Tarquin's Plot

[martianmister]

From what I get from comic, Tarquin is someone who kills (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html) for fun (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0778.html) (like Xykon) and only cares for Elan for his twisted obsesssion with stories and literary devices (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0751.html). But according to Rich:


RICH: "...Because here you have Tarquin, for most of the first part of the story, is evil, is just straight up evil. But he loves his son. He cares about family. He likes his empire running orderly. He doesn't just sort of go around slaughtering people for kicks. He has a plan, he has a goal, which he's sort of executing step by step. He's not Xykon. He's not this sort of crazy force of evil..."

What do you think about this?

[LadyEowyn]

My reading is that Tarquin may actually care for Elan (although after seeing him decide to work with Nale and the Linear Guild, who he knows want Elan dead, I'm not sure how much of that was a front) and Rich's comments mainly signify that he's Lawful Evil compared to Xykon's Chaotic Evil.

He has a long-term plan - retain power for as long as possible, and fame after he's defeated - and he's strategic. It's not so much that he kills people for fun as that he's utterly without conscience and doesn't seem to regard people who he isn't close to as being people at all, so murdering a bunch of them as a display of love to his son doesn't feel at all inconsistent to him. Most of his "rule with an iron fist" activities are in service of a goal - staying in power and in control of the Empire of Blood through maintaining the population in such a state of both fear and complacency that they choose not to resist.

Killing people is not in and of itself his objective, which differentiates him from Xykon or Belkar. But he also doesn't have any problem killing them to achieve other objectives, no matter how trivial.

[Caivs]

Tarquin DOESN'T kill for fun, at least that's how I'm interpreting it. In the first example you posted, the way he killed them had two purposes: (1) made an ideal lightshow for Elan and (2)Sent a message to the slaves aka if you try to escape, you're burned litterally. It was technically ''justice'', like the romans who crucified the slaves during Spartacus' revolt (And in many other occurences). Whoever ordered them crucified (In case of Spartacus I don't remember whether it was Crassus or Pompey but anyway) didn't do them by pleasure, he did them because it was what waited slaves who rebel against their masters. As Tarquin said later, an empire is maintained by intimidation. He knows that. In the second example, it's even easier to explain. The aim of the gladiatorial games is to make the people forget about the tyranny oppressing them, that's the essence of bread and circus. Now, what you need for that are impressive death scenes. I guess you can figure out the rest.

Compare his reaction to what Xykon would have done when, per instance, Belkar released the allosaurus once again to save the bounty hunters. Xykon would have been ''heh, it's actually pretty funny. hahahaha, that one just got cut in two by its teeth. screw it don't have it go back in its cage'' while Tarquin was angry at the loss of soldiers, and that it cut a dramatically remarkable death with something that had been used a few rounds ago.

Seriously, just reread a few strips with Tarquin. He's not like Xykon. He wants to forge a strong and powerful empire, Xykon would destroy it. He initially wanted to simply enjoy his time and have fun living in luxure holding a country in his fist while remaining unknown untill he gets killed/dies of old age.His latter meeting with Elan gave him the idea of writing the most awesome story ever, even if it ends with his failure. Xykon would never accept failure, he wants to win at all costs to avoid the big fire below. If he was killed, I don't think he'd say ''Well, at least I had a good time, unlife was nice''.

Tarquin is, indeed, as the Giant said, a villain who murders while being conducted by a goal, and who isn't unhuman. He still has feelings. In history there were many tyrants who still loved their wives and family, Tarquin is just like them (Well, minus the fact most of these historical tyrants wanted to be the center of attention, while those who, like Tarquin, didn't care ended in the most part unknown by history)

[factotum]

I agree with everything Caivs said. There is not a scrap of evidence that Tarquin kills for fun--when he kills, it's far more purposeful and directed than that. I also don't think Tarquin only loves Elan due to some sort of twisted literary obsession, either. He sees him as a far better bet to take over running the Empire than Nale, true, but anyone with a functioning brain would realise that Nale would be useless at that role, and Tarquin hasn't known Elan long enough to know that the same applies to him!

