Is a Changeling Warshaper really that cheesy?

[Rossebay]

My second character ever was a changeling warshaper. I put the build together from the races PDF from Crystalkeep and Complete warrior back when we only had around 5 books.

What I'm getting at is that it isn't a complex book or a difficult leap to make. I had fun with it. My DM even let me change my arms into real weapons instead of natural weapons, so I was walking around with a couple of longswords as arms. (Fluffed as bone weapons, but the point still stands.)

The strength and con bonuses were a welcome adjustment, the increased reach was a big boon, and by level 8 I had fast healing.

But I keep seeing that people think a Changeling entry to Warshaper is cheesy. I think it makes sense. It's a changeling who has refined his ability to take on other forms, making the claws he gains useful and making himself able to move skin, arteries, and broken bones back into place.

So, is it really that cheesy?

[Aeryr]

Warshaper only lasts will the warshaper is not in its natural form, so changeling always has warshaper on. That is good.

Warshaper doesn't have a limit on the natural weapons that you can get, you are mostly limited by your imagination. It is also limited by the time that you can spend in your alternate form (creating natural attacks takes time), but changeling can stay on an alternate form for ever. That is good.

Extremly cheesy? Not in my opinion (unless you are going 10000000 tentacle attacks) it is just really good being a changeling, up to the point that any melee changeling should consider warshaper. Overall it feels like warshaper was inted for polimorphers-wild shapers that lost spellcasting progresion taking that PrC so a melee character without loosing spellcasting profits more from it.

[Axier]

I still don't see how a minor physical alteration should give you that much power, so yea, I have a problem with Changling Warshaper. Is it RAW, shure; but I much prefer Hengeyokai entry anyway, since it is now LA 0.

I would never allow it in my campagin (too many fluf issues), but I cant call it to terribly cheesy when there is another LA 0 race that DEFINITLY qualifies for it. You can't call one cheesy without calling the other one, that you cant call cheesy, ya' know?

Also, immunity to crits and stun!

Edit P.S. If someone can convince me that Alter *Disguise* Self should qualify for this class (not RAW, because it definatly is RAW), I would appreciate it, because I don't see it.

[Heliomance]

Warshaper only lasts will the warshaper is not in its natural form, so changeling always has warshaper on. That is good.

Warshaper doesn't have a limit on the natural weapons that you can get, you are mostly limited by your imagination. It is also limited by the time that you can spend in your alternate form (creating natural attacks takes time), but changeling can stay on an alternate form for ever. That is good.

That's a very questionable interpretation. RAI is clearly that you can gain one extra natural weapon, and RAW is unclear either way.

Does Changeling even qualify? I thought their shapeshifting mimicked Disguise Self, not Alter Self.

[gkathellar]

It doesn't matter if it would be cheesy, since it's not legal. Changeling shapeshifting is based on Disguise Self, not Alter Self, which would be crazy powerful.


Does Changeling even qualify? I thought their shapeshifting mimicked Disguise Self, not Alter Self.

That is correct.


Also, immunity to crits and stun!

Not actually a huge deal.


Edit P.S. If someone can convince me that Alter Self should qualify for this class (not RAW, because it definatly is RAW), I would appreciate it, because I don't see it.

Alter Self allows for some pretty extreme changes, and they're genuine physical modifications. Clever use of Alter Self lets you fly, swim, burrow, climb, get natural weapons and natural armor, and secure significant bonuses to skills. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=343.0) It's pretty straightforwardly true shapeshifting, and should qualify for Warshaper.

[Axier]

Yea, Changeling uses Disguise self, not Alter Self, I get them confused, and Disguise Self does none of this, the only difference between a Changling's Disguise Self is that it isn't an illusion.

Disguise Self does minor changes, like a foot taller or a foot smaller, and physical outward appearance.

[Callos_DeTerran]

It is legal actually, though only in the strictest sense of the word. The requirement for Warshaper, or at least one of the possible ones, is to have the change shape ability...which changelings do have (albeit a 'minor' version). As for fluffwise...I honestly believe it fits there too. The changeling's ability to shift it's it's appearance is an actual change, not just an illusion, warshaper would just be a changeling deciding to focus on and hone their natural gifts.

