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View Full Version : Making a Tier 1 or 2 martial class, my take on it (Well, mostly martial)



Yitzi
2012-03-14, 08:56 PM
Since there are two threads on the front page on the topic, I've decided to give it a try. I called it the hero, but an evil-aligned version can be an archvillian instead.

The Hero

Starting Age: As fighter
Starting Gold: as fighter

HD: d12

Class skills: Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha), Use Psionic Device (Cha), Use Rope (Dex)
Skill points per level:6+int mod

Weapon and Armor proficiencies: A Hero is proficient with all weapons, all types of armor and all shields.

{table=head]Level|BaB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1|+1|2|2|2|Heroic Focus, Retraining, Heroism, Bonus Feat
2|+2|3|3|3|Evasion, Prayer
3|+3|3|3|3|Mettle, Determination
4|+4|4|4|4|Bonus Feat, Manipulate Device, Uncanny Dodge
5|+5|4|4|4|Hero's Ally
6|+6/+1|5|5|5|Escape Restraints, Hero's Passion
7|+7/+2|5|5|5|Bonus Feat, Hero's Insight
8|+8/+3|6|6|6|Improved Determination
9|+9/+4|6|6|6|Sworn Foe, Improved Uncanny Dodge
10|+10/+5|7|7|7|Bonus Feat, Heroic Prowess
11|+11/+6/+1|7|7|7|Improved Evasion
12|+12/+7/+2|8|8|8|Weaponmaster
13|+13/+8/+3|8|8|8|Bonus Feat, Improved Mettle
14|+14/+9/+4|9|9|9|Listen to Me!
15|+15/+10/+5|9|9|9|Improved Insight
16|+16/+11/+6/+1|10|10|10|Bonus Feat, Weaponmaster
17|+17/+12/+7/+2|10|10|10|Eternal Hero
18|+18/+13/+8/+3|11|11|11|Greater Sworn Foe
19|+19/+14/+9/+4|11|11|11|Bonus Feat, Indomitable Spirit
20|+20/+15/+10/+5|12|12|12|Weaponmaster, Greater Prowess

[/table]

All abilities are (Ex) unless otherwise noted. Abilities found in other classes (e.g. evasion and mettle) are not explained.

