What class should I seek?

[Balor01]

Hey guys and (cat)girls,

We are just starting a new 3.5 campaign, where I will AFTER A LONG TIME actualy be a PC and not a GM. Current GM is cool, all is fine, except that he brought out the Unholy Resounding Everpwning Warhammer of Nerf. Yes, I think sir Nerf would be proud of these shenanigans, so I came here to sort of »find a niche« in given limitations.

Here is how it is:
- you can not start a game a PC or NPC class(we will actually have commoner class + racial stats). We will have to take time and seek out a master, who will teach us a certain class in order to train us and give us that first level. Almost every hamlet has a couple of warriors around, barbarians can be found in th cold North, even smaller cities have Thieves guilds where you can, if you take time, become a rogue, etc ...
GM said (and he is a fair play guy) that if someone will want to play say, a warblade, he will have to ask around regarding »some warriors that use weapons, but exceed fighters in skill ...« and this will be sort of a sub-quest to find warblades and train with them.

He also decided to really maul tier 1 classes. Clerics and druids are raped »concept-wise«. If you are a cleric of Hextor, you must AT ALL TIMES plan some evil stuff that will buff your patron. If this does not happen, there go the powers. Same goes for paladins. Dedication or your god abandons you. Druids must maintain balance, uphold nature and its laws, so they are a common pest to miners and woodsmen. Sometimes this is a good reason for Kingdom to give out »wanted« rewards for adventurers to collect if they kill these druids. So if you are a druid you deal with forest-problems and not loot and breaking into some old tombs (even thou undead are unnatural and extermination of these is a-ok).
Lastly, wizardry is a jealously kept secret. Wizards are like nuclear weapons of chosen countries (all highest-rank aristocracy are wizards) who mainly spy on each others business and if someone leaks or unsanctioned teaches wizardry to unauthorized persons, he is … well, you know the drill.

Sorcerer class can not be taught. It is innate, people are born with this gift, so mechanicly, we will roll 1d100 at the start of campaign and if you roll 100 - yay, you are a Sorcerer, a rare and sought after asset of the Kingdom.

With all that, due to some wizards meddling, magic got nerfed. In a great arcane cataclysm, large part of existing mana got »burnt off« (The Great Burning) so, no spell stronger then lvl 5 may be cast from now on. Also, NO resurrection is possible. Spell scrolls may be unattainable at certain times (percentage chance that scroll is unavailable).

So, all this said, I'd like an opinion on what class should I strive to play? (With no cleric, maybe an alternative healer? Some obscure spellcaster? We'll need both) And if someone wants to rant regarding all these nerfs, thats ok too, just be polite. :smallsmile:

Edit&Update: No psions.

[hymer]

That GM had better be pretty darn good. I'd give it one session to see if it sucked, and no more. 1 in 100 chance of being a sorcerer if you want to play one? How about giving the GM a 1 in 100 chance when you face an opponent you don't want to to see if it's really there? Not constructive, sorry, but it just seems really unreasonable and controlfreakish to me.

As for what you should choose, well... What are your criteria? Are you trying to be versatile, strong in combat, what? Have you talked to the other players what they want to do? Aren't all divine spellcasters (so healers too) made out to be pretty much non-adventurers? Isn't there a god of adventurers you could be a cleric for?
Psionics I expect are gone, otherwise there's a clue who could be powerful in this campaign.

[NOhara24]

I wouldn't play in this game. The "No spells above level 5." really rustled my jimmies. As well as your DM basically saying how you should roleplay your characters based on class, and if you don't adhere to his rules, you're either dead or powerless.

Just don't play.

[gbprime]

Well if you want to be a spell caster under this GM, it sounds like you stick to a spell caster that doesn't ever get high level spells. Bards, for example. A bard can be a passable healer, combat booster, and skill monkey.

Mystic Ranger (Dragon 336) is also a cure for everything, being a full BAB ranger variant with strong spellcasting. But the ranger ethos and ranger spell list might cause you greif.

Warlock is another option, or perhaps even Binder, but neither of those is a great healer option.