That, and the combination is just fun.

[2xMachina]

IIRC, the shapechanger subtype qualifies them.

EDIT: It doesn't matter how they change their form. Not natural form + Warshaper = Get benefits.

[lord_khaine]

IIRC, the shapechanger subtype qualifies them.

It does indeed, i just looked it up.

Also, i dont see where the stuff about "needing to be in a different form" comes from, the rules clearly say that the Warshaper gets the benefits of the class, no matter what shape she should stay in.

So, to answer the OP, no, there is nothing wrong with doing this, though you might also want to considder using a shifter, who as i recall also qualify for the prestice class.

[Elric VIII]

2xMachina is correct, they are Humanoid (shapechanger). That subtype is one of the possible prerequisites. It's just like if a Doppleganger wished to take levels in this class.

Plus, Changelings don't actually use Disguise Self (an illusion spell), they only use the rules for it when adjudicating possible physical changes.


Changelings have the supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not their possessions. This ability is not an illusory effect but a minor physical alteration of a changeling’s facial features, skin color and texture, and size, within the limits described for the spell.

The use of Disguise Self in the example is for the purpose of showing what effects are possible. This is exactly the wording of the errata for the Druid's Thousand Faces, as well. So there really is no bending of the rules in the least.

[Aeryr]

In order to become a warshaper a character has to have, change shape supernatural ability or shapechanger subtype or polymorph as a spell-like ability or capacity to cast polymorph or wild shape class feature. It is specified that the alternate form is insuficient.

Also the changelings ability is a physical alteration.

Finally I read the word "weapons" as plural, maybe it is cause english is not my native language but as I read it you can get more than one singular weapon with it. But I do understand that the number of weapons should be something clarified between the DM and the PC.

Ps. The warshaper has a clause under class features: this class features function when the warshaper is in a form other than her own.

[IdleMuse]

It does indeed, i just looked it up.

Also, i dont see where the stuff about "needing to be in a different form" comes from, the rules clearly say that the Warshaper gets the benefits of the class, no matter what shape she should stay in.

This is a direct quote from the book: All of the following are class features of the warshaper prestige class. The class features function only when the warshaper is in a form other than her own.

[lord_khaine]

Oh yeah, fair enough, i guess i should have read the entire entry, instead of just the seperate class features then.

[Salanmander]

So, here's where I'm unclear on changeling + warshaper. I know that it qualifies, due to the shapechanger subtype. However, I'm not entirely clear on whether the changeling's alterations count as being other than the changeling's natural form. Could someone point out where in the rules it states (or implies) that that is the case? (For example, do changelings revert to a natural form on death, or so forth?)

[Snowbluff]

That's a very questionable interpretation. RAI is clearly that you can gain one extra natural weapon, and RAW is unclear either way.

Does Changeling even qualify? I thought their shapeshifting mimicked Disguise Self, not Alter Self.

Yeah, it seems like it's telling you "You either gain a tentacle, or if you already have one, make it bigger." That's how I rule it.

[Elric VIII]

So, here's where I'm unclear on changeling + warshaper. I know that it qualifies, due to the shapechanger subtype. However, I'm not entirely clear on whether the changeling's alterations count as being other than the changeling's natural form. Could someone point out where in the rules it states (or implies) that that is the case? (For example, do changelings revert to a natural form on death, or so forth?)

From Races of Eberron, the Changelling entry:


Changelings have the supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not their possessions. This ability is not an illusory effect but a minor physical alteration of a changeling’s facial features, skin color and texture, and size, within the limits described for the spell. A changeling can use this ability at will, and the alteration lasts until he changes shape again. A changeling reverts to his natural form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals his natural form. When using this ability to create a disguise, a changeling receives a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. Using this ability is a full-round action.

Emphasis, mine.

[Gotterdammerung]

I would say it is cheasy.

Spend 1 move action to get a claw.

Spend 4 more move actions to make it a colossal damage claw.

Spend 1 move action to get a claw.

Spend 4 more move actions to make it a colossal damage claw.

