Balor vs tarrasque

[Harry]

Round 1: which one of these monsters wound win in a fight? Round 2: which one is a better challenge to pcs? Round 3: which one is more cool looking?

[Piggy Knowles]

1. If they were actually fighting one on one in a "fair" fight, the tarrasque. The balor has no real way of keeping the tarrasque down forever, the tarrasque's regeneration would just be too much to overcome. That said, the tarrasque has no way of keeping the balor from escaping, and the balor could always come back with someone capable of casting Wish/Miracle and spam an SoD until the tarrasque failed, escaping when necessary.

2. Balor. CL20 Blasphemy alone will wreak havoc on most parties, and that's just the beginning. The tarrasque is tough to kill, but it's fairly straightforward in what it does, and there are a ton of ways to avoid or escape the battle. The balor is much harder to fool, and its spells and summoning abilities make it a much more versatile and dangerous threat.

3. Toss-up. I'm a sucker for big oversized godzilla-style monsters like the tarrasque, but the balor has a very classic look to it that I think is very cool.

[Calintares]

The tarrasque has no ranged attacks, while a balor can fly.

[Dusk Eclipse]

A Pit Fiend on the other hand can beat the Tarrasque and keep it death thanks to it's Wish 1/year SLA :smallbiggrin:

[Johel]

It is a given that the Tarrasque, in the open, will never hurt a Balor.
The bastard can just greater teleport above and fly around safely.
The question is "can the Balor put down the Tarrasque ?"

The Tarrasque

Can deflect all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells
Has spell resistance 32
Has immunity to fire, poison, disease, energy drain, and ability damage
Has a DR 15/epic
Regenerate 40 hp per turn
Has saves : Fort +38, Ref +29, Will +20


Let's look at the Balor's options :

At will

blasphemy (DC 25) :
Useless
dominate monster (DC 27) :
Can work
IF it goes through the Spell Resistance (40% chances it does)
IF the tarrasque fails its saves (30% chances it does)
IF the Balor is close enough (75 feet)
So roughly 12% chances. Make it 9 rounds of spamming this SLA.
I guess having a rampaging monster for 20 days as your bitch is a good thing when you are the incarnation of Chaotic Evil.
But it doesn't kill the beast.
For this, you gotta have it attack something reeeeeeally out of its league.
Like the making a bee-line for that Fortress of Law and Order where the most uber paladins and priests of the continent hang around.
Alternatively, curbstomping every single villages, towns and castles on your way there should attract enough good-doers to do the trick.
greater dispel magic :
Useless
greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only) :
It keeps the Balor alive.
insanity (DC 25)
It doesn't kill the Tarrasque.
It has barely 8% chances of working.
And then only 30% to just have it do nothing but babble incoherently.
Which means you just gotta spam the thing for 42 rounds.
Once the Tarrasque is drooling and staring at the clouds, you can start terraforming around it to prepare the killing blow.
power word stun (DC 23)
Useless
telekinesis (DC 23)
Useless... unless you are very creative.
unholy aura (DC 26)
Good for the Balor but useless against the Tarrasque.

1/day
Fire storm (DC 26)
Useless (
Implosion (DC 27)
Very low chance of success :
40% to get through SR
5% to get through the Fortitude save if natural 1
Hence 2% chance per day...
What would then happens ?
I guess the huge bloody mess would regenerate quickly.
It is a way to put it down, though...

So we have a brilliant option to put it down :

Teleport in
Implosion
If failed, Dominate
Command of "Roaring Suicide Rampage"
Teleport out


So basically, Mr. Balor wakes up, say
"Hey, I got nothing to do for the next 2 months !! Let's try to kill a Tarrasque !! That's going to do wonder for my street abyss cred !!"

He find the beast and teleport in.
Then just go "Implosion !!"
Then the Tarrasque goes "Roar ?" because it failed.
... 2 months later ...
SPLORTCH !!!
"-AH !! I did it !! I'm Awesome !!"
... 60 seconds later ...
"-Roar ?"
"-Sonofa..."

Mr. Balor is pissed of.
So he just decide that if he cannot kill it, he can at least use it.
"Domination !!!" echoes repetitively through the mountains for about 1 hour.
And then a large, submissive "Roar", as if the colossal titan was purring.
News spread in the Kingdom that a monster from another age is getting on a rampage, city after city, without pausing.
As the carnage increases and refugees amount in the hundred of thousands, people start to put their act together.
Adventurers and poor unfortunate souls from all over the plane gather to stop the monster.

At this point, the Tarrasque will eventually be put down by somebody.
Either said somebody has access to wish or he doesn't.
If he does, the Balor just wait and step in a few days latter to kill the poor guy at the worst possible moment and claim the fame for itself.
If he doesn't, the Balor can choose to let the fun goes on.
Or it can act itself directly.
How ?

Balor have that great "Summon" ability.
It can help them to Summon a glabrezu.
And glabrezu can offer wish to humanoids.

------------------------------

Now, picture the scene :
A large battlefield, covered with the corpses of hundreds of fallen heroes.
On a large hill made of flesh, a lone man is there, panting.
The hill is already twitching with renewed vigor and despair can be seen on our hero's face as he understands all these sacrifices were for naught.
Then come Mr. Balor screaming "GREATER TELEPORT"
Then saying "Hi. Need a hand ?"