[Flickerdart]

By the sound of it, your DM has engraved default class fluff into stone. This is terrible.

I recommend Psychic Rogue, Psychic Warrior or Bard. They don't get too hurt by the spell cap, should be easy enough to find and are respectable single-classed. Totemists would also be good. If you do get a psionic class, remember that psionic PrCs often lose manifester levels, which is totally not a problem if you can't cast high level stuff anyway, so feel free to grab Body Leech and not have to care about resurrection not existing because you won't be doing too much dying.

Edit: Haha, yes, use Wildshape Mystic Ranger and be Druid+. Or, and I just thought of this, grab a fullcaster arcanist, go into Archmage and spend all of your high-level slots you can't cast anyway on its juicy abilities.

[2xMachina]

Cleric of Hextor: Evil goal? Mess with the campaign setting.

EDIT: Portfolio: War, Discord, Massacres, Conflict, Fitness, Tyranny

Incite World War, Massacre the world leaders. Massacre all the other things related to crappy fluff. There shall be the tyranny of UNFLUFF!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I would make a Half-Orc, and start out Half-Orc Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halfOrcParagon). Make him run with a gang of street thugs and take Thug Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) with the Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) substitution levels. Get the feat Menacing Demeanor (RoD, CS), preferably via a visit to the Otyugh Hole (CS) rather than actually spending a feat on it. Definitely take Extra Rage, and I'd even consider picking up Intimidating Rage. See if you can take the regional feat Dreadful Wrath from PGtF as well.

[Balor01]

Allrighty.

@hymer
He is a really cool storymaker and our entire party actually likes current limitations. There are no "boo hoo, I wanna be a blingy sorcerer" types. What we want is some class that will replace cleric, I guess we will also need trapfinder and a meatshield.

@NOhara24
There are no spells above lvl 5, but there are spell slots. Metamagic FTW.

As well as your DM basically saying how you should roleplay your characters based on class, and if you don't adhere to his rules, you're either dead or powerless.
I do not really understand this part, sorry.

@gbprime
Yeah, was thinking bard also.

@2xMachina
Well we could ALL be clerics of the same god. Could be done.

@Biffoniacus_Furiou
Very nice, like like :smallbiggrin:

Update: Also, no psions.

[NOhara24]

I do not really understand this part, sorry.



Hey guys and (cat)girls,

He also decided to really maul tier 1 classes. Clerics and druids are raped »concept-wise«. If you are a cleric of Hextor, you must AT ALL TIMES plan some evil stuff that will buff your patron. If this does not happen, there go the powers. Same goes for paladins. Dedication or your god abandons you. Druids must maintain balance, uphold nature and its laws, so they are a common pest to miners and woodsmen. Sometimes this is a good reason for Kingdom to give out »wanted« rewards for adventurers to collect if they kill these druids. So if you are a druid you deal with forest-problems and not loot and breaking into some old tombs (even thou undead are unnatural and extermination of these is a-ok).
Lastly, wizardry is a jealously kept secret. Wizards are like nuclear weapons of chosen countries (all highest-rank aristocracy are wizards) who mainly spy on each others business and if someone leaks or unsanctioned teaches wizardry to unauthorized persons, he is … well, you know the drill.

Sorcerer class can not be taught. It is innate, people are born with this gift, so mechanicly, we will roll 1d100 at the start of campaign and if you roll 100 - yay, you are a Sorcerer, a rare and sought after asset of the Kingdom.




This entire paragraph is wrong. He is engraving what is intended to be class fluff in stone and creating ramifications for it. If you don't follow what he says your character should do, he penalizes you. That is horrible.

[Balor01]

@NOhara24
Oh, I think i get it now. Actually, the point is here to NOT play these classes. It is not the point that one of us would take say, a cleric, and be constantly harassed by these limitations. We will not play these clasess due to their limitations. Or, maybe, at certain point this may actually be the case (say, we all strongly go toward LG party and some become clerics and some paladins, etc ...)

[Gandariel]

How about Factotum?
Does some magic(but isn't hindered too much by the nerf), (limited) healing, and trapfinding.

