Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

[Kato]

Thought I'd get a new thread started since we are beyond the 50 page mark. Voting for the official title should be finished somewhere on the first two pages, though...


btw, did I miss it or was there a reason we didn't discuss the Springtime of youth chapter last week? (Like... Akamaru's penis or Hinata getting pissed on...)


edit: Title has one nomination and three votes for now, if something beats that I'll change again.

[Socratov]

well, i vote for "Naruto IV: Hidden Village in plain sight" I liked that subtle suggestion...

[Madara]

My vote goes to
Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

[Xondoure]

My vote goes to
Naruto IV: Tobi or not Tobi, that is the question

Seconded. :smallamused:

[Traab]

I liked Naruto IV: A New Hope.

[Madara]

Now to actually talk about Naruto:

Yay, a bunch of fights are happening./ sarcasm

I love combat, don't get me wrong, I love all the cool jutsu and such. But, it slows down the manga...sooo much. Now that we have three fights going on, it's gonna take a couple weeks to progress the plot. Plus, I'm betting we're gonna have some sort of flash back/"You won, now I'll tell you stuff" from Tobi, Kabuto, or Madara.

In the end, the combat is just better in the Anime because it goes fast enough to keep my interest.

[Sotharsyl]

I'm interested in one thing in the Kabuto/Itachi/Sasuke battle, Kabuto is trying to get a advantage by getting Sasuke on his side but his arguments don't work due to the fact that Sasuke now knows more about how Itachi was ordered to do it by Kohona.

But think back to why Itachi is there in the first place, his pre recorded "Defend Kohona!" brainwashing was used on him instead of Sasuke and Nagato was still there and under Kabuto's control while Itachi explained it all, because he did explain it before fighting Nagato right?

Now logically shouldn't Kabuto try the "Your brother tried to brainwash you !" card to divide the brothers before going into battle?

Sasuke hasn't heard that one yet and while he should be weary of anything Kabuto says Itachi as a Edo fighting Kabuto is pretty weird no, either he's under someone else's control but Edo Tensei is a very rare jutsu or Kabuto might be telling the truth.

[Kato]

Now logically shouldn't Kabuto try the "Your brother tried to brainwash you !" card to divide the brothers before going into battle?


I see where you are coming from but a) he has no reason to trust him and b) it wasn't really a "bad brainwashing" as far as things go... considering what Kabuto/Orchimaru wanted to do to him Itachi is still a more likeable person and I don't think Kabuto isn't aware of that. He'll fail miserably so it's a waste of time... Or maybe he'll try but I'm sure it won't work.

[Sotharsyl]

I see where you are coming from but a) he has no reason to trust him and b) it wasn't really a "bad brainwashing" as far as things go... considering what Kabuto/Orchimaru wanted to do to him Itachi is still a more likeable person and I don't think Kabuto isn't aware of that. He'll fail miserably so it's a waste of time... Or maybe he'll try but I'm sure it won't work.

I have to say that in principle there isn't such a thing as "a good brainwashing" especially Itachi's.

[Kato]

I have to say that in principle there isn't such a thing as "a good brainwashing" especially Itachi's.

Well, I'm all for freedom of choice and stuff but there's a difference between "kill all the ones you loved" brainwashing" and "go back and protect your home" brainwashing, isn't there?

[Sotharsyl]

Well, I'm all for freedom of choice and stuff but there's a difference between "kill all the ones you loved" brainwashing" and "go back and protect your home" brainwashing, isn't there?

Ah there's tons of options with Koto and Itachi's well his plan would have activated only if Sasuke atacked Naruto which for simplicity's sake let's assume Itachi was right and the only way the sequence would work is:

Sasuke attacks Naruto << Sasuke was attacking Kohona << Sasuke found out that the Kohona higher ups ordered the killing of Sasuke's family.

So Itachi gives him programming which means "go now and fight to defend the ones who ordered the execution of your family" after all the things Sasuke just learned, the truth still fresh in his mind he would be forced to do this.

Wouldn't it have been more merciful to issue a "Go away and never attempt to destroy Kohona" that way Sasuke wouldn't be forced to defend the Elders and leave in the place he knows and I'm sorry to repeat myself again ordered his family's execution.

But I guess Itachi couldn't leave the pour defenceless ninja of Kohona without a Uchiha protector.

[MammonAzrael]

But I guess Itachi couldn't leave the pour defenceless ninja of Kohona without a Uchiha protector.

To be fair, Uchiha's are stupidly powerful and some of the best protection around.

[Kato]

So Itachi gives him programming which means "go now and fight to defend the ones who ordered the execution of your family" after all the things Sasuke just learned, the truth still fresh in his mind he would be forced to do this.


Oh, right, because Konoha is only the elders and it's not like he'd protect all the good people and his former friends as well and probably be happier helping them instead of just trying to kill any and everyone he hates...
Also, we don't even know Sasuke would have to find out about it, all he had to do was meet naruto under all kinds of circumstances. Tobi telling Sasuke about it was of course possible but in no way had to have happened at that point.
When he planted the Jutsu Sasuke was still working for Oro, iirc.

[jindra34]

To be fair, Uchiha's are stupidly powerful and some of the best protection around.

I'd append to that statement; when they actually care. So far we have a count of 1 Uchiha who actually seemed loyal to his village.

[Lord Raziere]

what about Obito? he seemed a nice guy….