Spend 1 move action to get horns.

Spend 4 more move actions to make it a colossal damage horns.

Spend 1 move action to get a tail slap.

Spend 4 more move actions to make it a colossal damage tail slap.

Spend 1 move action to get a bite.

Spend 4 more move actions to make it a colossal damage bite.

Spend 1 move action to get a wing buffet.

Spend 4 more move actions to make it a colossal damage wing buffet.

Spend 1 move action to get a tentacle attack.

Spend 4 more move actions to make it a colossal damage tentacle attack.

Repeat for as many tentacles as your DM will allow on your body.



Changling does qualify even with the lesser version of change shape.

And because it has no duration he can prep buff all these attacks early on and keep them as long as he wants.

Because there is no limit on the number of times morphic weapons can be used, and because once used the new natural attacks become part of the new form, a changling warshaper can repeatedly use morphic weapons to both create and then resize as many natural attacks as his GM will allow.

[charcoalninja]

Eh, still doesn't push a warshaper to or past tier 3 so I don't see the problem. Prevent the guy from full attacking and he's nothing. Even if he's a hecatoncares there's still a slew of different ways to negate him, plus the sheer functional necessity of moving around and adventuring will limit how many attacks he can have up at a given time.

I don't see it being a problem at all and I would say it is awesome, not cheesy.

[Elric VIII]

I would say it is cheasy.

Spend 1 move action to get a claw.

Spend 4 more move actions to make it a colossal damage claw.

Spend 1 move action to get a claw.

Spend 4 more move actions to make it a colossal damage claw.

Spend 1 move action to get horns.

Spend 4 more move actions to make it a colossal damage horns.

Spend 1 move action to get a tail slap.

Spend 4 more move actions to make it a colossal damage tail slap.

Spend 1 move action to get a bite.

Spend 4 more move actions to make it a colossal damage bite.

Spend 1 move action to get a wing buffet.

Spend 4 more move actions to make it a colossal damage wing buffet.

Spend 1 move action to get a tentacle attack.

Spend 4 more move actions to make it a colossal damage tentacle attack.

Repeat for as many tentacles as your DM will allow on your body.



Changling does qualify even with the lesser version of change shape.

And because it has no duration he can prep buff all these attacks early on and keep them as long as he wants.

Because there is no limit on the number of times morphic weapons can be used, and because once used the new natural attacks become part of the new form, a changling warshaper can repeatedly use morphic weapons to both create and then resize as many natural attacks as his GM will allow.

That's exactly why ever playing a Kobold ever is also cheesy.

[Treblain]

A Changeling warshaper is not overpowered, but it's certainly cheesy. It uses a rules exploit to turn situational benefits into always-on benefits, while making it easier to qualify for something that normally has a significant opportunity cost.

It's exactly as cheesy as DMM: Persist on Divine Power, which also takes a powerful situational benefit and makes it always-on while reducing the normally-high cost that would make it a less viable choice.

[Elric VIII]

A Changeling warshaper is not overpowered, but it's certainly cheesy. It uses a rules exploit to turn situational benefits into always-on benefits, while making it easier to qualify for something that normally has a significant opportunity cost.

It's exactly as cheesy as DMM: Persist on Divine Power, which also takes a powerful situational benefit and makes it always-on while reducing the normally-high cost that would make it a less viable choice.

Actually, something like that is exactly what is intended. The class description says it is mostly for Dopplegangers and Lycanthropes (i.e. things that can have the features always on), but says that Wizards/Sorcerers/Druids can also qualify.

[Kalmageddon]

I don't think it's cheesy if one tries to apply some common sense to it...
I actually really like the idea of a changeling monk that uses this! Even if the unarmed damage wouldn't benefit.

Obviously one should consider giving some limits to the abilities of a Warshaper, like for example: how can you make your claw attack colossal size and still be able to use it when the rest of your body is still medium size? You would look ridicolous, like a big clawed hand with a small body attached to it!

[Andorax]

Flipping back and forth between singular and plural makes reading the section difficult, and interpreting it even harder, but here's the jist of it.