[hymer]

As long as the players agree to it, NOhara24. I just felt he ought to say "No tier 1s or 2s" and be done with it. I'd be happy with that, but not with this "You can make one, but you'll suffer for it".

Anyway, unless the warlock's been hit with the same bat as the sorcerer, I'd probably go with that. I always have fun playing warlock, and UMD will solve your healing problems eventually (it's just scrolls you can't buy, right?). Until it does, you can pretty much leave healing problems to the GM - he must've thought of it with no classes from the beginning, and the threat on divine casters.
Maybe ask him to let the Healing skill actually do some real healing once every 24 hours or somesuch, maybe your ranger (if you get one) can throw some ranks in it.

[Namfuak]

Play a Cleric who follows the God from Draminicon that literally cares about nothing. Or play an Ur-Priest, their fluff doesn't specify that they have any particular ideals.

EDIT: Archivists and Artificers also do not have any deity or cause that they have to devote themselves to. All these suggestions are for playing tier 1 classes though, playing a bard or ranger would be good if you don't want to screw with the DM.

[2xMachina]

Cleric of Hextor (Divine)
Paladin of Tyranny of Hextor (tank)
Wizard apprentice worshipping Hextor (introduced to a wizard worshipping Hextor. "Meet this fine devotee of Hextor. The Church of Hextor will be very happy if you can use your connections to get him a job."
Something else worshipping Hextor.

Evil party get! Time to plot World war, and going up to Planar War!

[Igneel]

Well I for one must applaud your DM for thinking out of the box for the setting. I once played in a campaign very similar to this one, started out as commoners, had to train for first level in most classes, 6th and higher magic not existing, no Resurrection (but animate dead was allowed), etc except my Dm added another bit to his mostly inspired from a book series I forgot. Basically the world was so 'nuclear' from a arcane cataclysm (some epic level wizard did it) that it effected the atmosphere so that even certain melee weapons can become explosive. If you wielded a weapon that consisted mostly of metal (like a sword) then the friction against the air of it being swung would collect some residual energy and possibly cause an explosion of 10ft or more radius pending on size of weapon and its conductivity. The wielder, the target, and the weapon could effectively take damage of a random elemental energy (rolled 1d6 for fire, electricity, cold, acid, sonic, or force) to determine what type, which made it a gamble especially with acid and sonic possibly destroying our gear. We learned quickly out of character (since in character we grew up with it) to wield weapons like axes and polearms with wooden handles, or very rare crystilline weapons that took the place of metal weapons.

Anyways, onto the help...

How are invocation users (aka Warlock or Dragonfire Adept) effected by these rules. Some of the invocations both classes get are technically spells over 5th level, but even then some of their most basic class features (Eldritch Blast/Breath weapon) would still be useful. Warlocks are described as beings either born with or made a bargain with powerful beings to gain their power, so you could argue that you went and made a bargain with a demon or something. As while Dragonfire Adepts are largely fluffed to of learned their powers from dragons. Both get UMD and can easily emulate a class with Cure spells to use wands and the like.

As un-optimized as it is, I can't help but wonder how well a Healer would work in this campaign, as they are divine casters that last I checked don't especially do much worshiping. I once had a slightly homebrewed Reserve feat similar to Acidic Splatter, but required 3rd level or higher Healing spells for a ranged Healing ball that healed 1d6 per spell level of highest healing spell level. Even at the limit of 5th level spells that's 5d6, and as long as you don't use that healing spell its usable 24/7. We called it White Robed, but again, it was homebrew and not all Dm's allow that.

Mystic ranger does seem to be a good route as its best spells are 5th level, and with full bab and a seemingly larger fan-base with the ranged variant you could go into Scout for the Swift Hunter feat.

About the ToB classes, what about maneuvers like Time Stands Still (if I remember right) that duplicates in a manner of speaking Time Stop? Are they limited as well?

[eggs]

Cleric of the ideal of Killing Things In Holes And Taking Their Stuff.

[Coidzor]

Wuff. I'd seek one that wasn't in that game world and leave, to be honest, mate.

That level of insecurity is a whole lot of pathos on the plate.