[Madara]

I'd append to that statement; when they actually care. So far we have a count of 1 Uchiha who actually seemed loyal to his village.

3: Obito, Shisui, Itachi

Also, arguably Madara :smallamused: yes, Madara.

[jindra34]

3: Obito, Shisui, Itachi

Also, arguably Madara :smallamused: yes, Madara.

Forgot about Obito, and honestly Shisui might be but honestly I think we have a decided lack of info on him so its kinda up for grabs. And Madara, the guy who originally sicked Kyubi on the Leaf as a loyal villager, are you kidding me? He may have been loyal to his clan and for other personal reasons but I doubt he was loyal to a village ever.

[Madara]

Madara: Yes, he's a glorious bastard. He's totally clan first, but..remember why he did things?

If you look at his actions, its like this.

Self>Clan>Village>Others

He only did his actions because he thought it was best for his clan, and for the village.

Its a case similar to Danzo, he's a jerk, but he wants Konoha to be the best. In some ways he was quite loyal to the village. He just wanted the Uchiha to be on top.

[Sotharsyl]

Oh, right, because Konoha is only the elders and it's not like he'd protect all the good people and his former friends as well and probably be happier helping them instead of just trying to kill any and everyone he hates...
Also, we don't even know Sasuke would have to find out about it, all he had to do was meet naruto under all kinds of circumstances. Tobi telling Sasuke about it was of course possible but in no way had to have happened at that point.
When he planted the Jutsu Sasuke was still working for Oro, iirc.

If I were Kabuto my argumment,after learning how much Sasuke loves Itachi again would be:

"Itachi allready sacrificied all the Uchiha clan's lives for Kohona's safety once and now if you didn't willingly devote your life for Kohona's safety he was going to force you to do it,seems pretty clear he values Kohona over all others even includding you his little brother /insert_snakey_tongue_pose"

It would tie in nicely with Sasuke saying he didn't want to walk down the path he was tricked into, and that was merely Tsukiomying him for added hatred :smallbiggrin:

I don't get it why couldn't Itachi use a "You're now a pacifistic painter now go make some art" why did he have to made it about fighting for Kohona.

[Traab]

Because as has already been said, konoha couldnt POSSIBLY survive without an uchiha there keeping an eye on things. Besides, an uchiha painter would just be a plagiarist bastard, hated everywhere he tries to peddle other peoples work with his name on it. As a ninja thats actually considered impressive. :smallbiggrin:

[Madara]

Because as has already been said, konoha couldnt POSSIBLY survive without an uchiha there keeping an eye on things.

I debate this. Konoha is plenty strong without the Uchiha. Granted, they are at 1/2 strength, but they are definitely a contender for 1st or 2nd strongest village.

They have some pretty strong clans. We don't know much about the other nations, but I don't think Konoha has ever lost a war.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Yay, a bunch of fights are happening.
That's pretty much the whole point of the manga.

[Kato]

I debate this. Konoha is plenty strong without the Uchiha. Granted, they are at 1/2 strength, but they are definitely a contender for 1st or 2nd strongest village.

They have some pretty strong clans. We don't know much about the other nations, but I don't think Konoha has ever lost a war.

Pretty sure Traab was joking there...


I don't think there is much, or anything to seperate the brothers, no matter what Kabuto says.. Sasuke is obsessed with Itachi and Itachi is obsessed with Sasuke... gay incest love ftw...

[Traab]

Pretty sure Traab was joking there...


I don't think there is much, or anything to seperate the brothers, no matter what Kabuto says.. Sasuke is obsessed with Itachi and Itachi is obsessed with Sasuke... gay incest love ftw...

Mmmm, gay incest bishy/emo lovin. Thats like thirty layers of hawtness right there. Only way to make it better would be to include naruto in a love triangle. And I was not so much joking about the uchiha thing as rolling my eyes as I sarcastically stated the generic fanon about how important people seem to think the sharingan is to the village.

[Kato]

Mmmm, gay incest bishy/emo lovin. Thats like thirty layers of hawtness right there. Only way to make it better would be to include naruto in a love triangle. And I was not so much joking about the uchiha thing as rolling my eyes as I sarcastically stated the generic fanon about how important people seem to think the sharingan is to the village.

Isn't sarcasm kind of joking... or kidding... or not being serious, anyway.

Yay, but then we need a real triangle with A wants B, B wants C and C wants A to make the drama perfect! (Heck, this is so much more fun in shoujo ai manga...)

[AgentofOdd]

On a somewhat related note, wouldn't beating Kabuto and undoing his zombie magic kill Itachi? Meaning Itachi has lied to Sasuke yet again, and the latter will probably end up having additional angsty teen points added to his psyche. Not looking forward to that.

[MammonAzrael]

On a somewhat related note, wouldn't beating Kabuto and undoing his zombie magic kill Itachi? Meaning Itachi has lied to Sasuke yet again, and the latter will probably end up having additional angsty teen points added to his psyche. Not looking forward to that.

Presumably. Since it's supposed to be impossible for the Edo Tensai zombies to go rogue, we can't be sure though. If Kabuto has lost control of Itachi, it's possible he can no longer end Itachi by ending Edo Tensai. However, I wouldn't put it past Itachi to neglect the detail that talking after stopping ET is gonna be difficult since that'll end him.