Our desesperate Hero, out of option anyway : "-... Sure. What do you got ?"
Mr. Balor : "-I can keep the beast down for good. You might want to keep hacking at it as we talk, by the way..."
Hero : "-Sounds... Good..." *hacking with blade at the Tarrasque* "-... and what do you ask for it ?"
Mr. Balor : "-Your eternal soul. Small price to save the lifes of millions.
And as a bonus, your name to live forever in the memories of the mortals.
They'll even build statues, name babies after you and write dramatic plays."
Hero : "-Ok."
Mr. Balor : "-Cool. I'll transfer you to the technical assistance while I fill in the paperwork. SUMMON !!!"
Glabrezu : "-Wish 101, what can I do for you"
Hero : "-Please... Make sure this Beast never comes back to life !!"
Glabrezu : "-And what do I get in exch... Oh, it's you, boss !! Ok, then..."

------------------------------

And that's how Mr. Balor got the respect of Orcus himself.
Because he wreaked havoc into the Prime for WEEKS and killed THOUSANDS of peoples without much more that an hour of his time.
And on top of this, he even got to claim the soul of a very chivalrous hero in the process.
The poor lad probably still suffer to this day in the deepest layer of the Abyss...

Next week, we will tell you the tale of how this same Balor unleashed the dreadful SWARM OF NINJA HOUSECATS on the peaceful Shire.
To this day, it is a custom in the Shire to nail cats to your door as a sign of piety.

[Piggy Knowles]

So we have a brilliant option to put it down :

Teleport in
Implosion
If failed, Dominate
Command of "Roaring Suicide Rampage"
Teleport out



I would say it's more like...


Teleport in and fly outside of the tarrasque's range
Summon a second balor
Spam two Dominate Monsters per round, remaining outside of the tarrasque's range (got to love a 90' fly speed with good maneuverability)
Approximately 24 seconds later, begin carnage as balors enjoy their dominated tarrasque

[Red_Dog]

I would say it's more like...

Teleport in and fly outside of the tarrasque's range
Summon a second balor
Spam two Dominate Monsters per round, remaining outside of the tarrasque's range (got to love a 90' fly speed with good maneuverability)
Approximately 24 seconds later, begin carnage as balors enjoy their dominated tarrasque

I think you are missing a part in which the balor who didn't get to dominate Tarrasque starts to duke it out with a Balor who got lucky. Why? cause why not they are Balors after all.

[MammonAzrael]

Awesome scenario

I approve. :smallbiggrin:

And while I'll nitpick that devils steal souls, not demons, this is entertaining enough to deserve white-text nitpicking.

[Sudain]

It is a given that the Tarrasque, in the open, will never hurt a Balor.
The bastard can just greater teleport above and fly around safely.
The question is "can the Balor put down the Tarrasque ?"

The Tarrasque

Can deflect all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells
Has spell resistance 32
Has immunity to fire, poison, disease, energy drain, and ability damage
Has a DR 15/epic
Regenerate 40 hp per turn
Has saves : Fort +38, Ref +29, Will +20


Let's look at the Balor's options :

At will

blasphemy (DC 25) :
Useless
dominate monster (DC 27) :
Can work
IF it goes through the Spell Resistance (40% chances it does)
IF the tarrasque fails its saves (30% chances it does)
IF the Balor is close enough (75 feet)
So roughly 12% chances. Make it 9 rounds of spamming this SLA.
I guess having a rampaging monster for 20 days as your bitch is a good thing when you are the incarnation of Chaotic Evil.
But it doesn't kill the beast.
For this, you gotta have it attack something reeeeeeally out of its league.
Like the making a bee-line for that Fortress of Law and Order where the most uber paladins and priests of the continent hang around.
Alternatively, curbstomping every single villages, towns and castles on your way there should attract enough good-doers to do the trick.
greater dispel magic :
Useless
greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only) :
It keeps the Balor alive.
insanity (DC 25)
It doesn't kill the Tarrasque.
It has barely 8% chances of working.
And then only 30% to just have it do nothing but babble incoherently.
Which means you just gotta spam the thing for 42 rounds.
Once the Tarrasque is drooling and staring at the clouds, you can start terraforming around it to prepare the killing blow.
power word stun (DC 23)
Useless
telekinesis (DC 23)
Useless... unless you are very creative.
unholy aura (DC 26)
Good for the Balor but useless against the Tarrasque.

1/day
Fire storm (DC 26)
Useless (
Implosion (DC 27)
Very low chance of success :
40% to get through SR
5% to get through the Fortitude save if natural 1
Hence 2% chance per day...
What would then happens ?
I guess the huge bloody mess would regenerate quickly.
It is a way to put it down, though...

So we have a brilliant option to put it down :

Teleport in
Implosion
If failed, Dominate
Command of "Roaring Suicide Rampage"
Teleport out


So basically, Mr. Balor wakes up, say
"Hey, I got nothing to do for the next 2 months !! Let's try to kill a Tarrasque !! That's going to do wonder for my street abyss cred !!"

