly insane, but sniping goes in with a base +44 to attack (including BAB) and a +44 to damage. When you consider that you're hitting that four times with a 6X crit modifier, your base damage with absolutely nothing else added in (not even dex bonuses) is 1056, with four DC 274 fort saves vs. death.

Volley archer, which can (essentially) multiply the number of attacks he's getting by 10 (at a -8 penalty to each) is similarly powerful, but since you don't force tons of fortitude saves or have the absurd automatic +24 to hit and (less absurd) automatic +24 to damage, it isn't as inherently borked... except golden arrow essentially becomes a two/day "this guy dies" ability (or, though I'm not sure how the interaction works because it isn't really spelled out, a 2/day "everybody I want in range" dies, because you can split it and force a DC infinite reflex save for half damage with rain of arrows). The bonus crit range is just gravy (because, really, crits are basically irrelevant), and the elemental arrows are likewise just gravy.

The problem with this is, basically, without any optimization, just using the base classes, they already deal huge damage that, at least in the sniper's case, doesn't have a chance to miss, and all optimization does is shore up weaknesses and get multipled by a huge factor (huge bonuses to numbers of attacks, crit ranges, base damage, attack rolls, and crit ranges are all subject to huge abuse).

Also, you might want to change the part about melee BAB to mean just BAB from this class, because that kind of prohibits multiclassing if you wanted to (not that I can see a reason to leave this for a martial character).

EDIT: To be clear, the problem is not with the wide variety of options people can take to make this broken. The problem is that you have a chassis that gives automatic hits, automatic crits with a(n impossible) fort save versus death, huge attack bonuses, and huge multipliers given if you have any source of extra damage or attacks. The problem isn't that you can take a feat adding your level to damage (which I don't think is in any non 3rd party books, besides Craven, which only applies to sneak attacks), the problem is that damage (or anything else) is multiplied 40x by a volley archer, more with any source of additional attacks.

CrossyCross
2012-03-16, 10:16 PM
Golden Arrow is an arrow that automatically hits its target.
When volley archers use it, with extended augment, one use turns every arrow in ONE attack into golden arrows. This does not include rapid shooting. So ONE attack, with multiple arrows from multishot being turned into golden arrows for automatic hits if you use multishot (which you WILL do, as that's the entire purpose of extended augment), and that is it.
Also, you cannot target multiple enemies with multishot, all your arrows are on one guy. As for using golden arrow on a multishot rain of arrows, it only means you don't have to roll to hit. Everyone automatically gets hit with rain of arrows, with no save, although improved evasion technically automatically makes the damage half. But only twice per day, and that's at 18th level.

As for sniper archer...my god, it IS complete cheese. I mean, you're going to be hiding most of the time, so you only have a -10 to hit for a coup de grace since you automatically critical when hidden. I should probably just nerf it to forced critical but no forced coup de grace.

Trufflehound
2012-03-16, 10:46 PM
Overdraw (Ex): At fourth level, the true archer may take a penalty on his rolls to hit up to his base attack bonus, and add this amount to his damage.

He can overdraw his bow without ruining it? This class should also have the feature where you can keep your bow braced all the time without losing tension after a month.

Sorry, I got into bowmaking a few months ago, and now I can't read the PHB without noticing that the composite bows they draw aren't even composite. I should probably leave and go to back to the real-life weapons & armor thead now...

But props on working on an archer class. Does the Elemental Arrow damage increase by a dc every two levels after tenth? The wording isn't explicit.

PEACH
2012-03-17, 02:54 AM
Golden Arrow is an arrow that automatically hits its target.
When volley archers use it, with extended augment, one use turns every arrow in ONE attack into golden arrows. This does not include rapid shooting. So ONE attack, with multiple arrows from multishot being turned into golden arrows for automatic hits if you use multishot (which you WILL do, as that's the entire purpose of extended augment), and that is it.
Also, you cannot target multiple enemies with multishot, all your arrows are on one guy. As for using golden arrow on a multishot rain of arrows, it only means you don't have to roll to hit. Everyone automatically gets hit with rain of arrows, with no save, although improved evasion technically automatically makes the damage half. But only twice per day, and that's at 18th level.

As for sniper archer...my god, it IS complete cheese. I mean, you're going to be hiding most of the time, so you only have a -10 to hit for a coup de grace since you automatically critical when hidden. I should probably just nerf it to forced critical but no forced coup de grace.

Forced crits at x6 are still massively overpowered; you're multiplying any other source of damage optimization by 6 at that point, which is huge.

As for my interpretation: It's not really my fault that you're not using the normal definitions of attack. Attack is (normally) just a single roll, but when you changed it from one arrow to one "attack", it's hard to think of that as anything besides the full attack action. That, combined with the generally poor wording, makes it impossible to comprehend what that actually means. The fact you can also get a ton of extra attacks rolled, but can't choose the target (unlike normal for D&D), is also... well, it's nearly impossible to parse.

I'm going to just outright say it: This class is basically impossible to balance. Nothing in here is really salvageable. You have to understand that, while giving extra critical damage or range, or an extra attack, or a minor attack bonus or attack damage bonus is OK, giving automatic crits, doubling your attack bonus, granting huge automatic bonuses to damage, and (essentially) multiplying your attacks by 6 (due to crits) or 10 (due to volleying) is never going to be balanced. Everything in this entire class, almost, would have to be rewritten for it to come close to being reasonably balanced. The other problem is that almost everything in the class is just a pure numbers increase, which leads to this class not having any real utility or function against something that can ignore ranged attacks in some manner. Even if the numbers were brought down "to normal", that would still be a big design issue.

MammonAzrael
2012-03-17, 04:08 AM
Before I get to anything, let me say that keeping all your replies to a single post is better than multiposting. To quote multiple different posts, just click the quotation marks next to the quote button on each post. :smallsmile:

Thread responses:


For the sniper archer, yeah, I'm going to change that to ranks. Much less cheese and makes more sense.

Even ranks is a hell of a lot of bonus damage. That will be you level + 3, as no one is going to not increase it every level. At tenth level it will grant a +13 bonus to damage, which is roughly 4d6 extra damage.


As for the eagle eye bonus, I'd rather it only works as BAB for number of attacks and the amount you can take as a penalty for overdraw, dropping its ability to take feats and prestige classes since that apparently might me used for munchkinning. Oh, and it stops at +6, because being to effectively hit enemies five levels higher seems cheesy enough.

I read the epic progression rules, and they apparently mean that a level 40 fighter without any special effects or feats can only attack four times. The hell. I'm calling bullcr** on this. You're basically a war god by then and you can't swing your sword more than four times in six seconds? Come on!

I'd rather that yes, you can attack six time, but considering the problems mentioned in your later comment, then I'll just stick it to a normal attack bonus for now.

You missed my point. As it stands, there is no way to obtain a Base Attack Bonus higher than your level. Which means that there is no way to obtain a BAB higher than 20 and 4 attacks (epic levels add an spic bonus to all attacks, but your BAB no longer increases). There are no rules for dealing with BABs higher than 20 as the system is built for it to not be an issue

So what happens once a True Archer hits level 16? Do they have 21 BAB? Do they gain another iterative attack, a completely unique feature in 3.5?

This effect, by itself, is incredibly powerful. Don't worry about minor early entry issues, worry about the utterly unique ability that surpasses even Epic capabilities.