[FujinAkari]

There is no indiciation that Tarquin kills for fun. Both of those are public executions meant to send a message and entertain the masses, Tarquin didn't have Enor and Ganji murdered, he had them used to further his ends.

Tarquin certainly does not cherish human life, but he doesn't enjoy killing either, it is just a tool for him.

[LadyEowyn]

He didn't have Enor and Ganji murdered because that wasn't painful enough. He found a method of killing them that caused maximum emotional trauma (as revenge for a minor-to-non-existent offense), and that could also amuse the populace.

Having a larger plan doesn't mean he can't be flat-out sadistic as well.

[Roland Itiative]

Since the "kill for fun" argument has already been brought down, I'd like to adress the "loves his son only because of his heroic role". That also doesn't seem to be the case. Look at Nale, for instance. Back in 822 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html), Tarquin didn't relly have any more reason to stall Malack's revenge. He had already gotten all the info he could out of Nale, and it's not like Nale's a great asset to have on your side. I see Tarquin's little sermon to Malack there as a show he doesn't want his kids dead, even if both of them antagonize him. The whole "good cop, bad cop" routine beforehand seemed like Tarquin manipulating both Nale and Malack, while he never intended to let Malack have his way.

[Goosefarble]

(In case of Spartacus I don't remember whether it was Crassus or Pompey but anyway)

What? You mean that half-elf? :confused:

(Joke, I know who Pompey was)

But yeah, everyone's pretty much said it in the thread already, but Tarquin's not a Xykon figure who kills for boredom. He is trying not only to make his life cushy and comfortable on the top of the food chain, but he's also trying to bring order and stability to the continent with his whole "absorb everything into three giant nations and never have conflict again" pitch. Sure, you might argue that he can't care that much about no conflict if he's prepared to invade cities he's supposed to be allied to, but he is, in the long run, trying to forge a working empire out of the messed up politics of the Western Continent. Again, that doesn't stop him from being an evil man, but there's a difference between Tarquin evil and Xykon evil.

[ScubaGoomba]

Sounds like the Giant is implying a Doctor Doom feel to Tarquin, at least in his approach to leading his people and maintaining a stable civilization. He's an evil guy, demonstrated through his methods, but his desire to keep some stability tempers this. Also, like Doom, he's got a bit of a snag that prevents him from simply sitting back and being a tyrant to his people; for Doom, we have Reed Richards, and for Tarquin, we've got a flair for the dramatic.

[rbetieh]

I think what we really want is a clearer picture of his motivations. "I want to be rich and powerful" doesn't gel in my mind as what he is really after. My closest guess is to gleam what I can from Nale, who was raised by Tarquin. It seems to me that Nales true motivation has always been "I have something to prove to my father", and I would bet that deep down, Tarquin is also running on the "Something to prove" motivation. I continue to maintain this has something to do with Elans mom, and seeing as though Elan reminds him of his mother in some ways, it might have been transferred to Elan. But hey, this whole joining the LG thing is a chance to spend time with both of his sons at the same time.

[Gift Jeraff]

I think Tarquin does genuinely love his sons, just in a very twisted and evil way which seems alien to us. Evil Love, basically. Similar to how Nale and Sabine seem to be genuinely in love, but their love involves cannibalism, sacrifice, and sex on corpses. (Well, I think Sabine truly loves Nale, but I'm not sure if Nale actually loves Sabine.) Tarquin's love involves torturing people as gifts, forcing his heroic son to angst about killing him, throwing a dagger at his villainous son, and so on.

[Particle_Man]

Seriously, just reread a few strips with Tarquin. He's not like Xykon. He wants to forge a strong and powerful empire, Xykon would destroy it. He initially wanted to simply enjoy his time and have fun living in luxure holding a country in his fist while remaining unknown untill he gets killed/dies of old age.His latter meeting with Elan gave him the idea of writing the most awesome story ever, even if it ends with his failure. Xykon would never accept failure, he wants to win at all costs to avoid the big fire below. If he was killed, I don't think he'd say ''Well, at least I had a good time, unlife was nice''.

