[Exalted] Charm Request Thread

[Revlid]

As the title says, this is a thread for requesting Charms. Which I will then write. Nothing massive; I'll not be writing the whole Malfeas tree leading up to Brass City Shintai. Otherwise, request away!

[Xefas]

I'll not be writing the whole Malfeas tree leading up to Brass City Shintai.

But that's what I always request. :smallfrown:

Well, standard fallback procedure. More Infernal Monster. ~50 charms isn't enough. Maybe some charms dealing with the Unwoven Coadjutor or Past Life backgrounds? Those seem to be unique facets of the Green Sun Princes that aren't messed with very often, and I kinda like the idea of an Infernal gone mad with Solar memories.

Maybe that would fit more as a string of Heretical charms? Some of the titans remember a former self that was entirely alien and incompatible with their current form. While they cannot draw upon the power of their former self, they can allow their madness and frustration to shape them, and form new charms of their own from those mental scars. (At least, I think that's how something like Adorjan creating Fond Remembrance of Adrian would work.)

Perhaps the Green Sun Princes, who also have past, disjointed, alien lives, could do something similar.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Perhaps more devour-it's charms for the Raksha ? They seem to lack ability to eat each other's soul-equivalent. :smallwink:

[KaganMonk]

Since you've done them for almost everyone else, Alchemical Overdrives. I think I even saw that they have charm references in the errata, but no actual Overdrive Charms.

[Terazul]

Hegra Charms! I'm loving this little pile over here from TDO, but could always use more. And more of your Szoreny would be cool too. Basically more Infernal stuff is always nice.

[Revlid]

For Xefas:

ENSHRINING EVERY ECHO
Cost: — (1wp, 3xp); Mins: Essence 2; Type: Permanent
Keywords: Heretical
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Golden Years Tarnished Black, Fond Remembrance of Adrián
Ordinarily, an Infernal's Past Life rating is set at character creation; the Unwoven Coadjutor can be stirred into wakefulness through meditation and resonant activities, but one cannot increase the age or experience of a Solar millenia-dead. At least, not without cheating. An Infernal with this Charm can permanently increase her Past Life rating by reflexively spending a point of Willpower and three experience points per dot; in doing so, she picks through the scraps of memory belonging to the Solars that came before her own predecessor, stitching together unconnected memories and visions into a patchwork monster preincarnation. This Past Life functions as normal, with a personality, memories, Motivation and intimacies formed as an amalgam of multiple previous lives. It is ignorant of its own artificiality, though if it is somehow confronted with evidence of its coagulated origins, it will react as appropriate to its personality.

In addition, the Infernal gains greater control over the degree to which her Past Life manifests itself. Whenever she sleeps, she may forfeit her roll to regain Willpower, and instead acquire exact copies of any number of her Past Life's intimacies. These intimacies count toward her normal maximum, and can be eroded, shifted or lost as normal; however, the Infernal reduces the amount of time her Past Life gains control over her by a number of hours equal to the number of duplicate intimacies she maintains. She may also use this integration to acquire more in-depth training from her Past Life, as she is treated as having a Mentor rating equal to the number of duplicate intimacies she maintains, allowing her to learn from her previous incarnation(s).

As a final benefit, any social attack enhanced by Past Life that the Infernal makes against a character who knew her previous incarnation converts all dice granted by Past Life to automatic successes. This effect is Obvious to the target alone, as in their eyes the face of the previous incarnation shifts and flickers over the warlock's own.

[Revlid]

For KaganMonk:

(POLIS)-DEFENDING CHAMPION DRIVE
Cost: — [2m]; Mins: Charisma 3, Essence 3; Type: Permanent
Keywords: Native, Overdrive
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Any Charisma Augmentation
This Charm can be purchased and installed as many times as the Alchemical desires, with each purchase correlating to a single Polis of his choice; it takes the form of a small cube set into the base of the Alchemical's spine, constructed from the same magical material as its associated Polis, laced with circuits in the shape of that city's former anima banner. Each iteration of this Charm can only be installed in a vats facility belonging to its associated Polis. If the Polis this Charm is associated with is destroyed, it immediately and permanently denatures as though amputated, and all xp spent on it is refunded.

This Charm grants the Alchemical an empty Overdrive pool with a capacity of ten motes (multiple installations of this Charm do not stack in this respect). Whenever he rolls Join Battle within the Charm's associated Polis, he immediately gains one offensive mote for every enemy foreign to that Polis. This is anyone who has not spent the majority of their life living in that Polis; enemy soldiers, Alchemicals of another nation, most first-generation immigrants, pilgrims, tourists, ambassadors, etc. While the Alchemical is actively fighting at least one foreign character in order to defend the Polis from physical damage or conquest, he gains one further offensive mote each time his DV refreshes.

Submodules:
Extended-Borders Receiver (Charisma 4): Also called Tunnelfolk-Clearing Confirmation, this submodule allows the effects of (Polis)-Defending Champion Drive to apply anywhere within a mile of the Polis, provided the Alchemical is not within the borders of another, separate Polis or Nation.

City Undivided Network (4xp): Useful mostly within the conurbation-diluted cities of Sova, this submodule allows the effects of (Polis)-Defending Champion Drive to apply anywhere within (Charisma x 30) yards of a Municipial Charm belonging to the Polis in question.

Blight-Debridement Implant (3xp): As an Axiomatic effect, this submodule enhances (Polis)-Defending Champion Drive, allowing the Alchemical to treat characters they have witnessed making use of Obvious voidtech effects as foreign to the Polis in question. This does not increase the range of that Charm.

Law-as-City Directive (Stamina 3): This submodule enhances (Polis)-Defending Champion Drive, allows the Alchemical to treat any characters he believes to have broken the laws of the Polis as being foreign to it for the purposes of gaining offensive motes with the initial Join Battle roll.

Crime-as-Dereliction Program (Law-as-City Directive, 3xp): This submodule extends the effects of its prerequisite to all aspects of (Polis)-Defending Champion Drive.

Omniecdemic Invasion Reconfiguration: This voidtech submodule immediately refunds the apostate the experience point cost of any and all purchases of (Polis)-Defending Champion Drive. It also excises any non-voidtech submodules for that Charm, refunding their experience point cost and removing their effects. (Polis)-Defending Champion Drive is no longer associated with any cities at all. Instead, it is associated with the Engine of Extinction itself; it applies only within blight zones, granting the apostate offensive motes for rolling Join Battle (and each time his DV refreshes in combat) against non-creatures of the void.

[Xefas]

For Xefas:


Woooooo! :smallbiggrin:

...wait, crap. I can't find the 'thank' button. D=

[Weimann]

I can haz Terrestrial Overdrive Charm that does not interact with the mass Combat system? :smallbiggrin:

[Xefas]

I can haz Terrestrial Overdrive Charm that does not interact with the mass Combat system? :smallbiggrin:

I think it'd be cool to see a Terrestrial charm that mimics the spell Sworn Brother's Oath (or replaces it as the source of Sworn Brotherhoods, with similar but possibly different mechanics, and that spell goes away), and then perhaps an upgrade charm that gives you an Overdrive pool that fills when [thing] happens with your Brotherhood (they take damage, or they deal damage, or you cooperate together for a charm, or whatever - something like that).

[Revlid]

For Terazul:
HEART-POISONING ROOT SHARD
Cost: — (1wp); Mins: Szoreny 0, Essence 2; Type: Permanent
Keywords: Crippling
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Mercury Forge Sap
Whenever the Infernal inflicts at least one level of lethal damage with a weapon created by a Szoreny Charm, he may spend a single point of Willpower to snap the fragments of the weapon off inside his opponent's body. This reduces the final damage of such an attack to a maximum of one lethal health level, and destroys the weapon the Infernal made the attack with. The fragments apply an internal penalty to every one of their dice pools equal to the number of days they have been inside the target (to a minimum of -1) as a Crippling effect. The fragments can be removed with a magically-enhanced operation at difficulty (Infernal's Essence/2), but if the internal penalty they inflict exceeds (target's Willpower + Essence) they reach the very core of their self, and the target is torn apart from within as a Shaping effect, immediately dying and being replaced by a First Circle Demon descended from Szoreny; this demon shares the dead character's intimacies and memories, and retains their Essence rating if it would be higher than the default, but is otherwise identical to a normal example of that breed. The Infernal specifies the breed of demon upon activating this Charm.