You do know that the other attacks aside from the first and the one granted by haste are at -5, -10, and -15 to hit respectively, right?
And that adding three arrows gives another -8 on top of everything to all rolls to hit?
It's practically a given that a -10 or a -15 attack won't hit. A -8 on top of everything? You won't hit anything with AT LEAST 3/4 of all your attacks if you're fighting monsters on your challenge rating!
YES you fire a TON of arrows. But barely any of them will hit. And if you end up fighting a ton of weak enemies that you can easily hit because you're so many levels above them, well, that's EXACTLY what the volley archer is for!

Also, using one rain of arrows for one monster is a waste. Rain of arrows only does the same damage you do with one arrow. It's for tons of enemies, not only one enemy.

The -5/-10/-15 penalties do not matter because every single melee class deals with them. They are system-wide, so they are not a balancing factor. Other classes would kill to have a third of the attacks that True Archer can churn out every round. 4-5 attacks is strong at 20th level, and True Archers can be laughing at that at 5th level.

The -10 penalty from you flurrying all those arrows can be negated with appropriate bonuses. At level 20 you'll have:


20 BAB
6 Eagle Eyes
11-13 32-36 Dex
1 Haste
5 Weapon enhancement


So a +43 to hit minimum. -10 knocks you down to 33. did you know the average AC of a CR 20 monster is between 35 and 40? So with just a little bit of work (morale, luck, insight bonuses, and so much more) even with the penalty your first two volleys will only be missing on a 1. By the way, you'll be making 24 attacks at your highest bonus before the iterative attacks kick in. 24! And nothing says they can't all be shot at the same creature.

Rain of Arrows is not what I'm worried about. It's not the problem. The problems are Rapid Shooting and Multishot.


Once again, I will say that most of the shots will miss if you maximize the amount against a monster on your challenge rating.
Seeking and Bloodseeking only works if the enemy is concealed or has cover in some way. Otherwise it does not help at all.
Yes, monsters will take a lot of damage whenever you hit them with those enhancements, but you have to hit them first.
Let's take some monsters around challenge rating 15 and their ACs: Horned Devil (35), Ice Devil (32), Storm Giant (27), Golden Protector (29).

By level 15 you have +20 to hit from you class BAB and abilities. Add in feats and magical weapons and let's say you have +30.

Let's say a d20= 10. So that's a +40. You hit all of them with the first two attacks (rapid shooting included). The next, at -5, barely hits all of them. After that you only hit on a 1/4 chance or worst. Using Multishot (which, FYI, is just manyshot, only you don't have to take improved manyshot to shoot more than four arrows at once) makes your chances of hitting WORSE. Perhaps adding one on the first attacks will give you two or more hits, but at the -10 and -15 ones? No, not a good idea to add a -4 to those. You'll have crapshoot aiming by then.

See? Not so cheesy when take in your aiming. (unless I'm missing something, AGAIN)

Edit: I changed the overdraw. It is not 'as power attack' now. I'm going to change the precision and deadly precision too...

You are missing something. It is that every other melee class deals with the same degrading bonus to attacks. There is nothing to prevent the True Archer from dealing with it like everyone else. They just get waaay more shots at the monster. And their damage is extremely comparable, if not outright superior, thanks to Deadly Skill.

Also, I think you are misusing the term "cheesy." Cheesy implies something that is technically legal but is obviously overpowered, unintended, or questionable. When you're designing homebrew you don't get "cheesy," you get "broken." As in "this is broken because it does not work and needs to be fixed."


For you to cause absurd damage, you'd have to HIT first. Using too many arrows makes hitting hard, and so you'll have to lessen your attacks. which makes it not so cheap.

Still, splitting DOES make it doubly effective, yeah...

And that is true of every single melee class. And yet the True Archer has so many more opportunities. Eagle Eyes by itself nearly completely cancels out the effect of multishot, putting them on an even footing with melee classes...just with a hell of a lot more attacks.

And don't worry about splitting. It's a good weapon enhancement, but fair for the cost.


I just gave my say on why I think it's not overpowered. If I'm right, then all's well.

If not, and I missed something again, then I'm out of ideas on how to make a viable volley archer.

Considering that all the comments have been about the volley archer, I'm guessing the Sniper Archer isn't OP after I nerfed it. So I don't have to scrap the class after all. Still, if I'm wrong about the volley, then half the class is still OP, and I don't know what to do.

So help me if I I'm wrong...

You don't need to scrap the class. The ideas are solid. What needs to be dealt with is math and execution.


I KNEW his math was wrong! Still, that's too much for level 5? Really? Aw well, I guess I'll just have to trust in your judgement. You seem more experienced than me after all.

Are you crazy? Have you ever played a level 5 melee character? They're extremely happy to have 2 attacks, and thrilled to have 3. Having 8 is great at level 20!


As for deadly skill, yeah, I'm going to have to nerf that. Should it be just your level in damage, or just you dex bonus?

Adding your class level to damage is extremely strong. The feat Craven does this and is generally regarded to be an overpowered feat. Adding just your dexterity to damage is excellent. You don't even have it added as precision damage!


The problem is, though, that I KNOW there's a feat that gives you your dex modifier in damage, but only if you attack as a full round action...which you do all the time as a true archer. Cripes.

I am unaware of such a feat. The only feat I know of that adds Dex to damage is Shadow Blade from Tome of Battle, and that only applies when you're wielding the proper weapons and in a Shadow Hand stance.


There's also probably a feat that gives you your LEVEL in damage. I think it's from this book called dragon lords of melnibone.

As above, Craven is the only feat I know that adds your level to damage. And it only does so on sneak attacks and gives you a penalty to fear effect and is still widely considered too strong.


That's where I got the idea for deadly skill's mechanics.

So if those feats are legit, then there's no difference even if you take out deadly skill. Players will just take the feats and start dealing mass damage.
Double cripes.

Ideas are fine, you just need to run the math and compare it to what other classes are capable of.


Maybe it should be like you get your level in damage at early levels and you start adding your dex modifer at later levels? Or maybe just ban the feats?

As for the volley rules, where do I get the pdf for that?

Don't worry about the feats. Adding extra things to the class won't break it more. Personally, adding Dex should be fine, as it is roughly equivalent to melee classes adding strength to damage. None of those classes, however, are adding their level on top of that.

The volley rules are in the Heroes of Battle splat book. If you don't own it you'll have to find it on your own. Suffice to say it's a lot lower powered than your version.