He find the beast and teleport in.
Then just go "Implosion !!"
Then the Tarrasque goes "Roar ?" because it failed.
... 2 months later ...
SPLORTCH !!!
"-AH !! I did it !! I'm Awesome !!"
... 60 seconds later ...
"-Roar ?"
"-Sonofa..."

Mr. Balor is pissed of.
So he just decide that if he cannot kill it, he can at least use it.
"Domination !!!" echoes repetitively through the mountains for about 1 hour.
And then a large, submissive "Roar", as if the colossal titan was purring.
News spread in the Kingdom that a monster from another age is getting on a rampage, city after city, without pausing.
As the carnage increases and refugees amount in the hundred of thousands, people start to put their act together.
Adventurers and poor unfortunate souls from all over the plane gather to stop the monster.

At this point, the Tarrasque will eventually be put down by somebody.
Either said somebody has access to wish or he doesn't.
If he does, the Balor just wait and step in a few days latter to kill the poor guy at the worst possible moment and claim the fame for itself.
If he doesn't, the Balor can choose to let the fun goes on.
Or it can act itself directly.
How ?

Balor have that great "Summon" ability.
It can help them to Summon a glabrezu.
And glabrezu can offer wish to humanoids.

------------------------------

Now, picture the scene :
A large battlefield, covered with the corpses of hundreds of fallen heroes.
On a large hill made of flesh, a lone man is there, panting.
The hill is already twitching with renewed vigor and despair can be seen on our hero's face as he understands all these sacrifices were for naught.
Then come Mr. Balor screaming "GREATER TELEPORT"
Then saying "Hi. Need a hand ?"

Our desesperate Hero, out of option anyway : "-... Sure. What do you got ?"
Mr. Balor : "-I can keep the beast down for good. You might want to keep hacking at it as we talk, by the way..."
Hero : "-Sounds... Good..." *hacking with blade at the Tarrasque* "-... and what do you ask for it ?"
Mr. Balor : "-Your eternal soul. Small price to save the lifes of millions.
And as a bonus, your name to live forever in the memories of the mortals.
They'll even build statues, name babies after you and write dramatic plays."
Hero : "-Ok."
Mr. Balor : "-Cool. I'll transfer you to the technical assistance while I fill in the paperwork. SUMMON !!!"
Glabrezu : "-Wish 101, what can I do for you"
Hero : "-Please... Make sure this Beast never comes back to life !!"
Glabrezu : "-And what do I get in exch... Oh, it's you, boss !! Ok, then..."

------------------------------

And that's how Mr. Balor got the respect of Orcus himself.
Because he wreaked havoc into the Prime for WEEKS and killed THOUSANDS of peoples without much more that an hour of his time.
And on top of this, he even got to claim the soul of a very chivalrous hero in the process.
The poor lad probably still suffer to this day in the deepest layer of the Abyss...

Next week, we will tell you the tale of how this same Balor unleashed the dreadful SWARM OF NINJA HOUSECATS on the peaceful Shire.
To this day, it is a custom in the Shire to nail cats to your door as a sign of piety.



My evilness my friend. I have much to learn! That is awesome! I'm seriously thinking making a campaign around this exact idea.

[Stubbed Tongue]

The Tarrasque can reach about 135' in the air with an average jump roll. So most spells with the close range will be within his grasp and I'm pretty sure his grapple check will keep a Balor from leaving...

[MammonAzrael]

The Tarrasque can reach about 135' in the air with an average jump roll. So most spells with the close range will be within his grasp and I'm pretty sure his grapple check will keep a Balor from leaving...

Greater teleport.

[Stubbed Tongue]

Greater teleport.Concentration check at a huge negative. SLAs require concentration checks during a grapple and a critter who can power attack for 48 is going to make your concentration check near impossible to pass.

[demigodus]

The Tarrasque can reach about 135' in the air with an average jump roll. So most spells with the close range will be within his grasp and I'm pretty sure his grapple check will keep a Balor from leaving...

greater teleport to escape grapple. Of course, dominate monster being a full round action means the balor can only cast it whenever the Tarrasque messes up its grapple.

Also, close range is 25'+5'/2 levels, so 75'. Tarrasque is 50' tall, so our balor would need to be at most 125' in the air, so 3' below the Tarrasque's vertical reach. In other words, the Tarrasque doesn't need to make a jump check to reach the balor.

Now, the Tarrasque has a 5% chance to miss its melee touch attack, and a 5% chance to fail its grapple check. Which comes out to 9.75% chance to fail to grapple.

Balor has a 45% chance to succeed against SR (rather then the 40% Johel gave), and 30% chance to succeed.

Over all, every turn, that gives a 1.32% chance for the Balor to succeed in dominating the Tarrasque, if that is the Tarrasque's strategy. In other word, on average it would take the balor 76 rounds, or 7.6 minutes of work to dominate the Tarrasque. Assuming it decides that using its massive int score to actually come up with a tactic, is a waste of time.

[Stubbed Tongue]

greater teleport to escape grapple. Of course, dominate monster being a full round action means the balor can only cast it whenever the Tarrasque messes up its grapple.

