Optimizing a -Martial Rogue-

[Hazuki]

Hey, all. I need help optimizing a Rogue using the Martial variant from Unearthed Arcana

No Tome of Battle or Campaign Specific material, please.

Starting at level 7, no flaws, playing as a Human, nothing to to with Sneak Attack.

No reliance on magical items would be greatly preferred.

Thanks in advance. :smallsmile:

[NeoSeraphi]

You should play a two-weapon fighting character with my Two-Weapon Defense feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11871234&postcount=24), if you're looking to optimize AC.

[Curmudgeon]

I'm confused. You've linked to a homebrew class with the same name as a multiclassing feat which stacks Rogue + Swashbuckler levels. But then you refer to a Rogue variant, which only makes sense if you're actually referring to having Rogue levels and the multiclassing feat rather than the homebrew class. How do you see qualifying for Daring Outlaw? You need sneak attack +2d6, and the Martial Rogue (file:///D:/FRP/Hypertextd20/www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) doesn't get any sneak attack. Martial Study + Martial Stance would be the obvious answer, but these are both from Tome of Battle and you said you don't want any material from that book.
:confused:

[Hazuki]

If you'd bothered looking at the link I'd posted, you'd see that it's a Homebrew Base Class I'm using.

[gbprime]

Well I was going to ask why not just use Rogue/Swashbuckler like everyone else, but I see why now. Full BAB and 10 skill points a level, and chock full of goodies at every level?

Planning on standing next to a few T1 casters, are we?

[Curmudgeon]

If you'd bothered looking at the link I'd posted, you'd see that it's a Homebrew Base Class I'm using.
Yes, I see that; I expanded my first message to explain why that doesn't make any sense. You can't use a Rogue variant if you're not using any Rogue levels.

[gbprime]

You can't use a Rogue variant if you're not using any Rogue levels.

This. But I suppose if your DM allows this homebrew class, they may also allow you to take alternate class features of a class you don't have as well. :smallconfused:

[Hazuki]

Yes, I see that; I expanded my first message to explain why that doesn't make any sense. You can't use a Rogue variant if you're not using any Rogue levels.


This. But I suppose if your DM allows this homebrew class, they may also allow you to take alternate class features of a class you don't have as well. :smallconfused:My DM has allowed me to take it.

Now, is anyone going to post anything productive or are they just going to bellyache? :smallannoyed:

[NeoSeraphi]

If you're starting at 7th level, you'll definitely want to take the Combat Reflexes feat, so that you can get a lot of use out of your Riposte class feature.

[Curmudgeon]

Now, is anyone going to post anything productive or are they just going to bellyache? :smallannoyed:
Since you're talking about a homebrew class with a further homebrew modification, maybe you would have more "productive" feedback in the Homebrew Design forum (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=15). The usual expectation if you're posting in the D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 forum is that you expect answers based on the rules for D&D 3e/3.5e/d20.

[Hazuki]

...I am expecting answers based on D&D 3.5. I'm not going to argue on what qualifies as what, but I'm not using a homebrew D&D system or anything of the kind, simply a homebrew class that has extreme similarities to another class.

It's a simple concept to grasp.

[NeoSeraphi]

Combat Expertise is an excellent feat to increase your AC. It's much better than fighting defensively for a TWF, since you can use it with every attack in the round.

[Red_Dog]

...I am expecting answers based on D&D 3.5. I'm not going to argue on what qualifies as what, but I'm not using a homebrew D&D system or anything of the kind, simply a homebrew class that has extreme similarities to another class.

It's a simple concept to grasp.

Curmudgeon is right, perhaps Homebrew forums will be more of help. Be that as it may, if you want effective help with this using 3.5 rules =>

=>Do NOT take TW defense its HORRID. If you want extra AC, an animated Shield or Improved Buckler defense are your best friends for ever.

=>Your class allows UMD. Max ranks and you'll be fine. Pick up/steal few wands of displacement/battlefield controlling spells, or just make friends with the party's T1 for a proper battlefield Control.

=>Dual wielding is all good and fun. But you need a method of dealing damage (aka mattering). Does you class have Pounce? If no, than charging will loose appeal. Alternative dynamic to charging would be using sneak attack to more than bags of d6s.

Sneak attack gives access to such things as Terrifying Strike, Sickening Strike, and *drumroll* staggering strike! Staggering strike is soooo good you won't need to sak dmg while you use it! Even better you can obtain it by lvl6! This way, anyone who decided to fight you can't even full attack you (pretty much ever) which makes you more survivable. Keep in mind that both Sickening and Terrifying strikes allow NO save and have easily matchable reqs. They both come from Drows of the Underdark, staggering strike I think comes from complete adventurer. If I am not mistaken there are some other semi useful ambush feats. Scoundrel has plenty to look thru... not much to look at tbh.

Last but not least, you could easily pick up Mage Slayer feat chain. It makes you dangerous to anyone with a knack to casting. Mage Slayer by itself will be pretty great, and with pierce magical concealment/protection you will be likely to rip thru careless mages.

I would think about knocking down 10+int to 6+int... Just saying that to my memory NO class has 10... and Factotum has 6.



Well I was going to ask why not just use Rogue/Swashbuckler like everyone else, but I see why now. Full BAB and 10 skill points a level, and chock full of goodies at every level?

Planning on standing next to a few T1 casters, are we?

Pish pash! Arcane Thesis Silent Still Extended Image FTW. ^^

[NeoSeraphi]

=>Do NOT take TW defense its HORRID. If you want extra AC, an animated Shield or Improved Buckler defense are your best friends for ever.


...I pray that you are referring to the actual WotC feat chain and not the suggested feats I wrote that I posted earlier in the thread.



I would think about knocking down 10+int to 6+int... Just saying that to my memory NO class has 10... and Factotum has 6.


Just so you know, the changeling rogue racial substitution levels from Races of Eberron have 10+int.

[Red_Dog]

...I pray that you are referring to the actual WotC feat chain and not the suggested feats I wrote that I posted earlier in the thread.

Referring to WotC feat chain as it the only one I know as I was asked for 3.5 advise? not 3.5 homebrew advise? I would have no bad or good comment on your feat chain at all ^^.



Just so you know, the changeling rogue racial substitution levels from Races of Eberron have 10+int.

Well what do you know ^^. I believe you as I do not play with ebberon [warforged are pretty awesome in terms of RP, everything else does not really appeal to me much to me], so I would not know. Than again, ebberon contains Planar Sheppard... so I would not be surprised at this.

Thank you for pointing this out! ^^

[gbprime]

Look, no offense, but you're taking a home-brewed class with more skill points than pun-pun, a home-brewed feat chain that effectively grants a shield bonus equal to your character level, and taking an ACF for a class you don't have.

Exactly what advice are you looking for? There's nothing in the way of official feats that is as efficient as what you've cobbled together. And with a DM who is accommodating this already, it's reasonable to assume (s)he would allow further customization of feats rather than anything we suggest.

For example, as an honest and serious suggestion I would say to take Combat Expertise and Deadly Defense, as the first enables more use of your Riposte ability while the second just increases your damage output. And since you're looking at dropping all those sneak attack dice for bonus feats, you also want to add Improved Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes (as previously suggested) and Robilar's Gambit.

The total result of that would be that you are impossibly hard to hit, get an attack of opportunity every time they try to hit you, and another attack of opportunity if all of those attacks miss. Throw on some bonus damage and a method of reducing your opponents to a single attack and you're golden.

But... given what you've already lined up for your character to take, are you honestly going to settle for Deadly Defense since it just adds a flat 1d6 damage? Would you not also home-brew THAT feat as well to scale up as you level? (Using the devotion feats as a model for say, 1d6 bonus damage plus an additional 1d6 for every 6 character levels, topping out at +4d6 at 18th level?)

So really this IS a question for the home-brew forum, in my opinion.

[gbprime]

Just so you know, the changeling rogue racial substitution levels from Races of Eberron have 10+int.

Yes, but they don't also have full BAB and INT synergy on both skills and damage...