[Balor01]

@Igneel
Actually, for warlock you get to roll 100 if 99 -> you are a warlock. OR if this does not happen, you may seek out a demon and gain "warlockship" that way.

As far as I know ToB is completely unlimited. (and some of the players are already rubbing their hands while having evil grins :smallbiggrin:)

[Igneel]

Hmm... In that case it seems if you want to go Arcane-blasty Warlock is the more reliable way, especially since you can just contact a demon (or according to text fey and other beings as well) and not have to rely solely on a die roll. This could also at least somewhat help with healing issues if you can find wands at least.

For melee, ToB or Mystic Ranger, but I'm sure ToB has more goodies then the Ranger could wish for.

Do you know if certain roles have been called for (or planned for) so far?

[CGforever!]

No casting higher than spell-level 5?

My mind immediately went to swiftblade, but then it usually does. Granted, you didn't even mention prestige classes, and your DM probably wouldn't be okay with it, but by golly I'd be asking.

This actually sounds like a kinda fun campaign to me. If I were you, I'd try to be a warblade or other martial adept. You'd be powerful without relying on magic for anything, which sounds like its going to be a factor for you.

[Balor01]

@Igneel
One player is thinking of seeking out Warblade or Unarmed Warblade with WoP.
One intends to go Rogue with some ToB shenannigans.
Then there is me and fourth guy. I think I may go warlock.

[Prime32]

The houserules seem pretty reasonable in intent (nerfing high tiers, removing the effects that powerful magic has on a setting), though the percentage roll to determine whether you're a sorcerer is just weird. (PCs are already supposed to be special)

How does your GM feel about adepts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm)? In particular, the Eberron variant which gains a single domain.

Wild Shape ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) is like a toned-down druid.

If you like warlocks, ever tried dragonfire adept?

If you're looking for a cleric for healing... all you really need for that is a couple of wands of lesser vigor/cure light wounds, which a rogue, warlock or DFA can use with Use Magic Device. Maybe a healing beltMIC for backup.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Obligatory Incarnum suggestion.

Besides that, it there's limited spell levels, perhaps some sort of theurge?

I would suggest cerebremancer, but then I saw the (sad) ban on psionics.

Ultimate Magus might be funinteresting in a campaign like this.

[Rubik]

Just play a commoner with Infested With Chickens, then head toward a TN cleric of a concept, who found enlightenment in his spare time when he was working on Da's farm. He figured that the gods were just petty bastards who liked playing with mortals and watching them squirm.

Then make exploding undead hen grenades with Fell Drain and Consumptive Field. Screw the gods. With chickens. The other wight meat.

[mikau013]

Honestly I can't see the limitation of no spells higher than 5th level having much of an impact when you start at lvl 0. Especially since you can still use metamagic to for example quick spells above 5th level. Especially considering how dangerous adventuring is if you're not a caster - :).

[Particle_Man]

If ToB is allowed, you might look into Crusader. They have a few "healing" stances and strikes. That said, you may be locked into "must crusade" mode, I dunno.

Also, check with the other players and see what they are playing. If, for example, you are *all* playing druids then at least you are not interfering with each other as you become ecoterrorists together. :)

Is Incarnate allowed, or Totemist?

[Rubik]

I'd say have everyone play druids. Or at least one single class (and druids are ideal). Otherwise everyone's going to be at each other's throats because if druids MUST be ecoterrorists and clerics and paladins MUST be religious terrorists and rogues MUST be kleptomaniacal PvP terrorists and monks MUST be incompetent wuxia terrorists, nobody will be able to play a different class and be able to get along.

[Coidzor]

Just play a commoner with Infested With Chickens, then head toward a TN cleric of a concept, who found enlightenment in his spare time when he was working on Da's farm. He figured that the gods were just petty bastards who liked playing with mortals and watching them squirm.

Then make exploding undead hen grenades with Fell Drain and Consumptive Field. Screw the gods. With chickens. The other wight meat.

Or Dread Necromancer and do it 3 levels later at 9th and also get infinite out of combat healing for any undead or characters with tomb-tainted soul. Or Death Master and start at 4th level rather than 6th.