Actually Xykon did say pretty much that when it almost looked like he and Redcloak were going to die in Azure City before Miko destroyed the gate and inadvertently saved them.

I think Tarquin's motive is narrative - he wants to become a legend. His battle with Elan will thus be along narrative lines (almost like how the Fair Folk battle in Exalted, I guess). Nale is a disappointment because he doesn't "play ball", Elan is the "cool" son that "gets it". But good or evil is not how he judges his sons, and I think he loves them both.

[androkguz]

Sounds like the Giant is implying a Doctor Doom feel to Tarquin, at least in his approach to leading his people and maintaining a stable civilization. He's an evil guy, demonstrated through his methods, but his desire to keep some stability tempers this. Also, like Doom, he's got a bit of a snag that prevents him from simply sitting back and being a tyrant to his people; for Doom, we have Reed Richards, and for Tarquin, we've got a flair for the dramatic.

You nailed it there with that comparison.

I have always said thought that there is no one in the comic that is Evil the way Xykon is. X makes evilness an advantage above paladins, druids, archmages, priests of the Dark One, soul selling elves and minions.

Tarquin doesn't live just for himself. He lives for his plan of a peaceful and organized Western Continent. He lives to make himself a great story. He loves his sons too, and he is got a strong (twisted) sense of honor (I think).

[Mr. Pants]

He killed a bunch of slaves with fire just to spell "ELAN"...

[Math_Mage]

He killed a bunch of slaves with fire just to spell "ELAN"...

And also to send a message to other slaves who might be thinking about trying to escape, as noted by the OP.

[Mr. Pants]

You think he'll find out that Haley and Vaarsuvius were responsible for releasing the slaves? I'd hate to see what he would have in mind for them...

[Math_Mage]

You think he'll find out that Haley and Vaarsuvius were responsible for releasing the slaves? I'd hate to see what he would have in mind for them...

He may already know. Tarquin doesn't show his hand. In any event, it profits him little to further antagonize the Order unless they keep getting in his way.

Besides, V has a rather bigger secret to keep from Tarquin.

[TheZenMaster]

And also to send a message to other slaves who might be thinking about trying to escape, as noted by the OP.

That are also suffering under his rule BECAUSE.

He isn't a good man. He could easily start a new empire called "Empire of Patched Wounds". Im pretty sure everybody would flock to that.

And focus on using his great military strategics to create an ACTUAL stability rather then mock up stability for his own gain.

So its not direct.

He doesn't kill because the act of killing gives him pleasure (Xykon) but he kills because the act of killing gives him a benefit.

Hes still a horrible bastard.

[MyNameIsSecret]

You think he'll find out that Haley and Vaarsuvius were responsible for releasing the slaves? I'd hate to see what he would have in mind for them...

Seeming that he and the rest of the LG are currently on their way to fight the Order at Girards Gate, I don't think it really matters now.

[Math_Mage]

That are also suffering under his rule BECAUSE.

He isn't a good man. He could easily start a new empire called "Empire of Patched Wounds". Im pretty sure everybody would flock to that.

And focus on using his great military strategics to create an ACTUAL stability rather then mock up stability for his own gain.

So its not direct.

He doesn't kill because the act of killing gives him pleasure (Xykon) but he kills because the act of killing gives him a benefit.

Hes still a horrible bastard.

I didn't dispute any of that, or say anything that implies otherwise. :smallconfused: My comment was related to the Lawful/Chaotic axis, not the Good/Evil axis.

[rbetieh]

He may already know. Tarquin doesn't show his hand. In any event, it profits him little to further antagonize the Order unless they keep getting in his way.

Besides, V has a rather bigger secret to keep from Tarquin.

Killing your long-lost sons girlfriend is also not going to endear you to said son....