Also, close range is 25'+5'/2 levels, so 75'. Tarrasque is 50' tall, so our balor would need to be at most 125' in the air, so 3' below the Tarrasque's vertical reach. In other words, the Tarrasque doesn't need to make a jump check to reach the balor.

Now, the Tarrasque has a 5% chance to miss its melee touch attack, and a 5% chance to fail its grapple check. Which comes out to 9.75% chance to fail to grapple.

Balor has a 45% chance to succeed against SR (rather then the 40% Johel gave), and 30% chance to succeed.

Over all, every turn, that gives a 1.32% chance for the Balor to succeed in dominating the Tarrasque, if that is the Tarrasque's strategy. In other word, on average it would take the balor 76 rounds, or 7.6 minutes of work to dominate the Tarrasque. Assuming it decides that using its massive int score to actually come up with a tactic, is a waste of time.

Nice math, thanks.

I'm currently looking to see if Power Attack can be used during a grapple. As a DM I would allow it, but hey...

[demigodus]

Concentration check at a huge negative. SLAs require concentration checks during a grapple and a critter who can power attack for 48 is going to make your concentration check near impossible to pass.

very well, Insanity until it succeeds (medium range, so safe). If it gives any effect other then making the tarrasque babble incoherently, then dispel it. repeat until tarrasque babbles incoherently (45% to pass spell resist * 20% to fail save * 30% for effect you want = 1/37 chance of effect you want).

Once it is doing so, spend your move action that round to get close. Then you have 19 rounds to cast dominate monster (~1/7.4 chance of success per use), and move to medium range on round 20. Rinse and repeat.

There is around a 6% chance that the first time you get the tarrasque to start mumbling, you will fail to dominate it. The chance of failing on the second opportunity as well as the first, is 0.4%. That means, that, on average, it should take the balor ~8 minutes to dominate the tarrasque from complete safety using a tactic that it can come up with with ease.

[Eldariel]

Concentration check at a huge negative. SLAs require concentration checks during a grapple and a critter who can power attack for 48 is going to make your concentration check near impossible to pass.

Huh; if Big T moves and Grapples, it won't have a readied action. As such, the only Concentration-check necessary is the DC 20+Spell Level to cast in Grapple, and with Balor's +33 Concentration that's an autosuccess. Bottomline is that unless Big T wins initiative and oneshots the Balor that happens to be within its charge range (with Rush that's quite a long way, but we have to account for the Balor being vertically in range too, and that the Balor's Spot is much better, not to mention they're way more intelligent and probably the active party in this encounter and thus he'll probably get a surprise round), Balor can Teleport out of Big T's reach provided they aren't fighting in a cave (in which case Balor can teleport out and wait for Big T to come out).

Also note Balor's Telekinesis; throwing large weapons with it can be quite effective (tho Balor's DR/Epic mitigates that quite a bit). Balor's mobility and senses eclipse all of Big T's abilities comprehensively. It's not a fight. Big T is incapable of threatening Balor outside extremely contrived circumstances that won't happen unless a high-level spellcaster is involved on Big T's side, or the Balor does something unspeakably stupid (like walks into a Dead Magic Zone looking for Tarrasque).

[Stubbed Tongue]

Huh; if Big T moves and Grapples, it won't have a readied action.

Why would it need a readied action? The Big T bites and starts a grapple free(takes no actions) with improved grab and then pins with subsequent grapple checks to cause continuous damage to the Balor making his concentration check almost impossible to make.

[Eldariel]

Why would it need a readied action? The Big T bites and starts a grapple free(takes no actions) with improved grab and then pins with subsequent grapple checks to cause continuous damage to the Balor making his concentration check almost impossible to make.

Move: Move Action to get to the Balor.
Standard Action: Bite, start Grapple with Free Action.

There are no subsequent grapple checks. When you do a standard action attack, you have no other attacks that round. And even if there were, you need Standard Action to ready an action to disrupt spellcasting. Grapple does not count as continuous damage.

Continuous damage is some DoT effect that delivers its damage over time. Grapple-checks are, basically, attacks. Being attacked multiple times doesn't exactly constitute the Continuous Damage-clause either.

[SSGoW]

It is a given that the Tarrasque, in the open, will never hurt a Balor.
The bastard can just greater teleport above and fly around safely.
The question is "can the Balor put down the Tarrasque ?"

The Tarrasque

Can deflect all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells
Has spell resistance 32
Has immunity to fire, poison, disease, energy drain, and ability damage
Has a DR 15/epic
Regenerate 40 hp per turn
Has saves : Fort +38, Ref +29, Will +20


Let's look at the Balor's options :

At will

blasphemy (DC 25) :
Useless
dominate monster (DC 27) :
Can work
IF it goes through the Spell Resistance (40% chances it does)
IF the tarrasque fails its saves (30% chances it does)
IF the Balor is close enough (75 feet)
So roughly 12% chances. Make it 9 rounds of spamming this SLA.
I guess having a rampaging monster for 20 days as your bitch is a good thing when you are the incarnation of Chaotic Evil.
But it doesn't kill the beast.
For this, you gotta have it attack something reeeeeeally out of its league.
Like the making a bee-line for that Fortress of Law and Order where the most uber paladins and priests of the continent hang around.
Alternatively, curbstomping every single villages, towns and castles on your way there should attract enough good-doers to do the trick.
greater dispel magic :
Useless
greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only) :
It keeps the Balor alive.
insanity (DC 25)
It doesn't kill the Tarrasque.
It has barely 8% chances of working.
And then only 30% to just have it do nothing but babble incoherently.
Which means you just gotta spam the thing for 42 rounds.
Once the Tarrasque is drooling and staring at the clouds, you can start terraforming around it to prepare the killing blow.
power word stun (DC 23)
Useless
telekinesis (DC 23)
Useless... unless you are very creative.
unholy aura (DC 26)
Good for the Balor but useless against the Tarrasque.