Point by point critique of the class:


A d4 hit die is an interesting choice. Given the utter focus on being far away from the enemy I like it. Makes getting up close a rather dangerous proposition. Good to see a non-caster with a d4.
Skills look good, though I'd give them access to Knowledge Geography, History, and Nobility and Royalty - they're primarily flavor, but make sense for martial characters to have access to.
BAB and Saves are fine. (10th level Will is missing a "+")
I'd remove the single exotic weapon from their natural proficiencies. They can use all exotic bows already. If an archer wants to get more crazy, they can spend a feat just like everyone else. Armor seems fine.
Archer, Not a Fighter: Interesting. I'm not sure it's necessary, given their hit die, but it's not a bad thing. Though it makes multiclassing and wanting to do any melee absolutely horrible. The name, though, could use some work, as it's a little meta at the moment.
Deadly Skill: That's a lot of bonus damage. Just Dex by itself as precision damage is a great class feature. I'd cut it down to just Dex damage added.
Bonus Feats: 7 bonus feats is a lot, considering they get a bunch of class features. But this could certainly be fine, depending on how the rest of the class is.
Archery Style: Ok, I can dig alternate styles. I'd format it based on the Ranger Combat Style (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm#combatStyle) wording though.
Rapid Shooting: This is freaking incredible. It doubles your attacks at no cost. At 1st level. Hell, it isn't even restricted to ranged attacks! Needs to be seriously scaled back. What's wrong with Rapid Shot that you don't want to just use the feat?
Darkstalker: Great feat. It could carry a level by itself for a stealthy class. Makes for a tempting dip (though not nearly as tempting as Rapid Shooting).
Sniping: So...Do you automatically hit without having to roll? Do you just automatically threaten a critical? Is it confirmed? If distracted what is the DC of the Concentration check? And given the name is the same as the action under the Hide Skill, I'd change it to something like Snipe Attack.
Evasion: Like a Monk, at the same level. Fine.
Eagle Eye: So they get an additional bonus to attacks that virtually cancels out the multishot penalty? On top of that it grants additional attacks? This is insanely powerful. Just an attack bonus seems Very Good. Does any other melee class get a scaling bonus like this? Well...other classes can spend a feat to get Weapon Focus? Again, a very very very strong ability.
Improved Range: Solid, but oddly worded. Having Far Shot should not be the assumed situation. I'd word it as "When you use a bow, its range increment increases by one-half (multiply by 1½). If you have the Far Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#farShot) feat the range increment is doubled (this includes the increase from Far Shot).
Overdraw: Seems...well, I was going to say fine, but it has a problem. Power Attack isn't used with single handed weapons - a direct -1/+1 trade from attack to damage simply isn't worth it. So as written, Overdraw isn't breaking things with its power level. It will just sit there, unused, gathering dust. It just isn't relevant. I see no reason why they couldn't add 2 damage for each point of attack sacrificed. And perhaps instead of being limited by BAB, it's limited by your Strength modifier.
Improved Archery Style: Wheee, combat styles!
Multishot: As covered above, this is broooooooken. The problem is the uncapped nature, granting you attacks for virtually everything with nary a restriction. Its exponential growth, which essentially invalidates the attack penalty (along with the other bonuses to hit the True Archer gets). I'm honestly not sure what the fix is for this. Firstly it needs some kind of limit. I'm unsure if it should be usable in conjunction with Rapid Shooting.
Hidden Shooter: Given that he'll need cover or concealment to be hiding regardless, the bonuses for partial cover and concealment seem superfluous.
Precision: No. Just no. When you get it's a +8 to attack. That, right there, without any further increasing, boggles the mind. By level 20 you might as well not bother rolling to hit, because you're only missing on a 1, ever. It more than doubles your Base Attack Bonus! I have no idea what to replace this with, because it needs to be replaced, which means a new direction. Maybe something that allows precision damage to be applied father, or ignore certain types of AC bonuses, or punch through weather effects, or...well, anything.
Improved Evasion: Whee, more dodging of Reflexes.
Greater Archery Style: It feels like we got to this rather quickly from the improved version, which means I'm a little concerned about dead/unexciting levels. I'm starting to think that the Styles that gain multiple things at these levels should be spread out more.
Extended Augment: Wait, what are these things its talking about? Oh, I see, we haven't learned any of them yet. Ok then, that's weird. Well, without knowing what they do, it seems alright, and certainly makes sense to affect your entire volley of arrows.
Improved Hidden Shooter: Why is this granting a bonus to all Hide checks? Can't you just remove the penalty to hiding after sniping? And maybe if firing from total concealment or total cover you don't need to make a new hide check?
Deadly Precision: Given that you may only make one attack a turn while sniping, I think this isn't too bad.
Elemental Arrow: The fluff feels very out of the blue. The class has been completely mundane, and now it's access "magic" to elementalize it's arrows. Where did that come from?! Mechanically, I don't understand why it neutralizes things like poison. The damage is equivalent to a sneak attack, but with none of the prerequisites...and Volley Archers can add it to every arrow they fire from Multishot? :smalleek: That is a very high amount of damage. I think to have this make more sense, I'd lower when it's acquired (make it early), tie it's uses per day to a mental stat so your class isn't totally SAD, and rejigger the damage (maybe 1d6 per 3 levels?).
Golden Arrow: So he gets a guaranteed hit (but is it a crit? does he roll anyway to see if he threatens?), no matter what? Wow, that is great with combined with Multishot and weapon enhancements. Instead of turning a single arrow into this thing, I'd make it something like a full round action that gives a penalty to AC as he focuses on a single shot to the exclusion of all else. Acquired earlier, like Elemental Arrow, and also tied to a mental stat.
Advanced Archery Style: I'd switch this name with Greater, since Greater just sounds like it's better than Advanced.
Rain of Arrows: First, I think this should be moved much lower, since it's the real "volley" effect. Get it at 1st or 5th level. Somewhere around there. Additionally, I'd rewrite it to be a lot more similar to the HoB volley rules. In this case, I'd say you make a full round action to target a 15' diameter area and fill it with arrows. An attack against a fixed AC of 15 (to hit the targeted squares), dealing damage based on your weapon if you hit, which creatures can Reflex save for half. Really, check out the HoB rules if you can. If you can't, well, I can take a swing at writing up an ability if you'd like.
Killing Shot: A -10 modifier to what? Attack? Hide? The ability to juggle penguins? When did he gain the ability to auto-crit while flanking? PEACH did the math on the coup de grace saves, which is obviously just stupid. I'd never both hiding and sniping, I'd just unload my attacks. I'll roll a 20 eventually, and then my target is just straight dead. I'm not sure what to do here (but it's late, so I'm not running at full capacity by now :smallwink:)
Supreme Archery Style: Sounds sweet. Capstone time baby! (though the lack of any new abilities since advanced should be tweaked.
Instinctual Lethality: This name sounds way more applicable to the Sniper Style, FYI. As PEACH mentioned, the crit bonuses are just kinda gravy, not anything that really blows one away. It's...well, it's generic. Nice, but not exciting or terribly unique.
Slaying Shot: Name sounds like an action, not a passive ability. What if the Sniper is using a weapon with a crit multiplier other than x3? Like the above, these crit bonuses are nice and all, but really do nothing except make something that occasionally happens and is exciting just bigger numbers.

Please don't take my critique to harshly, I'm just trying to offer constructive criticism and my thoughts. The class is certainly salvageable, a lot of the issues are numbers-based, not concept-based.

CrossyCross
2012-03-17, 12:01 PM
Honestly MammonAzrael, from Peach's response and the first part of your response, I was alreading thinking of scrapping this, but if you believe this can be salvaged, then I'll try my best.

Anyway, I nerfed the class. I don't think this is enough by any means, but I nerfed it, and we'll go from what we've got.

First off, yeah, I've been misusing 'cheesy'. I thought it was the same as broken. Stupid of me.

Anyway, I changed deadly skill. It's only your dex modifier now. Also, 'Archer not a Fighter' got changed a bit. You count your BAB as average for multiclassing; as if you BAB was the middle ground between awesome ragned attacks and horrible melee.

As for rapid shooting, the reason why I didn't choose rapid shot was because I specifically wanted the True Archer to be better than a fighter who just took rapid shot as a feat. I changed it instead to basically rapid shot for all attacks.