Heroic Focus: Each hero has a slightly different approach to solving problems. A hero may choose from one of four foci:
Athlete: A hero with this focus adds the skills Balance, Climb, Jump, Swim, and Tumble to his class list. In addition, he may use his BAB instead of his ranks in any of these skills if such is advantageous to him. (Other bonuses to the roll, such as ability bonuses, apply normally.) He may also choose to ignore the maximum DEX bonus to AC from his armor, shield, or encumbrance and instead apply his Armor Check Penalty (or equivalent from his shield or encumbrance) to the DEX bonus to AC.
Trickster: A hero with this focus adds the skills Bluff, Disguise, Forgery, Perform, and Sleight of Hand to his list of class skills.
Sage: A hero with this focus adds Decipher Script, Knowledge (all skills, taken individually), Speak Language, spellcraft, and psicraft to his list of class skills.
Scout: A hero with this focus adds the skills Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen to his list of class skills. His land speed also increases by +10, and increases by another +10 at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20.
Retraining: Not all situations call for the same abilities, but a hero can rise to match any challenge. By spending a full day training, a hero may change his Heroic Focus and skill point allotment. He may also spend a full day training to change his bonus feat selection, his selections for the Weaponmaster ability, and Heroic Prowess selection. Finally, he may spend a full week training to change both of those as well as his ability assignments. Regardless of his choice, he may not give up anything that is a prerequisite for another ability that is not being given up.
Heroism: A hero is immune to all fear effects. In addition, he may use his BAB instead of ranks in Concentration for Concentration checks caused by damage (but not those caused by other distractions.)
Bonus Feats: A hero gains one bonus feat at first level, and one more every 3 levels afterward. These feats must either come from the list of bonus fighter feats or be Skill Focus for a skill that the hero has on his class list. A hero may count hero levels as fighter levels for purposes of qualifying for feats.
Prayer (Sp):Even a hero requires aid from a higher power once in a while. Once per day a hero may pray for a single cleric spell granted by his deity (including domain spells) with a spell level of no more than half his class level. This prayer takes 10 minutes, during which the hero must not be threatened or distracted. The hero may not pray for more than twice his class level in spells per week.
A hero who does not follow a deity, or whose deity does not provide the spell he wants, may pray to one whose followers or goals he has aided in the past, but each such instance of aid allows him to use only a total number of spell levels equal to 5 times his character level (at the time of the aid) before the debt is paid. In no circumstance will a deity provide aid that interferes with its own goals.
There is no ability score requirement for the Prayer ability, and the save DC is equal to 10+(1.5Xspell level), as though casting from a scroll or wand.
Determination: A hero gains a bonus equal to half his class level to any Fortitude or Will save to resist an effect that would render him dead or helpless (by means other than damage) or would reduce his actions per round or would directly or indirectly add a penalty of -3 or more to any roll.
Manipulate Device: A hero can put his weaponry skills to other uses as well. As long as he is wielding a light weapon with which he is proficient, he may use his BAB instead of ranks in Disable Device or Open Lock.
Hero's Ally: At level 5, a hero gains a trustworthy ally. He may choose one of the following three options:
Mount: A hero who has befriended an intelligent being within one step of his own alignment which is capable of serving as a mount may (with the prospective mount's agreement) take that creature as his mount. The hero does not require a Handle Animal check to train the mount (but still requires the normal time), and the gains hit dice if necessary to match the hero's character level. In addition, while the hero is riding the mount, the mount may use the hero's DEX bonus instead of its own for AC, and gains the Evasion, Mettle, and Determination abilities as well as Improved Determination, Improved Evasion, and Improved Mettle once the hero acquires them.
Item: A hero who has acquired an intelligent item whose alignment is compatible with his own may take the item to be his ally. If he does so, he may use a Diplomacy check instead of a Will save for personality conflicts, and even if the item has an ego score of 20 or more it does not create a personality conflict unless the hero violates the item's goals or purpose. In addition, the item is considered to have double the enhancement bonus (if applicable) and grants double the normal amount of all other bonuses granted due to being a magic item (but not bonuses granted by intelligent item powers.)
Companion: A hero may gain an animal companion as a first level druid; this ability does not improve with level and a hero with levels in druid gains a second companion rather than an improvement to his existing one. Only small and tiny animals may be chosen. In addition to the usual benefits, the hero may use his class level instead of his ranks in Handle Animal when handling his companion.
A hero who loses his ally, or chooses to abandon or lessen the relationship, cannot choose another ally for 1 week.
Escape Restraints: When using the Escape Artist skill to escape ropes, manacles, or other restraints, a hero may add his class level to the check. He also may take 10 when under time pressure or when distracted, but not when immediately threatened.