[AgentofOdd]

It's true we can't be certain what rules apply to Itachi now, and to be honest I'd love to have him stick around since that'll mean Itachi will have a hand in Sasuke's inevitable redemption making it a touch more believable than Naruto saving someone all my himself for the umteenth time.

Unfortunately, since our local spiky haired messiah must be the only source of salvation, it would make Itachi's continued existence in the impure world rather short.

[darksolitaire]

New chapter!

Kabuto turns out to be Sage! That alone probably isn't enough to beat two op Uchihas. He's also a dragon. Waah! Also, the mentioning of Shikkotsurin makes me think that Tsunade might go sage mode too. Oh, and Karin is an Uzumaki. No big surprise there.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Do we need spoilers? Never mind.

Kabuto spent his off-screen time wisely it seems. And now he's a necromancer snake dragon sage. And Karin is an Uzumaki. Who would have thought.

[Kato]

We usually do spoilers for the first few new posts.


Well... Kabuto turned out to be pretty awesome, combining everything Oro had and making it better. Dragon sage for the win!

Still, he is up against two perfect Susanoo users... you're screwed, boy.

And apparently every redhead in the world is an Uzumaki.. Or rather the other way round. Except for Naruto, of course...

So... are Yuugo's people natural safes or something?

[DiscipleofBob]

I don't know if it's just a bad translation, but I couldn't help but crack up at the most recent chapter.

Seriously, is it too late to change the thread title to Naruto IV: Dr. Snakes, the Most Evil Sage Mode?

[Sotharsyl]

I don't know if it's just a bad translation, but I couldn't help but crack up at the most recent chapter.

Seriously, is it too late to change the thread title to Naruto IV: Dr. Snakes, the Most Evil Sage Mode?

I vote for this, I would do it twice if I could but it does sort of give the impression that Dr Snakes is the one with the most evil sage mode which isn't true.

Also I just love all the revelations more tying in of secondary in the plot character and more world building is epic win in my book :smallbiggrin:

[MammonAzrael]

I don't know if it's just a bad translation, but I couldn't help but crack up at the most recent chapter.

Seriously, is it too late to change the thread title to Naruto IV: Dr. Snakes, the Most Evil Sage Mode?

Yeeeeeessss! Best thing to come out of this chapter.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Eh. Dr. Snakes, the Most Evil Sage Mode isn't actually funny. So I say keep it as is.

[VanBuren]

Eh. Dr. Snakes, the Most Evil Sage Mode isn't actually funny. So I say keep it as is.

What is this I don't even


You won't defeat me by becoming insulting Dr. Snakes. This is my field. Internets will be on my side.


((IOW, yes, I love that new title))

[Traab]

We usually do spoilers for the first few new posts.


Well... Kabuto turned out to be pretty awesome, combining everything Oro had and making it better. Dragon sage for the win!

Still, he is up against two perfect Susanoo users... you're screwed, boy.

And apparently every redhead in the world is an Uzumaki.. Or rather the other way round. Except for Naruto, of course...

So... are Yuugo's people natural safes or something?


Oh please, everyone knows that ultimate attacks/defenses are only that the first few times they are seen, then some new move comes out of nowhere that counters it. Im sure there will be some sort of skeletal dragon technique that absorbs the energy of susanoo or something silly like that. After all, its not like kabuto is unaware of this ultimate move. I fully expect to see sasuke and/or itachi to break out susanoo, smirk like they just won, then exclaim in shock, "NO!!! How can this be?! My susanoo should protect me from anything!/Why isnt the sword working?" Something to that effect at least.

[nazgulnine]

I couldn't stop laughing at this chapter. I'm honestly half-expecting Kabuto to make an off-handed comment regarding either the dragon balls or wishes next chapter.

Also, "re:skeletal dragon techniques": yup. He'll definitely have some sort of techniques revolving around snakes, bones, and dragons. Probably fire, too. We just might witness a battle of firebreathing snakecharmers. Actually, given the patterns these chapters all seem to fall into, next chapter we'll get half of a fight and be switched over to what the amazing Naruto is doing. And get a quip about how awesome Guy thinks being a kid is. Maybe we'll start a long, drawn-out story about how Tobi was beaten with sticks as a child for not eating his peas, hence causing him to murder everyone who ever saw him, thus leading to his rise to power. Or maybe how Tobi really is a thousand-year-old tailed beast trapped in human form... maybe.

[VanBuren]

I couldn't stop laughing at this chapter. I'm honestly half-expecting Kabuto to make an off-handed comment regarding either the dragon balls or wishes next chapter.

Also, "re:skeletal dragon techniques": yup. He'll definitely have some sort of techniques revolving around snakes, bones, and dragons. Probably fire, too. We just might witness a battle of firebreathing snakecharmers. Actually, given the patterns these chapters all seem to fall into, next chapter we'll get half of a fight and be switched over to what the amazing Naruto is doing. And get a quip about how awesome Guy thinks being a kid is. Maybe we'll start a long, drawn-out story about how Tobi was beaten with sticks as a child for not eating his peas, hence causing him to murder everyone who ever saw him, thus leading to his rise to power. Or maybe how Tobi really is a thousand-year-old tailed beast trapped in human form... maybe.

Tobi is really Naruto. See, many years into his future, Naruto still can't save Sasuke or his other friends. So Naruto makes a deal with the Ninja World and becomes the ten-tailed beast, giving him the power to save everyone. But people grew to fear and mistrust him, and he couldn't save anyone. All he could do was just clean up the mess afterwards. Eventually, he was betrayed by the very people he had tried to save.

