Was Girard the Belkar of his adventuring party?

[gomipile]

So, I've been thinking. Girard's attitude towards the rest of his former partners makes him kind of a [redacted] to begin with. What if he and the rest of his family share the alignment of their black dragon ancestors? Their black dragon ancestry was displayed respectfully and proudly on the wall of their common room, after all.

So, illusionist+Belkar like comedic chaotic evil attitude=??? Maybe his party only kept him around in the old days because he was useful and for the same types of reasons Roy keeps Belkar around.

Just a thought. :D

[fergo]

It's an interesting thought, but I got the impression that Girard still had his friends in the party (at least Durukon was on his side in that scene where they're confronting Soon). If anything, I'd say he was more popular than Soon.

Now, Soon was the leader of the party, and I can imagine that he and Girard butted heads more than most. So maybe Soon thought of Girard in the same way Roy thinks about Belkar.

But I'd still say Girard doesn't have an evil allignment... guarding a rift in the fabric of the universe isn't really an evil thing to do. His methods may be questionable, but the act itself isn't.

Sure, you could justify an evil character still making the choice to dedicate their life to defending the universe (what's the point of being evil if the world gets destroyed?). But I don't think so, in this case.

[Chess Tyrant]

Illusionist = waaaaaay too much subtlety to mirror Belkar directly. On the other hand, Girard could be a Shojo-like character: someone who doesn't follow or respect the normal rules of society, preferring to stand aside and reject normal life in favor of a personal goal. Girard might view Belkar as a kindred spirit, since they're both a lot more sociopathic than Shojo ever was, and Belkar got along great with him.

Plus, Girard took two levels of ranger and dual-wields weapons.

[gomipile]

Sure, you could justify an evil character still making the choice to dedicate their life to defending the universe (what's the point of being evil if the world gets destroyed?). But I don't think so, in this case.

From The Onslaught story arc:

I do not wish to rule a planet of cinder and ash.

[oppyu]

I've always pictured it as
Roy - Soon
Haley - Girard
Elan - Sereni
Durkon - Lirian
Vaarsuvius - Dorukan
Belkar - Kraagor

Especially since Belkar looks like being the first one to join the afterlife. Aside from Durkon not having a relationship with V, it fits.

[RMS Oceanic]

So, I've been thinking. Girard's attitude towards the rest of his former partners makes him kind of a [redacted] to begin with. What if he and the rest of his family share the alignment of their black dragon ancestors? Their black dragon ancestry was displayed respectfully and proudly on the wall of their common room, after all.

So, illusionist+Belkar like comedic chaotic evil attitude=??? Maybe his party only kept him around in the old days because he was useful and for the same types of reasons Roy keeps Belkar around.

Just a thought. :D

The bolded text is where I see the flaw in your thinking. If you look back at his son-of-a-bitch message to Soon, and even to the three way argument during the crayon segment, the harsh words are aimed pretty much at Soon. I see no evidence he felt any animosity to the other surviving members.

My suspicion - although as has been said by Rich himself on at least one occasion that we don't have the complete story yet, so this is a guess - is that the intra-party tensions revolved around Girard and Soon's ethical contrast. Before Kraagor died, I suspect the other four could talk to either Soon or Girard without much problem, but between Soon and Girard there was always that strain because of their outlooks. The nature of Kraagor's death was just enough stress to break those bonds. Unlike Belkar with only Haley and Celia to (fail to) keep him in check while the Order was split up, I think pre-gate Girard would be able to keep the more urgent world-ending quest in mind.

[Chess Tyrant]

I've always pictured it as
Belkar - Kraagor

Also, Belkar and Kraagor are both barbarians.

[gomipile]

Well, going by standard D&D logic, his alignment would almost certainly have to be Chaotic Neutral if he isn't evil if his draconic ancestor was Chaotic Evil.