[Revlid]

For Weimann:
FIVE-DRAGON COMMANDO TACTICS
Cost: 1m; Mins: War 3, Essence 3; Type: Reflexive (Step 1)
Keywords: Combo-OK, Native, Overdrive
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Any War Excellency or Leading From Below
This Charm grants the Terrestrial an empty Overdrive pool with a capacity of ten motes. The Terrestrial can activate this Charm to enhance any attack she makes against a target suffering from a co-ordinated attack penalty (Exalted, pp.144), immediately gaining offensive motes equal to the number of Terrestrial Exalted (including herself) involved in that co-ordinated attack (i.e. those in the "group of attackers"). She also gains an additional two offensive motes if the character who directed the co-ordinated attack with a War roll was a Celestial Exalt, regardless of whether or not they included themselves in the group of attackers. The Terrestrial can only benefit from this Charm a maximum of once per action.

I also recommend these (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1316931).

[Revlid]

Rikandur Azebol: I'd rather not do any Raksha stuff for the time being; I've got ideas in that area that wouldn't really mesh with the current system.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Really ? If You don't mind me asking ... care to share these ideas ?

[DracoDei]

I don't know Exalted very well, but for the Alchemical charm that gives bonuses in one's home turf, should the add-ons that require ability scores also have XP costs, or are they just automatic if you have those ability scores?

[KaganMonk]

Default xp cost for submodules is 6xp if none is listed.

Now if you really want a workout, you could make colossus rules. Though that is my own plan for when I get more time.

[tonberrian]

Solar charms for two-weapon fighting, please?

[Weimann]

Thanks, Revlid! <3 Basic and thematic, I love it.

[Revlid]

Really? If You don't mind me asking ... care to share these ideas?I had a go at drafting some stuff, yes. (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=59667)

For tonberrian:
MANY-RAYED SUN
Cost: 1m; Mins: War 2, Essence 2; Type: Reflexive (Step 1)
Keywords: Combo-OK
Duration: One flurry
Prerequisite Charms: None
The rays of the Daystar are numberless, and gentle only by choice; the rag-swathed Dune People can attest to the pain that the Sun could inflict with his infinite blades, if he so chose. This Charm enhances a single flurry the Solar makes, reducing any multiple action penalties suffered by attacks in that flurry by an amount equal to the number of separate weapons he uses in that flurry. For this purpose, all the Solar's natural attacks are treated as a single weapon. This Charm can also be used to enhance any Extra Action Charm that the Solar uses to make attacks with more than one weapon, reducing its cost by two motes.

As a final, permanent benefit, learning this Charm allows the Solar to ignore any off-hand penalties.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Interesting concept, thanks a lot Revlid. Would love to read new ones when You feel like sharing them.

[Gareth3]

I'd like to request some versions of Hollow Mind Possession, but for other Yozis. An Adjoran charm that gives machines sentience and free will, an Ebon Dragon charm that causes machines to malfunction at the worst possible time, and so on.

[Xefas]

What would a Heretical charm built off one of the Cosmic Transcendence of [Virtue]s and Naked Wicked Souls look like?

Also, a Kimbery song/dance charm, maybe? I don't think we have one of those.

[Revlid]

For Gareth3:
INFINITE FUTILITY INFECTION
Cost: (Essence x 4)m; Mins: Essence 5; Type: Simple
Keywords: Combo-OK, Sorcerous
Duration: Indefinite
Prerequisite Charms: Hollow Mind Possession, Shadow Spite Curse
She Who Lives in Her Name knows that free will is an aberration, and finds it personally offensive that the Exalts of the First Age dared to employ it to even a limited extent in their own creations. Uniting her stark fidelity with the hollow spite of the Ebon Dragon reveals a truth to those material intelligences; free will is simply pointless. The Infernal may activate this Charm whenever he is in direct control of an MI, spending (Essence x 4) motes to form a recursively futile philosophy in the MI; failure is inevitable, each action undermined by everything that ever preceded it, all the way back to the MI’s own misguided inception. This idea is sealed away, like a canister of toxic waste dumped into the oceans of the MI’s awareness, and only erupts into a spat of fully-fledged nihilism once the MI is asked to take action.

The next time any character other than the Infernal gives an order to (or otherwise attempts to operate) the infected MI, this Sorcerous package of misfortune is triggered, as oozing shadows erupt from the machine, flailing in despair before vanishing in an instant. The manse immediately suffers Power Failure as a Sorcerous effect lasting one day. For the duration of this Power Failure, the victim who gave the order suffers from an external penalty of –(Infernal’s Essence) on any action that could be subverted by the Infernal’s Shadow Spite Curse. This penalty lasts one day, and does not stack with actual applications of Shadow Spite Curse. Every character the victim has a positive intimacy toward also suffers from this penalty, though in their case it is a Shaping effect and can be defended against as such.

At Essence 5+, the Infernal may remove the Obvious display of shadowy tendrils when this Charm’s effects are triggered.

If the Infernal knows Selfishness Is Power, he may replace the effects of Shadow Spite Curse with the effects of that Charm, using his metaphysical virus to spread self-interest rather than tragic and inevitable failure.

If the Infernal knows Noumena-Seizing Assimilation, he may purchase this Charm a second time. If he does so, he is automatically notified whenever one of his Sorcerous packages are triggered. He instinctively knows which MI the package was placed within, but not who actually triggered it. He is not notified if a package is dispelled.

In addition, he may increase the cost of this Charm by one aggravated health level, imbuing his Sorcerous package of misfortune with a chunk of his own vital spite. Whenever that package is triggered, any and all MIs that could be targeted from the original MI with Noumena-Seizing Assimilation immediately receive a copy of the same Sorcerous package, provided the Infernal has already established a backdoor to their systems. These new Sorcerous packages do not similarly spread when activated, until the Infernal reaches Essence 7+.

CARELESS DIRECTIVE INSERTION
Cost: —; Mins: Essence 4; Type: Permanent
Keywords: Heretical
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Counter-Pronouncement of Enthymemic Law, Hollow Mind Possession
The integration of whim and law exhibited by the Endless Desert frustrates She Who Lives in Her Name beyond belief; even belligerent Isidoros simply rejects the hierarchy, rather than nonchalantly mocking it through its own structure. Nevertheless, Cecelyne is the judge and lawmaker of the Primordials, so the Principle of Hierarchy must tolerate her groundless decisions and integrate them into her worldview as best she can. Others are not so capable.

This Charm permanently enhances any Cecelynian Charms that inflict an intimacy (or some other form of loyalty) toward a law as a Servitude effect. These effects can now be applied against characters the Infernal could target with Hollow Mind Possession (such as automatons, the dream-eaten, material intelligences, etc), if they could not before. Such targets acquire this intimacy even if they would not normally be capable of maintaining intimacies, and cannot erode it through mundane means. As normal, they treat this intimacy as being subordinate to their Motivation, but will generally try to accommodate both simultaneously, if possible.

In addition, such targets gain a Limit track, which they add one point to every time they take an action that contradicts this intimacy. Upon acquiring ten points of Limit, they suffer the uncontrolled version of the Deliberate Cruelty Limit Break for a single scene (regaining no Willpower from doing so), before removing all points of acquired Limit. If they undergo this insanity more than (Artifact or Manse or Essence rating) times, they replace their Motivation with the intimacy that triggered their last Limit gain, and constantly suffer from the controlled version of the Deliberate Cruelty Limit Break. There is no known cure for this state, but it is not yet believed to be contagious. Targets who already possess a Limit track are immune to this effect.

[Madwand]

I would like to request an upgrade to Sun-Heart Furnace Soul; some cool benefit from having second soul :smallsmile:

[Gareth3]

Thanks, that's pretty cool. I didn't think of making them heretical, but it works.