[Bloodgruve]

If ToB is allowed and maneuvers are not restricted those players could be your campaigns T1 most likely. I'd run a Swordsage or a Bard here.

GL
Blood~

[Eldariel]

I'd look at tier 3 classes. Beguilers, Duskblades, Psychic Warriors (or even Psions), Bards, Warblades, Swordsages, a lot of reasonable options. Crusader probably has the Paladin-issue tho so I wouldn't go there. Bard is, as stated, probably the best all-rounder, but all of those are extremely reasonable options. Provided Wands of CLW are available, you can always just UMD Wands (or have a Bard).

[eggs]

Wizards are still going to be powerhouses compared to ToBers, et al. They still have Teleport, Dominate, Scry, Polymorph, Lesser Planar Binding, Enervation[+Metamagic], Orb of Acid[+Metamagic], Mass Debuffs[+Metamagic], Illusions, Dispels, Celerity, Abrupt Jaunt, BC like Wall of Stone/Force or Solid Fog, defenses like Greater Blink, Greater Mirror Image or even things as simple Invisibility (and there are going to be very few characters around capable of countering those defenses).

Metamagics might be something of a feat tax, but Wizards are still going to basically be the scariest things around.

Actually... now I'm thinking Shadowcraft Mage.

[Bloodgruve]

Wizards are still going to be powerhouses compared to ToBers, et al. They still have Teleport, Dominate, Scry, Polymorph, Lesser Planar Binding, Enervation[+Metamagic], Orb of Acid[+Metamagic], Mass Debuffs[+Metamagic], Illusions, Dispels, Celerity, Abrupt Jaunt, BC like Wall of Stone/Force or Solid Fog, defenses like Greater Blink, Greater Mirror Image or even things as simple Invisibility (and there are going to be very few characters around capable of countering those defenses).

Metamagics might be something of a feat tax, but Wizards are still going to basically be the scariest things around.

Actually... now I'm thinking Shadowcraft Mage.

I guess I would agree when you put it that way..

I'd still play Swordsage or Bard just for the fun of it though ;)

Blood~

[BIGMamaSloth]

I'd suggest binder here, since your DM seems so stuck to class fluff and it says right in the class fluff of binder that it's super duper easy to learn how to do! get someone to show you how do draw circles in the ground, should be easy enough to find!

[Coidzor]

I'd suggest binder here, since your DM seems so stuck to class fluff and it says right in the class fluff of binder that it's super duper easy to learn how to do! get someone to show you how do draw circles in the ground, should be easy enough to find!

Then again, if the DM has that much of a stick up its butt about fluff... the binder's basically going to get the grand old treatment of having everyone in civilized areas trying to gank him.

[Grundy]

...you can pretty much leave healing problems to the GM - he must've thought of it

This. I'd be tempted to play a bard, and take no healing spells even under duress. Of course, I'd also make him an elf, and RP him as a total hick. :smallsmile: As far as your DM being a jerk for imposing RP and other restrictions on tier 1-2 classes, I don't think so. He's just saying "don't go there, and here's a non-meta game reason why not."

[hydraa]

for alternative healer there is the miniatures handbook healer class

[Coidzor]

This. I'd be tempted to play a bard, and take no healing spells even under duress. Of course, I'd also make him an elf, and RP him as a total hick. :smallsmile: As far as your DM being a jerk for imposing RP and other restrictions on tier 1-2 classes, I don't think so. He's just saying "don't go there, and here's a non-meta game reason why not."

That alone can be fine. That and saddling everyone with a level of commoner (presumably forever) while they look for someone to train them if they ever want to take a level in any class that's not banned to them just makes him look insecure in his place as a DM or like he's out for a power trip.

[Garwain]

I wonder who you'd have to seek to become a truenamer....

[Coidzor]

I wonder who you'd have to seek to become a truenamer....

The local bedlam?

[Acanous]

I'd go Artificer, personally.
There's an item for everything, and even if you can't have spellcasting above 5th level (Like from Staves or somesuch) you can get an item that gives you the ability you're looking for anyway. With no 5+ level spells, items that require those spells are going to be ridiculously difficult to come by.

