Ranged Feats! (Pathfinder, yo!)

[Dr_S]

So one of my groups is starting a new campaign and I was asking myself...
"self, what kind of character do you want to play?" and I replied "oh you know what would be cool? some sort of sniper..." except upon reading the sniper archetype it only seemed sort of what I might like.

Then I looked at the crossbow man Archetype and I was like "well with some rp-ness this might get me closer"

However it looks like I'm going to get an insane amount of feats, and I've always been bad about feats, and there seems to be a lot of them, and no way to categorize them by "ranged" on the SRD I've been using.

So what feats do you guys recommend?
any dips into other classes?
(I noticed one feat adds my int to damage with a crossbow, are there other feats that might take advantage of my int? if I wanted to go that route)

[Private]

What class were you planning on going? Fighter? Ranger? Both are pretty suited for what you're looking for, and both will get you quite a few feats. That being said, take your basics, (Point Blank, Precise Shot, etc.) and see where the character takes you.

The only "Must-have" ranged feat I've seen come from Pathfinder is Clustered Shots, which groups all of your hits in a given round together for overcoming DR. This gets rid of a big drawback to a ranged character.

Snap Shot and Improved Snap Shot are also pretty good. Combine them and you get AoO at 15ft with your ranged weapon.

Hope those help.

[grarrrg]

So what feats do you guys recommend?
any dips into other classes?
(I noticed one feat adds my int to damage with a crossbow, are there other feats that might take advantage of my int? if I wanted to go that route)

Stat-to-damage with Bows/Crossbows is a pain.
Someone is bound to chime in with "Guided weapon enchantment all the way!", but there is some debate on its legality (which I will NOT go into). I advise you and your DM to look into it.

This may be relevant to your interests (does not include Ranger, this is due to a "friendly discussion" regarding which class is best archer, while Ranger is a solid choice, it was not part of the "friendly discussion")


Scroll down, I added Ranger and reposted.

Basically if you plan on using archery you want one of 5 classes.
Fighter (Archer/Crossbowman) > Tons of feats, Maneuvers at range w/bow
Inquisitor (any/none) > Judgement and Bane for +Accuracy/Damage
Monk (Zen Archer) > Tons of feats for the first few levels (avg. of 2 feats each level for the first 3 levels), and its bonus feats are no-req.
Paladin (Divine Hunter) > Smite Evil + Rapid Shot
Ranger (any/none) > no-req bonus feats, Favored Enemy


If you plan on using a Bow, I HIGHLY advise Monk for up to 10 levels, and taking the other levels in a different class.
Level 3 gets you effectively 6 feats
Level 6 nets you Weapon Specialization
Level 8 is an additional 'Flurry' shot
Level 9 lets you make AoO's with your Bow (albiet only "what you threaten with Unarmed Strikes, so 5ft baring shenanigans)
Level 10 for the Bonus feat, and, why not, you took 9 levels, might as well round it off.

[Krazzman]

Yet again I have to give grarrrrg a +1.

If you Plan on archery with bows take Zen Archer Monk. The bonus points are: You are SAD, high saves, good feats (for FREE!).

But if you want to take the other classes I suggest either going for Rapid shot, Vital strike, Manyshot. Vital strike to nearly double your damage if you only have a Standard Action, the other two for full round actions. Additionally I would also try to get the feat in that lets you add all your damage that round together in terms of dealing with damage reduction.

Hope this helps.

[Otomodachi]

In 3.5, I recall a couple feats (well, specifically, I am sure there was one for disarm) that allowed you to do what Pathfinder named Combat Maneuvers at range. Is there anything like that in PF? Can you combine Zen Archer with Maneuver Master?

[Cieyrin]

In 3.5, I recall a couple feats (well, specifically, I am sure there was one for disarm) that allowed you to do what Pathfinder named Combat Maneuvers at range. Is there anything like that in PF? Can you combine Zen Archer with Maneuver Master?

As grarrrg already mentioned, Archer or Crossbowman Fighter gets maneuvers at range as class features.