[Revlid]

For Xefas:
OPPOSITION-IS-EVIL REVELATION
Cost: — (1m); Mins: Essence 2; Type: Permanent
Keywords: Heretical
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Cosmic Transcendence of Compassion, Naked Wicked Souls
The Ebon Dragon is interested in the personal failings of the lowliest mortal and the mightiest god, every self-defeat a prayer. How foreign to that is the disinterest of the Principle of Hierarchy, who cares only that all remain in their place? Yet the ingenuity of the Infernal Exalted is without bounds or borders. Their plans are paramount, so their opposition has failed themselves, even if they know it not. This Charm permanently enhances Naked Wicked Souls, allowing the warlock to use it to sense actions that directly contradict his personal greater good, as though they were the suppression of a Virtue. He only learns that such an act took place within the radius of that Charm; to learn its relative location, he must spend a single mote. Further informational upgrades (i.e. a synopsis of the act, the sinner's rationale, the sinner's identity) can also be applied at higher Essence, but each require the expenditure of one further mote to apply per act.

It is generally assumed that a warlock who learns of the monstrous transgressions of those who surround him will not stand idle. At the end of any scene in which the warlock learned of more than (Temperance) acts that contradicted his personal greater good and did not take action to correct or punish at least one of the sinners, he gains a single point of Limit.

[Yuki Akuma]

..How about a Heretical charm designed to give your Lunar Mate some limited access to your personal Primordial 2.0 charms?

Maybe turning them into something resembling a Fetich or something. .-.

Or is that just silly? :smalltongue:

[Xefas]

For Xefas:
It's... beautiful. :smallcool:


..How about a Heretical charm designed to give your Lunar Mate some limited access to your personal Primordial 2.0 charms?
There's a canon charm that does that already. It's called 'The Song of the Shadow'. :smallsmile:

[Yuki Akuma]

It's... beautiful. :smallcool:


There's a canon charm that does that already. It's called 'The Song of the Shadow'. :smallsmile:

That turns them into Akuma and isn't what I was asking for. :smalltongue:

[Xefas]

That turns them into Akuma and isn't what I was asking for. :smalltongue:

I don't see the problem. They get your charms, and there's one more Infernal in the world. Sounds like a win-win.

Having them take on fetichistic duties would be an interesting sort of gravy on top of that.

[Yuki Akuma]

Well, mostly because I think a different sort of supernatural link owing to the fact that it's your Lunar mate would be neat. Also my current GSP doesn't like the idea of turning his mate into a total slave.

[Revlid]

For Madwand:
Using EarthScorpion's coadjutor write-up (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=59754).
TWO IS COMPANY
Cost: — ; Mins: Essence 3; Type: Permanent
Keywords: Unwoven (3)
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Sun-Heart Furnace Soul
The coadjutor interacts with the magic of the Yozis in ways yet unknown to them, considered a necessary evil by the Lords of Hell. Fusing her mental advisor with the embryonic heart-soul created in mimicry of Ligier, the Infernal invigorates herself through indulgent whispers. This Charm permanently enhances the ten-mote Peripheral Essence pool granted by its prerequisite; the Infernal may add one mote to that pool for each hour she spends acting in a manner that affirms the intimacy granted by her Unwoven Coadjutor; a Green Sun Prince with a teakettle courtier as a coadjutor might gain these motes by dealing in secrets, silencing laughter, or aiding Gumela, for example. The Infernal must actually possess this intimacy for the Charm to function.

With Unwoven (5), this Charm can also fill the ten-mote Peripheral Essence pool granted by Flames Lit Within, though doing so instead requires that the warlock work toward the Motivation (or rough analogue) of the coadjutor, as described in Unwoven Coadjutor 5, fooling the strictures of the Whispering Flame with a pseudo-Urge.

[Revlid]

For Yuki Akuma:
SORCEROUS AVATAR DELEGATION
Cost: 5+wp; Mins: Essence 6; Type: Simple (Dramatic Action)
Keywords: Heretical
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Triumphant Howl of the Devil-Tiger, Sorcerous Initiation of (Warlock) (x3)
Using this Charm requires that the warlock spend a dramatic action of one month (or five days during Calibration) in isolation with her target, who she must have a positive intimacy toward (and vice-versa). The intimacy produced by a Third Circle Deva created through The Path of a Thousand Whispers is treated as an intimacy toward them for this purpose (as are similar intimacies). Upon completing this hermetic hermitage, she empties her Willpower pool and forges a link to her target that runs below the strata of existence, an umbilical cord through which sorcerous precepts flow and mingle, turning them into a sorcerous avatar.

The avatar may now learn spells from a Circle of Sorcery one higher than they normally would be able to, with no need to learn the Charm that would grant them access to that Circle. However, the only spells they can learn are those that resonate (thematically or mechanically) with the warlock's own Sorcerous Initiation, or "general" spells such as Countermagic and Banishment. Using such a spell requires a successful prayer to the warlock (if he can hear prayers, he is free to reject it, causing the roll to fail) as part of the first Shape Sorcery action the avatar takes for that spell. Otherwise, the borrowed spell catastrophically fails, as though the avatar botched a concentration roll in the face of distraction. Spells cast in this way do not benefit (or suffer) from the effects of the warlock's Sorcerous Initiation, but are subject to the usual cosmetic warping.

The warlock's intimacy toward their avatar cannot be eroded or removed by natural mental influence, and the cost to resist any unnatural mental influence that would do so is reduced by (avatar's Essence ÷ 2), rounded down. If the intimacy is removed, the warlock treats any scene in which he casts or learns a spell as a scene spent rebuilding it.

The warlock may only possess one such avatar at a time, and can only sever their connection to an avatar on Calibration; doing so also removes the positive intimacy they have toward them.

[Revlid]

For Yuki Akuma:
THE BRIDGE OF A CRIMSON ORBIT
Cost: — ; Mins: Essence 8; Type: Permanent
Keywords: Heretical
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Sorcerous Avatar Delegation, The Path of a Thousand Whispers
This Charm functions exactly like The Song of the Shadow, with the exception that the instance of the Investiture of Infernal Glory that it grants to a Third Circle Soul can only be applied to the warlock's Lunar Mate, and markedly alters the process, leaving her with her heart and mind intact. The vitriol that floods into his mate’s very soul is not the usual burnt green acid, but a mix of mercurial silver and bloody red. Its touch is just as painful as normal for the Investiture, but it is a deep, sore pain, like burning muscles after a marathon, rather than the normal gratuitous agony.

Mechanically, the Investiture functions as normal. It is a mark of the trust necessary between a warlock and his soulmate that the Lunar’s Intimacies, Willpower, and Virtues can be changed. Regardless of whether the warlock decides to meddle with his partner's mind, her tastes in music, food or aesthetics may shift slightly, similar to someone who has undergone brain surgery (albeit likely with rather more alien preferences).

However, the Lunar does not gain access to Sidereal Martial Arts, and learns the warlock's personal Charms at a cost of 16xp each. Further, the Infernal does not choose the Urge the Lunar is granted – it is exactly the same as his own Urge, and will shift to match it if it should ever change. As a trade-off for this reduced power, the Urge does not replace the Lunar’s Motivation, but is applied alongside it, in the same manner as a Green Sun Prince. She no longer suffers Limit Break upon reaching ten points of Limit, but instead undergoes the Torment defined by The Face of the Titans (this, incidentally, removes any hope of the Lunar completely ridding herself of the Great Curse and its Limit Track – it is now inherent to her nature). The Lunar may not lose Limit through Acts of Villainy, except for the Infernal’s own Precipitous Fiat, granted by The Dance of the Thrashing Dragon.

This enlightened transformation comes at an increased cost, however – it completely consumes the Third Circle Soul who applied the Investiture, dissolving them into the crimson of the Lunar’s soul. The dissolved deva still counts against the maximum number that the Infernal can maintain at any one time, for his bond to it lives on within his mate; the Lunar may purchase dots in the Unwoven Coadjutor background, up to her Solar Bond rating, with the consciousness of the sacrificed Third Circle Soul acting as her coadjutor. She adds the form of that deva, their dispersed Second Circle Souls, and any First Circle Demons descended from them to her Heart’s Blood Library, though she may only access them with the appropriate Knacks, as normal.