Hero's Passion: Heroism is clearly visible to those who know how to see it. At level 6, a hero may make it visible to all, gaining +10 on Diplomacy checks with any character that shares his alignment, +5 on Diplomacy checks with any character that has an alignment that shares one axis with his and is not opposed on the other axis, +5 on Intimidate checks with a character whose alignment is opposed to his on one axis and not the same on the other, and +10 on Intimidate checks with a character whose alignment is opposed to his on both axes.
Hero's Insight: A hero is always on guard against the trickery of magic, and can make use of the slightest mistake to detect the deceit. Whenever a hero is subject to an illusion (e.g. if an character that would otherwise be seen by the hero is invisible), he may make a class level check, plus either his WIS modifier or INT modifier (whichever is higher) to detect the illusion. Concealment benefits still apply, but the hero is aware of the location of an invisible character and may attack him. (Many heroes take the Blind-Fight feat in order to attack more effectively.)
Improved Determination:A hero is entitled to a Fortitude or Will save against any effect that would allow him to apply Determination, even if it does not normally allow a save. The save granted is determined by the school of the spell: Abjuration, Enchantment, and Illusion effects allow a Will save, while Necromancy and Transmutation and Psychoportation powers allow a Fortitude save. Conjuration, Divination, and Evocation effects do not require a save; any effect from one of those schools that would be subject to Determination automatically fails.
Sworn Foe: A hero may declare a single enemy to be his sworn foe. Against this enemy, he treats any weapon as having a magical enhancement bonus 5 higher than its actual bonus (turning normal weapons into magical ones, and magical weapons into epic), does double damage, and gains +1 to his critical multiplier and critical threat range. Against all other enemies not interfering with his pursuit of the sworn foe, however, he takes a -1 penalty on attack and damage rolls. These effects last until the foe is slain or the hero receives an Atonement spell (with no XP cost) to annul the oath. A hero may only declare one sworn foe at a time.
Heroic Prowess: At 10th level, a hero may choose one of four powerful abilities:
Lethal Strike: If the hero is not detected by an enemy, or his enemy is flat-footed, the hero may make a Lethal Strike. This strike is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity from everyone but the target. It requires an attack roll as normal (although the target will be unable to apply his DEX bonus to AC unless he has Uncanny Dodge), but if successful it functions as a Coup De Grace.
Whirlwind of Death: As a full-round action, the hero may move up to his speed without provoking attacks of opportunity, making a full attack against every enemy within his reach at any point in the move (including the starting and ending positions). This attack ignores concealment.
Hear Me Out: As a full-round action, the hero may attempt a diplomacy check DC 20 to get enemies to stop attacking him long enough to try to improve their attitude. If successful, the enemies stop attacking for one minute or until the hero or an ally indicates hostile plans. If the original check fails, the hero may retry, but if it succeeds and the effect is ended, no retry is possible with those enemies.
Demoralize: When using the Intimidate action to demoralize an opponent, the hero targets all enemies able to perceive him. In addition, the effects last until the combat ends or the hero is slain or made helpless. Finally, if the hero wins the opposed roll by 5 or more against a particular enemy that enemy is frightened, and if he wins by 10 or more the enemy is panicked. This ability may be retried as often as desired, but is a standard action each time.
Weaponmaster: At 12th level, and every 4 levels after, the hero may choose one type of weapon. When wielding that weapon, he gets +10 to his attack roll, does triple damage, and gets +2 to his critical multiplier and threat range.
Listen to Me!: Great heroes arise to counter great threats, and often those in power fear the news of such threats and react negatively. A hero rises to this challenge, as he does to all others, resorting to threats if necessary. Beginning at 14th level, a hero required to make a diplomacy check with a circumstance penalty may first make an intimidate check against the target of the diplomacy check. All circumstance bonuses and penalties to the diplomacy check apply to the intimidate check. If the intimidate check is successful, circumstance penalties to the diplomacy check are removed, with the exception of circumstance penalties arising from a desire to see the hero's actual goals fail.
Improved Insight: At 15th level, a hero may ignore all miss chances due to concealment.
Eternal Hero (Su): Beginning at 17th level, a hero may defy death itself. If the hero is slain, a DC 40 Diplomacy check may be used to bring him back to life, as though True Resurrection had been cast (although the body is still required). If an appeal is made to values that the hero treasured in life, or by members of a group that the hero treasured in life, the hero's class level is added as a circumstance bonus to the check; if both conditions hold, add twice the hero's class level.
Greater Sworn Foe: Beginning at level 18, a hero who threatens critical damage against his sworn foe automatically does bonus damage as a successful critical. If he succeeds on the confirmation roll, he automatically kills the foe. In addition, he gains a bonus equal to his class level on all attacks against the foe, and ignores all damage reduction and regeneration possessed by the foe.
Indomitable Spirit: Beginning at level 19, a hero automatically succeeds on all saves against mind-affecting effects.
Greater Prowess: At level 20, a hero may choose a second ability from the list for Heroic Prowess.

