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The Pressman
2012-03-15, 02:23 AM
What are some good tactics for handling a larger group (6+ people)? I am more worried about the game issues with larger encounters and such.

Solaris
2012-03-15, 02:31 AM
Use every trick in the book for making encounters go faster. I once ran a group that had thirteen players, almost all of whom had two characters. Combat encounters need something to keep everyone occupied - if you let them gang up on the monster, it better be able to be a threat to the entire group (preferably not a one-shot-kill). Teams of enemies are a better thing, but they require work on your part.

As an aside, it makes me laugh whenever I see someone stress about a six-player group. They're really not at all that large.

The Pressman
2012-03-15, 02:45 AM
okay. That sounds reasonable. I already use teams of baddies so often that it's a bit second nature.

EDIT: could you point me to some of those strategies for making encounters go faster?

TheOOB
2012-03-15, 02:58 AM
There does get to be a point where it may be worth splitting into multiple groups. The sheer number of math involved when dealing with double digit players can really bog a game down, and it's difficult to spotlight each different character.

RPGs are group storytelling sessions. When a show or book gets too many characters it often separates them so they all have their own seperate sub-plots going on, and you can do the same with your game, occasionally bringing them all together for a larger more dramatic session.

W3bDragon
2012-03-15, 04:08 AM
First off, the players need to know exactly what their abilities do. Midcombat is the wrong time to look up whether the grease spell can be used on a weapon or whether Lay on Hands triggers an AoO. The better they know their character's abilities, the faster combat will be.

On your end, you need to encourage the players to declare their actions during combat faster. Ideally, you want the player to be watching how the combat unfolds so that, when it comes to their turn, the know what they want to do. Nothing slows down the game quite as much as a zoned out player that only pays attention when its his turn. Giving a small bonus to people that act quickly (for example, a +1 to a single d20 roll on their turn if they declare their action in 10 seconds or less) can help speed things up.

This should go without saying, but I'm saying it. You need to know the rules for all the special combat maneuvers. If you don't know them by heart, have a small cheat sheet in front of you that can quickly tell you how to resolve grapple, disarm, trip, bullrush, etc. Any other important rules that you don't know by heart should also be nearby. Attacks of opportunity. Combat modifiers. Etc.

bokodasu
2012-03-15, 11:01 AM
Specific examples are from a D&D perspective, but the principles are the same for any system:

Be Prepared:
For the DM: Know what you're going to have the players encounter, including not just what it is but how it fights, including any special abilities, attacks, etc. It is SUCH a bummer to remember that Greater Shadows have spring attack after your players have already slaughtered them because you forgot. And nobody wants to watch you flip through the Monster Manual - stat those suckers out and write yourself notes like: "Greater Shadow: SPRING ATTACK."
For the Players: Know - and UNDERSTAND - what your spells do. Summons need to be statted out, spell DCs should be calculated, attack bonuses known, etc. If players don't know these things when they try to use them, they summon a rat, the DC is 10, and their attack is their roll.

Game Time is Game Time:
When the group is together to play, play. No "but I forgot to pick my spells" or "I didn't finish leveling up" - well, then you have no spells for today and you're still on your last level. Also, try to keep "hey, did you see that TV SHOW/SPORTING EVENT last night?" talk to a minimum - maybe 20 minutes at the beginning of the session while everyone's pulling out books and dice so they can all get it out of their systems, and then start encouraging game-talk only.

Can We Handle That Offline?
Handle any individual interactions outside of game time - there's nothing more boring that eight people sitting around while the ninth one tries to haggle for a tanglefoot bag. Some players really get into minutiae - if it's something you want to support, ask them to save it for a one-on-one session through email or Skype. If you use an online tool like Obsidian Portal, it's fantastic for this kind of thing.

Give Players Jobs:
You shouldn't be handling initiative. Give someone else a bonus for doing it. I recommend index cards with player & character names on them - they're quick to set up and easy to shuffe with delays, holding actions, etc. Designate a Rules Lawyer (someone who consistently remembers the grapple rules) and a Newbie Helper (someone who can explain how to pick your daily spells, how to calculate an attack bonus, etc.) Delegate as much as you can.