If OOTS dragons aren't Colour-Coded for Your Convenience (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ColourCodedForYourConvenience) then all bets are off on alignment prediction via this route, of course.

[RMS Oceanic]

Well, going by standard D&D logic, his alignment would almost certainly have to be Chaotic Neutral if he isn't evil if his draconic ancestor was Chaotic Evil.

If OOTS dragons aren't Colour-Coded for Your Convenience (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ColourCodedForYourConvenience) then all bets are off on alignment prediction via this route, of course.

Once human DNA enters the mix, alignment is not "inherited" like that. Girard and his descendants are free to be any alignment they want, and only their upbringing may influence where they end up.

[PebbleInTheSky]

It seems to fit the evidence, certainly. While some of the parts may be explainable on their own, everything we learn about the Draketooths combined seems to point to neutrality or evil.

Verbal sniping at party members (mild, proves nothing by itself, but it is our first impression of Girard IIRC)

Feuding with a LG paladin (explainable by Girard being chaotic and Soon possibly being a Miko 2.0. Though Soon's ghost seemed relatively reasonable, maybe he used to be more fanatical)

Setting an anti-paladin/Soon booby trap, followed by gloating (starting to paint a picture of a real jerk here)

The implication that the family propogates itself by marriage under false pretenses, kidnapping the resulting child and stealing their spouse's money. This would go on for around a year (9 months+the time it takes to wean an infant)

Painting a Mural displaying your chromatic dragon ancestry? Maybe Girard and Co. love their progenitiors despite the Chaotic evil alignment, but it seems more likely the
Draketooths take after Great-Grandma/Grandpa.


What good we have seen then do (protecting reality) is arguably within the self interest of a nongood, or simply paranoid person to do as well.

[rbetieh]

So, I've been thinking. Girard's attitude towards the rest of his former partners makes him kind of a [redacted] to begin with. What if he and the rest of his family share the alignment of their black dragon ancestors? Their black dragon ancestry was displayed respectfully and proudly on the wall of their common room, after all.

So, illusionist+Belkar like comedic chaotic evil attitude=??? Maybe his party only kept him around in the old days because he was useful and for the same types of reasons Roy keeps Belkar around.

Just a thought. :D

Well, I would say he is the wisecracker of the group, so in that sense he is Belkar-like. But Belkars outlook is one of Society is a bad thing in and of itself, which is not shared by anyone that makes a big deal of forming a tight-knit society as Girard has created.

The party actually did stick together, Dorukan and Liriam were definately in contact with each other (breaking the oath). Girard implies that he still had ties to Serini (breaking the oath). The only one that kept his word was Soon, which makes me muse that the other 4 cast him out specifically. Why, is the question.

[Manga Maniac]

I do think the Order of the Scribble are in some ways meant to parallel and contrast with the Order of the Stick, much like the Linear Guild. But I wouldn't put Girard and Belkar together.

For instance, Soon is Lawful Good and the leader of the party, much like Roy. But Roy is a lot less all "honour is unbreakable" about it. They're similar, but they're not the same person. So I suppose I might seeing things where there's nothing to see.

Girard is distrustful from what we've seen (although admittedly, that must just be towards Soon), much like Haley. But Haley has worked on her trust issues, and eventually fell in love with Elan.

Serini is basically the opposite of Belkar. A Halfling who everyone likes and is the voice of reason. I suppose this role is also somewhat shared by Haley in the Order, who I don't think is disliked much by any of the Order members, but I file that under coincidence. Could be wrong though.

Dorukan is a wizard, much like V. I don't see much similarities, but I suppose V was a lot more cold, while Dorukan was in love with Lirian; and I suppose V has learnt a bit from the soul splice incident.

Lirian? Well, Durkon's the only one that's left, but there's not too much similarities nor contrasting differences. Ah well, can't get too worked up over these things.

[t209]

Once human DNA enters the mix, alignment is not "inherited" like that. Girard and his descendants are free to be any alignment they want, and only their upbringing may influence where they end up.