[TheZenMaster]

I didn't dispute any of that, or say anything that implies otherwise. :smallconfused: My comment was related to the Lawful/Chaotic axis, not the Good/Evil axis.

Oh. Your right then.

[martianmister]

Sent a message to the slaves aka if you try to escape, you're burned litterally. It was technically ''justice'', like the romans who crucified the slaves during Spartacus' revolt...As Tarquin said later, an empire is maintained by intimidation. He knows that. In the second example, it's even easier to explain. The aim of the gladiatorial games is to make the people forget about the tyranny oppressing them, that's the essence of bread and circus. Now, what you need for that are impressive death scenes. I guess you can figure out the rest.

I can agree with that. My main problem is Tarquin's supposed love for his sons. I guess we will see it when we should see it. :smallwink:

[Omergideon]

Killing your long-lost sons girlfriend is also not going to endear you to said son....

But provides him with a powerful, if cliche, reason for revenge that makes it personal beyond the mere good vs evil aspects.

[Paseo H]

Sociopaths can still "love" in a certain way. It doesn't make Tarquin any less a monster for him to love his sons.

[martianmister]

It doesn't make Tarquin any less a monster for him to love his sons.

No one is arguing about his alignment.

[Mr. Pants]

He's a totally depraved evil and insidious man... :smalleek:

[Mutant Sheep]

He's a totally depraved evil and insidious man... :smalleek:

Yeah. Not many people have bothered trying to argue against that. That's the point of mister's statement.:smallconfused:

[Smolder]

All you need to know to understand Tarquin is the last 3 panels of 817 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0817.html) (one of my favorite jokes)

Tarquin's idea of how to control a country: "Fear and intimidation, mostly, though a little torture here and there helps."

His entire governing style is summed up right there. He has no conscience, but his purpose is to control the populace by sacrificing a few undesirables a day. And if their executions can entertain the populace, too, well that only strengthens his control.

[Nilan8888]

Tarquin and Xykon are both evil, but it helps to have perspective on their differences.

For instance, Xykon enjoys killing. He enjoys suffering and physical pain. He's totally uninterested in who people are or what they're about any further than it takes to torture them with something.

Tarquin doesn't derive pleasure from that. He is not, in actual fact, a sadist. He prefers things most people do, and would much prefer spending an evening in the arms of a beautiful woman, for instance, rather than rummaging around the dungeons looking for someone to hurt.

Now that doesn't mean Tarquin doesn't derive some sort of pleasure from someone's pain, but that's because Tarquin, like many of us, is interested in NARRATIVE. Both his own and other people's. For instance, he'd probably be incredibly interested in RedCloak's story. Mind you, he wouldn't change any of it, and would love to see RedCloak die tragically OR murder more people to emerge triumphant... but that's because he's interested in personal drama regardless of the consequences. He loves a good fight, he loves political and personal turmoil (though these largely in other people). He loves a good story, and pain is always part of a good story.

But watching someone get tortured? Yeah, he'll do it... witness his flashback-bluebeard treatment of one of his many "wives" with ol' Myron a few comics back... but it's a means to an end.

Xykon is a murderous sociopath who has no emotional needs whatsoever and uses people for entertainment. He doesn't even keep people around to feel good about himself or want to be loved -- he's not even human enough to be a narcissist. Emotionally, there's nothing there.

Tarquin is more... complex. He's closer to a narcissist, but I'm not sure he's even that -- Nale is really more of a narcissist, although Tsukiko fit the bill just as well or even better. If Tarquin is one, he's not the overt type that Nale tends to be. And although I suppose Tsukiko wasn't overt either, Tarquin's not quite like her at the same time.

Tarquin is capable of a sort of strange idealism that he may truly believe, deluded as it is. And he may even be capable of a sort of love as well. I highly doubt he loved all his wives, but he loves Elan as per word of author, and might have actually had real affection for Elan's Mom, and for Penelope as well. He's doesn't fit as comfortably into any sort of psychological cubbyhole.

He is, however, thoroughly evil. That should not be forgotten.