Never Count Your Money While You're Sitting at the Table:
Everyone is responsible for paying attention while the game is going on. This is a two-way street - on the one side, don't recap for people who are off fiddling with their phones. On the other, try to keep everyone involved so they're not tempted to wander off and fiddle with their phones. Keeping up a quick pace will help with that, because they should need their non-turn time to figure out their next action.

Keep Up a Quick Pace:
Don't let any one person bog things down - if the current player is dithering, insist that they delay until after the next person (repeat as necessary).
Roll Attack/Miss Chance/Damage at the same time (this may take a little practice).
Look ahead - if they hit a kobold with 1 HP left, or a SuperMegaBigBad with over 9000 don't bother waiting for their damage roll - kill it now or move on to the next person now and subtract the damage once they've figured it out.
If the person before the current player made some big game-changing move you can give them a little more time to figure things out - use that time to make sure everyone else is aware of the way in which the game was just changed.

Rule and Move On:
This goes for all sorts of encounters, not just combat. If you aren't sure of a rule, ask your Rules Lawyer - if they don't remember it offhand, go with what you think is right and move on. Make a note and look it up after the game session, then tell your players (then or before the next session) what the rule really is and that you will be playing with the correct rule in the future.
A subset of this relates to things like Spell Resistance/DR/etc - if you remember halfway through a combat that your creature should have had SR 15 or whatever, just announce it then and keep going - don't try to recalculate anything that already happened and don't keep it a secret until the next person casts - they would have known from previous players' actions, so let them know. If your player remembers that their character has SR 15, same deal - you will roll from whenever they remember forward, but don't go back and try to retcon previously-cast spells.
Sometimes this will be your loss, sometimes the players' - generally it all evens out, just make sure everyone knows that this is the plan and be fair in enforcing it.

Some of these suggestions sound mean, but once you set the tone, you pretty much never actually have to do them. (I did once have one player who got stuck with never having his to-hit or damage bonuses because he couldn't calculate them, but he didn't mind and that is one nice thing about a big party - nobody really cares if one person isn't 100% pulling their weight, because every role is generally more than covered.)

Jay R
2012-03-15, 11:04 AM
Parcel out some of the work. Pick the person who seems to have the most extra time, and ask her to keep track of the initiative rolls. *Any* game mechanic that doesn't involve hidden info can be delegated.

Never wait for a player decision; postpone it, instead.
DM: Who's initiative is it?
Carol: Roger's wizard is next.
DM: OK, Roger, what does Havershaw do?
Roger: I haven't decided whether to cast Fireball or Fear. Are all those gryphons within a 20-foot radius?
DM: Measure it yourself. OK, Havershaw holds his action, trying to decide what spell to cast. Carol, move his initiative down to the end of the round. Who's next?
Carol: The NPC wizard Canteloupe the Cruel.
DM: (checking notes) Canteloupe casts Confusion over the following area. John, you're in charge of these saving throws. Make sure everyone makes one now, and then keep track of who needs to make one each round. Who's next?

Never delay your own decision. An average decision now is better than the best decision a minute later.

When possible, have general approaches for the NPCs worked out in advance, so you have fewer decisions to make in combat. The Prince of Pompadoodle always orders a cavalry charge when the battle starts. Arlecchino uses Lightning by preference, and prefers to set up Walls in front of the PC fighters, to prevent them from meleeing, Lukas-Kasha will stay hidden and attempt to steal two magic items before his first sneak attack, etc.

Have the minis laid out in advance, behind a screen, so you can quickly move them to the table. (When I was running a party of 12, I did this, but I also included a few creatures that they would not meet, in case they got a glimpse behind the screen. The party of second-levels was wondering when they were going to meet two red dragons. They weren't going to, but they didn't pay attention to the other minis when they saw those two in front.)

The number of people actually fighting has a huge effect on the power of the group. If you have few monsters, each one gets attacked several times in a round.

Finally, I strongly urge you to start them out at 1st level. A party of twelve 1st-levels can accomplish a lot, and it's much easier to start the game when they have fewer abilities.