Even if it was a black dragon, he might be token good or took Girard's grandmother as pleasure slave.

[Morty]

I think people are trying too hard to find parallels between the Order of the Stick and the Order of the Scribble and finding similarities that aren't there. We know Girard hated Soon, but we have no idea about his feelings about the other members of the team. We also know that we haven't seen the exact circumstances that drove such a wedge between those two yet. So no, I don't think that Girard was his team's Belkar.

[Nurlithion]

I think it's pretty clear-cut: paladins can't associate with evil characters, and yet we have no indication that Soon ever lost his powers (he even lays down some smiting on Xykon and Recloak), so Girard can't be evil.

[silvadel]

I've always pictured it as
Roy - Soon
Haley - Girard
Elan - Sereni
Durkon - Lirian
Vaarsuvius - Dorukan
Belkar - Kraagor

Especially since Belkar looks like being the first one to join the afterlife. Aside from Durkon not having a relationship with V, it fits.

Heh -- I looked at it more as:

Lirian -- Druid Haley
Soon -- Mature Miko
Girard -- Semi-Darth V
Dorukon -- Durkon if he was Arcane
Kraggor -- Roy without the INT
Serini -- Elan + Belkar as odd as that sounds.

[Bobb]

Xykon would defend the rift from anyone who would use it to destroy the world.

[rbetieh]

Xykon would defend the rift from anyone who would use it to destroy the world.

Unless he got bored..... You did mean :xykon: right?

[DrBurr]

I doubt Girard was the Belkar of the scribbles, from what we've seen the only person he didn't have a good relationship with was Soon Kim. He seems to have been best buds with Kraagor hence why he would be mad at Kraagor's death, and must be on good terms with Serini seeing as she liked him and he gave her the True coordinates of the gate.

As for his alignment which seems to be the secondary issue of this thread, I always pegged him as Chaotic Good much like Ian or Haley.

[MReav]

As for his alignment which seems to be the secondary issue of this thread, I always pegged him as Chaotic Good much like Ian or Haley.

Haley once described herself as Chaotic Good-ish. It's possible he underwent an alignment shift. He used to be a Chaotic Good character liek Haley and Ian, but shifted to Chaotic Neutral at some point, perhaps when his paranoia got the better of him.

Illusionists are not alignment bound.

[King of Nowhere]

I tend to see the order of the scribble as good opposites of the ooots, just like the linear guild are their evil opposites. For the ootscribble, the respectie ootsers would never get along with them even if they share alignment.
My matching is
Roy-Soon
Haley-Serini
Elan-Girard
V-Dorukan
Durkon-Lirian
Belkar-Kraagor

Roy and soon both are lawful good figther types party members. However, soon was apparently a stick-up-the-ass paadin (not as much as miko, but still enough to piss the rest of the party). Roy needed to adapt a lot to make his party work, and with soon unable to get the same character growth, the ootscribble shattered

Haley and serini both are rogues and in love with the party illusionist. However, while haley tries to avoid having other people close to her and prefer to lie and not become close with anyone (at least, before her character development) Serini looked very spontaneous and explicit in her emotions. She seem the opposite of the lying, manipulative type haley was at the beginning of the story.

Elan andd girard are both chaotic illusionists, but while girard is very paranoid about other people, elan gives his trust freely.

V and Dorukan were the mages, but Dorukan had a strong love story while V neglected his partner leading to divorce.

Lirian and Durkon are the divine casters and healers, but lirian is a tree-hugger, nuff said.

And we don't know much about kraagor, exxcept that he looks a bit on the phsyco side. And he died at the end of the gates campaign.

This is my opinion on the order of the scribble
However,

I think people are trying too hard to find parallels between the Order of the Stick and the Order of the Scribble and finding similarities that aren't there. We know Girard hated Soon, but we have no idea about his feelings about the other members of the team. We also know that we haven't seen the exact circumstances that drove such a wedge between those two yet. So no, I don't think that Girard was his team's Belkar.
given that no twoo people can apparently agree on what are the real parallels between the two parties, morty is probably rigth.

