Polymorph followed by Alter Self?

[Brock Samson]

So if you Polymorph yourself into a differnet "type" than normal, then try to Alter Self yourself, what happens? If you Polymorph into a, say monkey, could you then Alter Self yourself into a cat? How does this all work?

Also, is there any difference if you replace "Polymorph" with "Shapechange"?

[Keld Denar]

Similar overlapping effects would take over. The one that resulted in the greatest magnitude would hold precident until its duration ended.

Why would you want to? Why not just polymorph into a cat?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First sentence in Alter Self:
"You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form."

[Brock Samson]

So is your "normal form" always your "base" form? I.E. You're a human at level one, so that's how what Alter Self will always be based off of?

What if you polymorph into a dragon then want to Alter Self into a Human?

Keld: one possible reason is that, if you can Alter Self into a similar form, you might want the stat increases of one form, but then Alter Self'ing into another similar form might give you better natural armor/natural weapons/movement mode, and you'd still maintain the stats of the polymorphed form.

Soooo....... yeah. ???

[mattie_p]

I read type as Type, as in humanoid, animal, dragon, etc. So a human can alter self into a goblin, but not into a monkey or cat.

For the duration of the polymorph spell:

The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

Therefore, as a monkey, you could alter self into a cat. If you had the ability to cast Alter Self as a monkey. If you really wanted to. For the duration of 1 min/level (not 10 min/level as alter self - once the pre-req is gone I would assume that the secondary effect is also gone).

Alter self is more restrictive as far as hit dice and size, though, so again, not sure why you might want to do this, other than to simulate some kind of wild-shape druid or ranger. In which case you might as well be druid. Or ranger.

[Brock Samson]

I'm not saying it's necessarily going to be GOOD to do this, just curious how it would work, RAW.

Off the top of my head though, it could potentially make the Big Scary Monster you turn into look less scary while walking around a village (I guess more the case for wizards and the like who have Shapechange up all day, but you never know).

Also, Alter Self can alter your size, or again add mobility.

[tyckspoon]

So is your "normal form" always your "base" form? I.E. You're a human at level one, so that's how what Alter Self will always be based off of?


It's.. pretty much undefined. There are some other things that reference that nebulous concept and have similar issues when you really try to figure out how they work. Personally, I run that 'normal' is whatever your condition is right now- the overwhelming majority of effects in the game don't *care* how you got to the condition you're in, just what the condition is at the moment they get applied (so, for example, when you're checking Intelligence to determine the duration of your PAO, you can cast a Fox's Cunning on the subject to make it smarter and it will count.) Similarly items and spells can qualify you for feats and Prestige Classes, as long as you're ok with only having access to those feats/classes when your qualifying item/spell is active.

Normal= the character stripped naked and with no magic on him is also a workable interpretation, tho, I just feel it's unnecessarily restrictive. It's one of those things where the important thing is that the DM makes it clear how he's running it and then applies it consistently. Preferably *before* he has to tell a player whose character is based on a different interpretation that he's doing it wrong and that character is illegal at that DM's table.

[Keneth]

Polymorph does not change your creature type at all, and so this whole discussion is moot. If you're polymorphed into a dragon, your type is still humanoid (assuming you were humanoid to begin with), so alter self will only ever allow you to assume humanoid forms.

[VarianArdell]

Polymorph does not change your creature type at all, and so this whole discussion is moot. If you're polymorphed into a dragon, your type is still humanoid (assuming you were humanoid to begin with), so alter self will only ever allow you to assume humanoid forms.

um, you may want to read the Polymorph spell again:

The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm)

[Pilo]

Alter self : You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form

So if you are human, you may have could polymorph into a troll then alter self yourself into a halfling.

But as the two effect are given by the same source (very few doubt possible as polymorph states "this spell function like alter self"), only the best will take effect.

[Keneth]

um, you may want to read the Polymorph spell again:
Sorry about that, I've been playing Pathfinder so long, I've completely deleted that sentence out of my brain. :smallbiggrin:

That said, "normal form" still refers to your actual form and not the form granted by any temporary magic effect. Plus, since the spells work in the same manner, either alter self would fail because it's a lesser effect, or polymorph would effectively be dismissed (overriden) once you cast alter self (because alter self does not change your type and that would result in all kinds of shenanigans).