Min/Max suggestions?

[GoblinGilmartin]

I'm looking to put together a top ten list, something like "The Top Ten Feats no Min/Maxer should be without. Just feats that really speak to a powergamer

Does anyone have any suggestions?

[eggs]

Assume Supernatural Ability, Leadership, Undead Leadership, Dragon Cohort and Improved Cohort leap to mind.

[Coidzor]

It's a bit of a broad topic, really. Perhaps too broad for one list.

[GoblinGilmartin]

Just do your best. All suggestions welcome.

[HunterOfJello]

The list could be narrowed to the 10 most OP feats, but a list of 100 would likely be more accurate if you're listing tons of randomly good feats. Some feats are amazing for some classes and useless for others (Craven). Some feats are great for all classes (Nymph's Kiss). Being a bit more specific could help.


For a list of the best feats in the game:

Natural Spell
Divine Metamagic
Power Attack
Dragonfire Inspiration
Craven
Obtain Familiar
Leadership

Insane Defiance [Vile] from Elder Evils is my favorite feat that I haven't seen mentioned on the boards before.
Prerequisite: Base Will save +5.
Benefit: As an immediate action, whenever you are the target of a mind-affecting spell or spell-like ability, you can take 1 point of Wisdom damage to retarget the effect to another creature of your choice within the effect’s range.
The new target takes a –4 circumstance penalty on its saving
throw, if any, against that effect.
Special: If you cannot take ability damage, you cannot select this feat.

[Hirax]

Shock trooper

[Vizzerdrix]

Mother Cyst is powerful. same goes for Tomb tainted soul. Improved initiative has always been a must in my book as well.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm), Unearthed Arcana, page 170.

Mindsight, Lords of Madness, page 126.

Easy Metamagic, Dragon Magazine issue 325, page 62.

Arcane Thesis, Player's Handbook II, page 74.

Shock Trooper, Complete Warrior, page 112.

[Suddo]

Dragonwrought, Race of the Dragon page 100
Iron Will (because its dirt cheap to get and can be shuffled away)
Item Familiar
Mindsight
Shock Trooper
Easy Metamagic
Alternate Spellsource (may not be the most common but makes Theurging easy)
Heighten Spell and/or Earth Spell(Beyond Early entry I never really liked these feats and boy can they early entry)
Divine Metamagic

I think that's what I can think of off the top of my head (not the biggest min/maxer)
If you consider Heighten and Earth Spell as one Leadership would be the next guy, just because.

[Prime32]

Depends heavily on the build. Shock Trooper is a great feat for a barbarian but it's not going to make him stronger than a druid, regardless of whether the druid took Natural Spell. Then there's things like that feat that grants pounce - all fighting men want pounce, but there are a lot of other ways to get it so the feat doesn't get taken that often.


And what about "feat taxes", where you need a feat to make your build work properly? Examples:

Adaptive Style (swordsages)
Combat Reflexes (defensive builds) - follow up with Improved Trip or Stand Still
Entangling Exhalation (dragonfire adepts; anyone with a breath weapon)
Item Familiar (truenamers)
Natural Spell (druids)
Power Attack (two-handed weapon wielders) - follow up with Leap Attack and/or Shock Trooper
Two-Weapon Fighting (anyone wielding two weapons)

[JeminiZero]

Versatile Spellcaster: In theory, lets your wiz/beguiler ultimate magus spontaneously cast anything from his spellbook, using beguiler slots. But its great for full spontaneous casters in general.

[Rejusu]

I wouldn't say a top 10 even exists. The best feats are always going to depend on the build you're doing. About the best you could come up with is ones that are the most generally useful. But even then you'd be hard pressed to find feats that are both good and useful to everyone.

I guess you could have Improved Initiative in there.

[Particle_Man]

Iron Will (because its dirt cheap to get and can be shuffled away)

I know you put on a qualifier, but I find it amusing that Iron Will got mentioned before Improved Initiative, given that people were on another thread saying I should ditch the former for the latter. :smallsmile:

Oh, and Natural Spell if you are a druid, I guess. Not much use if you are not though. Hmmm . . . how does one do a general list?