But right on the brink of death, he was summoned into the past by the Sage of the Six Paths, who used him as a weapon and then bound him into himself. His bitterness grew as he still could not save anyone. Before the Sage died, he separated Naruto from the bulk of his power, and separated that power into the nine beasts.

As time wore on, Tobi--as he know called himself--came to a realization. He needed to kill Naruto, to spare him the pain of becoming a counter guardian tailed beast. But first, he has to reassemble his full-powered self so the chance of paradox can be at its highest.

[Madara]

A very nice new chapter..but the combat will still be much better as a video.

[masterjoda99]

Tobi is really Naruto. See, many years into his future, Naruto still can't save Sasuke or his other friends. So Naruto makes a deal with the Ninja World and becomes the ten-tailed beast, giving him the power to save everyone. But people grew to fear and mistrust him, and he couldn't save anyone. All he could do was just clean up the mess afterwards. Eventually, he was betrayed by the very people he had tried to save.

But right on the brink of death, he was summoned into the past by the Sage of the Six Paths, who used him as a weapon and then bound him into himself. His bitterness grew as he still could not save anyone. Before the Sage died, he separated Naruto from the bulk of his power, and separated that power into the nine beasts.

As time wore on, Tobi--as he know called himself--came to a realization. He needed to kill Naruto, to spare him the pain of becoming a counter guardian tailed beast. But first, he has to reassemble his full-powered self so the chance of paradox can be at its highest.

Meh, that's a better plot twist than what probably will happen.

[Madara]

Honestly, I stopped caring who tobi was a couple chapters ago, when he said he was no one.

[lord_khaine]

Well, impressive chapter, Kabuto actualy managet to dig out something that makes it look like he has a fighting chance.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Probably fire, too. We just might witness a battle of firebreathing snakecharmers.

Why would they trade blows with completely useless jutsu?

[MammonAzrael]

Well, impressive chapter, Kabuto actualy managet to dig out something that makes it look like he has a fighting chance.

Eh. Given that he is facing two Susanoo users, the only reason it really feels like he has a chance is we fully expect his Sage mode to offer some technique that defeats/ignores the "invincible" Uchihas.

Don't get me wrong though, Sage mode was a great idea for him.

[nazgulnine]

Eh. Given that he is facing two Susanoo users, the only reason it really feels like he has a chance is we fully expect his Sage mode to offer some technique that defeats/ignores the "invincible" Uchihas.

Don't get me wrong though, Sage mode was a great idea for him.

So any idea when Tsunade pulls out Slug-Sage Mode? And when does she pass that along to Sakura?

Will Shikamaru get Sloth Sage Mode? What about Choji? Butterfly Sage Mode? Pig Sage Ino? What about Rock Lee? Caterpillar/Pug/Tim Burton Sage Mode?
I'm not even gonna touch Shino, since he's already Batman and thus is in permanent Bug Sage Mode.

[Madara]

I agree, sage mode was a good choice, I feel like we're starting to actually grasp Kabuto's ability.

Also, it'll give us a look at what sage mode v.s. Uchiha looks like, giving the opportunity to gauge Naruto Sage mode vs sasuke.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Shikimaru would get Deer Sage mode, not Sloth Sage mode.

And I doubt the other summons actually have Sage Modes, as none of the other summons seem to actually have bosses like the snakes, slugs, or toads.

[Eclipse]

Eh. Given that he is facing two Susanoo users, the only reason it really feels like he has a chance is we fully expect his Sage mode to offer some technique that defeats/ignores the "invincible" Uchihas.

Don't get me wrong though, Sage mode was a great idea for him.

Sage mode defeated a rinnegan user, and the rinnegan is supposed to be more hax than the sharingan. So I think it's reasonable to assume Kabuto has a decent chance here. Then again, I suppose you could make the argument that Pain was not in good health at the time, much like when Sasuke killed Orochimaru and Itachi, so who knows really.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Nagato's ill health had been roughly stable for a long time I believe and well compensated for with his Six Paths. That said full health would have let the fight go longer and Naruto still benefited from Nine Tails bailing him out and forcing Pain to waste a lot of chakra.

Also Sage Mode if the same as Naruto's is a support tech... so Kabuto will need something more still.

[Gilphon]

Plus there's the facts that Pain had been soloing any entire village for awhile before Naruto showed up, that Naruto had vastly superior intel on his side, and that Pain would've won by quite a bit if he hadn't been forced to take Naruto alive.

[Eclipse]

Plus there's the facts that Pain had been soloing any entire village for awhile before Naruto showed up, that Naruto had vastly superior intel on his side, and that Pain would've won by quite a bit if he hadn't been forced to take Naruto alive.

All good points. Though Itachi and Sasuke also need to take Kabuto alive in order to force the end of Edo Tensei. But who knows if Sasuke will stick to that plan.

[Kato]

Don't forget ninja's aren't like DBZ fighters when it comes to winning, but there is a rock-paper-scissors aspect as well. Sure, if we just look at "who can make the bigger explosion" then it is simple, but when we talk about giant chakra barriers, invincible genjutsu, chakra suckers etc things aren't simply A beat B, and C beat A, so B loses against C. I actually kind of enjoy that... (Or at least that's how it should be)

[irenicObserver]

We usually do spoilers for the first few new posts.