"Morphic Weapons (Su): As a move action, a warshaper can grow natural weapons such as claws or fangs, allowing a natural attack that deals the appropriate amount of damage..."

"These morphic weapons need not be natural weapons that the creature already possesses."

"...a warshaper polymorphed into an ettin (Large giant) could grow a claw that deals 1d6 points of damage, or horns for a gore attack that deals 1d8 points of damage."

"If a warshaper's form already has a natural weapon of that type, the weapon deals damage as if it were one category larger."


Two things are at issue here.

1) Does Warshaper allow you to grow multiple natural weapons that are usable for multiple natural attacks (a claw, claw, bite routine for example)?

2) Can you stack the size increases on itself?


As to the first, green examples seem to imply yes, red examples seem to imply no. There would appear to be enough confusion on the matter that, for sake of both reason and balance, I'd adjucate it as no every time. Heck, even the picture of the warshaper is using sword and claw, not two claws and four gigantic tentacles, so I'd say intent is implied as well, in both the picture and the example given (heck, it even uses an Ettin for the example, but only suggest ONE gore attack).


As to the second, the wording (to my reading) seems to intend that you can only stack the size-up onto a weapon that the base form you're already in has...not stacking on itself.

Can a Changeling qualify? Obviously. Is it cheesy? Only if the class itself is inherently cheesy, which seems to require an intentionally outrageous interpretation of the rules who's intent seems perfectly clear.

Personally? Now that it's been brought up, I'm already toying with ideas for a Changeling Warshaper/Kensai.

[dextercorvia]

You can only grow one at at time, and only one of each type (Since, if you try to grow a claw, it checks to see if you already have a claw attack). The size increase doesn't stack, since multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack, and this is an Su ability.

[Elric VIII]

You can solve those problems by playing a Totemist as the base and improving his natural weapons.

Just imagine a Changeling Totemist 4/Warblade 1/Warshaper 5.

[Gotterdammerung]

The size increase doesn't stack, since multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack, and this is an Su ability.

You can not use that restriction here because it is not an actual size increase.

It deals damage as if it were one size category larger, it is not actually one size category larger.

So you don't have to worry about being 5'2" with bloated hands the size of trucks.




1) Does Warshaper allow you to grow multiple natural weapons that are usable for multiple natural attacks (a claw, claw, bite routine for example)?

2) Can you stack the size increases on itself?


#1 yes it does allow you to grow multiple attacks. The ability has no times per day limit. It only requires a move action. If you use the move action you get the effect. The effect lasts for as long as you can stay in the alternate form. The examples given can not be used to exclude massive amount of natural attacks, because they are just examples of what one might do. They are not limitations on what one can do. That is what the rules part of the text is for. When you refer to the rules part, there is no limit on the number of NA's you can achieve (although most GMs will step in and impose a limit, how do u fit 100000000000 tentacles on a medium creature, right?).

#2 yes you can stack the size increases, partly because they are not actually size increases, and partly because of the wording.

Let's break it down.

Step 1: you use change shape to change into Raffi, the lovable childrens singer/songwriter.

Step 2: you spend a move action to use morphic weapons to give raffi a bite attack, i don't feel like looking up the damage for a medium creature bite so lets say it does 1d8 dmg. At this point you check to see if Raffi already had a bite attack. He doesn't so you just gain a normal 1d8 bite attack on your form of the Raffi.

Step 3: you spend a move action to use morphic weapons to give raffi a bite attack. At this point you check to see if form of the Raffi has a bite attack. It does have a bite attack. So this bite attack now does damage as if it were one size category larger. It is now a 2d6 bite attack.

Step 4:you spend a move action to use morphic weapons to give raffi a bite attack. At this point you check to see if form of the Raffi has a bite attack. It does have a bite attack. You now check the damage on form of Raffi's bite attack. It does 2d6 damage. The ability now states it does damage as if one size category larger. one size larger than 2d6 is 3d6.

step 5 continue.

Because there are not actually size increases happening there is not actually a limit to the damage bumps. except the cap on natural attack damage.

1d2,1d3,1d4,1d6,1d8,and 2d6 base damage NA's can be pushed up to a maximum of 12d6 damage.