Sniping means if you hit with your attack after studying your opponent, you automatically critical. You have to hit first, as in roll to hit. As for confirming critical, if it's too much for an automatic crit, then yeah. You tell me if it's not. For the concentration checks, think of the True Archer as a wizard, so choose concentration DCs that way, only you don't add the spell level of the spell being cast, cause there's no spell, and you're just basically studying your opponents movements so you can predict where he'll move when you aim for his eye.

I changed improved range according to your suggestion, though I'm keeping overdraw 1 to 1 for now.

Multishot: You do know that multishot is basically just manyshot and improved manyshot together, right? Improved Manyshot takes off a limit to how many arrows you can fire. Admittedly, it's in epic level, but still, it's the same thing.
Anyway, I changed Eagle Eye so that's it's just a bonus to hit, so no bonus attacks. Does this mean I can changed Multishot to a no limit one? With the nerf, it basically is manyshot and turns into improved manyshot the moment you turn level 21, which coincidentally the same time you can get that feat.

For hidden shooter, I changed the bonuses. As for precision, what I put in right now was wrong, disregard that. I just put it in to have something there.
I liked your suggestion that it's basically just a bonus to hit for when you're taking penalties, but the problem is that there's already stuff like that. Improved Precise Shot already negates all concealment and cover penalties.
Unless...do you take penalties when you're entangled? Or like a spell that physically weakens you? If you do, precision could perhaps be an ability that negates those penalties, like focus under duress. But I don't know how to word that if there is. I'll need help.

Improved Hidden Shooter: Yeah, for some reason I missed what you said.Your suggestions are all good. Question is, just one of them, or both?

Deadly Precision: Uh-oh. You gain sniping bonuses for ALL attacks in the next turn. Overpowered then, huh? tell me how much even with the nerf.

Elemental Shot: It came from the original class from the D&D wiki. I thought it would be a way to cause more damage than normal, reserved for boss encounter, or for when the Sniper meets an enemy immune to critical. I weakened it. Tell me what you think. Also, it neutralizes poison because the arrow turns into its element. I don't think a poison would remain viable if it's on fire, or in contact with acid, or supernaturally cold, or not sticking to the arrow because it's lightning. Poison stays with golden arrow because it just turns into (magical) gold.
Golden Arrow: No, you do not critical with this. Ever. Unless you're a sniper, then you auto-hit and crit.
For both augments, I'd rather it stay at higher levels. As for what mental stat, what should I use? Intelligence? Wisdom? Or charisma? I'd rather it stay this way, but if you really think so...

I switched the names for greater and advanced.

Rain of Arrows: I nerfed it. No more rapid multishot of golden elemental arrows. Just four shots of golden elemental arrows at the max. Honestly, I want to keep the DC the same, so that it scales at higher levels. Tell me what you think.

Killing Shot: It's a minus to hit. I'm keeping the forced crit, but I dropped the coup de grace. And with the new eagle eyes, you can only get up to four attacks at level 20, disregarding magical weapons and stuff. So no, no ridiculous number of attacks.

A note about sniping though, since its lethality is from specific aiming, should I make it so that when splitting or multiplication of arrows you only critical with one arrow? Because unless the multiplied arrows all hit one spot, it doesn't make any sense for all of them to critical.

Instinctual Lethality: If you think it's not good enough, well, I don't really know what else to give the Volley Archer, since most of the problems seem to come from it.

Slaying Shot: Changed it to slayer. Also, perhaps it should instead be like

When sniping, you double the critical increase, so x2 to x3, x3 to x5, x4 to x7. And I should probably change it to just bows.

So, tell me what you think.

strider24seven
2012-03-17, 12:31 PM
@MammonAzrael:
I did indeed choose Souldrinking and Marrowcrushing over Wounding and Enervating because of the critical hits... on a normal weapon (crits on a 20), that translated to 2 "guaranteed" criticals with 40+ attacks. And because I like the BoVD :belkar:

@CrossyCross
Welcome to D&D and the forums, where monsters of character optimization lie (although the Char-Op isn't as terrifying here is at was on Brilliant Gameologists). Your class is looking much better now that munchkins like me can't have a field day. Rain of Arrows retains its to-hit roll still, which lets it carry "rider" effects like Wounding/Marrowcrushing/etc, even if Evasion would let you ignore the damage from it. I agree with MammonAzrael that you should read the volley rules from Heroes of Battle and make it available earlier (if you decide to use those rules). Sniping still needs a bit of fixing... the raw damage is still a tad high (most optimizers go dumpster diving for classes, feats, and weapons from different books to get damage like that). Your thoughts and ideas are in the right place, though, so I eagerly await the finished product of this class. I've always liked archers, but I've always found myself asking, "Why would I play an archery-focused fighter/ranger/rogue when I can just play a ray-focused wizard or a DMM archer cleric?"

(DMM is Divine Metamagic from Complete Divine, spend turning attempts for free metamagic, often paired with Persistent Spell from Complete Arcane)

Also, as a sidenote, so that I might not offend people, my way of judging homebrew is to try to break it as much as possible (disregarding pun-pun, infinite wishes, etc), and then compare it to previous, "official" builds like Cindy, the mailman, Lester the Molester, etc. to determine where it fits in the WotC power continuum. IMO most should land in the middle of the spectrum (Tier 3 if you use JaronK's system), and I try to offer suggestions to put the class in that general area.

MammonAzrael
2012-03-17, 06:25 PM
Honestly MammonAzrael, from Peach's response and the first part of your response, I was alreading thinking of scrapping this, but if you believe this can be salvaged, then I'll try my best.

Don't get me wrong, it could be a lot of work, but I think the concepts are there, and solid enough, that what you need to focus on is balancing the numbers. PEACH made excellent points, but I think his opinion that the class is unsalvagable is a bit pessimistic.


First off, yeah, I've been misusing 'cheesy'. I thought it was the same as broken. Stupid of me.

Not stupid, just a mistake. No big deal! :smallsmile:


Anyway, I changed deadly skill. It's only your dex modifier now. Also, 'Archer not a Fighter' got changed a bit. You count your BAB as average for multiclassing; as if you BAB was the middle ground between awesome ragned attacks and horrible melee.

I was thinking that instead of messing with BAB so much...

True Archers get the worst BAB progression (half level). Then you have Eagle Eye at every even level, adding directly to BAB, but only applying to ranged attacks. This gives you a full BAB for ranged attacks, and doesn't make multiclassing awkward.

Deadly Skill looks much better, and an important piece of making ranged equal to melee.


As for rapid shooting, the reason why I didn't choose rapid shot was because I specifically wanted the True Archer to be better than a fighter who just took rapid shot as a feat. I changed it instead to basically rapid shot for all attacks.

Completely understandable - it needs to be superior to a Fighter with Rapid Shot. Rapid Shot is basically a ranged version of Flurry of Blows, right? Like Flurry, I don't see any reason why it can't improve as you increase in level. Say at level one it only grants a single extra attack (with the -2 penalty), but you don't have to spend a full-round action to use it. Then as you gain levels you reduce the penalty to attack and add extra attacks. This makes it much less prone to dipping, and builds consistent skills.


Sniping means if you hit with your attack after studying your opponent, you automatically critical. You have to hit first, as in roll to hit. As for confirming critical, if it's too much for an automatic crit, then yeah. You tell me if it's not. For the concentration checks, think of the True Archer as a wizard, so choose concentration DCs that way, only you don't add the spell level of the spell being cast, cause there's no spell, and you're just basically studying your opponents movements so you can predict where he'll move when you aim for his eye.