Well... Kabuto turned out to be pretty awesome, combining everything Oro had and making it better. Dragon sage for the win!

Still, he is up against two perfect Susanoo users... you're screwed, boy.

And apparently every redhead in the world is an Uzumaki.. Or rather the other way round. Except for Naruto, of course...

So... are Yuugo's people natural safes or something?


Sages you mean?


I just found out Edo Zombies are colloquially known as Confetti Zombies, that's rather funny.

[Kato]

Sages you mean?


Yes, sorry.

Also, nice thing I found. I felt like sharing. (http://us9.memecdn.com/trolling_c_218042.jpg)

[Silva Stormrage]

Yes, sorry.

Also, nice thing I found. I felt like sharing. (http://us9.memecdn.com/trolling_c_218042.jpg)

Okay that is hilarious. 100% Win

[Socratov]

seconded...

[irenicObserver]

Yes, sorry.

Also, nice thing I found. I felt like sharing. (http://us9.memecdn.com/trolling_c_218042.jpg)

Comedy gold.

[Lord Raziere]

Ok, I finally need to ask:

what does trolling mean in this context? I mean I get the "forum troll" meaning, but what does it mean when an author starts trolling? I'm confused.

[Giegue]

It depends, and can be different depending on the situation. Mainly, as I see it anyway, Kishi's main style of manga trolling is when the author makes something you look forward to something or build some character/jutsu/whatever up to be totally awesome only to have it be extremely disappointing. I.E. Pain being a crippled Nagato....or Tobi not being Madara. Other examples can be characters that are highly hyped being made to look like a joke after I.E. The Kages getting crushed by Zomdara or the other Edos in the war that where hyped way back as powerful ************* get effortlessly sealed like they where nothing. Another common move Kishi makes in a similar vein is to off-panel a lot of stuff I.E. Kakashi's "rampage" against the Zomswordsman of the Mist. All of these kind of actions are generally what is refereed to as Kishi's "trolling," but it could include other stuff. I'm not an authority on this.

Anyway, back on to the topic of Kabuto vs. the Sauce and Mary Sue. Am I the only one who thinks that Kabuto's sage mode WON'T allow him to use snake/dragon kata but will instead give him access to powerful ninjutsu techniques? I have seen a lot of people expecting "snake/dragon kata" out of Kabuto because Naruto had his "frog kata" but not every sage mode has to have the same techniques, correct? I personally think it would be cool and fitting of Kabuto's character to have the snake/dragon sage mode be based in Ninjutsu instead of Taijutsu. It would be neat, different animals having different sage specalties. Frogs get Taijutsu. Snakes get Ninjutsu. Perhaps Slugs(Tsunade's summon) get genjutsu or medical jutsu? Would be interesting to say the least.

[MammonAzrael]

It depends, and can be different depending on the situation. Mainly, as I see it anyway, Kishi's main style of manga trolling is when the author makes something you look forward to something or build some character/jutsu/whatever up to be totally awesome only to have it be extremely disappointing. I.E. Pain being a crippled Nagato....or Tobi not being Madara. Other examples can be characters that are highly hyped being made to look like a joke after I.E. The Kages getting crushed by Zomdara or the other Edos in the war that where hyped way back as powerful ************* get effortlessly sealed like they where nothing. Another common move Kishi makes in a similar vein is to off-panel a lot of stuff I.E. Kakashi's "rampage" against the Zomswordsman of the Mist. All of these kind of actions are generally what is refereed to as Kishi's "trolling," but it could include other stuff. I'm not an authority on this.

Anyway, back on to the topic of Kabuto vs. the Sauce and Mary Sue. Am I the only one who thinks that Kabuto's sage mode WON'T allow him to use snake/dragon kata but will instead give him access to powerful ninjutsu techniques? I have seen a lot of people expecting "snake/dragon kata" out of Kabuto because Naruto had his "frog kata" but not every sage mode has to have the same techniques, correct? I personally think it would be cool and fitting of Kabuto's character to have the snake/dragon sage mode be based in Ninjutsu instead of Taijutsu. It would be neat, different animals having different sage specalties. Frogs get Taijutsu. Snakes get Ninjutsu. Perhaps Slugs(Tsunade's summon) get genjutsu or medical jutsu? Would be interesting to say the least.

Given the general lore with snakes I would think they'd be the frontrunners for genjutsu.

[Giegue]

Yeah, but Orochimaru and Kabuto have always leaned more towards ninjutsu then genjutsu, with Edo Tensei, medical jutsu and snake techs being their signature moves. However, Kabuto getting genjutsu abilities could be interesting, but ultimately would make little sense in this battle. Genjutsu is crap against sharingan, and since he's facing sharingan users I don't think Kishi would give him a sage mode specialized in the very thing that the sharingan is best at countering UNLESS there was a contrived plot device like sage chakra allowing his genjutsu to be sharingan-proof.(Which, IMO, could totally happen with Kishi.) However, if he dose whip out some genjutsu it would be nice as I always liked genjutsu techs and longed for Kishi to show us some powerful genjutsu that don't require sharingan, since up to now pretty much every high-level genjutsu tech has been an Uchiha exclusive.

[Sotharsyl]

Ok, I finally need to ask:

what does trolling mean in this context? I mean I get the "forum troll" meaning, but what does it mean when an author starts trolling? I'm confused.