And 1d10 base damage NA's can be pushed up to 12d8 damage.



Ok so why does this work?

#1 once the damage boost happens it is done. The new forms base damage becomes the new boosted damage. This allows for repeated boosting.

#2 changing the Natural attacks and boosting the damage of the natural attacks changes the alternate form. These new additions become part of the alternate form. This allows iterative uses of Morphic weapons to build upon the old uses.

#3 the changes are instantaneous. They alter the base effect of the ability that gave you the alternate form. But each time morphic weapons is used, the alternate form is altered and then resolved. So there is no residual effect to stop multiple uses of morphic weapons from stacking.

For instance, the wild shape dire wolf example, after the resolution of the morphic weapons ability she is a dire wolf with a bite that does 2d6 damage. She was given a boost to base damage. The boost was equal to 1 size category increase but was not actually a size category increase. The boost resolved. She now has a 2d6 bite. When she uses Morphic weapons again she is a wolf with a 2d6 bite that gets a boost to base damage equal to 1 size category increase, resulting in a 3d6 bite. When that morphic weapons resolves she will be a dire wolf with a 3d6 bite.





Now some of you might be saying "WAIT WAIT WAIT whats all this about gaining a size but not actually gaining a size!? Thats HULLABALOO! Theres not precedent for something as ridiculous as that in this game!"

I would like to refer you as an example, to the feat on page 304 of the monster manual.

Improved natural attack.

This feat also has the exact same "as if it were one size category larger" clause.

So does this feat actually make you have sofa sized hamhocks?

No, no it does not. This feat is a perfect example of gaining a damage boost equal to a size increase but NOT actually gaining a size increase.

The feat lets us know there was no actual size increase involved
with this sentence.
"This creatures natural attacks are more dangerous than it's size and type would otherwise dictate."

And with the "as if" clause. It does not say "this creatures natural attack gain an increase in size". And neither does Morphic weapons.





Eh, still doesn't push a warshaper to or past tier 3 so I don't see the problem. Prevent the guy from full attacking and he's nothing. Even if he's a hecatoncares there's still a slew of different ways to negate him, plus the sheer functional necessity of moving around and adventuring will limit how many attacks he can have up at a given time.

I don't see it being a problem at all and I would say it is awesome, not cheesy.

Ok first, this whole "having a million natural weapons makes you look like a freak so isn't functional in town and stuff" logic train is not a big deal.

A simple cheap hat of disguise will allow you to walk around looking perfectly normal. You are likely to have a way above average disguise roll.
What about true seeing, you ask?
Well, anyone who has true seeing would see your true form and they would know you are just a changeling and not some freakish monster, so you don't need to hide your appearance from true seeing peeeple.


Secondly, I don't think you realize how low of a character resource investment this glitch takes. Your only commited to 3 levels of the prestige class. You can enter at 5th with means you can be in and out by 7th lvl ready to take your 8th lvl in whatever you want.

If you don't want to get in that fast, you can take 4 levels of a medium bab class and 1 lvl of a good bab class.

This leaves so many wonderful combinations to play with for your early levels. and you still have 12-13 levels left to play with.

By the end of a 20th level build you can find a way to guarantee your full attack.

The possibilities are pretty broad just because of the massive lack of character resources to pull this off. all you need is a +4 bab and you only actually need ONE level of the prestige class.

You can be a ToB character for 19 lvls and a warshaper for 1 lvl if you want.

You can be a mystic ranger for 19 lvls and a warshaper for 1 lvl if you want.

The 2nd lvl of the prestige gives u +4 str and +4 con

The 3rd lvl of the prestige gives you a 5 foot reach increase.

These are nice but you don't have to take them if you think you have found something better.


So a 1 lvl dip in a prestige class that you only need a +4 bab to enter if your a changeling, results in a massive number of attacks that hit for massive amounts of dice damage. And you think that is on a tier 3 lvl? You think it's "awesome" but not "cheesy"? Hmmm.... I think it's both.

[Snowbluff]

You can not use that restriction here because it is not an actual size increase.