1/day
Fire storm (DC 26)
Useless (
Implosion (DC 27)
Very low chance of success :
40% to get through SR
5% to get through the Fortitude save if natural 1
Hence 2% chance per day...
What would then happens ?
I guess the huge bloody mess would regenerate quickly.
It is a way to put it down, though...

So we have a brilliant option to put it down :

Teleport in
Implosion
If failed, Dominate
Command of "Roaring Suicide Rampage"
Teleport out


So basically, Mr. Balor wakes up, say
"Hey, I got nothing to do for the next 2 months !! Let's try to kill a Tarrasque !! That's going to do wonder for my street abyss cred !!"

He find the beast and teleport in.
Then just go "Implosion !!"
Then the Tarrasque goes "Roar ?" because it failed.
... 2 months later ...
SPLORTCH !!!
"-AH !! I did it !! I'm Awesome !!"
... 60 seconds later ...
"-Roar ?"
"-Sonofa..."

Mr. Balor is pissed of.
So he just decide that if he cannot kill it, he can at least use it.
"Domination !!!" echoes repetitively through the mountains for about 1 hour.
And then a large, submissive "Roar", as if the colossal titan was purring.
News spread in the Kingdom that a monster from another age is getting on a rampage, city after city, without pausing.
As the carnage increases and refugees amount in the hundred of thousands, people start to put their act together.
Adventurers and poor unfortunate souls from all over the plane gather to stop the monster.

At this point, the Tarrasque will eventually be put down by somebody.
Either said somebody has access to wish or he doesn't.
If he does, the Balor just wait and step in a few days latter to kill the poor guy at the worst possible moment and claim the fame for itself.
If he doesn't, the Balor can choose to let the fun goes on.
Or it can act itself directly.
How ?

Balor have that great "Summon" ability.
It can help them to Summon a glabrezu.
And glabrezu can offer wish to humanoids.

------------------------------

Now, picture the scene :
A large battlefield, covered with the corpses of hundreds of fallen heroes.
On a large hill made of flesh, a lone man is there, panting.
The hill is already twitching with renewed vigor and despair can be seen on our hero's face as he understands all these sacrifices were for naught.
Then come Mr. Balor screaming "GREATER TELEPORT"
Then saying "Hi. Need a hand ?"

Our desesperate Hero, out of option anyway : "-... Sure. What do you got ?"
Mr. Balor : "-I can keep the beast down for good. You might want to keep hacking at it as we talk, by the way..."
Hero : "-Sounds... Good..." *hacking with blade at the Tarrasque* "-... and what do you ask for it ?"
Mr. Balor : "-Your eternal soul. Small price to save the lifes of millions.
And as a bonus, your name to live forever in the memories of the mortals.
They'll even build statues, name babies after you and write dramatic plays."
Hero : "-Ok."
Mr. Balor : "-Cool. I'll transfer you to the technical assistance while I fill in the paperwork. SUMMON !!!"
Glabrezu : "-Wish 101, what can I do for you"
Hero : "-Please... Make sure this Beast never comes back to life !!"
Glabrezu : "-And what do I get in exch... Oh, it's you, boss !! Ok, then..."

------------------------------

And that's how Mr. Balor got the respect of Orcus himself.
Because he wreaked havoc into the Prime for WEEKS and killed THOUSANDS of peoples without much more that an hour of his time.
And on top of this, he even got to claim the soul of a very chivalrous hero in the process.
The poor lad probably still suffer to this day in the deepest layer of the Abyss...

Next week, we will tell you the tale of how this same Balor unleashed the dreadful SWARM OF NINJA HOUSECATS on the peaceful Shire.
To this day, it is a custom in the Shire to nail cats to your door as a sign of piety.

Epic

I... Wow... That would make a great start to a campaign O_O

[Stubbed Tongue]

Move: Move Action to get to the Balor.
Standard Action: Bite, start Grapple with Free Action.

There are no subsequent grapple checks. When you do a standard action attack, you have no other attacks that round. And even if there were, you need Standard Action to ready an action to disrupt spellcasting. Grapple does not count as continuous damage.

Continuous damage is some DoT effect that delivers its damage over time. Grapple-checks are, basically, attacks. Being attacked multiple times doesn't exactly constitute the Continuous Damage-clause either.

So it would work if the T didn't need to move or won initiative for the next round. And grapple damage during a pin is treated as continuous(not willing to scour the net to prove it) I believe.

[Yuki Akuma]

So it would work if the T didn't need to move or won initiative for the next round. And grapple damage is treated as continuous(not willing to scour the net to prove it) I believe.