Trolling: the action by which a manganaka in chosing to go ahead with his version of the story, instead of the versions written by the fans in their heads and thus allready canon for them, inflicts great suffering on the allready mentioned fans.

I'm all up for snake sage mode being radically different from toad sage mode in application you'd think that your sage abilities would be greatly influenced by the animal you trained with.

[Giegue]

Yeah. I just can't see Kabuto being the Taijutsu-specialist type. With all his advance ninjutsu and medical techs and his mad scientist-like personality he just seems more like somebody who would prefer to use jutsu techniques over physical force. Espcially with Oro's cells implanted. Anyway....either way, I hope Mary Sue actually gets in some trouble for once and we get to see some of Sasuke's EMS techs. As much as I dislike the Sauce, I find his techs to be cool and would love to see what his EMS can do. As for Mary Sue, I think he deserves to get knocked down a peg. Kishi has made him virtually flawless, able to win pretty much any battle ever and never ever losing his cool. That's why I call him Mary Sue. To see him genuinely struggle against Kabuto would actually make him less of a Sue. FYI Mary Sue = Itachi, just so you know who I'm talking about.

[Frozen_Feet]

Re: Trolling.

Shortly, it's a mangaka's act of building up reader expectations, only to go contrary to them on a critical moment. The more anti-climactic this is, the bigger the troll.

Now, Kishimoto isn't nearly as bad troll as, say, Tite Kubo is. His instances of trolling have been a) Nagato resurrecting all the characters he killed when invading Konoha and b) not showing much of the 7 Swordsmen after hyping them up.

[Giegue]

Another would be Tobi being Obito, IF Kishi goes there. However, I won't get into that one. Kakashi's off panel rampage strikes me as another big one on Kishi's part, but that may be matter of opinion. However, compared to Title Kubo Kishi's troll level is fairly mild to say the least, and unlike title Kubo Kishi makes a **** good villain(Tobi, Orochimaru and Kabuto have WAY more character in their pinky toe then Aizen had in the entire course of the Bleach manga.). I love Kishi's villainous characters. He does a good job making bad guys. It's his protagonists that are sadly lacking. Naruto was originally an awesome character but now has become athe paragon cliche' shonen anime heroism. I personally preferred the loud-mouthed, immature, bratty part 1 Naruto to the preachy hippie Jesus Naruto of part 2. As for Sasuke...his "fall from grace" has been inconsistent, to say the least, though I think his development was far better then Naruto's.

However, most of Kishi's villains are great. I mean, look at Tobi. This guy was for a long time a total comic relief idiot yet now he just oozes evil and is like the darkness personified. Orochimaru too just exuded evilness and was one of the sickest villains I've seen in a shonen for a while. Even Nagato/Pain who I ended up being disappointed in had a VERY unique goal and character. Most of all, none of Kishi's villains are infallible Mary Sues.(Sans Edo Madara if you count him as a "villain.") Tobi's lost a bunch of times yet he's remained an intimidating foe. Oro was beat down but like a weed just kept coming back for more. It's a shame Kishi dose not make his heroes as interesting as his villains; if he did Naruto would be an even more amazing manga.

[Silverraptor]

You guys really need to put a link in the last thread. I didn't know this was up.

[Friv]

Re: Trolling.

Shortly, it's a mangaka's act of building up reader expectations, only to go contrary to them on a critical moment. The more anti-climactic this is, the bigger the troll.

Now, Kishimoto isn't nearly as bad troll as, say, Tite Kubo is. His instances of trolling have been a) Nagato resurrecting all the characters he killed when invading Konoha and b) not showing much of the 7 Swordsmen after hyping them up.

It's also worth noting that author trolling isn't actually always bad. Sometimes, the anti-climax can itself be very interesting or funny, and part of what makes it that way is the way the author has successfully caught everyone off-guard.

(For example, Brian Clevenger of 8-Bit Theatre was rather famous for directly and deliberately trolling his fanbase, which lead to some of the funniest jokes of his run. Andrew Hussie of Homestuck does the same thing, with the same results.)

[Kato]

Trolling: the action by which a manganaka in chosing to go ahead with his version of the story, instead of the versions written by the fans in their heads and thus allready canon for them, inflicts great suffering on the allready mentioned fans.

No? :smallconfused: That makes us sound like idiots. It's not about writing awhat we don't like, it is about bad writing. Or aboud building up expectations and then ruining them or something. Trolling might be a bit up to personal preference but it is pretty general among all viewers/readers.


Re: Trolling.

Shortly, it's a mangaka's act of building up reader expectations, only to go contrary to them on a critical moment. The more anti-climactic this is, the bigger the troll.

Now, Kishimoto isn't nearly as bad troll as, say, Tite Kubo is. His instances of trolling have been a) Nagato resurrecting all the characters he killed when invading Konoha and b) not showing much of the 7 Swordsmen after hyping them up.

It's also worth noting that author trolling isn't actually always bad. Sometimes, the anti-climax can itself be very interesting or funny, and part of what makes it that way is the way the author has successfully caught everyone off-guard.