[Snowbluff]

Versatile Spellcaster: In theory, lets your wiz/beguiler ultimate magus spontaneously cast anything from his spellbook, using beguiler slots. But its great for full spontaneous casters in general.

In theory could be use to cast higher levels spells than you should be able to XD

[Person_Man]

If you have access to magic, virtually all of your Feats should be Metamagic. If you have access to Turn Undead, you should pick at least one Divine or Domain feat. Otherwise, it's highly debatable and dependent on your build.

Generically strong Feats for almost any build:


Item Familiar: Very large bonus to 1 Skill, and various other perks. Unearthed Arcana.

Shape Soulmeld + Open Chakra: Soulmelds offer a huge range of different abilities, and most of them can be accessed with just 2 feats. Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, flight, natural weapons, telepathy, animate dead, an many others. Magic of Incarnum.

Martial Study + Martial Stance: Same deal as Shape Soulmeld, and perhaps more so. Tome of Battle.

Arcane Schooling: You’re treated as having one level of one arcane class for the purpose of activating spell trigger items. Non-casters will probably want to select Sorcerer, a Sorcerer or Wizard can take this to get access to obscure arcane spells from another class (like Wu Jen or Hexblade or a prestige class) that they'd like to put into a wand or staff. Hello buff spells, good bye UMD! Player’s Guide to Faerun pg 33.

Fearless Destiny: Once per day when you are reduced to -10 or fewer hit points, you are instead reduced to -9 and stable. Races of Destiny pg 152.

Vile feats: There are many strong Vile options, and the benefits often improve as you take more Vile feats. Examples include Chosen of Evil, Insane Defiance, Dark Speech, Abominable Form, Chosen of Evil, Slave to Evil, and Deformity (Tall). Elder Evils, Champions of Ruin, Heroes of Horror, Book of Vile Darkness.

Tomb Tainted Soul: You are healed by negative energy and harmed by positive. Since there are a number of ways to get at-will negative energy attacks, this basically gives you unlimited healing. More importantly, your allies can dump Uttercold or Enervated spells in the middle of combat to heal you and harm (non-undead) enemies. Libris Mortis pg 31.

Winged Warrior: As a Move Action you can create a hemisphere of concealment (for those in the cloud) and total concealment (for those trying to look into the cloud) around you. Use any Standard Action ability. If it's a spell, use the Mobile Spellcasting feat to move as part of that action. Otherwise, find some other way of getting free or Swift Action movement (such as Hustle, Travel Devotion, Flicker, etc). Then use your Move Action to activate Winged Warrior to defend against counter attacks. Races of the Wild pg 153.

[2xMachina]

I know you put on a qualifier, but I find it amusing that Iron Will got mentioned before Improved Initiative, given that people were on another thread saying I should ditch the former for the latter. :smallsmile:

Oh, and Natural Spell if you are a druid, I guess. Not much use if you are not though. Hmmm . . . how does one do a general list?

Suddo means getting it through Otyuth Hole. Pay 3k, get a feat (from a small list, so you can't choose Imp. Init with that. Iron Will is probably the best feat there, unless you want something for a prereq.)

[Particle_Man]

Suddo means getting it through Otyuth Hole. Pay 3k, get a feat (from a small list, so you can't choose Imp. Init with that. Iron Will is probably the best feat there, unless you want something for a prereq.)

Ok, what is that?

[Prime32]

Arcane Schooling: You’re treated as having one level of one arcane class for the purpose of activating spell trigger items. Non-casters will probably want to select Sorcerer, a Sorcerer or Wizard can take this to get access to obscure arcane spells from another class (like Wu Jen or Hexblade or a prestige class) that they'd like to put into a wand or staff. Hello buff spells, good bye UMD! Player’s Guide to Faerun pg 33.Eh, easier just to dip cleric with the Magic domain, and get access to two spell lists (plus a Devotion feat or something).

[Rejusu]

Ok, what is that?