That, or play the Mailman.

[Coidzor]

I'd go Artificer, personally.
There's an item for everything, and even if you can't have spellcasting above 5th level (Like from Staves or somesuch) you can get an item that gives you the ability you're looking for anyway. With no 5+ level spells, items that require those spells are going to be ridiculously difficult to come by.

That, or play the Mailman.

I suppose one could luck out, yeah. Or go through characters like popcorn until one finally got one that was sorcerer eligible.

With how the DM sounds from the OP, it's about as likely to make him realize a flaw in his set up as it is to just have him kick the OP from the group...

[Acanous]

Frankly I don't see how either of those outcomes is undesireable.
But you CAN play a "Toned down" artificer. You don't HAVE to break the world. You can if you want, and that's usually enough.

[2xMachina]

Till lvl 11, spellcasters don't get any nerf at all. Other than fluff nerf, but with some creativity, you can play it the way you want to. Only Extreme TM. Try to make sure everyone worships the same deity. Go on some crazy Mission from God TM.

Taking the Hextor example, a Druid worshipping Hextor wants Nature to declare war on cities. A Cleric is helping him, cause War, and that progresses Hextor's cause. A Wizard of an evil Hextor empire is an agent to incite world war 1st, to weaken them for World Domination TM.

After lvl 11, take PrCs with high features sacrificing Caster lvl. Like Bone Knight, Prestige Paladin. Or heck, take a 2nd spell casting class and Dual Progress it. Heck, with only 5th lvl spells, Incantatrix is STILL gonna kick everyone's ass. Or Wizard/Warblade/Jade Phoenix Mage. Cleric/Crusader/RKV. Get everything from your spellcaster class, and ToB to shore up your gish side.

[Balor01]

Allrighty. Thanks for all the help so far :smallsmile:

We have an aspiring Unarmed Warblade with WoP, aspiring Rogue, aspiring Warlock and aspiring Artificer. Since we will be able to switch classes when we learn new ones, no problem, we will start our lessons with village blacksmith who is also a mid-lvl fighter.

I've consulted the DM and magic items will play a major role, even if this may be a bit more complicated then visiting our local "Arcane 'r' us". Magic items are made by Imperial crafters and many rogue parties - even those who supply monstrous species with some items who are of course hunted by Kingdom officials.

If we however get some "wizard tech" along the way, we then hit a paydirt. :smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

What is this WoP you speak of?

[Balor01]

Misspelled :) Its VoP.

Vow of Poverty

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Vow_of_Poverty

[charcoalninja]

I'd roll with a Bard. It lets you enjoy playing everything, the no spells over level 5 barely affects you and you are a wonderful support character with the means to really build the setting which is something I think you'll want to do since you've been GMing for so long.

Let's you take an active player role as well through being the face of the party. Since you're now a player you might as well embrace the role.

The sorcerer roll a die and you're special rule is an idiotic cart before the horse thing that a lot of DMs mistakingly do. I don't have a character existing and than need to determine if he's a special snowflake. Special snowflakes exist and I've decided to play one of them.

People do that crap all the time and its utterly moronic.

[Krotchrot]

I adopt to the ideas of either an Archivist or Artificer. Also Warforged. Imagine that the Scarecrow out in the field suddenly "woke up" and wanted to learn about the world. Or due to it's mechanical nature had a knack for creating things.

[Dragrun]

Or for trolling your DM play Commoner. Nothing says **** like a d4 of hp and a scythe for a weapon.

[Particle_Man]

Sorcerer class can not be taught. It is innate, people are born with this gift, so mechanicly, we will roll 1d100 at the start of campaign and if you roll 100 - yay, you are a Sorcerer, a rare and sought after asset of the Kingdom.

Just want to say, this takes me back to 1st ed., when something similar was in place for the "win the lottery" method of gaining psionics.

I guess one thing to ask is are you looking for a loophole to get around what your DM is trying to achieve, or are you wanting to play ball with your DM?