I beg your pardon?

[Eldariel]

So it would work if the T didn't need to move or won initiative for the next round. And grapple damage is treated as continuous(not willing to scour the net to prove it) I believe.

Grapple-damage cannot be treated as continuous since it's delivered through specific checks that are akin to attack rolls that need to be repeated every round and can fail. There would be no "20+Spell Level" Concentration check for grapple if grapple damage was the thing generating the AoOs after all.

You also don't roll initiative separately for every round; the initiative rolled on the first round of combat and then you keep that unless you take an initiative-modifying action (Delay, Ready or some specific spells or abilities). As such the only way that could happen is if Big T won initiative and initiative was rolled when Big T was already adjacent to the Balor...somehow. I guess Big T can use its massive Hide and Hide in Plain Sight to sneak up?

[Stubbed Tongue]

I beg your pardon?My gaming group rolls initiative every round as per the DMG. It keeps this kind of 'auto escape a grapple of huge strength critter bull****' from affecting the game too much. You game differently I see.



Grapple-damage cannot be treated as continuous since it's delivered through specific checks that are akin to attack rolls that need to be repeated every round and can fail. There would be no "20+Spell Level" Concentration check for grapple if grapple damage was the thing generating the AoOs after all.

You also don't roll initiative separately for every roundInit...see above.

Care to cite some rule pages for the continuous damage debate on grapple?

[Yuki Akuma]

Yes, I actually game by the actual rules that don't completely destroy any tactical element of the game. :smallconfused:

(Also, a Balor's Strength is only 10 lower than the Tarrasque's. The Tarrasque isn't that strong compared to the most powerful non-unique demon in the setting.)

[Stubbed Tongue]

Yes, I actually game by the actual rules that don't completely destroy any tactical element of the game. :smallconfused:


So the DMG isn't the rules?

[Eldariel]

My gaming group rolls initiative every round as per the DMG. It keeps this kind of 'auto escape a grapple of huge strength critter bull****' from affecting the game too much. You game differently I see.

...sir, even then it would be highly unlikely given how much better Balor's Initiative is than Big T's. It would not keep "this kind of autoescape grapple"-bull**** back in any but some extreme cases. Spell-Like Ability Greater Teleport (or Quickened teleportation spells or any such) is kinda direct counter to any manner of grapple nonsense or other low-tier strategies.

DMG does not say reroll initiative every round. That's a houserule you've made. Hell, the Core rules fly directly against it; initiative modifying actions like Delay and Ready would plain straight not work if you rolled initiative every round. You roll initiative once, in the beginning of combat. As per Initiative (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm) in the PHB or SRD.

EDIT: Relevant passage:
"At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll. Characters act in order, counting down from highest result to lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions)."


Init...see above.

Care to cite some rule pages for the continuous damage debate on grapple?

Do I have to? Is it not obvious by just thinking over it for a moment? Grapple-damage is not automatic. You doing grapple-damage for one round does not mean you do it the next round. You do grapple-damage the same way you do attack damage: On your own action, you take an action that allows you to make an attack (in this case opposed Grapple-check) and if you succeed you deal damage.

Then you have to do this next round again. By the very nature of the check having to be repeated every round, it can't exactly be continuous. Like, it's just as continuous as attacks; if Grapple dealt continuous damage, so would simply e.g. Magic Missiling or attacking someone every round. If Grapple is considered continuous damage, literally every single form of damage in the game is continuous by the same logic. Ergo, we can conclude that Grapple-damage is not continuous.

[Stubbed Tongue]

DMG does not say reroll initiative every round.

DMG page 22.

As for the rest it comes down to DM style. As for the mechanics of grapple I agree with you, but as someone who has choked out an opponent I can assure it is continuous.

[Eldariel]

DMG page 22.

It's a big, massive block of text "Variant". Variant rules are not default rules.

[Yuki Akuma]

So the DMG isn't the rules?

The DMG isn't the primary source for combat rules. The PHB is.

What the PHB says supersedes any variants the DMG presents.

This is not a complicated idea.

When we talk about D&D on these forums we tend to go by the default rules entirely so we can prevent misunderstandings like this.

Also that's a terrible variant rule that was given no thought and you shouldn't use it. Seriously. The entire system is built on the idea that combat goes in a specific order that doesn't change much.

[Stubbed Tongue]

It's a big, massive block of text "Variant". Variant rules are not default rules.

I never said it was a default rule. You assumed that's what I meant.

But yes, initiative every round IS in the DMG just like I said.

[Stubbed Tongue]

The DMG isn't the primary source for combat rules. The PHB is.

What the PHB says supersedes any variants the DMG presents.

This is not a complicated idea.
The DM IS the rules. Page 4 of the DMG I.E. "The DM defines the game".

Initiative is not complicated. True, that's why my gaming group chooses to use the variant. We like the challenge.

Play however you like.

[Eldariel]

I never said it was a default rule. You assumed that's what I meant.

But yes, initiative every round IS in the DMG just like I said.

Why are you bringing variant rules to this discussion though? How are they relevant?