Thoughts?

Barbarian MD
2012-03-18, 08:04 PM
Briefly, this falls into the same problems as the other "Tier 1" martial classes. It's not Tier 1.

The Tier System is not "who will win in a fight?" The Tier System is better described as "what situations can this character contribute to?"

No matter how powerful a character is in a combat situation, that's not all there is to D&D. To truly be Tier 1, a character must be able to contribute--and dominate--in every situation you might find yourself in in a campaign. Need to cross terrain? Done. Need to diplomacy your way into a castle? Done. Need to solve a riddle or disable a trap? Done. Need to kill a bad guy? Done. Need to stop an army from reaching its destination? Done--five different ways. A wizard has a spell for everything. That's the proper definition of a Tier.

To read THE article about Tiers, try this: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0

Now, all that to say, it doesn't necessarily make your homebrew a bad homebrew. It just means it's not Tier 1.

Also, if you want to read a hilariously powerful martial class that better addresses this idea, try this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175230

Yitzi
2012-03-18, 10:54 PM
Briefly, this falls into the same problems as the other "Tier 1" martial classes. It's not Tier 1.

The Tier System is not "who will win in a fight?" The Tier System is better described as "what situations can this character contribute to?"

No matter how powerful a character is in a combat situation, that's not all there is to D&D. To truly be Tier 1, a character must be able to contribute--and dominate--in every situation you might find yourself in in a campaign. Need to cross terrain? Done. Need to diplomacy your way into a castle? Done. Need to solve a riddle or disable a trap? Done. Need to kill a bad guy? Done. Need to stop an army from reaching its destination? Done--five different ways. A wizard has a spell for everything. That's the proper definition of a Tier.

That is the aim of the Prayer ability. While his strongest area is combat, and he's also very good at diplomatic stuff, he does have access to the entire Cleric spell list (well, as a cleric 1 level lower) even if he can't use it very often or in combat.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2012-03-18, 11:01 PM
That is the aim of the Prayer ability. While his strongest area is combat, and he's also very good at diplomatic stuff, he does have access to the entire Cleric spell list (well, as a cleric 1 level lower) even if he can't use it very often or in combat.

Yeah, it's basically wish 1/day, with a spell level restriction. It's interesting, and it definitely lets the class contribute in nearly every situation. It even allows domain spells, which opens up a large can of worms even with the 1/day restriction.

That said, it's obviously overpowered, and you obviously did it on purpose (all good saves, full proficiencies, d12 Hit Dice, ridiculous bonuses to this and that). Tone it down a bit, maybe base a d8 Hit Dice class around the Prayer ability. Or you could make a prestige class based on the ability.

Yitzi
2012-03-19, 03:03 PM
Yeah, it's basically wish 1/day, with a spell level restriction. It's interesting, and it definitely lets the class contribute in nearly every situation. It even allows domain spells, which opens up a large can of worms even with the 1/day restriction.

Admittedly, it's only a single deity's set of domains, which limits it somewhat.


That said, it's obviously overpowered, and you obviously did it on purpose (all good saves, full proficiencies, d12 Hit Dice, ridiculous bonuses to this and that).

Well, it is supposed to be tier 1 or 2.


Tone it down a bit, maybe base a d8 Hit Dice class around the Prayer ability.

Such a class already exists, except far stronger. It's known as the cleric.

Prayer is meant to be versatile enough to help the Hero contribute in every situation, but it's still not strong enough to be the "backbone" of the class.

Seerow
2012-03-19, 03:17 PM
1) What's with the animal companion not scaling at all? You have an intelligent item, a horse with HD equal to yours and a few other bonuses... and then a 1st level animal companion? What the hell is the use of that ever? Either make it a full scaling companion or scrap it. As it is now it's just a waste of space on the character sheet.


2) 1 cleric spell per day does not a tier 1 make. You can emulate a fair bit of tier 1 stuff with it admittedly, but it's nowhere near the quantity needed to make it count. And everything outside of that cleric spell? Well you got bonuses to skills and damage. But you could give a character +100 in every skill in the game, and huge quantities of damage, and still be scraping the top of tier 4, or maybe low tier 3. The cleric spell on top of it probably brings you solidly to tier 3 by itself. The class is strong, possibly too strong, but not in any of the ways that make for a tier 1 caster.