Auto-crit is probably a little strong, given that it applies for an entire turn. What about:


Snipe Attack: You may spend a full round studying a target. You may move up to your move speed while studying a target, but otherwise cannot perform any actions. If you do, as long as the target is unaware of you or is denied a Dexterity bonus to AC, the next ranged attack you make on the following turn against the target automatically threaten a critical hit if it hits. If you take any damage while studying a target you must make a Concentration check (DC 10 + damage taken) or your study is ruined and you must start studying the target anew.

Then over the next 19 levels, you gain various bonuses, from extra attacks to bonuses to attack, damage, and crit confirmation rolls.


I changed improved range according to your suggestion, though I'm keeping overdraw 1 to 1 for now.

I would keep the text that I had in parenthesis. As it is now, it's ambiguous if you still apply the Far Shot bonus after doubling the range of your bow.

It is fine to keep Overdraw as it, but I'll reiterate that it likely will just gather dust.


Multishot: You do know that multishot is basically just manyshot and improved manyshot together, right? Improved Manyshot takes off a limit to how many arrows you can fire. Admittedly, it's in epic level, but still, it's the same thing.

The big difference is that Manyshot requires a standard action, which means it can't be used with full attacks, or bonus attacks. It's extremely limited. Multishot has none of those restrictions. Or rather, it did. Now...well, now you've nerfed it too much! :smalltongue: First, I'd probably switch Rain of Arrows and Multishot. After that, I'd let multishot add an additional arrow (just 1) to each attack you make, with a -2 to -4 penalty, and perhaps add an additional arrow at 20th or so.


Anyway, I changed Eagle Eye so that's it's just a bonus to hit, so no bonus attacks. Does this mean I can changed Multishot to a no limit one? With the nerf, it basically is manyshot and turns into improved manyshot the moment you turn level 21, which coincidentally the same time you can get that feat.

Eagle Eye looks much more balanced. Still a great boost, but not broken. And as I stated above, you missed one of the key limitations of Manyshot.


For hidden shooter, I changed the bonuses.

Looks fine, though you can drop the table and just say they get a +5 bonus if they have total cover or total concealment.


As for precision, what I put in right now was wrong, disregard that. I just put it in to have something there.
I liked your suggestion that it's basically just a bonus to hit for when you're taking penalties, but the problem is that there's already stuff like that. Improved Precise Shot already negates all concealment and cover penalties.
Unless...do you take penalties when you're entangled? Or like a spell that physically weakens you? If you do, precision could perhaps be an ability that negates those penalties, like focus under duress. But I don't know how to word that if there is. I'll need help.

I'll point you up to the suggestions I made for the Sniping ability. And while Improved Precise Shot does negate things, it's also got heft perquisites than you many not want.


Improved Hidden Shooter: Yeah, for some reason I missed what you said.Your suggestions are all good. Question is, just one of them, or both?

I'd go with both, at least to start with.


Deadly Precision: Uh-oh. You gain sniping bonuses for ALL attacks in the next turn. Overpowered then, huh? tell me how much even with the nerf.

Oh, I see the confusion. I was assuming when you said "sniping" you were referring to the sniping action in the Hide skill, which only allows for a single attack. If you were talking about the sniping ability from your class...well, this is why I suggest you change the name to something like Snipe Attack, to avoid this confusion. It doesn't help that Hidden Shooter refers to the skill ability, and not the class ability.

And yes, still way too powerful. You realize that extra damage would be multiplied on a crit, right?


Elemental Shot: It came from the original class from the D&D wiki. I thought it would be a way to cause more damage than normal, reserved for boss encounter, or for when the Sniper meets an enemy immune to critical. I weakened it. Tell me what you think. Also, it neutralizes poison because the arrow turns into its element. I don't think a poison would remain viable if it's on fire, or in contact with acid, or supernaturally cold, or not sticking to the arrow because it's lightning. Poison stays with golden arrow because it just turns into (magical) gold.
Golden Arrow: No, you do not critical with this. Ever. Unless you're a sniper, then you auto-hit and crit.
For both augments, I'd rather it stay at higher levels. As for what mental stat, what should I use? Intelligence? Wisdom? Or charisma? I'd rather it stay this way, but if you really think so...

The reason I suggest tying it to a mental stat is because right now this class is extremely SAD. While that may be good for optimization, it is not the hallmark of a well-designed class. As it stands now, the only stat you really care about it Dexterity. If I were playing something a ludicrous as a 16 point buy game, I'd be tempted to just get an 18 in Dex and 8 in the other 5 stats. That is how little this class makes me care about the other stats. If you do tie in another stat, I'd suggest either Int or Wis, depending on which you think fits better.

The weakened damage seems fine. Alternately, Elemental Arrow feels like it can be a variation of a Smite Evil Attack, with increasing usages per day and static damage bonuses.

The description doesn't give the feel that you're transmuting the arrow into some elemental bolt - it says the True Archer imbues the arrow, which implies to me that the arrow itself doesn't change at all. And it certainly doesn't seem to be unbalancing to not destroy poison.

As for Golden Arrow...I'm not sure. Auto-hitting is nice, but I don't know what the ultimate attack bonuses are going to look like, and if they're high enough then you'll be hitting most of the time anyways. I'd say that this ability is probably fine for now, but should probably be looked at closely once the dust settles elsewhere.


Rain of Arrows: I nerfed it. No more rapid multishot of golden elemental arrows. Just four shots of golden elemental arrows at the max. Honestly, I want to keep the DC the same, so that it scales at higher levels. Tell me what you think.

Better, but it still feels off. What do you think about the following:


Rain of Arrows: You can fire arrows with incredible speed, blanketing an area with a staggering number of shots. As a full-round action you may fire as many arrows as you choose (up to twice the number of arrows you are normally capable of firing as a full attack) at a 5' radius circle. You make a single special attack roll against AC 20, using only your base attack bonus, your Dexterity modifier, your MENTAL modifier, and any penalties (from range, rapid shooting, etc). If the attack hits, your arrows land in the targeted location.

If you miss, the arrows land somewhere - roll 1d8. This determines the misdirection of the attack, with 1 being straight back at you and 2 through 8 counting clockwise around the targeted area. The attack is off by 5 feet for each point you missed the target AC of 15 by.

Any creature in a square where an arrow lands takes damage as if hit by 1 quarter of the arrows you fired. A target may make a Reflex save for half damage (DC 10 + half your class level + your Dexterity(mental?) modifier).

First pass inspired by the volley rules in HoB. Thoughts?


Killing Shot: It's a minus to hit. I'm keeping the forced crit, but I dropped the coup de grace. And with the new eagle eyes, you can only get up to four attacks at level 20, disregarding magical weapons and stuff. So no, no ridiculous number of attacks.

Is this the class or skill sniping?


A note about sniping though, since its lethality is from specific aiming, should I make it so that when splitting or multiplication of arrows you only critical with one arrow? Because unless the multiplied arrows all hit one spot, it doesn't make any sense for all of them to critical.

I'm inclined to say yes, only one arrow per attack. The other arrows should have the chance to crit, since you can just get lucky, but only one should auto-crit.


Instinctual Lethality: If you think it's not good enough, well, I don't really know what else to give the Volley Archer, since most of the problems seem to come from it.

The issue is that crit is just the occasional number boost. Having new and unique options are more interesting. I'm currently unsure what a good choice will be, but I'll let you know if I think of anything.