The intimacy the Infernal once had toward the Motivation of the sacrificed Third Circle Soul now switches to an intimacy toward the Motivation of his Lunar Mate. Upon learning The Way of the Resplendent Crane, the Infernal and his Lunar Mate may use this connection to communicate with each other as described. The Infernal may possess his Mate, as well, but this requires her consent - she may resist the possession at a cost of zero points of Willpower.

It should also be noted that, if the Infernal’s dissolved deva was not a creature of darkness at the time of the Investiture, his Lunar Mate does not become one upon undergoing the Investiture.

[Yuki Akuma]

Well, those charms are awesome.

Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

[Lochar]

Revlid, Face of the Titans redefines your Urge to always match your Motivation. So the Lunar Mate gets an Urge of the Devil Tiger's Motivation then?

[Revlid]

Yes, that it is how it works.

I don't use the canon version of Face of the Titans, personally, since it's rather derpy.

[Lochar]

You can't say that without linking your version of it, you know this. :smalltongue:

[Xefas]

Man, I wish I had a boy and/or girl to be my magical fetishistic heart.

So, Revlid, how about some kind of Heretical charm to ensure that your ghost comes back as an extremely powerful and highly vengeful (but non-Exalted, obviously) deathlord-esque being, using your Exaltation-sodden coadjutor in place of the Neverborn's subsidiary soul as a power source?

Cause, I mean, if I die, I don't want to be a footnote in the campaign log. I want to be the guy that comes back and ends the game via TPK.

[Revlid]

You can't say that without linking your version of it, you know this. :smalltongue:

A Devil-Tiger's Urge should reflect the thematics and ideals of their Excellency. It shouldn't just double up on their Motivation. The former acts as another step on the road to Devil-Tigers becoming just as alien as their erstwhile masters, and facilitates the conversion of the coadjutor into a pseudo-fetich in terms of its relationship with the Infernal. The latter just gives every Devil-Tiger super-Conviction.

It should be:
THE FACE OF THE TITANS
Cost: —; Mins: Essence 6; Type: Permanent
Keywords: Heretical
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: The Flame of the Rising Phoenix
The warlock smiles or sobs, whichever may be appropriate to her transcendence, as the chains of the Yozis fall from her heart. She weaves a final Chrysalis Grotesque, which functions identically to that of this Charm’s prerequisite. Upon emerging, she redefines her Urge archetype into one that better suits her personal Excellency. She then alters her current Urge to fit this new archetype, or (if they are completely incompatible) develops an entirely new Urge within the limits of this new archetype. This new Urge functions as normal (including restrictions on its alteration), and her Unwoven Coadjutor is woven anew to better champion it; the Infernal may choose to subsume her demon-vizier into the subconscious tingling of her Urge, or allow it to continue as an outright voice in her head. If the Infernal had any aspects of her bodily appearance dictated by her coadjutor, they also shift to better match her own unique Infernal nature.

The reins of Torment may be taken out of the hands of the Yozis, but they do not disappear altogether; the Primordial madness is a natural consequence of a cosmic principle being contradicted. The Infernal must define her own new Torment manifestation, using published Torments as a guideline. She continues to accumulate and reduce Limit in the normal manner; acting against the dictates of her own nature guides the Exalt’s hellish Essence to viciously lash out against her.

[horngeek]

To be honest, however, something as integral to a character as Motivations should already fit said Themes. So, I don't really see the problem.

[Revlid]

To be honest, however, something as integral to a character as Motivations should already fit said Themes. So, I don't really see the problem.Well, first off, the whole point of Devil-Tigers is that they're not as limited as true Primordials. They can (and probably should) act outside the themes they've laid down in their mythos. It is totally valid for a Devil-Tiger who has laid down his legend as the Cascade of Vengeance to have a Motivation of "Save my lady love from the clutches of the raksha", but this has jack-all to do with his themes. He's a person, so he can do that.

Secondly, symmetry demands it. A tree that starts off with "define the Primordial-you" and goes on to "design Charms and a Caste appropriate to the Primordial-you", and later incorporates "design a Precipitous Fiat appropriate to the Primordial-you" and "design an inner world appropriate to the Primordial-you" should include "design an Urge and Torment appropriate to the Primordial-you". Not "double up on your Motivation".

Thirdly, all Primordials have a Motivation, Urge and Torment*. They gain Limit by suppressing their Primary Virtue, resisting unnatural mental influence, or acting against their Urge. When they reach Limit 10, they enter Torment. This stems from the fact that they have declared themselves a cosmic principle, but can still be contradicted; the titan is absolute, but can be defeated or turned aside? This paradox fractures their psyches, causing the Primordial madness that drives the Demon Emperor into surrender, the Whispering Flame into furious outburst, and Cecelyne into petulant righteousness.

*The exception is the Ebon Dragon, who lacks a Motivation thanks to being as hollow as the akuma he creates.

In Green Sun Princes, the Great Curse warps into this Torment, since they're closer to baby Primordials than actual Limit-cursed Solars. Except when they declare their own cosmic principle, they don't get their own Urge, appropriate to their themes. They just get their Motivation... again. This is less cool, and, if anything, makes them less flexible than the Primordials.

[Lix Lorn]

What would a Heretical charm built off one of the Cosmic Transcendence of [Virtue]s and Naked Wicked Souls look like?
Poor unfortunate souls~


Having them take on fetichistic duties would be an interesting sort of gravy on top of that.
They're a lunar mate, aren't they already-oh, fetich, right.


Man, I wish I had a boy and/or girl to be my magical fetishistic heart.
You should hold tryouts!
...
I didn't realise til I posted this that all three of these were Xefas. Um. That's awkward.

But I will say that I totally agree with everything revlid said about face of the titans?

[Revlid]

For Xefas:
ANCHOR OF ONE HUNDRED-HANDS
Cost: — ; Mins: Essence 5; Type: Permanent
Keywords: Unwoven (3) (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=59754)
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Ultimate Darkness Internalization, Sorcerous Enlightenment of (Yozi) x3
The warlock's demon-vizier is glutted on the power of her Emerald Spark, like a leech grown fat and celestial atop an endless vein of divine blood. Always loathe to let its charge sink out of the world, the coadjutor now has the power to back up its urgings, and sinks its sorcerous hooks deep into her soul, keeping it from the abyss as best it can. This Charm grants the warlock additional Dying Health Levels equal to her Unwoven Coadjutor rating.

Further, if the warlock dies, this strange union continues on its desperate spiral of continued existence. She leaves no hungry ghost. Instead, her soul emerges into the Labyrinth five days after his death, still fully conjoined by the sinewy energies of the coadjutor. This provokes a roll-off against any effect that would permanently destroy the warlock's soul upon death, with the warlock rolling (Unwoven Coadjutor) against his killer's (Essence).

This strange entity is the Infernal's ghost (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=56855). As normal, it retains the Infernal's Attribute, Ability, and Virtue ratings at the time of his death, as well as his Specialties and memories. It bears Passions, which are determined as normal, though its Primary Passion is always the Infernal's former Urge. There are exceptions to the normal rules for ghosts that the Infernal's spirit benefits from, as described below:

• The ghost retains the Infernal's full Essence rating, rather than losing a dot upon her death.

• The ghost retains the Infernal's Unwoven Coadjutor rating. Note that a level-3 Unwoven Coadjutor creates a Passion, rather than an intimacy, as described in the Passion rules. Whenever the ghost would lose Limit thanks to the Unwoven Coadjutor, it instead regains a single channel for each of its Passions. Further, the ghost begins play with a Whispers rating equal to its Unwoven Coadjutor rating.

• While the ghost retains any Martial Arts Charm the Infernal knew as normal, it also retains any Infernal Monster Expansion Charms she knew. The ghost still cannot use non-Terrestrial Martial Arts Charms it knows without learning the Arcanos Charm Echoes of Enlightened Violence.