It deals damage as if it were one size category larger, it is not actually one size category larger.



Wait, no it's the same benefit from the same ability. It doesn't stack, right? It doesn't matter what if the benefit is untyped, you can't stack a Su with itself, right? :smallconfused:

The only precedent I can think of is Consumptive field... I guess I would allow this.

Psywarrior does a pretty good job at what Warshaper accomplishes, without having to sacrifice its Psionics. I think Egoist can do the same things quite easily...

[dextercorvia]

You can not use that restriction here because it is not an actual size increase.

It deals damage as if it were one size category larger, it is not actually one size category larger.

So you don't have to worry about being 5'2" with bloated hands the size of trucks.


Actually if you read the full text it refers to growing to the larger size. But that aside, if you read it as not actually increasing the size, then you have to answer the question as if it were one category larger than what? The only answer in the text is the size of the weapon attached to the body.

[Coidzor]

Only if he can get infinite natural weapons, as far as I can tell.

[Hybrid Monkey D]

Well, I'm probably wrong on this, but wouldn't you be limited to only 1 natural attack of each type? I mean, if you already had a claw attack and attempted to morph a new one, it would then just make the original do more damage, right? That is what it says, right?

And although you could say that you morph in 100 different natural attacks, wouldn't you have to provide the appropriate damage for them, as the feature says? Wouldn't trying to create a natural attack that doesn't already exist be just like trying to take a weapon proficiency feat in a weapon that doesn't exist? Can you even do that? You'd have to ask your DM for the appropriate damage of any natural weapon that doesn't already have a listed value, right? So, really, you'd have to ask your DM to be able to increase your limit of possible natural attacks past the dozen or so listen in the different books, right?

Also, on the weapon size thing, it does say to treat it as if it were one category larger for damage, but that just means one step, and doesn't actually change the size. So, if you did the increase to medium claws (1d4), it'd be treated as large claws (1d6). And if you did it again, you'd still just be adjusting medium claws (as they are still medium claws) to deal the damage of large claws, wouldn't you? I could say that I'm going to make these medium claws do the damage of claws one size larger do, and I could say that twenty times, but they'd still only do the damage of claws one size larger than medium, yea?

[DaragosKitsune]

At this point you check to see if form of the Raffi has a bite attack. It does have a bite attack. So this bite attack now does damage as if it were one size category larger. It is now a 2d6 bite attack.


The problem is, the ability states that you check the base transformation for the attack type. In the example given, the ability is used on a natural weapon possessed by the form in use already. This implies that the ability can be used to grow a natural weapon that your chosen form does not naturally possess or to strengthen one that it does. In your given example, the base transformation is an ordinary human. That means that you could increase the damage on your unarmed strike (which all humans have) but not the bite attack (which humans do not have by default).

As to the OP's question, yes it is a cheesy way to enter. However, the resulting build isn't overly cheesy in of itself.

Slightly off-topic: Does anyone else think that a Changeling Warshaper/Soul Eater would be a good way to represent ZEUS from Prototype?

[Gotterdammerung]

The problem is, the ability states that you check the base transformation for the attack type.

Where does it say that? Oh, right it doesn't. It just says plain ole normal form, it doesn't say "base form".










~Raffi's gonna fix it with his tentacle, Raffi's gonna fix it with his tentacle~

[Rossebay]

Slightly off-topic: Does anyone else think that a Changeling Warshaper/Soul Eater would be a good way to represent ZEUS from Prototype?

This was my inspiration. I chose one form that I preferred, and I just ran around with my weapons (longswords or claws), and smashed face. When I finally got reach and fast healing, and I laid power attack into everything, it just felt right, haha.

And my DM let me Climb and Burrow when I felt like it, so it was very cool. Oh, and I could glide by creating wings. Never could fly, but it was still very cool.

[eclipsic]

Actually if you read the full text it refers to growing to the larger size. But that aside, if you read it as not actually increasing the size, then you have to answer the question as if it were one category larger than what? The only answer in the text is the size of the weapon attached to the body.

Was just about to chime in with this. Seems to pretty well put a stop to the infinitely-enhanced damage.