Barbarian MD
2012-03-19, 03:30 PM
Yeah, there's a tendency to equate Combat Power and Tier Power on the same sliding scale, but they're two separate issues. This is (possibly) too strong in one and too weak in the other to be considered top tier.

Briefly, and not all-inclusively, think about ways to buff the party, enabling them to do things they wouldn't otherwise be able to do (sort of like a brilliant commander type thing), figure out how to overcome magic (like breaking down force walls or dispelling magical effects) and other obstacles like terrain/planes/puzzles/etc, create stuff (and quickly), disrupt the abilities of others, prevent yourself from getting killed (not simply an HP or save issue), help others to not get killed, divine/scry/etc what your enemies are doing, and basically be Batman. If you can do all of that (and more stuff I haven't thought of) in ways that are world-altering, you're getting there.

PEACH
2012-03-19, 04:11 PM
This is another "I always win in a straight fight" class, which is powerful, and also an "I get bonuses to every skill" class, which is powerful, but yeah, that doesn't make it T1, because it can't do everything, and it isn't even tier 2, because it can't be built to do anything besides be really good at fighting and have BAB to a ton of skills.

It's certainly capable of winning fights, but it's not T1 or T2, and honestly, T1 and T2 aren't really things you want to aim for in most cases, because they entirely change the rules for how you can DM and how you have to approach throwing (non railroad-ey) problems at the players.

Yitzi
2012-03-19, 04:29 PM
1) What's with the animal companion not scaling at all? You have an intelligent item, a horse with HD equal to yours and a few other bonuses... and then a 1st level animal companion? What the hell is the use of that ever?

It depends somewhat on the DM, but it's enough of a concern to make the Evil Overlord List:



When I capture the hero, I will make sure I also get his dog, monkey, ferret, or whatever sickeningly cute little animal capable of untying ropes and filching keys happens to follow him around.


It is not a major contributor to the class being a tier 1, but can help flavor the class in a less optimized game.

Also, a horse would not be eligible for the Mount ability. A pegasus, on the other hand...


2) 1 cleric spell per day does not a tier 1 make. You can emulate a fair bit of tier 1 stuff with it admittedly, but it's nowhere near the quantity needed to make it count.

Indeed; it's for versatility in the situations where nothing else will do, not for the "backbone" of the class.


And everything outside of that cleric spell? Well you got bonuses to skills and damage. But you could give a character +100 in every skill in the game, and huge quantities of damage, and still be scraping the top of tier 4, or maybe low tier 3. The cleric spell on top of it probably brings you solidly to tier 3 by itself.

The idea is that tier 1 combines power and versatility, and this is meant to accomplish that by having both power (the bonuses and immunities) and versatility (the cleric spell and mix of abilities.) Admittedly, he can't match other tier 1 classes in their strongest areas, but if that were a requirement for being tier 1 it would be impossible for more than one class to be tier 1.


Briefly, and not all-inclusively, think about ways to buff the party, enabling them to do things they wouldn't otherwise be able to do (sort of like a brilliant commander type thing)

That's what I forgot to include...I'll think about how to implement this.


figure out how to overcome magic (like breaking down force walls or dispelling magical effects

Prayer could potentially help there, but some "break magic" ability might be warranted. I'll think about the best approach.


and other obstacles like terrain/planes/puzzles/etc

Terrain is part of what the mount option is for (most eligible mounts have flying), for planes you can use Prayer for Plane Shift, and puzzles aren't solved using mechanical abilities anyway.


create stuff (and quickly)

I think he can do without this one.


disrupt the abilities of others

Other than Dispel (which I do plan to give him), not even tier 1 can do this.


prevent yourself from getting killed (not simply an HP or save issue), help others to not get killed

You mean some sort of "I don't die" ability? Eternal Hero is closer to that than tier 1 gets.


divine/scry/etc what your enemies are doing

Another thing Prayer can be useful for (since it doesn't have to be done that often or during an encounter), as can skills.


and basically be Batman.

Batman's abilities seem to all come from tools...and guess which skills I gave this class?