(For example, Brian Clevenger of 8-Bit Theatre was rather famous for directly and deliberately trolling his fanbase, which lead to some of the funniest jokes of his run. Andrew Hussie of Homestuck does the same thing, with the same results.)
Yeah... another example would be Fairy Tail's Hiro Mashima actually does trolling I don't hold against him (well, I think it's good trolling, anyway)

A few months ago the characters had to prepare for a great tournament in three months. Just when they were starting to train they were called in for a supposed emergency announcing a new arc... that turned out to be just a party for them. Yet a party that due to timey-wimey things resulted in the three months passing in a day.
And lately he has a habit of ship tease trolling.

[lord_khaine]

Regarding Kato's spoiler, as well as the new avatar serie.



And lately he has a habit of ship tease trolling.

Yeah, i do think think the thing with Lucy and Grey were very well done, another example of this being done right is in the new avatar serie, where Katara is being asked about Zuko's mother by one of her grandkid, but interupted before she can answer :smallbiggrin:

[Morph Bark]

...Sasuke has a superhero alter ego called Dr. Snakes now? What.

[Sotharsyl]

...Sasuke has a superhero alter ego called Dr. Snakes now? What.

Of course not :smallyuk: Heaven Forbid Dr. Snakes is such a obvious supervillain name.

Now we just need Naruto to become Mister Fox and we have a nice reversed Mr. Fantastic - Dr. Doom relationship.

[Lord Raziere]

No? :smallconfused: That makes us sound like idiots. It's not about writing awhat we don't like, it is about bad writing. Or aboud building up expectations and then ruining them or something. Trolling might be a bit up to personal preference but it is pretty general among all viewers/readers.


well, if you guys can't agree upon what it is, I'm just gonna have to go ahead and assume that it isn't a real thing since its so subjective. unless you can give me a better definition.

[jindra34]

well, if you guys can't agree upon what it is, I'm just gonna have to go ahead and assume that it isn't a real thing since its so subjective. unless you can give me a better definition.

Just because its subjective doesn't mean its real. Trolling generally is considered to be not showing resolution to an interaction appropriate to the build up eg. if the Mangaka spends a whole arc showing how strong/tough/whatever a villain is we expect the fight between the hero and villain to take some time and actually have some awesome things happen. If the hero just swats the villain aside or otherwise defeats them without us seeing the effort then that is trolling.

[Kato]

well, if you guys can't agree upon what it is, I'm just gonna have to go ahead and assume that it isn't a real thing since its so subjective. unless you can give me a better definition.

Som something that is not obejctive is not real? So there is no good music, no art, no love... but I digress. If you don't think it's trolling, fine, but it's not what you said, anyway.


New chapter!
No spoilers since not much happened.. just some fighting. Wasn't bad, though.

[DiscipleofBob]

Quick! Use the Needle Cannon! That's Snake Man's weakness!

[jindra34]

The only thing I find kinda odd is how quickly Sasuke and Itachi fall into super brothers teamwork mode. They behaved like it was instinct or something.

[DiscipleofBob]

The only thing I find kinda odd is how quickly Sasuke and Itachi fall into super brothers teamwork mode. They behaved like it was instinct or something.

I'm going to play Biju's advocate and say that that part at least was well-explained. When it compared trapping Dr. Snakes to trapping the boar from Sasuke's childhood, it showed that at least before everything went to hell, the brothers did work together, and a lot of that is still probably ingrained at least in Sasuke.

[jindra34]

I'm going to play Biju's advocate and say that that part at least was well-explained. When it compared trapping Dr. Snakes to trapping the boar from Sasuke's childhood, it showed that at least before everything went to hell, the brothers did work together, and a lot of that is still probably ingrained at least in Sasuke.
More the fact that they managed to signal that they were using that plan with exactly one line. Out of how many potential plans how did Itachi know that was the one Sasuke was thinking of?

[Giegue]

Yeah. This chapter was nice. The main reason? For once we got to see a glimer of the old Sasuke we all know and loved(..or hated). I mean, Kishi has been trying so hard laity to make Sasuke seem more and more irredeemable with his "hahahahahahahaha destroy konoha lol!" mentality yet in this fight he's acting a lot like his less villainous old self, fighting alongside his brother. Kishi is essentially showing us "hey, the old Sasuke isn't totally gone yet!" and it's nice because despite my contempt for him, I kinda miss the old Sauce. Seeing him again is nice. It also makes me wonder if this revival of Sasuke's non-villainous side is to show that there is a chance Naruto can redeem him and he still has enough good inside to be worth all of Naruto's trouble...

[Traab]

It could be more an attempt to justify narutos future redemption of sasuke. If we didnt have these types of scenes and in the end naruto manages to change sasuke back to the side of the angels, it wouldnt make sense, people would claim his redemption is stupid because all he has done up till now was "mwahaha! I hate konoha and everyone, I r teh evulz!" so for him to be redeemed by narutos 4th or 5th therapy no jutsu attempt makes no sense. If this fight with itachi gets him started on thinking about the good times of the past, then that leaves a reasonable crack in the wall for naruto to work with.

[Giegue]

Yeah, thats kinda what I was trying to say. I just did not put it as eloquently as I could. Anyway, I heard an interesting theory that the third sage mode/sage location would not be slug-based but rather crow-based. The theory hinged on the fact it's name translates to something along the lines of "humid bone forest" and that the name relates a tad to crows(I.E. Crows are scavengers and thus eat corpses, leaving behind bones...they also said some crap about crows coming from humid climates/forests but I don't really remember much of that..). They also cited that crows have had far more significance then slugs in Naruto and that was more "evidence." The theory of course ended with the whole "lol Itachi will be even more HAXX and have a Tengu sage mode!" which would be totally messed-up...but I find the theory interesting since the possibility of the third sage mode being crow/tengu-based means that Sasuke has a chance of getting his own sage mode, which would be an interesting foil to Naruto's own sage mode.