An otyugh hole is an extraordinary location from Complete Scoundrel. In a nutshell you pay 3k GP and you get a free feat. Only prerequisites are that you're 3rd level or above. In fluff terms it's actually an extreme form of solitary confinement/torture and you have to spend a week down there to gain it's benefits. Feats you can choose are:
Extend Rage, Iron Will, Menacing Demeanor, or Skill Focus (Intimidate).

You still need to meet the prerequisites. Most people go for Iron Will because it's one of the better ones and it's commonly used as a prerequisite for a lot of PrC's. Either way 3k for a feat aint too shabby.

[Suddo]

An otyugh hole is an extraordinary location from Complete Scoundrel. In a nutshell you pay 3k GP and you get a free feat. Only prerequisites are that you're 3rd level or above. In fluff terms it's actually an extreme form of solitary confinement/torture and you have to spend a week down there to gain it's benefits. Feats you can choose are:
Extend Rage, Iron Will, Menacing Demeanor, or Skill Focus (Intimidate).

You still need to meet the prerequisites. Most people go for Iron Will because it's one of the better ones and it's commonly used as a prerequisite for a lot of PrC's. Either way 3k for a feat aint too shabby.

So the combo, over all, is:
Spend a week in the Hole and pay 3k.
Cast Embrace the Dark Chaos* to replace Iron Will with Abyssal Heritage feat (paying 250 XP)
Cast Shun the Dark Chaos* to replace the Abyssal Heritage feat with any feat you qualify for (paying 250 XP)
So you gain any feat by spending: 1 week, 3,000gp and 500 XP. Which isn't that much at Level 15th level (the time you can cast 8th spells as Wiz or Cleric)



*(8th level spell, Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss)

[Rejusu]

So you gain any feat by spending: 1 week, 3,000gp and 500 XP. Which isn't that much at Level 15th level (the time you can cast 8th spells as Wiz or Cleric)

Well technically you don't actually pay for the hole, after all it's supposed to be a torture pit. People generally don't pay for the experience of being tortured :smalltongue:

Unless you happen to be into that...

Anyway it's just the "ability value" there for DM reference so they can decide to give you 3,000GP less in treasure. In character builds people just pay the cost of it though. It's more like a penalty to your WBL rather than an actual cost you have to pay though.

[Ezekiul]

Things I think of (some of which aren't feats but general aids):
Casters:
-Reduced or free metamagics/metapsionics
-PrCs like Anima Mage and Incantatrix
-Divine Metamagic, Easy Metamagic, Arcane Thesis, etc.
-Metamagics to reduce: Quicken, Persistent, Twinned, and Empower Spell

Martial:
-Damage
-Raw damage (Power Attack>Shock Trooper)
-Extra source stacking (Sneak Attack/Skirmish/Craven/Iaijustu Focus)
-Martial Maneuvers* (not too up to date on ToB min/maxing)
-PrCs like Frenzied Berserker, Hulking Hurler, Warhulk

-Special Maneuvers
-Tripping/grappling/disarm/AoOs
-Getting large (Enlarge person, Expansion, Jotunbrud)
-Getting reach (spiked chain/Inhuman Reach/getting large)
-Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit/Thicket of Blades/Difficult Terrain

Class Abilities:
-Enhancing
-Natural Spell
-Dragonfire Inspiration
-Item Familiar
-DC boosting, Ability Focus, etc

-Obtaining
-Obtain Familiar
-Wild Cohort
-Martial Study/Martial Stance
-Open Chakra/Shape Soulmend/Essentia
-Leadership feats/cohorts

-Multi-classing/Theurging (Shneeky's 1+1=3)
-Swift Hunter
-Daring Outlaw
-Asetic Feats (Mage/Knight/etc)
-Anima Mage, Sorcadins, Bardblades

And the key ingrediants for Min/Maxing....
Prestigitation and Ghost Sound! So you can make the wind blow your cape, play your theme music, and increase your awesomeness by 1000%!

Hope this helps! :smallbiggrin: