Crafting magic items and Caster Level (again)

[Cicciograna]

Okay, I'm sure this matter has been presented before, and I found many of the answers by searching the boards; this is what I got.


It seems that the CL entry that appears in the description of the magic items IS NOT a prerequisite for crafting a magic item, so, for example a 1st level Pearl of Power (reporting a CL of 17th) could be created by a 3rd level Wizard/Cleric/Druid (the minimum level to take Craft Wondrous Item).
The CL listed for the items matters only for the item' saving throws, dispel attempts, variables of the duplicated spell (range, duration, targets, etc.).
Every instance of the locution caster level in Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#tableEstimatingMagicItemGol dPieceValues) has to be referred not to the listed CL, but to the effective level of the caster crafting the magic item. This is clear looking at the price of the Cape of the Mountebank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#capeoftheMountebank), whose market value is 10080gp: this price comes from the fact that it's a command word item duplicating a 4th level spell (minimum caster level 7th), usable 1 time per day; so, doing the math it's (1800*4*7)/5=10080, and the fact that the CL associated to the Cape of the Mountebank is 9th has no impact whatsoever on the price of the item.

Now my questions. Both of which have been answered.


The SRD says that (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#casterLevel):

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.
Emphasis mine.
Does this mean, that a Pearl of Power created by a 3rd level spellcaster has a CL of 3rd? Or all the Pearls of Power, regardless of the level of the crafter, have a CL of 17th? In other words, is the CL associated to an item variable between the "minimum caster level which is needed to meet the prerequisites given" and 20 (or more) or goes from that listed in the item description to 20+?
Suppose I create a 19th CL Pearl of Power: is there any difference in cost with the 17th CL one? Since the caster level used to estimate the price of the item is the effective level of the crafter, should I expect that a 17th CL Pearl of Power costs as a 19th level one?

Thanks for your help.

[Ditto]

The Pearl of Power can only be crafted by a wizard or cleric or druird of 17th level or higher. That level does not impact the cost at all. You will have met the feat requirement way back at level 3, but the powers that be decreed only a very advanced wizard can craft this. There is no such thing as a CL3 pearl of power, or a CL19 pearl of power. Just a pearl of power for level 1 spells, or level 2 spells, etc, which can only have been created by a sufficiently advanced wizard.

The Cape of the Mountebank can only be crafted by a wizard of 9th level or higher. You can always choose to craft at a lower CL than that which is specified in the entry, so long at casting the spell at that level is legal. (4th level spell for a wizard, minimum CL7, as you correctly indicated). Even if you have the feat and the relevant spell, you still can't craft this particular item until you are at CL9. You might want to make something called Mountebank Boots, which did exactly the same thing, and cost exactly the same amount, and since this is Movement related the slot affinity lines up perfectly and everything! And you'd be able to craft that at CL7. But since it's a custom magic item, you need to run it by your DM.

It's an ad hoc kind of thing, but unfortunately since you're crafting that particular already-existing item lifted in the book, you're bound by that intangibly-reasoned pre-req. The crafter of that particular item DECIDED that that one of the requirements you must meet to craft it is a minimum, arbitrarily higher than the sum of any other requirements like spells along might suggest.

[Cicciograna]

The Pearl of Power can only be crafted by a wizard or cleric or druird of 17th level or higher.
Nope. There are many arguments pointing to the fact that the CL is not a prerequisite, the most important being that there is a prerequisite entry which is separate from that regarding CL; moreover, there are magic items actually specifying, in their prereqs, that a minimum caster level must be met, such as the Amulets of Natural Armor; lastly, in an online interview, Monte Cook clearly stated that:

Note what it doesn't say. It doesn't say that you have to be the listed level to make a given item. It's not a prerequisite. You don't have to be 17th level to create a 1st-level pearl of power -- you just have to meet the prerequisites. Prerequisites, you'll notice, get their own section. It comes next. All you do with caster levels is determine the level-dependent effects of an item. Those listed in the DMG are just averages. When you determine an item randomly, or pick one out of the book for your player characters to find or to equip an NPC, that's the caster level of the item. That's all it is.
So, CL is not a prereq, so a wizard wanting to craft a 1st level Pearl of Power doesn't have to be 17th level.
So this:

The Cape of the Mountebank can only be crafted by a wizard of 9th level or higher. You can always choose to craft at a lower CL than that which is specified in the entry, so long at casting the spell at that level is legal. (4th level spell for a wizard, minimum CL7, as you correctly indicated). Even if you have the feat and the relevant spell, you still can't craft this particular item until you are at CL9. You might want to make something called Mountebank Boots, which did exactly the same thing, and cost exactly the same amount, and since this is Movement related the slot affinity lines up perfectly and everything! And you'd be able to craft that at CL7. But since it's a custom magic item, you need to run it by your DM.
is incorrect.

As a fortunate side effect of my research of Monte Cook's quotation, I found ANOTHER quotation, by Reynolds, which answers one of my questions:

Gear and Magic Items

What is the caster level required to create a pearl of power?

Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.

However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level--it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st.

For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.

(SKR, 8/18/10)

–Sean K Reynolds (08/18/10)
Emphasis mine.
So apparently, my question number 1 has been answered: CL for a crafted item goes from the minimum caster level required to satisfy prereqs to 20 (or more).
The question on the price stays, though.

[prufock]

Short answer:

The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.

The caster level listed under a magic item description is NOT a prerequisite, however in many (most?) cases is IS the lowest possible CL for that item.

The CL 17 listed for a Pearl of Power is likely for the highest-level one. A 1st level Pearl of Power need only have a CL of 1.

According to Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values, increased CL will NOT mean increased price; however it's important to note that a Pearl of Power doesn't seem to follow this table exactly anyway - its price should be doubled by having no space limitation. Also the caveat that these are just price estimates.

So I suppose you could get arbitrarily high saves on Wondrous Items, provided you can find someone with a CL that high to craft it for you.

A Cape of the Mountebank can only be crafted if you can cast (or otherwise access) Dimension Door, so CL 7 is the lowest you can do it, normally.


A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell.

[Cieyrin]

The only time CL comes in for price purposes is if the item generates a spell, like the Cape or a Scroll. If it doesn't actually cast the spell, you typically don't vary the cost by the CL. So for PoPs, it doesn't matter what CL you create it at, it costs the same. The only stipulation is that the CL be high enough to meet the minimum level to cast any spells required in its creation.

[Zherog]

Just a real quick note: the Sean K Reynolds quote comes from the Pathfinder FAQ. Pathfinder's item crafting rules are similar to "standard" 3.5, but there are differences. However, none of those differences are directly related to your specific question.

(for an example of the differences, note this part of Sean's answer: "He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement." [emphasis mine])

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The price given for an item is only variable if it is stated as variable, which is not very often at all. It can usually be assumed that the price given for an item is set in stone.

When crafting your own items, the caster level of the item is variable, depending on your character's capabilities. You cannot craft a 1st level Pearl of Power at caster level 3 for roughly 1/6 the cost of the CL 17 version, because the price is not variable. Likewise, crafting a 1st level Pearl of Power at CL 19 does not change the item's price, because the price is still not variable. The price will never be variable, only the caster level.

This is one of the benefits of investing in item creation feats, you may get access to certain items at a lower level than normal, or your items may have a higher caster level than normal for purposes of saving throws, dispel checks to disable the items, and sometimes even directly affecting the benefits those items grant.

For example, an item granting a Nondetection effect (Masking armor, or Hat of Anonymity, MIC) would have a DC based on the item's caster level. This has come up before, and I maintain that the item's base price is set in stone, regardless of what caster level it's created at. If crafted by a PC at a lower than normal caster level, the item creation costs are unchanged despite the item being overall weaker than the printed version. If crafted by a PC at a higher than normal caster level, the item creation costs are unchanged despite the item being overall stronger than the printed version. An item's caster level is variable, its base price is not. Do note however that such an item crafted by an NPC at a higher caster level should be sold to the PCs for a higher price, due to the item being more powerful than normal, but the cost to create it is still unchanged.

[Cicciograna]

Do note however that such an item crafted by an NPC at a higher caster level should be sold to the PCs for a higher price, due to the item being more powerful than normal, but the cost to create it is still unchanged.

Ah, this is a clever observation. Thank you Biff.

I think it would be reasonable to assume that the maximum CL a character could create an item with would be his effective caster level, isn't it? As in, a 13th level wizard can create a Cape of the Mountebank with CL from 7th to 13th, but not (yet) 16th, right?

[Zherog]

I think it would be reasonable to assume that the maximum CL a character could create an item with would be his effective caster level, isn't it? As in, a 13th level wizard can create a Cape of the Mountebank with CL from 7th to 13th, but not (yet) 16th, right?

Assuming 3.5 and not Pathfinder, yes. This is correct.

[Ditto]

Just looking at the SRD, the way Monte parses the entry isn't backed up. He is basically saying that 'We didn't have anything better the put there, so somebody said 'I know, put 'CL17'! Lets put a CL## thing in every item entry just for fun!' That's kind of silly. And it's a silly thing that they continued following through all future published books...

Pearl of Power, based on the 'Guidelines to pricing items' is just Spell Level squared * 1000gp; since CL isn't mentioned in there anywhere, there is certainly no impact on the price. You can't set a variable CL to that, it simply has no meaning.

I would still maintain that for specifically listed wondrous items (or any magic items), the CL listed is absolutely necessary to reproduce that specific item. Consider, you could make a Helm of Finding Traps which allows you to cast Find Traps 1/day. THat's a level 2 spell, meaning CL3 for a cleric, say. You get a +1 insight bonus to search for every 2 CL, so let's say you want to set it at CL4 in order to get a +2. That means the description would be:
Faint Divination; CL4; Craft wondrous item, Find Traps; xxx gp

[Doug Lampert]

Just looking at the SRD, the way Monte parses the entry isn't backed up. He is basically saying that 'We didn't have anything better the put there, so somebody said 'I know, put 'CL17'! Lets put a CL## thing in every item entry just for fun!' That's kind of silly. And it's a silly thing that they continued following through all future published books...

Eh? Caster level is a separate entry from prerequisites, why should it be a prerequisite? What in the SRD makes you think it is a prerequisite?

According to the SRD:

Caster Level
The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation. This information is given in the form "CL x," where "CL" is an abbreviation for caster level and "x" is an ordinal number representing the caster level itself.

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.

Prerequisites
Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.

Notice: Caster level is a separate entry from prerequisites, nothing in the entry for what a caster level is says that you EVER have to meet that value.

The prerequisites are listed FOLLOWING the caster level, that's explicit, it's quite clear that caster level is not a prerequisite. The minimum caster level for items is the minimum needed to meet the prerequisites, that's clear in black and white in both your DMG and the SRD. Neither says anything about using the listed caster level in determining the minimum manufacturer's level, in fact they have a section on determining the minimum level to make an item, and they STILL don't mention caster level there. Neither says that the listed caster level is a prerequisite, it's a separate entry that happens before prerequisites.

They tell you in black and white what the minimum caster level to make a pearl of power is. It's the minimum to meet the prerequisites. The prerequisites for Pearl of Power are "Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be able to cast spells of the spell level to be recalled", we know those are the prerequisites because they come exactly where the rules above tell us prerequisites are, AFTER the caster level.

The fact that there are items with a caster level listed as a prerequisite is just icing on the cake to remove any possible doubt. Your interpretation makes that redundant, the rules say otherwise.

[Telonius]

Universal Solvent, Sovereign Glue, and Brooch of Shielding are my go-to examples to explain the CL line on magic items.

Solvent and Glue are also two items that don't follow the price guidelines at all. Both items are CL 20, single-use.

Universal Solvent has Disintegrate (a level 6 spell) as its prerequisite, and costs 50gp.

Sovereign Glue has Make Whole (a level 2 spell) as its prerequisite, and costs 2400gp.

Neither of them make any sort of pretense at following the guidelines. Sovereign Glue would be 300gp (level 2 spell * cleric caster 3 * 50) and Universal Solvent would be 3300gp (level 6 spell * wizard caster 11 * 50) if so.

So, what does it mean that the item has a caster level of 20? Not that you need a 20th-level caster to make it. (Seriously, what Epic wizard is going to spend his time producing Universal Solvent at 50gp a pop? Hard enough imagining an 11th-level Wizard doing that.) What it does mean, is that these things are almost impossible to dispel. Sovereign Glue means when you're stuck, you are STUCK. It means the level-10 wizard is not going to be able to get it off by dispelling it. The best way to get it off is with Universal Solvent. Since it's the equal counter of Sovereign Glue, it's approximately as hard to dispel as Sovereign Glue.

To take the other extreme, Brooch of Shielding is listed as CL 1st. This does not mean you have to be a 1st-level caster to make it. You actually need to be 3rd, since you can't get Craft Wondrous Item before that. (Same goes for all of the other "CL 1st" and "CL 2nd" items). What it does mean, is that it's extremely easy to dispel.

[Ditto]

That's the passage I couldn't locate, explaining the function of the CL entry. Makes much more sense now. And for all items, it makes sense to set the CL of the item as high as possible since it doesn't affect the cost and protects you from Dispelling.