I'd personally favor Ranger for most of my ranged needs, given early access to useful archery feats faster than anyone else (Improved Precise Shot at 6th? Pinpoint Targeting at 10th? Yeah!). Alternatively, a Cleric of Erastil with Guided Hand could be fully SAD and bring back the age of Cleric archers to PF.

[grarrrg]

As grarrrg already mentioned, Archer or Crossbowman Fighter gets maneuvers at range as class features.

Archer can start doing maneuvers at level 3, and can make ANY of the maneuvers he has selected.

Crossbowman can ONLY make Bullrush/Trip and then only at level _17_.

So for all intents and purposes, only the Archer-Fighter can do ranged maneuvers.

[KutuluKultist]

As grarrrg already mentioned, Archer or Crossbowman Fighter gets maneuvers at range as class features.

I'd personally favor Ranger for most of my ranged needs, given early access to useful archery feats faster than anyone else (Improved Precise Shot at 6th? Pinpoint Targeting at 10th? Yeah!). Alternatively, a Cleric of Erastil with Guided Hand could be fully SAD and bring back the age of Cleric archers to PF.

The problem here is that due to feat prereqs, guided hand doesn't make for a SAD archer.

[grarrrg]

Reposted for enjoyment (now with RANGER!)

Breakdown on levels 1, 4, 8, & 12 of the following
Fighter, Archer
Inquisitor (normal)
Monk, Zen Archer
Paladin, Divine Hunter
Ranger, (normal, OR Freebooter gets 1/2 Favored Enemy against ANY ONE target at a time AND shares this with nearby allies, OR Guide gets a more "Smite Evil" like Favored ability)

When you factor in things like HP, Skills, Saves, etc... they all wind up about even Stat-wise.
For sake of argument all unlisted stats are 10, all Level-Up stats go into Primary stat (Dex/Wis as appropriate)
Fighter: 18 Dex, 16(not Str)
Inquisitor: 18 Dex, 16 Wis
Monk: 16 Dex, 18 Wis (only needs 13 Dex, but for the sake of sameness...)
Paladin: 18 Dex, 16 Cha
Ranger: 18 Dex, 16 Wis (yeah, the Wis doesn't need to be that high, but...sameness...)

Rulings/Assumptions
Accuracy is a combination of Bab and passive bonuses, all character have same Base-Stat-Mod-to-hit, so values are at -4 (-5 at level 8)
Accuracy in () is using abilities.
Flurry is being treated as getting the Rapid Shot feat
Accuracy in [] is for Rapid Shot/Flurry (based on Base accuracy)
Bonus Damage is passive bonuses.
Bonus Damage in () is using abilities.
Assume all are using Longbows, and are medium races (1d8)
Feats are Bonus Feats only, not from levels.
Special is for non-numerical bonuses, specials carry downward (I'm not typing everything multiple times)
Level 1:
Fighter: Accuracy: +1 [-1] Bonus Damage: 0 Feats: 1 Special: none.
Inquisitor: Accuracy: 0 (+.5) [-2] Bonus Damage: 0 (+.5) Feats: 0 Special: 1st level Divine spells, can gain either +1 to-hit, or +1 Damage 1-Encounter/day (bonus only applies to 1 at a time, so they are halved)
Monk: Accuracy: -1 [-2] (no Wis-to-hit yet, Dex is 2 worse than others> -1) Bonus Damage: 0 Feats: 3 Special:
Paladin: Accuracy: +1 (+4) [-1] Bonus Damage: 0 (+1) Feats: 1 Special: Smite Evil 1/day
Ranger: Accuracy: +1 (+3) [-1] Bonus Damage: 0 (+2) Feats: 0 Special: 1st Favored Enemy

Winner: Paladin/Ranger both get nice, if situational/limited, damage boosts.
Loser: Monk, no Wis-to-hit puts Monk dead last