• The ghost bears (and is, by default, attuned to) soulsteel or jade copies of any artifacts the Infernal was attuned to at the time of her death, though it does not also receive grave goods stemming from such artifacts. At the Storyteller's discretion, tools created by Yozi Charms may be converted into actual artifacts for this purpose, with a rating equal to the minimum Essence rating of the Charm that created them and an attunement cost equal to that Charm's cost.

• The ghost starts with ([Essence x 2] + highest two Virtues + Unwoven Coadjutor) Arcanos Charms that it meets the requirements of, and may learn further ones as normal. It also has access to all the Spirit Charms known to the Infernal's coadjutor (though it can only use them if it meets the given requirements), and bears (Essence + Willpower) points of permanent physical mutations themed around the coadjutor. It can learn further Spirit Charms at a cost of 20xp each, with the same training times as Arcanoi.

• The ghost can benefit from the Hungry keyword as though it were a yidak, but remains unrestricted by the Hungry-No keyword.

• The ghost retains access to any General Primordial Charms the Infernal knew at the time of his death. All of these Charms function normally, except for the Sorcerous Enlightenment of (Yozi), which the ghost can use to learn and cast Emerald Circle Sorcery and Iron or Onyx Circle Necromancy, with the usual warping and mechanical effects.

• The ghost also retains access to any Primordial Charms that granted it additional (non-Overdrive) mote pools, ignoring any necessary prerequisites. These mote pools can be filled and used as normal, and remain Peripheral.

• The ghost retains its anima banner and anima power, though the former is warped to a more deathly manifestation appropriate to the Underworld. It may treat any Personal motes it spends as Peripheral for the purposes of flaring its anima.

• The ghost cannot be summoned or bound as though they were a ghost. They can be summoned through the Summon Hekatonkhire spell from Obsidian Circle Necromancy, but benefit from (Unwoven Coadjutor) automatic successes to any attempt to bind them through this spell.

• If the ghost has Essence 7+, the Storyteller and player should work together to generate approximately (Essence - 6) unique panoply Spirit Charms for their usage, based off their Passions, coadjutor, known Yozi Excellencies, and general nature.

[Lochar]

What happens if you die with Third Circle Souls of your own? Do you get your own hek(howeverthefyouspellit)?

[Xefas]

For Xefas:
ANCHOR OF ONE HUNDRED-HANDS

Amazing, as always. Two questions, though. One, they retain access to Infernal Monster expansions, but can they continue to learn new ones after death? And two, in your opinion, is this more how Deathlords should look? Like, mostly martial arts, some sorcery, plus maybe some general charms, plus unique panoplies, but not "All the Solar Charms"?

And, another request, of course - I feel like the charm 'The Time Is Now' is one of those things Infernals should be able to do. Is there a way to have something like that, but that is meaningfully different enough to not just be a cosmetic re-skin of a Solar charm?


Poor unfortunate souls~

So awesome.

[Revlid]

What happens if you die with Third Circle Souls of your own? Do you get your own hek(howeverthefyouspellit)?This Charm has no bearing on whether or not your deva become hekatonkhires.


Amazing, as always. Two questions, though. One, they retain access to Infernal Monster expansions, but can they continue to learn new ones after death?No. They're a ghost, and aside from the exceptions listed, continue to learn things as ghosts.


And two, in your opinion, is this more how Deathlords should look? Like, mostly martial arts, some sorcery, plus maybe some general charms, plus unique panoplies, but not "All the Solar Charms"?Yes. This is, perhaps, slightly less powerful than an actual deathlord might be at the same Essence (depending on how many and which General Primordial Charms you grabbed before you died), but it's the same general principle. Every Arcanoi, including some high-Essence ones specifically written for their write-up, a ton of Spirit Charms, and a few unique panoply powers alluding to their nature, past life, and the defunct titansouls fused with them.

The Viator of Nullspace, from Compass: Autochthonia is a good example of what a deathlord write-up should look like.


And, another request, of course - I feel like the charm 'The Time Is Now' is one of those things Infernals should be able to do. Is there a way to have something like that, but that is meaningfully different enough to not just be a cosmetic re-skin of a Solar charm?I do not think that The Time Is Now is a Charm that should exist in any set.

[Xefas]

I do not think that The Time Is Now is a Charm that should exist in any set.

Okay. Let me rephrase it then. I think that the relationship between the Yozi and their demons is relatively well established. We have some nice Yozi charms that muck about with demons, such as 'From Desolation, Life', and 'Inner Devils Unchained'.

Is there room for a Heretical or Infernal Monster charm that mucks about with demons in a way that is distinctly inherent to the Green Sun Prince Exaltation, and their nature as Princes/Leaders of demonkind, that perhaps does not exceed a Yozi's power in mucking with demons, but mucks with them in a way that is powerful just because a Yozi cannot do this mucking by virtue of being a Yozi?

[Madwand]

For Madwand:
Using EarthScorpion's coadjutor write-up.
TWO IS COMPANY

Thanks! :smallsmile:

Could I ask for Heretical charm between Analytical Modeling Intuition/Will-Crushing Force and Broken Sould Wisdom? Something to re-write minds of more then mortals? :smallsmile:

[Volthawk]

Hmm, how about a charm that kind of hybridises the Kimbery charms in your mutation revision (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=57388) and EarthScorpion's coadjutor stuff (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=59754), that works a bit like the Unweave Into Hollowness charm in the coadjutor writeup, except instead of uploading the coadjutor into a dream-eaten, it uploads it into the project in your genesis-womb.

[Revlid]

Is there room for a Heretical or Infernal Monster charm that mucks about with demons in a way that is distinctly inherent to the Green Sun Prince Exaltation, and their nature as Princes/Leaders of demonkind, that perhaps does not exceed a Yozi's power in mucking with demons, but mucks with them in a way that is powerful just because a Yozi cannot do this mucking by virtue of being a Yozi?Well, yeah. There's loads of room for that sort of thing.

Por exemplo:
ROAD PAVED WITH BAD INTENTIONS
Cost: 5+m; Mins: Essence 5; Type: Supplemental
Keywords: Combo-OK, Heretical, Obvious, Shaping
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: Fate-Rending Desperation, Hellscry Chakra
The warlock may use this Charm to supplement any roll to reduce Limit from an Act of Villainy that he makes in Creation, allowing him to remove any number of dice from that pool and select a single demon in Malfeas, at a cost of five motes for a First Circle Demon, ten motes for a Second Circle, and fifteen motes for a Third Circle. That demon is granted the ability to enter Creation unbound, as though their condition for temporarily slipping the bonds of the Surrender Oaths had been met. The demon appears from the debris of the Yozi-resonant deed; a successful seduction with Exquisite Bride Obsession might result in the demon appearing amongst the rumpled and stained sheets, while a demon called through Fiendish Deathtrap Compulsion might appear to emerge from the mechanisms of the warlock's trap.

A successfully called demon possesses a basic understanding of the circumstances under which the Act of Villainy was performed, and is under no particular obligation to actually leave Malfeas, but may (if it is of the Second or Third Circle) send a demon descended from itself in its place. Third Circle Demons called in this way cannot have an Essence rating any higher than (removed dice), while Second Circle Demons cannot have an Essence rating higher than (removed dice -1). First Circle Demons cannot have an Essence rating any higher than (removed dice - 2), to a minimum of one, but such a demon always appears; specific demons may refuse, but the calling will flit around Malfeas until one is found who accepts the Infernal's invitation.

If the Act of Villainy in question particularly resonated with the chosen demon in some way, the effective number of dice that have been removed increases by two. Look to the demon's appearance, nature, compulsions, Motivation, intimacies, unbinding and Limit-gain conditions for ideas as to resonant Acts of Villainy; a blood ape might be called more easily by killing an enemy's beloved pet cats and writing his name in their blood to fulfill Insane Death-Dealing Provocation, while describing your treasonous plan to an enemy on a cliff face to fulfill Infernal Genius Declaration would aid in the calling of Munaxes.

Obviously, demons bound with Sorcery cannot be called in this way, regardless of whether they are in Malfeas or not. The Infernal may activate this Charm multiple times to split his dice between summoning multiple demons, and if using this Charm would result in the Infernal rolling no dice to reduce his Limit, that Act of Villainy does not count against the usual "one per game session" maximum.