Anderlith
2012-03-15, 02:26 PM
Advice from someone who regularly attends 12+ people gaming sessions & has DM'd multiple 12+ long term campaigns

Everything is subjective from group to group, you'll have to find your own balance when dealing with Encounter Levels & spotlight & such except for dealing with combat rounds. It takes a long time for combat to make it's way around the table so you need to curb player indecision as much as you can. Our group has a six second rule. If you take too long positioning your mini or picking an enemy, or choosing an action, we count to six, if you can't articulate what your character is doing you get skipped. A combat round is six seconds in-game so it shouldn't take you that long to take your action out of game. Spend time planing on everyone else's turn.

Other than that I suggest using nigh obscene amounts of fairly weak enemies (But not one shot HP anklebitters that can't hold there own) to attack the group goblinoids & undead are your friends here.

Solaris
2012-03-17, 09:33 PM
I've had some luck with having them roll before their turn. It usually works out - and if something unexpected happens, they can change their target or their action. Obviously, it doesn't work if you're playing with a punk powergamer.

Have them roll all dice at the same time. Attack rolls and damage rolls go at the same time, for example.

Katana_Geldar
2012-03-18, 08:25 PM
Bear in mind that some systems are better at big groups than others. I wouldn't run a big group through a Gumshoe game, for instance.

Templarkommando
2012-03-18, 11:03 PM
One that I saw suggested in another similar thread was to let your players know when their initiative come up.

This could certainly work even if you have a non-DM in charge of initiative, just say "Zarckon the Wizard is up, Corback the Fighter is on deck." It gives your players an extra moment to decide what to do if they were pre-occupied with something else.

I try to avoid players using a lot of extra electronics. I don't mind using your phone to text every now and then, but streaming videos and perusing websites that aren't related to rules irritates me some.

Try to make rolling a painless convention. You can shave off precious seconds from a combat round if you're not busy chasing your d20 across the floor and under a couch. You can roll in a cup, or just cup your hands around the dice when you roll. Be sure to roll on a hard surface.

I really like the flashcard idea for initiative. It might be something worth looking into. I haven't tried it, but it seems like it could be useful.


Try to avoid shining the spotlight on just one or two characters. You can do it every now and then when their story is very important at the moment, but you want to use those times sparingly. You can do this in part by asking other party members what their character is doing. That gives your player an invitation to roleplay and have some fun.

Try to get your party to subscribe to a fair loot system. Technically, they don't have to, but if you can make looting agreeable to everyone, you can avoid a decent number of fights. Things like equal cash shares all around is a pretty good idea imho, and I also like letting players use loot that drops that they can use before letting it get absorbed into the money pile.

valadil
2012-03-19, 08:10 AM
This topic comes up a lot. So much so in fact that instead of retyping my opinions each time, I blogged about it (http://gm.sagotsky.com/?p=225).

Andorax
2012-03-22, 03:42 PM
6 is managable...once it gets past 6, press-gang one of them into the Assistant GM role.

Not only is it great to have someone to plot and scheme with, but it helps immensely when you can hand off the 'pull someone aside and talk to them' task, or the 'keep track of initiatives' task, or the 'look up a rule' task...or even just the 'move the minis on the other side of the table I can't quite reach' task off to.


I first was introduced to this idea in a local tournament where having two DMs at each table let the people running the tournament keep things moving, and keep score easier...it also tended to help average out individual biases. Any time my personal gaming group got unmanagable, I dragged out the concept, and it helped immensely.

Fatebreaker
2012-03-22, 05:09 PM
If you have a big enough group, you can break the group into a bunch of mini-groups (3-4 players), each with their own DM. This is best in a large hobby store or a college type environment, where you have a dozen or more players. DM's collaborate on the plot of the campaign, making sure to keep each group roughly on par with the others., and letting actions from one group translate to effects for another. Periodically, the groups all come together for a dedicated purpose, say, a roleplay-heavy session, or a major boss battle. That can be a lot of fun, and lets everyone have good screen time and focus while still giving you a big-game feel.