I'm qute hoping rich would clear this point in some commentary.

[Kish]

I think it's pretty clear-cut: paladins can't associate with evil characters, and yet we have no indication that Soon ever lost his powers (he even lays down some smiting on Xykon and Recloak), so Girard can't be evil.
Someone once asked why Roy wouldn't take paladin levels, as a Lawful Good fighter.

Rich replied that if Roy did that, he would lose his ability to tolerate Belkar being in the party.

[Mr. Pants]

Good thing Vaarsuvius's Familicide spell got him...:smallsmile:

[cloudland]

If anything, I would put Soon as being the Belkar of his adventuring party, as his strong sense of honor and good (and perhaps vengence for his dead wife as well) stand in stark constrast with the rest of the party.
As for the rest:
-Dorukan: Vaarsavius, highly focus on research and the main goal, and is willing to put self-interest before the mission (aka. neutral).
-Lirian: Elan, too good and naive for her own good.
-Kraagor: Durkon, straightforward personality, nothing special, completely bland, and lacking any kind of mysterious past.
-Girard: Haley, paranoid, lying.
-Serini: Roy, the voice of reason and mediation between party. The party split when Roy is not around.

(disclaimer: not a perfect bijection of course, but once I try to do a bijection, it can't be helped that there would be some round peg and square hole).

[Tulya]

Verbal sniping at party members (mild, proves nothing by itself, but it is our first impression of Girard IIRC)
It means nothing at all in any circumstance, really. Two extremely Lawful Good characters can still have strife with each other for any number of reasons.

Except the recklessly exploding anyone who goes to the pre-recorded message, everything else is adequately explained by Chaotic ideals. Chaotic character are significantly more likely to engage in behaviors in violation of law and established social mores in the pursuit of a greater goal, and the Draketooths are working to preserve Existence itself from the ravages of the Snarl.

On the matter of the lineage chart, even if the black dragons are revered, it's not necessarily for their common Evil nature. For one, many people are of the sentiment that for better or worse, family is family: You don't have to agree with them, but you do owe them a certain modicum of basic respect, love and loyalty. But also, draconic heritage tends to confer certain gifts, including an affinity for the Arcane arts. The Draketooths may be embracing the blessing they've received more so than the source.

In any event, Detect Evil is an at-will ability for paladins, and Soon was the party leader. It seems extremely unlikely that Soon would willingly associate with an Evil character, although there are spells to mask alignment.

[martianmister]

Girard could change his alignment from CN to CE.

[LadyEowyn]

Girard can't have been Chaotic Evil, because a paladin who works with a CE character loses their powers. What we've seen of him points towards him being Chaotic Neutral - if anything, his role as a character is to be sort of the inverse of Miko, a character who takes Chaotic as far as she took Lawful, to the point of their actions being counterproductive.

And while pretty much nobody in the Order of the Stick gets along well with Belkar, Girard didn't seem to get along badly with all the members of the Order of the Scribble, just with Soon.

I've spent some time trying to work out which members of the Scribble parallel which members of the Stick, and it doesn't seem to connect that way - I give Rich a lot of credit for making the Order of the Scribble unique characters in their own right, and not just a mirror or earlier version of the Order of the Stick.

But the closest parallels I can get between the group are:
- Soon:Roy - both the leaders of their parties, both with the strongest personal connection to the quest, both Lawful Good
- Haley:Girard - both Chaotic redheads with an understanding of deception; however, Haley's less Chaotic than Girard and Roy's less Lawful than Soon, so she and Roy get along well rather than having the contentious relationship that Soon and Girard had
- Serini:Elan - the talkative (to the point of annoying), optimistic, somewhat naive member of the group who tends to assume the best of people until proven otherwise. Though Lirian is of a similar "sweet" temperament and also has the same hair colour as Elan.
- Dorukan:Vaarsuvius - they're both mages; really nothing more to the connection than that.
- Lirian:Durkon - I hadn't thought of anything to connect them, but points to the above poster for noting they're similar character types and have opposite attitudes to trees.