[Xefas]

ROAD PAVED WITH BAD INTENTIONS

Yuuusssss, that was exactly the kind of thing I wanted. :smallbiggrin:

And it makes Acts actually interest me. IIRC, in the dozen or so sessions I got to play an Infernal in my meatspace group, I think I might've used an Act of Villainy... once? The idea is neat, but siphoning off a point of limit or two just isn't that awesome, in my opinion. Certainly not as awesome as seeing my character go into Limit Break and shake things up. An alternative use like this is good.

If you combine multiple Acts together into one action, does it all count as a single pool for this charm? I'm assuming that's how you get the Third Circle Demons, as otherwise, it looks like it's capped at Essence 7.

edit: The charm is indefinite. Are the motes committed while the demon is in Creation? Or are they just committed until the demon chooses to enter Creation? Something else? Can you end it prematurely/what effect does that have?

[Revlid]

If you combine multiple Acts together into one action, does it all count as a single pool for this charm?That's how Acts of Villainy generally work, yes. Remember that you can also get stunt dice on your Virtue roll for particularly inventive or dramatic Acts.


The charm is indefinite. Are the motes committed while the demon is in Creation? Or are they just committed until the demon chooses to enter Creation? Something else? Can you end it prematurely/what effect does that have?Editing relic. It mutated quite a bit through the writing.

[vegetalss4]

ROAD PAVED WITH BAD INTENTIONS

Why is it comparatively easier to summon third circle demons than second circle demons than first circle ones?

[Xefas]

Some things I thought of at work today.

Can Malfeas and Cecelyne work together to irradiate an animal such that those it bites become superheroes, ala Spiderman? Journalist-Uplifting Methodology? Better Living Through Monstrosity?

And, it occurs to me that a Devil-Tiger may need some serious kind of XP-tax-reducer. In that, for example, if your character is heavily defined by his use of Green Sun Nimbus Flare, or his possession of Cosmic Transcendence of Compassion, and then he makes the [Dude] Charmset, then it would follow that a close analogue to those crucial charms would be in that set. They may even be very vital, requiring Blue Star Halo Flame to be taken to get any offensive charms at all.

But, if you already have Green Sun Nimbus Flare, then why do you have to waste 8xp on something that doesn't help you at all? Devil Tigers seem to already be taxed somewhat by taking the Devil Tiger progression of charms in the first place.

So, is there a more elegant charm solution to this than just something that says "If you buy a charm that does almost the exact same sodding thing that another charm you already have does, then you don't have to pay for it."?

Similarly, if you spent xp on "buying" a Grand Daiklave, and it became so vital a part of you that you have a Glorious Dudeblessed Grand Daiklave Corona Endowment charm, making your actual daiklave ironically useless, is there some heretical solution to this as well?

[Lochar]

Devil Tiger, you get to turn in your other General Yozi charms if you want, breaking them down for XP, along with all non-Devil Tiger charms that rely on the general charm.

So if something requires First Malfeas, you can get all that XP back that way. And then immediately buy Phoenix and build your new charmset that way.

[Xefas]

Devil Tiger, you get to turn in your other General Yozi charms if you want, breaking them down for XP, along with all non-Devil Tiger charms that rely on the general charm.

So if something requires First Malfeas, you can get all that XP back that way. And then immediately buy Phoenix and build your new charmset that way.

I know? I'm not sure what that has to do with my examples. I see the General Charm refund as a precedent for this sort of thing.

[Lochar]

I know? I'm not sure what that has to do with my examples. I see the General Charm refund as a precedent for this sort of thing.

Make sure you buy charms that are supported by General Charms?

[Rikandur Azebol]

Now some more traditional requests from me ...

Shintai Charm for Kimbery charmset. Turning You into sanity shattering tentacle horror, of course. :smallbiggrin:

Shintai Charm for Infernal Monster, as it seem to be good idea. :smalltongue:

[Vauron]

Now some more traditional requests from me ...

Shintai Charm for Kimbery charmset. Turning You into sanity shattering tentacle horror, of course. :smallbiggrin:


Isn't that already a thing? All Devouring Depths Shintai would do all of that save the 'sanity shattering' bit.

[Lix Lorn]

Shintai Charm for Infernal Monster, as it seem to be good idea. :smalltongue:
There is one. Untamed Apocalypse.
What, you want one that leaves the character PLAYABLE? Oooh. I think Revlid already has one. (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?title=Charms:Those_Who_Are_About_to_Die_ Shintai)

[Rikandur Azebol]

Untamed Apocalypse is shweet, but would make player and ST bored quickly. Don't You think ? :smallwink:

[Xefas]

Untamed Apocalypse is shweet, but would make player and ST bored quickly. Don't You think ? :smallwink:

I, for one, would never get tired of yelling 'Kakarot' at the top of my lungs while crushing babies against my skull like empty beer cans. (And whatever I did in-game would be fun too, I guess.)

[Revlid]

Why is it comparatively easier to summon third circle demons than second circle demons than first circle ones?Consider the difference between Third Circle Essence ratings and Second Circle Essence ratings.


Some things I thought of at work today.

Can Malfeas and Cecelyne work together to irradiate an animal such that those it bites become superheroes, ala Spiderman? Journalist-Uplifting Methodology? Better Living Through Monstrosity?I don't think this needs to be Heresy. In fact, I think EarthScorpion has done some stuff like this...

Yep, here we are (http://forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1134284).


And, it occurs to me that a Devil-Tiger may need some serious kind of XP-tax-reducer. In that, for example, if your character is heavily defined by his use of Green Sun Nimbus Flare, or his possession of Cosmic Transcendence of Compassion, and then he makes the [Dude] Charmset, then it would follow that a close analogue to those crucial charms would be in that set. They may even be very vital, requiring Blue Star Halo Flame to be taken to get any offensive charms at all.

But, if you already have Green Sun Nimbus Flare, then why do you have to waste 8xp on something that doesn't help you at all? Devil Tigers seem to already be taxed somewhat by taking the Devil Tiger progression of charms in the first place.

So, is there a more elegant charm solution to this than just something that says "If you buy a charm that does almost the exact same sodding thing that another charm you already have does, then you don't have to pay for it."?There is an incredibly elegant solution to this, and it reads something like:

"When writing homebrew, don't produce exact duplicates of existing Charms that you already have access to."

I cannot express how strongly I doubt that "I use Green Sun Nimbus Flare" is going to be part of a character's personal mythos. Hell, it's barely even part of Malfeas'!

What's important is how that character uses that Green Sun Nimbus Flare, what her extensive use of Green Sun Nimbus Flare means to her. Is she willing to ignore the horrific injuries and dreadful blights it causes, because it's an effective weapon? Does she use it because she likes watching stuff burn? Or because it's intimidating and she knows that fear is power? Or because she thinks there's no such thing as overkill?

These are the elements that inform the Excellency, and from there, the rest of the Primordial. Not "I have a damage adder".

When I finish writing Elloge, I'm going to do an article on how to write Yozi (and, presumably, Devil-Tiger) Charmsets. Swear to god. Remind me if I forget.


Similarly, if you spent xp on "buying" a Grand Daiklave, and it became so vital a part of you that you have a Glorious Dudeblessed Grand Daiklave Corona Endowment charm, making your actual daiklave ironically useless, is there some heretical solution to this as well?See above. Does she wield a Grand Daiklave because bigger is better, or because it's a treasured heirloom, or what? This is the sort of thing that should inform her Charms, not "I have a big sword". Why does she have a big sword, and what does that mean for her.

Oh, and in this exact situation, I'd do the same thing that a Solar might do if he had a Grand Daiklave and ended up buying Glorious Solar Saber anyway; ditch the weapon somehow (gift it to a raksha, use it as raw ingredients, conspire with the ST to break it at a dramatic moment, use it as a grave-gift for a fallen comrade, whatever) and get an xp refund for the removed background.