Level 4:
Fighter: Accuracy: +4 [+2] Bonus Damage: 0 Feats: 3 Special: Can make 1 Combat Maneuver w/Bow, +5ft. Range Increment
Inquisitor: Accuracy: +3 (+3.5) [+1] Bonus Damage: (+1) Feats: 1 (teamwork) Special: Judge 2/day, 2nd level Divine spells, counts others as having its Teamwork Feats
Monk: Accuracy: +3 [+2] Bonus Damage: 0 Feats: 6 Special: Ki Pool (6) can give extra attacks on Flurry (note: weapon focus is counted as a feat but is NOT added to accuracy, as anyone could take it)
Paladin: Accuracy: +4 (+7) [+2] Bonus Damage: 0 (+4) Feats: 1 Special: 1st level Divine spells, Smite 2/day
Ranger: Accuracy: +4 (+6) [+2] Bonus Damage: 0 (+2) Feats: 2 Special: 1st Divine Spells, Animal Companion

Winner: Monk, can go all day long, albeit with no bonus damage, the only limited resource is Ki Points.
Runner-up: Paladin, Smite Evil is good, but limited uses, and the lack of other bonuses hurt.
Loser: Fighter/Inquisitor. while Fighter can go all day, he has fewer feats then the Monk, Inquisitor is lacking all around.

Level 8:
Fighter: Accuracy: +10 [+8] Bonus Damage: +3 Feats: 3 Special: 2 Combat Maneuvers, +10ft. Range Increment (assume took Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Focus as feats, NOT counted as feats)
Inquisitor: Accuracy: +6 (+8/+10) [+4] Bonus Damage: 0 (+3/+10) Feats: 2 (teamwork) Special: Judgement 3/day, 2 Judgement effect at same time, Bane 8-rounds/day (second #'s in () are from Bane bonus w/Judgement), 3rd Divine Spells
Monk: Accuracy: +6 [+6] Bonus Damage: +2 (+3) Feats: 7 Special: Ki Arrows can give +1 (average) damage, Ki Pool (9), gains attack at -5 on Flurry (Weapon Specialization is added to Damage but not to feats, as only the Fighter could also take it)
Paladin: Accuracy: +8 (+11/+13) [+6] Bonus Damage: 0 (+8/+10) Feats: 1 Special: 3/day Smite Evil, second #'s in () are Divine Bond bonus > gives +2 bonus for 8-minutes/day, 2nd Divine Spells. Aura of Care would be MUCH more useful if it didn't have 10ft. limit.
Ranger: Accuracy: +8 (+12) [+6] Bonus Damage: 0 (+4) Feats: 3 Special: 2nd Favored Enemy, Improved Favored Enemy, 2nd level Divine spells.

Winner: Monk/Inquisitor. Judgement gives both bonuses now, really giving Inquisitor a boost. Monk gains Weapon Specialization and an extra Flurry attack.
Loser: Fighter, the only thing keeping Paladin from last is Smite Evil. Against non-evil enemies (or hordes of evil ones), Paladin takes last place.

Level 12:
Fighter: Accuracy: +15 [+13] Bonus Damage: +6 Feats: 5 Special: 3 Combat Maneuvers, +15ft Range Increment ('Safe Shot' is identical to Point Blank Master feat, and is counted as a feat, Greater Weapon Specialization counted towards Damage NOT as a feat)
Inquisitor: Accuracy: +9 (+12/+14) [+7] Bonus Damage: 0 (+5/+19) Feats: 4 (teamwork) Special: 4th Divine spells, Judgement 4/day, Greater Bane (more damage) 12 rounds/day
Monk: Accuracy: +9 [+10] Bonus Damage: +2 (+4.5) Feats: 9 Special: Ki Pool 11, can spend Ki to ignore Concealment/Cover/Corners (Reflexive Shot is similar to Snap Shot, counted towards Feats)
Paladin: Accuracy: +12 (+15/+18) [+10] Bonus Damage: 0 (+12/+15) Feats: 1 Special: Divine Bond +3 for 12 minutes/day, Smite Evil 4/day, 3rd Divine spells, Can spend Smite Evil to grant self and Allies 3 feats (not very useful, the Paladin should have at least 2 of those feats already anyway)
Ranger: Accuracy: +12 (+18/+20) [+10] Bonus Damage: 0 (+6) Feats: 4 Special: 3rd level Divine spells, 3rd Favored Enemy, Improved Favored Enemy, Quarry gives +2 Accuracy and auto-confirms criticals 1/day (or 1/hour if Quarry killed)

Final Winner/Loser? You decide.