[Hazuki]

Alright, I can see where you're coming from. But most games only use a certain amount of Homebrew, and I didn't want to use any more of it. That's why I asked for advice using 3.5 rules.

[Coidzor]

Well I was going to ask why not just use Rogue/Swashbuckler like everyone else, but I see why now. Full BAB and 10 skill points a level, and chock full of goodies at every level?

Planning on standing next to a few T1 casters, are we?

Now, the class writeup has been taken down, but I don't see how that's possible if the character isn't already a caster and refuses to make use of UMD and WBLmancy or use even something as minor as a minor cloak of displacement for an always-on miss chance.

[NeoSeraphi]

Yes, but they don't also have full BAB and INT synergy on both skills and damage...

I'm not attempting to justify the Daring Outlaw. I was just informing Red_Dog that there was, in fact, a WotC class with that amount of skill points, since he said he couldn't think of one.

[Rossebay]

...I am expecting answers based on D&D 3.5. I'm not going to argue on what qualifies as what, but I'm not using a homebrew D&D system or anything of the kind, simply a homebrew class that has extreme similarities to another class.

It's a simple concept to grasp.

No, it really isn't. You're using a non-existent class with a non-existent feat chain and an alternate class feature illegally, as it is from another class.

-----

Anyway, switch in a level of Barbarian for Pounce (Lion Totem Barbarian [CDiv]) and Whirling Frenzy [UA] rage variant. Ask your DM to make Righteous Wrath actually do something, and allow you to use any skills while raging.

Beyond that, I'd honestly suggest taking one level of [B]Wizard for Abrupt Jaunt [PHBII]. You get spellcasting there, too. And another bonus feat via Martial Wizard [UA]. Whether or not you want to take a few levels of Abjurant Champion [CMage] later on is up to you. If you do want to follow that route, the 1st level of Spellsword [CWar] and some Twilighted [PHBII] Githcraft [DMGII] (or other craft template) Mithril armor may prove useful.

Two-Weapon Fighting as a feat chain really won't hurt here. If your DM is strict and you've taken the spellcasting route, Somatic Weaponry (can't recall source) will be your friend.

If you don't want Abrupt Jaunt, Dragon Magazine 338 has the Staff of the Magi Alternate Class feature. Ask him to let you imbue another weapon, like a dagger or a longsword or something, and channel spells along with whatever other benefits.

A few levels of Factotum[Du] really couldn't hurt either, if you're looking to multiclass any more. I wouldn't suggest using Factotum at all in conjunction with the spellcasting idea, as you'd get few levels of Daring Outlaw in. But that's just me.

[Curmudgeon]

Beyond that, I'd honestly suggest taking one level of Wizard for Abrupt Jaunt [PHBII]. You get spellcasting there, too. And another bonus feat via Martial Wizard [UA].
There's a small number of uses (INT mod/day) of Abrupt Jaunt, and that's limited to 10' teleports. Really, a 1-level dip into Cloistered Cleric would be better. You get 3 domains: Knowledge and two others, of which you can pick Travel. Knowledge can be converted to the Knowledge Devotion feat, giving bonuses to attack and damage based on the 6 Knowledge skills relating to creatures. Travel can be converted to Travel Devotion to let you move your speed as a swift action for 10 consecutive rounds. With a 12 CHA your turn undead attempts will let you do this 3 times a day (30 rounds total). Plus you've got yet another domain to choose. If you pick Magic you'll be able to use wands, scrolls, and staves of all Cleric and Wizard spells without spending any skill points on Use Magic Device.

[gbprime]

Okay, Martial Rogue. Rebooting advice. :smallbiggrin: Here are the feat slots you have to work with. Your major concerns will be AC and damage.

H - Combat Expertise
1 - Daring Defense
F1 - Combat Reflexes
F2 - Vexing Flanker
3 - Two Weapon Fighting
F4 -
6 -
F6 -

This chain gets you started. Combat Expertise enables Daring Defense which adds 1d6 to all your attacks. Combat Reflexes enables Vexing Flanker which, while you won't be doing any sneak attack damage, doubles your flanking to-hit bonus to +4, which will offset the minuses for COmbat Expertise and Two Weapon Fighting.