[Lix Lorn]

I don't disagree with anything you say there per se, but what if the REASON you use Green Sun Nimbus Flare is because it's the green sun? If you're using it because it's itself, then that's the part you need to replicate, right?

I actually have a devil-tiger who has Ligier as an ally, and this is the reason she'll have GSNF under a different name in her charms.
She also has a massive crush for him, but that is neither here nor there.

[The_Snark]

When I finish writing Elloge, I'm going to do an article on how to write Yozi (and, presumably, Devil-Tiger) Charmsets. Swear to god. Remind me if I forget.

I would very much like to see that, especially the parts concerning Devil-Tigers. Xefas touches on something that makes designing a Devil-Tiger rather tricky, I think—namely that by the time you reach Essence 6 and start designing your own Charms, you have likely been playing the character for a while now. You've got a set of Charms and an aesthetic that you like; how do you build on that without copying the Yozis whose Charms and aesthetics you've been drawing on throughout your career?

Let's say you're playing a Slayer favoring Kimbery; you are a faceless warrior wrapped from head to toe in a shell of verdigris and brass, dripping seawater and poison, one hand clutching a rune-graved sword. You've just hit Essence 6, your group is looking at Triumphant Howl of the Devil-Tiger and liking what it sees... but what are you going to do? Aesthetically speaking, you're a straightforward blend of Malfeas and Kimbery, brass and seawater and poison and all that jazz. What then? Are you supposed to abandon your old aesthetics?

Furthermore, what if your character takes after your patrons closely enough that you can't think of a separate set of themes? You're not exactly the same as your patrons, but close enough that their Charms can represent you, especially if you design a few Heretical charms that blend the two (and maybe another Yozi on occasion). You could maybe manage an Excellency of your own, but nothing you can come up with feels sufficiently different to warrant a whole new Charm set.

The best answer I can come up with is "don't make the character a full-fledged Devil-Tiger unless you have something new to say." Ideally, a Devil-Tiger's themes should grow organically out of the character they used to be, but not all Infernal characters I've seen could do that. And it's not necessarily that they were bad characters; they just resembled their patrons a little too much.

Anyway. Would love to hear your thoughts on the matter, possibly even more than I'd like to see Elloge's Charms (as cool as that would be).

[Revlid]

I don't disagree with anything you say there per se, but what if the REASON you use Green Sun Nimbus Flare is because it's the green sun? If you're using it because it's itself, then that's the part you need to replicate, right?

I actually have a devil-tiger who has Ligier as an ally, and this is the reason she'll have GSNF under a different name in her charms.
She also has a massive crush for him, but that is neither here nor there.Malfeas doesn't have GSNF because he loves Ligier. He has GSNF because he loves smashing stuff with his supernal might, and his supernal might happens to express itself through green flame.

Consider the difference between:
"The green fires raging in his heart blight the very Essence of everything they touch, marking the world with his wrathful glory."

and, say:
"The (Primordial) wields her love as a weapon, using that which she delights in to scourge those who oppose her until they recognize its greatness."

[Revlid]

Let's say you're playing a Slayer favoring Kimbery; you are a faceless warrior wrapped from head to toe in a shell of verdigris and brass, dripping seawater and poison, one hand clutching a rune-graved sword. You've just hit Essence 6, your group is looking at Triumphant Howl of the Devil-Tiger and liking what it sees... but what are you going to do? Aesthetically speaking, you're a straightforward blend of Malfeas and Kimbery, brass and seawater and poison and all that jazz. What then? Are you supposed to abandon your old aesthetics?Aesthetics seem important, but I assure you that they are much less than everything when dealing with Yozi Charms. I'll get a bit ahead of myself here:

Almost every Yozi (current exceptions are She Who Lives in Her Name and sort-of-the-Ebon-Dragon) has two distinct major trees of Charms, aside from their General set, which defines their Primordial nature in its entirety. We might call these the Outward Tree and the Inward Tree. The Inward Tree describes the Yozi's physical nature. The Outward Tree describes how the Yozi understands the world.

For Malfeas, the Outward Tree starts with Insignificant Embers Intuition, and describes Malfeas' understanding of the world; all things are lesser than him, fit to be crushed beneath his heel, to obey him alone, to suffer incurable blights and searing pain for defying him. The Inward Tree starts with By Pain Reforged, and describes Malfeas' physical nature; he is a self-harming prison deadened to pain, a toughened thing of brass that needs no sustenance or pleasure and ignores others with ease. Note that, despite both dealing with Green Sun Wasting, Cold Fire Desolation Brand (those I strike down deserve incurable agony) and Blight Internalization Transcendence (that which does not kill me only makes me tougher) are in different trees.

Each Charm in a Yozi Charmset makes a statement that builds on its prerequisites - but not on any of the Charms before that, allowing for a great degree of thematic drift.

By Pain Reforged says "there are no pains greater than those I inflict upon myself". Nightmare Fugue Vigilance builds on that, and says "my own dreams are pain, so I shun them". Solipsistic Rejection of Impossibilities says "the opinions of others are merely dreams, so I ignore them".

Longer Charm trees have even greater thematic evolution. It's almost impossible to draw a direct link between, say, Insignificant Embers Intuition and The Green Mile, but work from Charm to Charm and you'll follow the chain of Yozi-logic fairly easily.

So among the first questions you need to ask about your Devil-Tiger is completely unrelated to aesthetics. How do they understand existence? How do they see the world? How do they think it works? Define and explain their viewpoint, in as exaggerated and unconditional a manner as possible.

Once you've got that, it's likely to inform a lot of your other decisions about the new Primordial, in the name of thematic coherence. Kimbery's physical nature as a poisonous sea ties directly into her understanding of existence, which leads her to be emotionally erratic (a trait associated with the sea and her manifestations throughout mythology) and metaphorically toxic in her relationships. Cecelyne's physical nature as a great desert sure does lend itself well to all the biblical prayer-hearing stuff that comes from her understanding of existence, doesn't it?

This is also the kind of stuff that shows up in the Excellency, a lot more than any aesthetics will. Note how Malfeas' green fires are only mentioned so the Excellency can talk about how he rages and blights things and possesses a wrathful glory? Those are the things an Infernal can use to enhance an action, not "made out of brass" or "is a city", so they're the important bits to put in there.

So I'd ask what your brass-coated poisonous swordsman thinks of the world, because that's vastly more important than the tools he uses... and the vast majority of Charms are little more than very fancy tools.


Furthermore, what if your character takes after your patrons closely enough that you can't think of a separate set of themes? You're not probably not exactly the same as your patrons, but close enough that their Charms can represent you, especially if you design a few Heretical charms that blend the two (and maybe another Yozi on occasion). You could maybe manage an Excellency of your own, but nothing you can come up with feels sufficiently different to warrant a whole new Charm set.Your answer is pretty much the one I'd go for. I've had at least one character who I never intended to take Devil-Tiger. Why would I? Everything she'd ever want to do was covered pretty well by the Malfeas Excellency. If she wanted immortality, she could just take the second purchase of (Yozi) Eternal Essence. There's nothing wrong with that at all. If I'd really pushed for it, I might have eked out some unique space for her Charmset, but why should she or I make the effort when we're never going to stop spending xp on existing Yozi Charms anyway?

Devil-Tiger's not the One True Build, after all. Sure, you get access to a new favoured Charmset and Caste power, but Infernals already have access to six Charmsets even before considering homebrew, and they've all got pretty good Caste powers to begin with. Those who don't bother to take that route are 27xp better off, even before you start getting into the later stuff like Urge-alteration.

[Lix Lorn]

Malfeas doesn't have GSNF because he loves Ligier. He has GSNF because he loves smashing stuff with his supernal might, and his supernal might happens to express itself through green flame.

Consider the difference between:
"The green fires raging in his heart blight the very Essence of everything they touch, marking the world with his wrathful glory."

and, say:
"The (Primordial) wields her love as a weapon, using that which she delights in to scourge those who oppose her until they recognize its greatness."
That... is an excellent point. But the manifestation of those two things as charms would be very, very similar wouldn't they? Although admittedly, they would have VERY different upgrade charms.