Personally, I like the idea of taking Monk until at least level 8 (for the 2nd bonus Flurry attack), maybe level 10, and then Multi-classing.

[Dr_S]

Stat-to-damage with Bows/Crossbows is a pain.
Could you explain this a bit?
The way I see it I'll have the pre-reqs and if I go crossbowman I won't need str, and I can pick it up early.

we pre-rolled stats (everyone in the group rolled 1 stat) and we got
17
15
15
14
12
11

I really was thinking of starting with the crossbowman archetype for warrior though I appreciate all the comparisons you threw out just in case. I tend to play skill monkeys normally... so I was thinking 15 con, 15, int, 14 wis?

Other than getting crossbow mastery by level 6 (perhaps later if I take vital strike) I'm just overwhelmed by the sheer number of feats and I don't really know which to consider.

[Cieyrin]

The problem here is that due to feat prereqs, guided hand doesn't make for a SAD archer.

True but it's not as necessary, since Dex 13 gets you along pretty well unless you want Manyshot, Improved Precise Shot or something like that.


Could you explain this a bit?
The way I see it I'll have the pre-reqs and if I go crossbowman I won't need str, and I can pick it up early.

we pre-rolled stats (everyone in the group rolled 1 stat) and we got
17
15
15
14
12
11

I really was thinking of starting with the crossbowman archetype for warrior though I appreciate all the comparisons you threw out just in case. I tend to play skill monkeys normally... so I was thinking 15 con, 15, int, 14 wis?

Other than getting crossbow mastery by level 6 (perhaps later if I take vital strike) I'm just overwhelmed by the sheer number of feats and I don't really know which to consider.

If you're all for Crossbows, I'd probably go Crossbow Ranger over Crossbowman Fighter, which also lets you skill monkey with 6+Int skills while getting nice crossbow feats earlier than other classes without having to jump through the hoops for meeting prereqs.

The majority of archery feats are relevant to crossbows, though you tend to need more feats to keep up. Basically, that means Point Blank, Precise, Rapid, Deadly Aim, Clustered Shots, Hammer the Gap and Snap Shot are all good feats to pursue.

[Fax Celestis]

Play a marksman (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8lt4?Psionics-Expanded-Find-the-Mark)! I'm playing one now, and it is hands-down freaking awesome. You can find the base psionic rules on d20pfsrd.com.

[Dr_S]

Lets pretend I've decided to go fighter as I had suggested in my original post but decided to slip over to Archer for Bows (in reality i'm considering my options but this exercise has 2 benefits, 1) it helps me learn what feats exist because picking feats is always something I struggle with, and 2) it'll give me a clearer picture of what a fighter will look like for when I'm comparing)

ok so we're starting at level 2, but this is expected to be a longer campaign so I wouldn't mind having a few levels planned out ahead of time.

Human Fighter 2 Feats:
1: Point Blank
1: Rapid Shot
1: Deadly Aim
2: Precise Shot

Next few levels:
3: Weapon Focus
4: Weapon Specialization
5: Bullseye Shot
6: Many Shot
7: Clustered Shots
8: Hammer the Gap
9: Impact Critical
10: Weapon Focus, Greater

Comments? Concerns? Complaints?
Also if you want to take this further go ahead.

I also looked at:
Snap Shot
Focussed Shot
Opening Volley
Disrupting Shot
Dodge/Mobility/Shot On the Run
Dodge/Mobility/Side Step
Dodge/Wind Stance/Lightning Stance

but I'm not really sure how to compare those to the ones I've picked... so yeah, how does it all look? can I afford to push any of these back to later levels to include the stuff from below?

[grarrrg]

ok so we're starting at level 2, but this is expected to be a longer campaign so I wouldn't mind having a few levels planned out ahead of time.

Human Fighter 2 Feats:
1: Point Blank
1: Rapid Shot
1: Deadly Aim
2: Precise Shot

Next few levels:
3: Weapon Focus
4: Weapon Specialization
5: Bullseye Shot
6: Many Shot
7: Clustered Shots
8: Hammer the Gap
9: Impact Critical
10: Weapon Focus, Greater

Comments? Concerns? Complaints?
Also if you want to take this further go ahead.