Slaying Shot: Changed it to slayer. Also, perhaps it should instead be like

When sniping, you double the critical increase, so x2 to x3, x3 to x5, x4 to x7. And I should probably change it to just bows.

So, tell me what you think.

You can change it to just bows, but if you do everything should be bow-specific. Or you could just have all abilities key off ranged attacks, to allow the class some variety in non-bow weapons.

And like Instinctual Lethality, the crits are nice, but they're unexciting. It's just bigger numbers. What about trick shots, something like Penetrating Shot, ranged combat maneuvers, called shots, and so forth?


@MammonAzrael:
I did indeed choose Souldrinking and Marrowcrushing over Wounding and Enervating because of the critical hits... on a normal weapon (crits on a 20), that translated to 2 "guaranteed" criticals with 40+ attacks. And because I like the BoVD :belkar:

And apparently Enervating only applies to crits. Whoops, guess your BoVD choices were the right calls! :smalltongue:

Acanous
2012-03-17, 09:47 PM
To be completely fair to this class, I've seen a PO archery build pull off 7 ranged attacks by level 5.
Was a Barbarian/Ranger/Fighter tiny fey with a spike graft that added a ranged natural attack.
Took Two-Weapon Fighting, had Girallion Arms, Rapid Shot, Whirling Frenzy.
Had a couple flaws.

So 8 attacks at level 5 for this guy is just a smidge above what is possible for an optimized archer at current. But the True Archer doesn't GET 8 attacks at level 5, does he?

When I first read this, I didn't see Eagle Eye counting as BAB (Has that been changed?)
It seems to me from the wording that Eagle Eye is instead an untyped Bonus to attack rolls, you end up with a normal ammount of attacks at lv. 5 (2).
you immediately upgrade to 8 at level 6 because of Manyshot, which the optimized guy *Also* gets, which leaves Optimized Guy with more attacks; 2 from BAB, plus rapidshot, whirling frenzy, two weapon fighting, multishot, add his natural weapon, by the *Most Restrictive* interpretation of the rules, Optimized Guy gets 11 attacks to your 8. If TWF multiplies Rapidshot and Whirling Frenzy(Which I've seen arguments for), he's got 13. Both of you can use the same weapon enhancements.

So really, I'm not seeing how Volley Archer is overpowered, at all, before gaining the targetted AoE ability at level 15.
Even still, level 15 for a 3*3 radius attack is not out of line, especially when Wind Wall still renders the archer useless.

In fact, as far as I can see, the optimized little gremlin gets more attacks all the way up the tree. (He takes Fist Full of Arrows.) Given that the archer is limited to it's one attack method (Ranged attacks using arrows), I'd actually peg this class at tier 4.
With some decent magic items and practical optimization it might hit tier 3, but just barely, and since you don't get Use Magic Device as a skill, you'll be blowing a feat or multiclassing for it.

The Sniping Capstone is incredibly potent, but then again it's a 20 level class capstone.

Seems good, actually. I'd let this fly as currently shown.

MammonAzrael
2012-03-17, 10:08 PM
To be completely fair to this class, I've seen a PO archery build pull off 7 ranged attacks by level 5.
Was a Barbarian/Ranger/Fighter tiny fey with a spike graft that added a ranged natural attack.
Took Two-Weapon Fighting, had Girallion Arms, Rapid Shot, Whirling Frenzy.
Had a couple flaws.

That is a lot of optimization and work, while we were able to get absurd numbers with essentially no work at all. Big difference.


So 8 attacks at level 5 for this guy is just a smidge above what is possible for an optimized archer at current. But the True Archer doesn't GET 8 attacks at level 5, does he?

When I first read this, I didn't see Eagle Eye counting as BAB (Has that been changed?)

Yes, it's been changed. Eagle Eye originally added to BAB, meaning that at level 5 you had a BAB of +6/+1, and by level 20 a BAB of +26/+21/+16/+11/+6/+1. And yes, I mean BAB, not just bonuses to hit.


It seems to me from the wording that Eagle Eye is instead an untyped Bonus to attack rolls, you end up with a normal ammount of attacks at lv. 5 (2).
you immediately upgrade to 8 at level 6 because of Manyshot, which the optimized guy *Also* gets, which leaves Optimized Guy with more attacks; 2 from BAB, plus rapidshot, whirling frenzy, two weapon fighting, multishot, add his natural weapon, by the *Most Restrictive* interpretation of the rules, Optimized Guy gets 11 attacks to your 8. If TWF multiplies Rapidshot and Whirling Frenzy(Which I've seen arguments for), he's got 13. Both of you can use the same weapon enhancements.

Comparing what a class in capable of generically without optimization with a highly optimized build is not a good comparison.


So really, I'm not seeing how Volley Archer is overpowered, at all, before gaining the targetted AoE ability at level 15.
Even still, level 15 for a 3*3 radius attack is not out of line, especially when Wind Wall still renders the archer useless.

What do you find overpowered about Rain of Arrows? :smallconfused:

Agreed that the class is completely pwned by wind wall and similar effects, including natural wind. It needs a way to overcome these challenges. And early, or you'll be rendered irrelevant.


In fact, as far as I can see, the optimized little gremlin gets more attacks all the way up the tree. (He takes Fist Full of Arrows.) Given that the archer is limited to it's one attack method (Ranged attacks using arrows), I'd actually peg this class at tier 4.

With some decent magic items and practical optimization it might hit tier 3, but just barely, and since you don't get Use Magic Device as a skill, you'll be blowing a feat or multiclassing for it.

The tier system has nothing to do with the damage output a class is capable of. Your optimized gremlin is also likely tier 4. The tiers are a way to measure versatility as well as game power.

Though the class could use more versatility, in the vien of at least some things that aren't focused on combat.

Acanous
2012-03-18, 01:40 AM
The gremlin actually gets to 3, but low 3. (He gets a few other methods of attack, and incarnum/ToB things) but eh. I'm more comparing this to the tier system in regards to "When constructing a class, aim for tier 3".

This class is built around archery. It *Should* be compared to a character optimizing for archery through other means. If "Fighter" was constructed along optimizing for melee dominance, the class wouldn't suck nearly as hard(And would probably be warblade).
The Optimized Archer actually ends up doing it a little better, which is right around what should be granted by system mastery. The base class here does quite a bit without having to leave it.
Ideally, in my head, any class built around a single aspect of combat should be about 80% as good as a hodgepodge of PO stew trying to accomplish the same thing.
That way everyone still has fun without being dramatically overshadowed, and new players can contribute with veterans, without the latter feeling "ripped off".

Veklim
2012-03-18, 08:06 AM
The tier system is not meant to be used as justification of a horrifically OP class. I agree very strongly with MammonAzrael on most of his posting here, but this should be reinforced.
This class actually breaks fundamental balance issues the same way a wizard does, in far less areas, but still, this class is capable of almost completely disregarding CR altogether past about level 8, and with a little optimisation it could become something altogether wrong...

...and yet I still like the idea.

It's all about scale. With Eagle Eye, why not make it equal Dex modifier, up to a maximum of your actual BAB. Scales and limits that way, if you're feeling REALLy nice, make it an untyped bonus.

The wind issue could be solved nicely by taking a leaf out of Exalted's book ('There Is No Wind' charm, from the archery tree) and allow you to first negate natural weather conditions to ranged combat, then later allow you to ignore all weather conditions (mundane or supernatural). Probably looking at level 3 and 7 perhaps? This makes wind wall relevant for 2 levels (or 4 if you're an air domain cleric of course) but doesn't make it a permanent off button. The spell should present a problem for this class, but not for too long, imo.

