D&D3.5.2 (3.5 Retool, PEACH, WIP)

[Noctis Vigil]

This is an idea that has been bouncing around in my head for ages, and I'm finally putting it down on paper (in a manner of speaking): the 50-level retool. I will be gradually over time reworking all the core classes from the PHB to span 50 levels instead of 20, and by necessity reworking a great deal of the little things that make the game work as a result.

Let's start with the little things that are getting reworked: BAB, spells/magic, feats, saves, stat increases, gestalt, multiclassing, and monsters.

BAB: BAB has been reworked to give an increased iterative every +10 instead of +5, capping out at +50/+40/+30/+20/+10 at level 50 for a full-BAB class.

Spells/magic: spell levels have been completely reassigned. Access to spells of 8th and 9th level doesn't occur until at least level 30+ now, making things like Miracles and Wishes harder to earn but more rewarding when you finally get there. Additionally, all spells require a focus to cast now unless the specific class states otherwise (this will be expanded upon in the specific classes that use magic).

Feats: feats are now gained at 1st level then every 4th level, as opposed to the current every 3rd level. This balances how many feats you get slightly against the longer class-relevance value, making sure feats continue to progress slower than class features, even on slower progressing classes. Additionally, some feats will be reworked to function smoother. Epic feats will be getting reworked into non-epic feats at some point.

Saves: saves will still start at two on a good save, but will progress slightly slower than before.

Stat Increases: Stat increases from leveling up now happen every 5th level, instead of every 4th.

Gestalt: this system is not really designed with gestalt in mind, and while yes, it would work, it is not recommended at all.

Multiclassing: this system is designed to grow into power over a much longer period of time. As such, there is no experience penalty for multiclassing. However! One class must be designated as your main "job" so to speak, and you must have more individual levels in that class than you do in any other at any given time (so if you're primary is Rogue, you can have Rogue 7/Wizard 6/Cleric 6/Fighter 6, but you'd have to take another level of Rogue before you could level any higher in one of the three classes you have at level 6).

Monsters: many of the PHB monsters will need reworking to remain relevant at high level play, and possibly some of the mechanics behind them. Expect more on this later.

Base Classes:
Barbarian (undone)
Bard (undone)
Cleric (partly done) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236141)
Druid (undone)
Favored Soul (partly done)
Fighter (partly done)
Monk (undone)
Paladin (undone)
Ranger (undone)
Rogue (undone)
Sorcerer (partly done)
Wizard (partly done)

Classes will be posted in their own threads and linked to in this post/thread as I create them.

Please keep in mind that this is still just a concept at the moment. If you have any thoughts on how to help me rework the game to go for 50 levels, please post them here, even if it's only a minor rule, spell, feat or what have you that will need adjusting. Suggestions for an actual name for this system would be hot too, because D&D3.5.2 is lame. :smalltongue:

Also, if you have any specific classes you want to see reworked for a 50-level setup, poke me and I may add it to the list (these will be on hold until after the core classes are done, though).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Can I ask why you want a 50-level system? Will leveling up occur faster?

[Hyudra]

I have to wonder about the 50 levels, myself. As the old adage goes, KISS; keep it simple, sally.

I'd add monster CRs to the list of essential things to fix, as well. Too many monsters over/under CR'ed.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Can I ask why you want a 50-level system?

This is my question as well. Given that most of your changes thus far are just stretching what you'd get in 20 levels out to 50 levels, what is the reason I'd want to play this version of the game? Currently, it just seems like more book-keeping, since there are more levels and, from what you've shown us so far, not much else.

Give me something to pique my interest: why is this 50 level version supposed to be better? What's the reason I'd want to play it over the 20 level version?

I saw your Cleric work so far, and I was incredibly unimpressed. There doesn't seem a reason to stretch the class over 50 levels: there are just more levels where I don't feel like I got anything useful at all. Unless we consider gaining 1 extra spell of a level below my highest something worth leveling up for (which I don't), I count 29 effective dead levels, which is incredibly boring to me as a player.

And it bogs down combat excessively. HP increases by a factor of about 2.5, while damage seems roughly similar...thus, combat duration increases by a factor of 2.5.

[Hyudra]

I'd say the priorities would be...