It would be interesting if the group's "Belkar" figure was Kraagor, so that Girard had more reason to feel Soon had been cavalier about sacrificing him. The only thing that I have to back up this speculation is Serini writing "mean" by Kraagor's picture in her diary.

[The Glyphstone]

So, just as a thought exercise, the following pairings have so far been suggested as Stick-Scribble analogues:

Roy = Soon, Serini, Kraagor,
Haley = Girard, Serini, Lirian
Elan = Serini, Lirian, Girard,
Vaarsuvius = Dorukan, Girard
Durkon = Lirian, Kraagor, Dorukan
Belkar = Kraagor, Soon


So the only thing we can agree on is that we can't agree on anything.

[2xMachina]

What about Miko and Belkar? They did somewhat associate for a while.

[RMS Oceanic]

What about Miko and Belkar? They did somewhat associate for a while.

1. Despite her best efforts, she never proved conclusively that he was evil.
2. The whole arc could be argued as Miko escorting prisoners she was brining into custody, rather than associating with them.

[MReav]

What about Miko and Belkar? They did somewhat associate for a while.

Their relationship was that of Warden and Prisoner, and she wasn't absolutely sure he was evil until the fight where she ended up shackling him.

[Saph]

Girard can't have been Chaotic Evil, because a paladin who works with a CE character loses their powers.

They actually don't, although it's a very common belief.

If you look at the paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm) class, the three things that cause a paladin to fall are:

• ceasing to be lawful good
• willfully committing an evil act
• grossly violating their code of conduct.

Paladins generally won't associate with evil characters, but this isn't because they're forced to, it's because they don't want to. There aren't any listed consequences for doing it.

So Soon could have worked with Girard despite Girard being CE, but if I had to guess I'd peg Girard as the more obnoxious brand of CN. (He's almost certainly not Good considering the booby-trap incident.)

[Fish]

Why can't Girard be the Girard of his party? Rich knows how to create more characters than just six.

[rbetieh]

Why can't Girard be the Girard of his party? Rich knows how to create more characters than just six.

He most certainly does, but he has Tarquin posit that a 6-man band has certain narrative roles that must be fullfilled, and the Scribbles are a 6-man band.....

[Fish]

Tarquin doesn't propose that all six have narrative roles; five are mentioned as having tactical roles.

And do you really expect Rich intends Tarquin to be right?

[Gift Jeraff]

Girard was actually the Soon of his adventuring party.

[allenw]

What about Miko and Belkar? They did somewhat associate for a while.

And look what happened. :smallwink:

[cloudland]

Of course we can't draw a complete parallel between these 2 parties, as they are all unique. That's why we are looking at a specific aspect of the party only, namely, the dynamics of the relationship between party member, which make the bijection more sensible.

[Paseo H]

And do you really expect Rich intends Tarquin to be right?

Sometimes the psychos are right. Look at Dark Knight

Joker kinda had a point about how people who are more subjectively moral will often just throw their principles aside when it becomes inconvenient

Anyway, I'd say:

Soon: Roy
Serini: Elan
Lirian: Haley
Dorukan: V
Girard: Belkar
Kraagor: Durkon

That's my impression from the relevant panel here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)

[Gift Jeraff]

Since Lawfulness is a huge part of Durkon's character, and barbarians can't be Lawful, I can't see Kraagor being Durkon's counterpart unless you're making them opposites.

[Paseo H]

Since Lawfulness is a huge part of Durkon's character, and barbarians can't be Lawful, I can't see Kraagor being Durkon's counterpart unless you're making them opposites.