DerTollUdo
2012-03-18, 03:19 PM
I have thoughts on this class. Lots of thoughts! Just no time lol. What I will say now are these: The number of attacks is not really an issue. Maybe later on, but probably not. Get a hand crossbow, get TWF tree, get Splitting, get Rapid shot, get Haste/speed enhancement. Gloat in your many attacks. At level 11 this would have 10 attacks that all split so like 20 hits. Not hard to do either.

And the Elemental Graft Buffeting Fists shuts this class, and all archery based classes, down. Hard. Deflect arrows = to dex mod +1 is a lot of arrows that never get to hit, and those that might get to are all the lowest BAB ones and thus less likely to anyway. I mention this because my DM loves that dang graft...anyone who doesn't have an explicit reason to not have it generally has it.

Perhaps make some ability to make arrows non deflectable.

Also, phasing arrows are cool. This class having them would be even more cool ;) maybe just for sniper...

And a note: This class would be tier 4. It is combat focused and does it very well. It does not, however, have much out of combat utility.

PEACH
2012-03-19, 11:10 AM
The fundamental problem with the tier system is that a broken T4 or T3 (I can never remember or honestly summon the will to care whether or not something that can easily break the game, but only in one specific way the DM can easily account for, is T3 or T4) is still horrible for the game, and possibly worse than an optimized party of T1s.

The problem with a class that gets to be, essentially, a permanently super optimized T4 is that it either wins all encounters, or it gets negated by fiat or something that, by RAW, shuts it down. That's not fun. A less optimal T4 may be theoretically weaker, but in real play that just means that the DM wouldn't have to create creatures 100% immune to ranged attacks so the fairly well played barbarian, who would be a more traditionally good but not amazing source of damage output, got a chance to hurt something.

I haven't had time to reread through the class changes, I just wanted to talk about that little bit of theory. Also, when I said I didn't think the class could be salvaged, I may have been being a bit too pessimistic; my opinion was more in line with "almost all the numbers need to be changed, and some things definitely need to be nearly scrapped (autocrits and multiplicative extra attacks, mostly)."

CrossyCross
2012-03-22, 03:25 PM
I modified the class a bit. Tell me what you think.

Overspecialization now means you get poor BAB for multiclassing.

Rapid Shooting now only provides an extra attack for every 5 LEVELS of True Archer over one. So no, no crazy bonuses for a one level dip. Although the -2 to hit can be negated by taking the improved rapid shot feat. I thought taking the feat should do SOMETHING for the true archer.
If it's still broken (probably is) tell me what I need to modify about the ability to make it not so broken. (maybe less attacks, or a higher penalty)

Sniping's been modified to (mostly) your specifications. It's still ALL attacks because I don't know how many automatic threatened crits is fair, but thing is, it's only a threatened critical now. And I think we should just use the rules for spellcasting, to the letter, but without the added spell level. Makes much more sense and is more realistic.
Link: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#concentration
Still, I have no idea how many automatic threatened criticals is fair. How much, do you think?

I changed the wording in improved range. This better?

Also, overdraw is now 2 to 1 exchange.

Multishot is now multiple manyshots once more, only the amount of arrows you can add is 1 + 1 for every 10 true archer levels you have above 6. Penalty is -2 for every arrow FIRED, not ADDED. What do you think?

Hidden Shooter's modifiers are different. I read the rulebook. You need at the very least light cover/concealment to snipe (skill). Doing so however, gives you a -20 penalty. This does not actually remove the bonuses cover/concealment gives, so at the very most, you get a -15 to hide thanks to the +5 granted by light concealment/cover. Besides, you can't actually be targeted when you have total cover/concealment (actually, this only works for cover. Total concealment, such as invisibility, gives you a +20 to hide when moving and +40 when still, so you pretty much can't be hit anyway)

Precision no longer gives you any bonuses to hit. It does however, negate all penalties to hit, excepting bonuses to AC (except for those granted by cover/concealment...and probably several others that are brought about by special abilities. You know what, I probably did this wrong. I need better wording. Any suggestions?)

I took MammonAzrael's suggestions for improved hidden shooter.

Deadly precision now adds half your ranks in damage and bonuses for critical confirmation rolls.

According to the fluff, this class is supposed to be completely martial, so elemental and golden arrows look strange on this class, now that I think about it. Perhaps you guys can give me suggestions for what they could be exchanged with? Maybe something that allows the true archer to bypass wind wall, or other effects that effectively negate archers?
If you do, then I need something to replace extended augment. Something either for level 10, or level 5, since the removal of extended augment means I can move up multishot to level 10. Makes much more sense that way.
If you think it should stay, though, what mental stat should I use for them, wisdom, or intelligence?
Any suggestions?

Rain of Arrows: I read up the volley from heroes of battle. Then I read MammonAzrael's suggestion...yeah, I really, for some reason, can't stand the thought of aiming at a predertemined AC. I want to aim at the AC of the enemy, and cause average damage on everyone in range. I REALLY want to keep the original version of rain of arrows.
Yeah, probably obssessing over this, but I'm not budging unless I get a REALLY convincing argument.

As for the final style abilities, I haven't changed them yet. I have no idea what to do with the volley one (which you all think is weak, or at the very least, not matching), and I have no ideas for the sniper path (which most think is overpowered).

Veklim
2012-03-22, 08:01 PM
According to the fluff, this class is supposed to be completely martial, so elemental and golden arrows look strange on this class, now that I think about it. Perhaps you guys can give me suggestions for what they could be exchanged with? Maybe something that allows the true archer to bypass wind wall, or other effects that effectively negate archers?

For Elemental Arrow:
An exhaustion ability which halves enemy movement (minus an additional 5ft per 3 levels after 10th) and leaves them fatigued for 1D4 rounds (+1 per 3 levels after 10th). DC= 10 + 1/2 class level + wisdom modifier (+1 per 3 levels after 10th)

For Golden Arrow:
How about the ultimate mundane attack, negate all magical effects/defences and DR for one attack. You attack your target as if it were an unarmoured squishy, regardless of their defences.

I believe both these effects can get away with being (Ex) without much fluff fixing and they give the archer unique (outside of spellcasting at least) abilities which fit the remit I think.


If you do, then I need something to replace extended augment. Something either for level 10, or level 5, since the removal of extended augment means I can move up multishot to level 10. Makes much more sense that way.
If you think it should stay, though, what mental stat should I use for them, wisdom, or intelligence?
Any suggestions?

You can keep the ability if you use the ideas I've outlined above, it still applies as a legit bonus for both effects and they're within reason for the level. They should certainly use Wisdom, it affects their spot check (which should be stonking btw) and fits the flavour of an archer-contemplative type class (which I see this as being).

CrossyCross
2012-03-24, 11:57 AM
I'll need a description of the exhaustion arrow to make it sound like something martial. Probably something along the lines of 'crippling shot', to be honest, since I have no idea how you can make someone suddenly exhausted without magic. If it's 'crippling' however, there should probably be limitations, like undead or constructs not being affected...

The replacement for golden arrow however sounds absolutely wondrous. :smallbiggrin: I just need an awesome description for it.

Also, how does wisdom affect their uses? Uses equal to their wisdom modifier? Or is it a certain number + wisdom? And should having a high wisdom actually make the arrows stronger?