I also looked at:
Dodge/Wind Stance/Lightning Stance

I'd advise moving Deadly aim down a bit, as at low levels the lost accuracy hurts, and the extra damage isn't that great. Still worth taking mind you, but not as a 1st level feat.

Also, you do NOT want Lightning Stance. It only activates if you Double-Move in a round. Good for running away, not so good for actual fighting.

[Cieyrin]

I'd advise moving Deadly aim down a bit, as at low levels the lost accuracy hurts, and the extra damage isn't that great. Still worth taking mind you, but not as a 1st level feat.

Also, you do NOT want Lightning Stance. It only activates if you Double-Move in a round. Good for running away, not so good for actual fighting.

You can maintain offense while using Lightning Stance through Parting Shot, which lets you make a ranged attack as part of a withdrawal but its only once per combat, so YMMV.

[Dr_S]

I'd advise moving Deadly aim down a bit, as at low levels the lost accuracy hurts, and the extra damage isn't that great. Still worth taking mind you, but not as a 1st level feat.

Also, you do NOT want Lightning Stance. It only activates if you Double-Move in a round. Good for running away, not so good for actual fighting.

Ah I misread that, I was thinking that the concealment would be good when if possible combined with shot on the run, but 20% from 4 feats and not being able to full attack sort of negates that.

Also does Hammer the gap add extra damage from Many Shot?
If not I might move it down.

I also reread opening volley... (so pretend I didn't write that one down)

Side Step seems like it could be useful occasionally but dag that's a lot of feats to get it.

[grarrrg]

Also does Hammer the gap add extra damage from Many Shot?
If not I might move it down.

Hmmm.....
Hammer the Gap:

each consecutive hit against the same opponent deals extra damage equal to the number of previous consecutive hits
Manyshot:

attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit

It depends on if you define "hit" as a successful attack roll, or as an attack dealing damage (yes that sound stupid, but bear with me).
A Manyshot attack uses ONE attack roll, but the text makes it explicitly clear that you hit TWICE.

I'd rule that you get NO bonus damage if the Manyshot hits, but your next shot/hit will be at +2 Hammer Damage, because two arrows hit previously. The reason why neither of the first arrows gets damage is because they hit simultaneously.


I also reread opening volley... (so pretend I didn't write that one down)

That's what the 'edit' button is for...:smallwink:

As for your other listed feats, Focused Shot can be handy at low levels, and if you find yourself moving a lot, but you'll almost always be better off just Full-Attacking. Alternately, take it as a Fighter Bonus feat, and then trade it away at Fighter 4 or Fighter 8 for a different feat.
Depending on your Int-mod Vital Strike (and Imp/Great versions) may be a better option for Single shots.

In a similar vein, you'll probably want to skip Bullseye Shot as well, as it costs a Move action to gain +4 to one attack roll. If you're worried about hitting your target, then just DON'T use Rapid Shot/Deadly Aim.


If you stick with Fighter for the most part, then you should definitely pick up the Snap Shot line of feats.
You might also consider 3 levels of Zen Archer Monk if you're using a Bow (and NOT a crossbow).
You get a choice of Bonus Feat at levels 1 & 2, Perfect Strike at level 1, Weapon Focus at level 2, and Point-Blank Master at level 3.
5 feats for just 3 levels is a pretty good deal.

[Dr_S]

ok see, and that means if I miss with the second shot I get no bonus,
where as if I were to hit with all of them I get up to 5 extra damage (2 on the second roll, 3 on the last if my DM rules like you do)

I guess I'll have to talk to my DM, despite what you said, earlier this seems like an instance where focused shot would be better for me earlier on (since that'll add +1/+2 to each hit regardless of how many consecutive shots I hit with...