[Stubbed Tongue]

{{scrubbed}}

[Eldariel]

Have you ever noticed the prevailing idea that wizards(most casters really) totally trump fighters? Ok, well my gaming group has seen every flavor of this and have taken steps to change the game to make fighters more playable. We use house rules. House rules I haven't mentioned mind you. We also use variants. There is nothing wrong with variants. You don't like them, don't use them. I don't care because I've been on enough forums to know when I can't sway a person's opinion on a subject.

The reason I asked the question: The case we're talking about isn't being played in your playgroup, is it? Therefore, would it not be more logical to assume that we use the default rules rather than houserules or variants?

Even more so, since we're talking about the scenario in a vacuum outside a playgroup about a fight between two creatures, would it not be most logical to disregard all variant rules and houserules altogether and handle the question by the default rules as written since the OP did not specify any deviations from the default rules?


I have nothing against houserules. We use a ton in all the playgroups I play in. I just don't really see a place to bring them up in discussions like this since while my group might play with those exact rules, I'm almost 100% sure nobody else does and thus whatever answer those rules lead to is not really useful nor relevant to the person asking the question.

EDIT: Basically, my point is that as soon as we bring variant rules into play, we're no longer answering the OP's question and as such, that kinda defeats the purpose of this discussion.

[Stubbed Tongue]

Well aside from the initiative every round all my responses are supported by the rules in the PHB. The damage during a pin being the only possible exception and until I see page number citing rule books I will assume I am right.

In response to your EDIT: I see your point. I'd like to think I don't need to dumb it down when I post on here and mostly think others have read the books(the three core) and have a grasp of the game near my own. Sometimes that is not the case.

[Siosilvar]

Not trying to be rude but neither of us cares how the other games.

And neither of you knows what houserules or variants the other uses. Houserules and variants have absolutely no place in this discussion unless they're outright stated. Every group's houserules are different, and there's no way to tell what anyone is using unless you tell us. It's much more reasonable to simply discuss RAW than to try to take into account every possible house rule or variant rule.

[Yuki Akuma]

In response to your EDIT: I see your point. I'd like to think I don't need to dumb it down when I post on here and mostly think others have read the books(the three core) and have a grasp of the game near my own. Sometimes that is not the case.

Now you're just being rude.

[Stubbed Tongue]

{{scrubbed}}

[Coidzor]

I believe it has already been shown that the Balor has the ability to render the Tarrasque incapable of attacking it from outside of the Tarrasque's reach, so initiative for the Tarrasque is at this point largely irrelevant unless someone wants to present a scenario in which the Tarrasque's initiative would be relevant.

[Marnath]

I believe it has already been shown that the Balor has the ability to render the Tarrasque incapable of attacking it from outside of the Tarrasque's reach, so initiative for the Tarrasque is at this point largely irrelevant unless someone wants to present a scenario in which the Tarrasque's initiative would be relevant.

Well, I guess if the Balor was on the ground at the edge of medium range Big T could theoretically pop Rush(ex) and charge him, right?

[Eldariel]

Well, I guess if the Balor was on the ground at the edge of medium range Big T could theoretically pop Rush(ex) and charge him, right?

Yeah; basically Big T needs to:
- Not get surprised (Balor has a rather massive advantage in both, Spot and visibility, not to mention intelligence and mobility)
- Win Initiative (Balor's +11 is at a rather significant advantage against Tarrasque's +7, mind)
- Have Balor in a reachable location (that is, within 300' near enough to land for Tarrasque to reach him; Rush Charge and attack)
- Either one-shot the Balor (extremely unlikely; even PA for 48 critical Bite only deals a maximum of 291 damage, 276 after DR which is insufficient to kill the Balor) OR somehow disable the Balor in such a way that it cannot Greater Teleport outside Big T's reach on its turn (impossible far as I know)

Once Balor gets out of range, natural 1s and infinite uses of Dominate Monster pretty much means it's all over.


As such, I'd say Tarrasque's chances of victory approach zero percents in this encounter. If they aren't absolutely zero (there are some circumstances where it might have a chance), they are quite close to it and as such we can decree this an extremely likely win for the Balor. Balor's ability set is just vastly more versatile than Tarrasque's and versatility tends to count for much, much more than raw power.

[Marnath]

Yeah; basically Big T needs to:
- Not get surprised (Balor has a rather massive advantage in both, Spot and visibility, not to mention intelligence and mobility)
- Win Initiative (Balor's +11 is at a rather significant advantage against Tarrasque's +7, mind)
- Have Balor in a reachable location (that is, within 300' near enough to land for Tarrasque to reach him; Rush Charge and attack)
- Either one-shot the Balor (extremely unlikely; even PA for 48 critical Bite only deals a maximum of 291 damage, 276 after DR which is insufficient to kill the Balor) OR somehow disable the Balor in such a way that it cannot Greater Teleport outside Big T's reach on its turn (impossible far as I know)

Once Balor gets out of range, natural 1s and infinite uses of Dominate Monster pretty much means it's all over.


As such, I'd say Tarrasque's chances of victory approach zero percents in this encounter. If they aren't absolutely zero (there are some circumstances where it might have a chance), they are quite close to it and as such we can decree this an extremely likely win for the Balor. Balor's ability set is just vastly more versatile than Tarrasque's and versatility tends to count for much, much more than raw power.