[Revlid]

That... is an excellent point. But the manifestation of those two things as charms would be very, very similar wouldn't they? Although admittedly, they would have VERY different upgrade charms.

PASSIONATE ANNIHILATION STRIKE
Cost: 3m per die; Mins: Essence 2; Type: Reflexive (Step 1)
Keywords: Combo-OK, Obvious
Duration: One tick
Prerequisite Charms: Tender Whisper Reaction
The Herp of Derp surrounds herself with her desires, so her enemies must first fend off her hopes and dreams, which scour them like an ephemeral flame. This Charm can be used to supplement any attack the Infernal makes, allowing her to choose a single positive intimacy she possesses and spend a number of motes equal to a maximum of three times her rating in the Virtue that most corresponds with that intimacy. That attack, and any others she makes that tick, deals one additional die of post-soak damage for every three motes spent.

Each attack enhanced by this Charm produces an immaterial anima-display that bears abstract, burning imagery suggestive of the chosen intimacy; characters who witness it may decipher the nature of the intimacy by making a reflexive read motivation roll. Those who also bear a similar positive intimacy (i.e. one toward the same subject) are immune to the effects of this Charm, though not the attack it enhances.
----------------
Or something. Use Ligier as your positive intimacy, and it would look almost identical to GSNF, but the effects and implications are quite different.

Then, as you note, very different thematic branches coming off GSNF and this Charm.

[Lix Lorn]

...well, I suppose I shall stop talking now. xD

[Xefas]

Devil-Tiger's not the One True Build, after all.

This is a good point, although I admit I'm on the fence about some other things you've said (and agree completely with some).

Do you have any ideas for a uniquely Infernal thing a Green Sun Prince could do that is mutually exclusive to building your own Charmset, but in the same magnitude of awesome and character-defining?

Hell, I'd just be happy to be able to do the cool stuff Devil Tigers get to do that have nothing to do with becoming your own titan, without having to become your own titan. For instance, say I'm a Slayer and I don't think the Slayer Caste is Malfean enough. "Where's my Melee/Performance/Craft/Resistance/Presence Caste Array!", I might shout, "Crossed swords? What? Why the hell isn't their a green sun emblem on my forehead!?". Maybe I want a place to hang out, and I don't think the Demon City is metal enough. Where's my Spirit of the Living World? Why can I not create new Acts of Villainy, also styled after Malfeas? I think Malfeas has room for different kinds of villainy. Why can I not eat my own Coadjutor, and decide that I am Malfean enough to decide my own Malfeasness thank you very much, I don't need Malfeas to Urge me to be Malfeas, because I am already so Malfeas that Malfeas looks at me and goes "Daaaaaaamn".

I guess it seems to me like "Triumphant Howl of the Devil Tiger" sort of became the "This can be a prerequisite to justify any charm that messes with being an Infernal Exalted, even if the thing you're messing with has nothing to do with what the charm actually does." Which is fine, unless you want to mess with being an Infernal, but don't want to be your own titan. Maybe we need more and different Charms that serve as a "This is a prerequisite for stuff that faffs about with your soul and Exaltation".

[Amechra]

May I request the above? Maybe under the name of Becoming-Unto-[Yozi] Understanding?

[The_Snark]

Aesthetics seem important, but I assure you that they are much less than everything when dealing with Yozi Charms. I'll get a bit ahead of myself here:

*snip*

Speaking as someone who's looking at designing a Devil-Tiger soon, this is very helpful stuff. Thanks!

I'd noticed some of the same things about the way Yozi Charm trees were constructed, but I hadn't categorized them, or noticed the step-by-step nature. I'm not sure how well it holds up—the line between Inward and Outward trees can get pretty blurry, especially when you start comparing different Yozis or looking at the Yozis that break rules—but at the very least it sounds like a promising guideline for designing new Charm sets.

Letting the aesthetics follow from the themes makes sense. I had always thought of them as something that you should have an idea of from the beginning, but I think this'll work a lot better.

[Lix Lorn]

This is a good point, although I admit I'm on the fence about some other things you've said (and agree completely with some).

Do you have any ideas for a uniquely Infernal thing a Green Sun Prince could do that is mutually exclusive to building your own Charmset, but in the same magnitude of awesome and character-defining?

Hell, I'd just be happy to be able to do the cool stuff Devil Tigers get to do that have nothing to do with becoming your own titan, without having to become your own titan. For instance, say I'm a Slayer and I don't think the Slayer Caste is Malfean enough. "Where's my Melee/Performance/Craft/Resistance/Presence Caste Array!", I might shout, "Crossed swords? What? Why the hell isn't their a green sun emblem on my forehead!?". Maybe I want a place to hang out, and I don't think the Demon City is metal enough. Where's my Spirit of the Living World? Why can I not create new Acts of Villainy, also styled after Malfeas? I think Malfeas has room for different kinds of villainy. Why can I not eat my own Coadjutor, and decide that I am Malfean enough to decide my own Malfeasness thank you very much, I don't need Malfeas to Urge me to be Malfeas, because I am already so Malfeas that Malfeas looks at me and goes "Daaaaaaamn".

I guess it seems to me like "Triumphant Howl of the Devil Tiger" sort of became the "This can be a prerequisite to justify any charm that messes with being an Infernal Exalted, even if the thing you're messing with has nothing to do with what the charm actually does." Which is fine, unless you want to mess with being an Infernal, but don't want to be your own titan. Maybe we need more and different Charms that serve as a "This is a prerequisite for stuff that faffs about with your soul and Exaltation".
...I love this post and everything in it.

[Lea Plath]

I'm looking for a flashy charm for punching.

My character is a martial arts master who started life as a fire work maker. As such, his anima is that of a firework display.

I'm looking for something to improve his basic punches and give off a big flashy burst, which has some crunch effect.

Thanks ^^

[Lix Lorn]

What type of exalt are you? Solar?

[The_Snark]

I guess it seems to me like "Triumphant Howl of the Devil Tiger" sort of became the "This can be a prerequisite to justify any charm that messes with being an Infernal Exalted, even if the thing you're messing with has nothing to do with what the charm actually does." Which is fine, unless you want to mess with being an Infernal, but don't want to be your own titan. Maybe we need more and different Charms that serve as a "This is a prerequisite for stuff that faffs about with your soul and Exaltation".

... interesting point. I think some of the Devil-Tiger tree properly belongs there (redesigning your Caste and spawning your own demons feel like natural steps in the process of becoming a new Yozi/Primordial/thing), but others not so much. No reason Spirit of the Living World shouldn't be its own thing, and Face of the Titans and Dance of the Thrashing Dragon seem like they'd fit better with Swallowing the Scorpion as a prerequisite...


Do you have any ideas for a uniquely Infernal thing a Green Sun Prince could do that is mutually exclusive to building your own Charmset, but in the same magnitude of awesome and character-defining?

Also this. I actually think regular old Yozi Charms (and blended-Yozi Heretical Charms) are pretty awesome as-is, but on the off someone does have an idea like this I'd love to hear it.

[Pennance]

Do you have any ideas for a uniquely Infernal thing a Green Sun Prince could do that is mutually exclusive to building your own Charmset, but in the same magnitude of awesome and character-defining?

Are...are you talking about the charms that the Yozi have which makes them Primordial, and is fundamentally exclusive to the Heretical keyword? It's on the same scope, but makes you an NPC so I'll go and assume you don't mean that. In which case, I'm useless. But very interested to see what our ringleader here has to say about it.

As a side note, I was just reading the Book of Ten Thousand Scorpions (your links are as catchy as TV Tropes) and the Adorjan charms related to children mentioned using Linguistics and then something in me remembered you mentioning you're working on Elloge charms (oh please god let it be so) and I thought about how thematically elegant the Heresies of those two trees must be.

I talked to my friend about it and he called them the "Don't talk in the Library" charms, which is a fair jab. But I would love to hear your thoughts on how they might combine aesthetically if nothing else, since I wouldn't make you start hybridizing before you've finished your initial project (did I convey my enthusiasm for this if you need help even just cross-referencing and compiling notes or anything please let me know) but yes. Anyway.

I approve of this entire thread.