**edit because apparently I didn't finish reading your post and misinterpreted the feat's description**

[Dr_S]

Ok, that's actually a good point about focused shot, and bullseye shot...

the thing about snapshot was that it didn't seem like people would be within 5' of me very often, and when they were, provoking AoO's frequently, maybe at 15' (since it says an additional 10', not out to 10') for improved, but still doesn't seem like it'd come up that often, as an archer I'm probably trying to keep my distance in most cases... (though I guess an opponent charging me would get an arrow to the face)

[Cieyrin]

You might also consider 3 levels of Zen Archer Monk if you're using a Bow (and NOT a crossbow).
You get a choice of Bonus Feat at levels 1 & 2, Perfect Strike at level 1, Weapon Focus at level 2, and Point-Blank Master at level 3.
5 feats for just 3 levels is a pretty good deal.

Featwise, sure, though Flurry being currently nonfunctional for Zen Archers (since you can't TWF with one bow) is something to consider heavily. Perfect Strike is definitely better than Bullseye Shot, though, and Weapon Focus is a requirement of Snap Shot.

[Dr_S]

Hmmm.....
You might also consider 3 levels of Zen Archer Monk if you're using a Bow (and NOT a crossbow).
You get a choice of Bonus Feat at levels 1 & 2, Perfect Strike at level 1, Weapon Focus at level 2, and Point-Blank Master at level 3.
5 feats for just 3 levels is a pretty good deal.

I've considered this,
fighter's first 2 levels also get the same bonus feats (so then the question is do Perfect Strike, Weapon Focus, and Point-Blank Master equal greater than the fighter stuff)

Point-Blank Master is something I'll technically get later down the Archer tree (not until 9 but with 5' steps I'm not sure how worried I am about provoking AoO's)

Perfect strike is nice, super nice. I'll leave it at that.

Weapon Focus is good too, but a lot of the feats I listed or wanted and didn't list either require level 6+ except the dodge stuff which I'm becoming less and less sure about. So I'm not sure I want to front load my feats.

More importantly it pushes trick shot back to level 6 and "improved" trick shot back to 14? and i only learn 1 Combat maneuver per iteration of it, so I'd rather be getting that at level 3.

I also figured out a valid use for Bullseye Shot.
Bullseye + Trick Shot (if my DM allows it, which isn't exactly RAW but I was also going to ask him why my trick shot uses my CMB which uses strength instead of Dex if i'm firing a bow and see if he buys that... then I'll ask about Bullseye shot)

Actually if I can't use my Dex for my CMB trick shot isn't all that good, -4 plus I gotta use my str instead of my Dex means a total of -6 against a CMD which from my experience is typically higher than AC. So I might want to cram Agile Maneuvers in there somewhere if my DM rules against me.

[grarrrg]

Featwise, sure, though Flurry being currently nonfunctional for Zen Archers (since you can't TWF with one bow) is something to consider heavily. Perfect Strike is definitely better than Bullseye Shot, though, and Weapon Focus is a requirement of Snap Shot.

Functionality notwithstanding:
You'll note I said "5 feats / 3 levels" and not "6 feats / 3 levels".
He'll have to take Rapid Shot anyway to qualify for some of the other good stuff, and you can't Flurry AND Rapid Shot.


I've considered this,
fighter's first 2 levels also get the same bonus feats (so then the question is do Perfect Strike, Weapon Focus, and Point-Blank Master equal greater than the fighter stuff)

More importantly it pushes trick shot back to level 6 and "improved" trick shot back to 14? and i only learn 1 Combat maneuver per iteration of it, so I'd rather be getting that at level 3.

I'm not suggesting you go exclusively Monk. Just suggesting a dip at some point (earlier than later).
2 levels of Fighter (NOT the first 2 levels) only give 1 feat.
The first 2 levels of Monk give _4_ feats, the 3rd level gives 1 additional feat.
2 of the Monk feats you get to choose, 2 of the fixed feats you'd probably take sooner or later anyway, the only odd one is Perfect Strike, and that's only because of it's limited uses per day.

Maybe Fighter 3/Monk 3/Fighter +X?


Weapon Focus is good too, but a lot of the feats I listed or wanted and didn't list either require level 6+ except the dodge stuff which I'm becoming less and less sure about. So I'm not sure I want to front load my feats.