A) Balance. OP uses the word once in his/her post, and it's in reference to the number of feats, not parity between classes/roles/whatever else.
Classes, ideally, would aim for a point of balance close to what tier 3 classes offer in standard 3.5.
Races should be roughly on par.
Feats need to be tweaked to eliminate the prime offenders in unusable & overpowered cases.
Weapons, armor, etc. ideally, should be balanced against one another.
Monsters need their CRs tested and adjusted.

B) Playability.
Classes should be fun to play and to play alongside. This means a bit more priority on quantity and quality of active choices rather than passive benefits. At the same time, though, what's offered can't bog down play or involve large amounts of bookkeeping, as these make the game less fun to play, both for the player in question and the others at the table.
Monsters need to be easy for a DM to run and interesting to fight. One big bruiser should not be indistinguishable from the next.
Gear - ties into the balance point regarding weapons, above. If a player has a concept in mind for a fighter with an axe in one hand and a shield in another, there should be options and choices available that make spear use viable, and not strictly subpar to, say, a greatsword fighter.
Races - This is up for debate, but personal beliefs lean towards the idea that any race should offer benefits to more than one archetype. This would probably amount to players selecting from a list of racial options, so a dwarf could pick options that suit him as a spellcaster.
No dead levels - they aren't fun, they're dumb, and there's enough ideas out there that you can fill that level with something.

C) Fixes
CR system. Again, it's broken.
The core math of the game changes to encourage a sort of 'rocket tag' well before the party's levels are in the teens...
Killing something with a sword gets slower and slower as levels rise. Monster HP increases faster than weapon damage does, barring certain cases.
AC becomes obsolete. To-hit bonuses increase faster than the overall average AC.
Magic offers more save-or-lose/die/suck effects as you gain levels.
These three factors (or the first and the third, primarily) render melee obsolete unless said melee can pull some stunt to take most/all of a monster's HP in one-two rounds of combat, at higher levels. (ie. a pounce barbarian or ubercharger)
Archery doesn't work. It requires too high a feat investment to get around drawbacks, and is very easy to shut down with even low level spells.

[Noctis Vigil]

That's a lot more than I was expecting to find. It usually takes several days before my posts get any notice...

Anyways, I'll start by saying that this is still very early planning phases, not even what I would call beta yet. I have yet to finish a single class, after all (and of course a class that's 1/3rd done is going to be a little boring, Djinn, I haven't added everything yet; I just put it up to get opinions on blatant mechanics issues).

As for why...Mostly because I like long games. I like to start at level one or two and play till well into epic, which comes too early IMHO. High level spells come too early (indeed, most spellcasting of 9th level is epic in a manner of speaking, and very easy to break), while warriors don't get enough power to compete. By stretching the system out to 50 levels, I hope to make Fighters and other combat classes more relevant for far longer. My goal here is partly because I want to, partly in an attempt to increase balance between classes (or at least make melee classes useful for longer), and partly to attempt to eliminate the need to change rules at epic levels.

Hyudra: I'm still allowing 9th level spells to exist, so I've already surpassed T3 on the class scale. But yes, my goal is to make every class at least that level of useful (for example, Fighters are going to be getting some skill monkey added in, as well as increased damage and crit, plus bonus feats as a standard Fighter). I currently have no plans to do a total retool of weapons/armor/gear, but I may tweak it as necessary should a problem arise. I already said I would be tweaking feats as needed as well. As for races, do you really think the core PHB races need rebalancing for this? I could, but I'm not sure I need to. General consensus on this, people?

As for playability, as I rework classes, I fully intend to look for any instance where I can pull out abilities with X uses a day/week/month/whatever, and replace them with more versatile powers usable at will (such as the Smite ability for Paladins).

Monsters...I'll admit, I may need help with that. Monsters are in no ways my forte. As for CR, I know it's broken, and I'm not sure how to fix it at the moment. Suggestions anyone?

As for dead levels, I'll do my best, but I make no promises that there won't be any at all, especially on full casters (they get spells each level). I am, however, giving casters some at-will powers (Holy Gifts for Clerics, Arcana Control for Wizards, Bloodrights for Sorcerers and Holy Blood for Favored Souls). These will be things you build up over time, so you could choose several weak at-will powers or have one or two powerful at-will abilities.

As for the combat/math aspect, I'll need to do some testing once I get more of the classes done. I think at least some of the rocket tag and obsoleting of melee will be alleviated by stretching casting out and slowing down of how fast spells are gained (seriously, 8th level spells show up at level 31 at the earliest now). AC does need work; I'll put some thought into it. Once again, suggestions?