PEACH
2012-03-19, 04:38 PM
Yitzi, I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding if you think T1s have "their strongest areas." The entire point is that a T1 class can reasonably break the game (or at least solve any reasonable and most unreasonable problems) with everything. The reason the wizard is T1 isn't because he can do a lot of things and is really, really good at, say, fighting. It's because he is really, really good at literally everything. Same with clerics and druids.

You don't get to be a T1 class by breaking the game in one way and being versatile in general. That's T3. This class can reasonably solve all combat encounters and can probably contribute, but not amazingly so, to most other types of things. But unlike the Wizard, he can't just prepare himself so that he can win at combat, stealth, diplomacy, and everything else in one day, and unlike the Sorcerer, he can't be built to be great at any of those he wants (but without the flexibility to switch). The only thing he can be exceptionally good at is fighting, and he can contribute, but not amazingly, to other things. That's T3.

Siosilvar
2012-03-19, 04:38 PM
Indeed; it's for versatility in the situations where nothing else will do, not for the "backbone" of the class.

The thing is, "versatility in the situations where nothing else will do" IS the "backbone" of T1 classes. Give the Wizard or Cleric a day and they can do literally anything on their spell list a half-dozen times each. One spell does not a T1 make. A Factotum gets up to 8 spells per day (at level 20) and is very solidly T3. To be T1 or T2, you need to be able to do whatever you need to whenever you need to. Once a day isn't enough.

PEACH
2012-03-19, 04:42 PM
Well, T2 doesn't necessarily have the power to do whatever they need whenever they need to; they only have the power to do whatever they need whenever they need to within their specialization(s); a super blasty sorcerer may be amazing at blasting and battlefield control, but not have (as many) relevant options for diplomacy or stealth. Still, I pretty much agree that the flexibility to do everything (for T1) or the flexibility to do anything you build for (T2) is what is required for those tiers.

Yitzi
2012-03-19, 05:59 PM
So what you're saying is that it not only needs versatility and power, but the ability to bring full power to bear even on obscure areas that you'll never need full power for, such as transportation and information? If so, then this would indeed not be tier 1 or 2, and a completely different approach would be needed.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2012-03-19, 06:10 PM
So what you're saying is that it not only needs versatility and power, but the ability to bring full power to bear even on obscure areas that you'll never need full power for, such as transportation and information? If so, then this would indeed not be tier 1 or 2, and a completely different approach would be needed.

Precisely. Here's the official tier list description of a Tier 1 class:

Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels.

And here's Tier 2:

Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes.

Capable of doing absolutely everything means, basically, being able to do anything efficiently and quickly, and being (often) better than classes that specialize in that thing.

This class can not meet that criteria.

PEACH
2012-03-19, 06:55 PM
Just to reiterate, though: From a design perspective, T2 and T1 are not necessarily great things to shoot for; an all T1 or T2 game where T1 and T2 power was brought to bear with decent optimization is much more difficult to plan for and requires an entirely different approach from traditional games. T3 classes can bring a lot to the game; martial adepts and focused casters bring variety within their specializations and some outside utility, but still tend to have one or two tricks you can plan around, or you can have somebody like the Factotum, bringing solutions to everything, but not as good as the specialized T3 classes.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with playing T2 or T1 classes, but trying to design a new T1 class that isn't just some variety of caster with the current spell list almost requires you to implement a bunch of abilities that drastically change the scope and flow of a game if used to their full potential, which may not be what you want.

Yitzi
2012-03-20, 10:45 AM
Oh, I know that for actual design tier 3 is good (actually, a toned-down version of this could make a worthwhile tier 3 class.) I just wanted to see if it's doable.

With the discussion here, I've figured out why it is not: "Martial" is essentially a role description, and the whole idea of tier 1 is that it has no particular role. So "martial tier 1" is as much an oxymoron as "debuffer tier 1" or "combat control tier 1", even if some tier 1s tend to use debuffs or combat control.

Essentially, "martial" says what the class does, while "magical" says how it does it. In order to be tier 1, the class can only be characterized by how it does it (not what it does), and that has to be "black box" enough to cover pretty much anything, which essentially means magic or magic by another name, or an artificer-sort.