It's not meant to be an absolutely perfect one to one correspondence. It's just meant to be enough.

[oppyu]

My Scribble/Stick Comparisons

Soon/Roy: Lawful Good fighters and leaders.
Girard/Haley: Chaotic redheads, supplemental fighters (not frontline warriors, but not useless in battles either). Contrasting alignment to leader. Possibly both romantically entangled with Serini/Elan
Serini/Elan: The hearts of their teams, naive, nice, possible romantic link with Girard/Haley. Prone to making mistakes (at this point, it's safe to say Serini did something wrong with her journals.)
Lirian/Durkon: Divine castors, 2nd member of their teams (Roy found Durkon first, Soon found Lirian first).
Dorukan/V: Wizards, love studying spells, use long words, have a tendency to be wet blankets. ("If it means she'll march in stoic silence from now on, I wholeheartedly support it.")
Kraagor/Belkar: Levels in barbarian, short, both die early.

[t209]

Serini/Elan: The hearts of their teams, naive, nice, possible romantic link with Girard/Haley. Prone to making mistakes (at this point, it's safe to say Serini did something wrong with her journals.)

Objection! Serini loved Kragoor at some point of the story.

[Gift Jeraff]

Objection! Serini loved Kragoor at some point of the story.What? Just because she cried about his death? Are you saying people who cry over the deaths of their parents and pets are romantically linked to their parents and pets?

Unless you mean loved him as a friend, but I doubt that's what you meant. Though some people would cry even over the death of a total stranger, so really, her tears mean nothing about her relationship with Kraagor.

People were making the same arguments about Thanh/Niu and Lirian/Kraagor pairings and quite frankly I find this "woman sad about the death of a man is obviously in love with that man" line of thinking to be an immature oversimplification of human(oid) emotions.

[SoC175]

So, I've been thinking. Girard's attitude towards the rest of his former partners makes him kind of a [redacted] to begin with. What if he and the rest of his family share the alignment of their black dragon ancestors? Their black dragon ancestry was displayed respectfully and proudly on the wall of their common room, after all.

So, illusionist+Belkar like comedic chaotic evil attitude=??? Maybe his party only kept him around in the old days because he was useful and for the same types of reasons Roy keeps Belkar around.

Just a thought. :DActually Soon was the Belkar of the party. It wasn't Girad who started to attack Soon, it was Dorukan and Girad just stood by his ally's side. No one stood with Soon.

[rbetieh]

Actually Soon was the Belkar of the party. It wasn't Girad who started to attack Soon, it was Dorukan and Girad just stood by his ally's side. No one stood with Soon.


I agree with this, as I have mentioned before. The "oath" was just a way to get the LG character to go away. It is clear that the other 4 were still in contact if not all of them then at least some were in contact with some others. They didnt like Soon are kicked him out, a reasonable thing to do to Mr. Morality Cop IMO.

[Fish]

Sometimes the psychos are right. Look at Dark Knight
The Dark Knight is a story; as such, characters in it are "right" only when the author makes him right. So you really think Rich intends Tarquin to be right? Or that there is only one model ever for any dungeon party?

[Paseo H]

The Dark Knight is a story; as such, characters in it are "right" only when the author makes him right. So you really think Rich intends Tarquin to be right? Or that there is only one model ever for any dungeon party?

I don't think it has to be one way or another. I'm just saying that Tarquin could be right on some specific point without it meaning the author agrees with him or his goals overall nor are we meant to root for him.

[Templarkommando]

I have the distinct impression that we don't know enough about the order of the scribble to reliably say that one character pairs with one from the OoTS. It's entirely possible that they do pair, but I feel like we don't have enough information at this particular juncture to say one way or the other as to who pairs with who.

Simply because the party has the same number of characters does not necessarily imply any analogy between them. It may simply be the largest number of players that the hypothetical campaign setting's DM was willing to tolerate. If that's true, there may be no direct analogy between individual characters at all.