Fighter can 'retrain' their bonus feats at levels 4, 8, 12, etc... (only 1 feat each time though)
So go ahead and front load some feats with Fighter, you can trade them out as you level.


Point-Blank Master is something I'll technically get later down the Archer tree (not until 9 but with 5' steps I'm not sure how worried I am about provoking AoO's)

It's not the movement you have to worry about, firing a Bow provokes AoO's. Point Blank Master lets you not provoke AoO's.

[Dr_S]

It's not the movement you have to worry about, firing a Bow provokes AoO's. Point Blank Master lets you not provoke AoO's.

Right but I can 5' and fire a full attack, is what I meant without provoking things without reach.

[grarrrg]

Right but I can 5' and fire a full attack, is what I meant without provoking things without reach.

True, but it is still nice to get (at some point), on the off chance you get surrounded and 'step'ing isn't an option.

[Dr_S]

True, but it is still nice to get (at some point), on the off chance you get surrounded and 'step'ing isn't an option.

right, at level 9 for archer.

[grarrrg]

right, at level 9 for archer.

Oh, hey, did you know that Archer archetype Fighters effectively get Point-Blank Master at level 9? It's called Safe Shot and it only works with Bows.
You don't have to take the 3rd level of Zen Archer, the first 2 levels are still nice for double feats though.
*NINJA TEXT!* I. am. a. moron. *NINJA TEXT!*

[Dr_S]

anywho, I'll think on the monk stuff, but I just got news that our DM is a turd... we showed up last night and decided to finish off the previous campaign instead of start the new one, (we werent' sure if the DM from the original campaign was going to make it) but then the new DM was like "oh btw have modern characters ready for next week too and we'll decide then which to play... which I think means we're going to play modern because he's going to "forget" the stuff for the archer's setting... so this all may be moot until we've played a few weeks of modern and someone else decides to step up and DM.

[grarrrg]

"oh btw have modern characters ready for next week too and we'll decide then which to play...

Modern huh? I assume 'magic' is still in play?

Pull a Gundolon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12152413#post12152413) on him, that's what I'd do.

Course...that's my solution to most problems...

[Dr_S]

What happened was we were all sitting around the table discussing what we wanted to play next, and he goes, "How about we play modern,"
and everyone goes, "meh" and I'm like "I've never played modern *concerned*"

and someone else goes, "well we can play Maelstride" (Which is homebrew setting made up by the entire group to play pathfinder in with a rotating DM)

and I'm all "sure" and the group's all "YEAH!" and the guy who wanted to DM modern goes "well I'll DM first then!"

then the next week we show up and he's like "well I got something prepared for both, but the Maelstride thing will only be a 1-shot so bring both characters ready to go for next week."

To which people are all like "fine whatever," and I'm like "wait I'm going to need some help rolling out a modern character"

and then I'm told "it's just like 3.5" which is true-ish, but apparently I'm on my own for making a modern character.

and I think the magic that is allowed is the stuff from Urban Arcana, since there doesn't seem to be any in the modern core book or whatever it's called.

[Cieyrin]

What happened was we were all sitting around the table discussing what we wanted to play next, and he goes, "How about we play modern,"
and everyone goes, "meh" and I'm like "I've never played modern *concerned*"

and someone else goes, "well we can play Maelstride" (Which is homebrew setting made up by the entire group to play pathfinder in with a rotating DM)

and I'm all "sure" and the group's all "YEAH!" and the guy who wanted to DM modern goes "well I'll DM first then!"

then the next week we show up and he's like "well I got something prepared for both, but the Maelstride thing will only be a 1-shot so bring both characters ready to go for next week."

To which people are all like "fine whatever," and I'm like "wait I'm going to need some help rolling out a modern character"

and then I'm told "it's just like 3.5" which is true-ish, but apparently I'm on my own for making a modern character.

and I think the magic that is allowed is the stuff from Urban Arcana, since there doesn't seem to be any in the modern core book or whatever it's called.

You can get all that from the d20 Modern SRD, here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd). I've never played it and don't much care for the classes, I just know Wizards put the whole thing online.