Improved grab and then swallow whole.

[Eldariel]

Improved grab and then swallow whole.

Again, too many actions to take after movement; at the end of a charge or after move action, which Big T would more than likely need to reach the Balor on the first round of the encounter, you can have exactly one attack which, provided it hits, can be used to trigger Improved Grab yes, but after that you have no attacks left, so you can take no actions after the grapple is initiated. Actually, even worse than that; to use Swallow Whole you have to begin your turn with the target held in your mouth. As such, there's no way to do it in one turn. Also, being Swallowed only means you're considered Grappled; no problem for a Balor's SLAs.

Though then you are taking Damage Over Time but 2d8+8 + 2d6+6 is average 30 damage and the physical is like to be mitigated by DR anyways; even 30 damage would only provoke a DC 25 check though, which is an autosuccess.

[Dr.Epic]

1. Tarrasque if the balor didn't have time to prepare
2. Depends on the way the monster is put forth to the players
3. balor

[Tvtyrant]

Also that's a terrible variant rule that was given no thought and you shouldn't use it. Seriously. The entire system is built on the idea that combat goes in a specific order that doesn't change much.

1. It is how AD&D worked, and it ran fine.
2. The specific order rules helps casters, the changing order helps none-casters. I know which one I prefer.

[Coidzor]

Eh? How does being inside the Tarrasque prevent the Balor from using Greater Teleport?


Is it possible to do enough damage with heavy falling objects to drop the Tarrasque into negatives? I imagine Balors have the wherewithal to acquire such things and bags of holding to use in order to teleport with the heavy things.

I'm certain it has the ability to acquire digging monsters to use to make the trap in the first place to get the pit trap for the Tarrasque for the drowning maneuver...

[Eldariel]

Is it possible to do enough damage with heavy falling objects to drop the Tarrasque into negatives? I imagine Balors have the wherewithal to acquire such things and bags of holding to use in order to teleport with the heavy things.

I'm certain it has the ability to acquire digging monsters to use to make the trap in the first place to get the pit trap for the Tarrasque for the drowning maneuver...

Why is everyone making this so complicated?

Step 1: Dominate until success. Repeat as necessary as many times as necessary.
Step 2: Implosion until success. You have infinite days; no rush.
Step 3: Slash to keep as far into negatives as desired.
Step 4: If necessary, Teleport-find any superweak mortal (Commoner 1 preferable), Dominate, Summon Glabrezu, have the mortal wish Big T dead.

[Runestar]

Hero : "-Please... Make sure this Beast never comes back to life !!"

Now this is just begging to be twisted...:smallamused:

Too bad an undead tarrasque loses its regeneration.:smallannoyed:

[Zale]

Admit you didn't even know there was a variant initiative rule. Because you certainly came off that way. By that logic I do know more than you about the subject. Not rude. Fact.

And it was you talking down to me with little gems like "This is not a complicated idea" and my favorite..."Yes, I actually game by the actual rules that don't completely destroy any tactical element of the game."

So you see it was you being rude.

No, actually, you implied that anyone who doesn't have total recall of all the fiddly little variant rules for D&D is somehow less intelligent than you.

That is an insult.

Insults are rude. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CaptainObvious)

Now on the actual subject of the thread, It looks like a Balor would win eventually. So long as he didn't have some kind of deadline, then he could just chill and use those fancy spell-like abilities.

Now I'm imagining a battle between two dominated Tarrasques.. If only there were more than one.

[Stubbed Tongue]

{{scrubbed}}

[SSGoW]

Now on the actual subject of the thread, It looks like a Balor would win eventually. So long as he didn't have some kind of deadline, then he could just chill and use those fancy spell-like abilities.

Now I'm imagining a battle between two dominated Tarrasques.. If only there were more than one.

A guy was saying the best way to have Pokemon in the 3.P game is to play the Summoner class from Pathfinder.

He was wrong...

Completely wrong... :smalleek:

[demigodus]

Step 1: Dominate until success. Repeat as necessary as many times as necessary.

As was pointed out, Dominate has short range, so you have to do it within a range that big T can reach with its jump. Mix in Insanity + Dispel Magic as needed, and you are good to go though.

[Eldariel]

As was pointed out, Dominate has short range, so you have to do it within a range that big T can reach with its jump. Mix in Insanity + Dispel Magic as needed, and you are good to go though.

Oh yeah, I somehow thought Balors had Flyby Attack. Well, I guess they get to waste even more time here; joy.

[absolmorph]

... Why doesn't the balor just dominate a bunch of ghouls, and just have 400+ ghouls ambush the tarrasque, and keep whacking at it until he gets a successful domination? Or use some other method of paralyzing the tarrasque with expendable creatures?

[demigodus]

Oh yeah, I somehow thought Balors had Flyby Attack. Well, I guess they get to waste even more time here; joy.

~10 minutes if it is having horrible luck. That really isn't all that much.

If you really want I can write up a program and run a bunch of simulations to make a distribution. But 1/37 chance to make it safe to dominate for 19 rounds, with 1 round for gtfo'ing if dominations fail, 1/9.4 chance to succeed per domination, over all sound like pretty good odds to me when your opponent can't do more then growl at you.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Locked for review.