DerTollUdo
2012-03-26, 11:17 AM
The exhaustion could be explained by hitting so hard it takes the breath out of and makes your knees buckle.
How's that?

CrossyCross
2012-03-28, 08:38 PM
Sounds more like stunning if you ask me...wait a minute...

Why don't we just switch it to stunning? That'll work and make MUCH more sense. Maybe a true archer aims for your skull, or uses a really heavy arrow, or something.

Also, I thought of something for the replacement for golden arrow.

Black Arrow (Su): At 14th level, the sniper true archer gains a deadly object given only to the most lethal of marksmen. Once per day he may turn one of his arrows into a Black Arrow. A black arrow ignores all damage reduction, hardness, and bonuses to AC that is not actual/natural armor or from dexterity (so all supernatural/magical/spell-like armor bonuses are negated). He must choose his Black Arrow before he makes the attack roll. He gains an additional use at 18th level. Note that black arrow does not negate poisons like elemental arrow, though using both together would.

Tell me what you think.

Magikeeper
2012-04-14, 01:29 PM
Nothing is stopping you from storing up golden arrows over a couple of days, nor is anything stopping you from passing them out to other archers. I don’t think this is intentional.

Ideas for the level 7 ability:

Grey Arrow (Su): At 7th level, the sniper true archer can increase the power of his arrows. Once per encounter he may turn one of his arrows into a Grey Arrow as a free action. A Grey arrow turns incorporeal as it approaches its target, only turning corporeal upon hitting its target (or upon missing the target). This allows the arrow to ignore any barriers that exist between it and its target (unless they would block an incorporeal creature), such as a normal wind wall, but does not ignore the armor of the target. A Grey arrow cannot be deflected by creatures and effects that cannot touch incorporeal objects, and other effects may fail (as normal for attacking incorporeal objects). If the target is incorporeal, then the Grey arrow hits as though it were a ghost touch weapon. The archer must choose to fire Grey Arrow before he makes the attack roll. He gains an additional use of this ability per encounter at level 12 and every 4 levels thereafter. This may be used in tandem with other special arrow abilities. The Grey arrow reverts back to a normal arrow one minute after this ability is used on it.

Blue Arrow (Su): At 7th level, the volley true archer can increase the power of his arrows. Once per encounter he may turn one of his arrows into a Blue Arrow as a free action. A Blue arrow surrounds itself with wind as it approaches its target. This wind melds with any pre-existing wind conditions, effectively creating a tunnel through any wind-based barriers and effects. This tunnel lasts until the end of the volley true archer’s turn, allowing the archer to fire normal arrows though the tunnel in order to ignore wind walls, storms, and other wind-related effects when attacking the target hit by the Blue arrow. If the blue arrow misses it is wasted and the tunnel disperses. The added winds also reinforce the blue arrow, causing it to count as a siege weapon for the purposes of effects that would be able to deflect it in addition to letting it ignore wind conditions. The volley archer must choose to fire a Blue Arrow before he makes the attack roll. He gains an additional use of this ability per encounter at level 12 and every 4 levels thereafter. This may be used in tandem with other special arrow abilities. The Blue arrow reverts back to a normal arrow one minute after this ability is used on it.


Ideas for Gold/Black arrow:

Right now Golden Arrow doesn’t fit volley at all. A volley archer wants to enable a volley, not auto-hit on one attack.

Golden Arrow (Su): At 14th level, the volley true archer can imbue his arrow with a destructive force other marksmen only dream of. Once per day he may turn one of his arrows into a Golden Arrow as a free action. A golden arrow surrounds itself with a destructive force, negating any magical barrier it crosses as though it were a disintegrate spell. A golden arrow is not effected by any barrier it negates. If shot at a non-magical object, such as a wall of stone, the golden arrow disintegrates up to 10 cubic feat of it as the spell but does not pass though the object. The volley archer must choose to use a Golden Arrow before he makes the attack roll. This may be used in tandem with other special arrow abilities. He gains an additional use of this ability per day at 18th level and every 4 levels thereafter. The gold arrow reverts back to a normal arrow one minute after this ability is used on it.

-------------------
An attempt to improve black arrow to be something worthy of a high level 1/day attack (since golden arrow would be an out-of-combat disintegrate at will if it was once per encounter):

Black Arrow (Su): At 14th level, the sniper true archer can imbue his arrow with a deadly force other marksmen only dream. Once per day he may turn one of his arrows into a Black Arrow. A black arrow ignores all damage reduction, hardness, and one specific type of armor bonus chosen when it is created (natural/natural armor/armor/dodge/dexterity/etc.). The arrow becomes a black streak that warps space as it approaches its target, ignoring any barriers and effects in its path as though it were on a plane with the dead magic trait. The magical abilities of the arrow still function. The streak can shift between coexistent planes as a free action, allowing it to ignore any barrier that does not exist on all such planes. For example, if fired on the material plane a black arrow could ignore a wall by temporarily shifting to the plane of shadow and then shifting back. The arrow could not shift to the astral plane, as that plane is merely coterminous with the material plane. This streak cannot be deflected by abilities or effects that could not deflect both a regular arrow and a magical ray attack. The sniper true archer must choose to use a Black Arrow before he makes the attack roll. He gains an additional use of this ability per day at 18th level and every 4 levels thereafter. This ability may be used in tandem with other special arrow abilities. The black arrow reverts back to a normal arrow one minute after this ability is used on it.


The plane shifting is a bit clunky though.


--------------
Anyway, I don't think the class needs auto-hits. What condemns archers is all of the random effects that simply negate ranged attacks. Archery would have a lot going for it if not for the fact everyone is immune to it.

Also, why doesn't eagle eyes increase your spot check? The -1 to spot per 10ft is a big issue for snipers and long-range archers.

EDIT: Also, I suggest you move the dex-to-damage ability to level 4 and overdraw to level 9. Bows are awesome at very low levels as it is. Better than melee. I think it would be better to give the class a +10 enhancement bonus to speed at first level instead.

toapat
2012-04-14, 02:27 PM
Oh god, so much information to digest. :smalleek:
Uhh, let me get to this one by one.
This one is to MammonAzrael's first reply.

For the sniper archer, yeah, I'm going to change that to ranks. Much less cheese and makes more sense.

As for the eagle eye bonus, I'd rather it only works as BAB for number of attacks and the amount you can take as a penalty for overdraw, dropping its ability to take feats and prestige classes since that apparently might me used for munchkinning. Oh, and it stops at +6, because being to effectively hit enemies five levels higher seems cheesy enough.

I read the epic progression rules, and they apparently mean that a level 40 fighter without any special effects or feats can only attack four times. The hell. I'm calling bullcr** on this. You're basically a war god by then and you can't swing your sword more than four times in six seconds? Come on!

I'd rather that yes, you can attack six time, but considering the problems mentioned in your later comment, then I'll just stick it to a normal attack bonus for now.

Assuming standard progression of BAB, a Full BAB character at lvl 40 would only recieve 6 attacks per round per weapon because post epic BAB is +1 every 2 levels regardless of prior progression

this build of archer seems pretty powerful though, especially when the volley archer is firing on anything with a footprint equal to or larger then 15x15

DracoDei
2012-04-15, 11:31 AM
Wikipedia-like cross-indexing:
A small collection of various other people's thoughts on related subjects. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152550)
Everything from PrCs, to ToB stuff, to feats with unique yet plausible-feeling effects that aren't just additional effects on the target, or things that make you more likely to hit with a given shot.