[DiscipleofBob]

More the fact that they managed to signal that they were using that plan with exactly one line. Out of how many potential plans how did Itachi know that was the one Sasuke was thinking of?

"Do you remember when you came with me on that wild boar mission?"

Seems like a pretty definite signal to me.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Here's a question...where are you lot reading Naruto these days? I want to catch up, but not sure where I can find scans or anything.

[jindra34]

"Do you remember when you came with me on that wild boar mission?"

Seems like a pretty definite signal to me.

How did I manage to miss that line. Well problem seems solved.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Here's a question...where are you lot reading Naruto these days? I want to catch up, but not sure where I can find scans or anything.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Mangareader.net is what I am using, it also hosts the other 2 bigs (One Piece and Bleach) and the quality is quite good in my opinion.

As for the chapter itself, I am glad Sasuke is showing that he isn't that bad, at least for the moment, perhaps having Itachi with him is somehow placating his thirst for vengeance.

I also found the pages despicting the Boar mission to be really awesome, the parallelism was quite good (particularly when Sasuke shoot at the boar when it was in the ground as opposed to shooting at Kabuto who was in the ceiling, that simple difference made it all work for me) and I loved that Itachi's and Sasuke Sussano are different from each other, don't know why though.

[Lord Raziere]

Som something that is not obejctive is not real? So there is no good music, no art, no love... but I digress. If you don't think it's trolling, fine, but it's not what you said, anyway.


New chapter!
No spoilers since not much happened.. just some fighting. Wasn't bad, though.

See this is what I hate about everyone. they keep taking things I say and thinking that those are my wider beliefs, and that, that is what I truly believe just because I say it. I never said that was my wider belief, you just assumed that, then stamped that assumption on to me, thinking I was some idiot that thinks everything is subjective is not real. life is not that simple for peoples beliefs to be that simplistic. stop assuming.

[Kato]

well, if you guys can't agree upon what it is, I'm just gonna have to go ahead and assume that it isn't a real thing since its so subjective. unless you can give me a better definition.[highlighting mine]


See this is what I hate about everyone. they keep taking things I say and thinking that those are my wider beliefs, and that, that is what I truly believe just because I say it. I never said that was my wider belief, you just assumed that, then stamped that assumption on to me, thinking I was some idiot that thinks everything is subjective is not real. life is not that simple for peoples beliefs to be that simplistic. stop assuming.

Hey, just because I say it doesn't mean everyone says it. Now you're the one who assumes things.
But well... it is basically what you said, how should I know you take a different measure for trolling compared to other things? Let's just say, we think it's trolling, you think it's not and it's fine.
If we lack sufficient information we assume things, that's just normal. Just tell me I'm wrong and it's fine.

[Lord Raziere]

I can't make assumptions. it makes me expect things that probably won't happen. better to not make any assumptions to keep my mind open so that when it actually happens, it does not clash with any pre-existing expectations and I can take it without bias.

and I can't tell you that you are wrong, because I can never be certain that I'm right, I can never be certain that anyone is right or wrong, unless its proven so.
I prefer uncertainty to making stupid assumptions and setting myself up for expectations that could be proven wrong at any time.

[Giegue]

Yeah. The Boar mission thing was pretty neat...though it makes me wonder why the heck little Sasuke was in anbu cloths and on an seemingly official mission as AN ACADEMY STUDENT.. As far as I know he never joined Root/ANBU and was not even a Genin until after the massacre. Did Kishi once again forget all about part 1? Or was Itachi's charisma and clout great enough to convince ANBU/his superiors to take a academy student on a mission with him?

Or maybe the boar was not even an official mission and just an odd job Itachi was doing for some rich client and he decided to take his little brother along...that still doesn't explain Sasuke's anbu getup though.... :smallconfused:

[TheFallenOne]

I wouldn't identify it as an ANBU outfit unless a mask or a hooded cloak is included. Yes, black clothes and that piece of armor matches other ANBU we have seen, but what Sasuke's wearing hardly looks like a uniform exclusive to ANBU.

[Silva Stormrage]

I wouldn't identify it as an ANBU outfit unless a mask or a hooded cloak is included. Yes, black cloaks and that piece of armor matches other ANBU we have seen, but what Sasuke's wearing hardly looks like a uniform exclusive to ANBU.

It might simply be the Uchihia Police Uniform, have we ever seen it? I would assume the "Police force" of the leaf has some kind of uniform.

[Giegue]

Actually, we have seen the police uniform. It is simply a standard Jonin flack jacked with a blue undershirt that has the Uchiha Police symbol on the sides of each upper arm. I think it may have only been seen in the anime, though, but here's a reference pic..

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100601140014/naruto/images/thumb/1/14/Uchiha_clan_after_founding.jpg/830px-Uchiha_clan_after_founding.jpg

As for the uniform, true, there is no mask, and I know it may not be official ANBU but thus far the ONLY people seen wearing any kind of uniform like that have been ANBU, so unless we see something else that contradicts the idea that those are ANBU uniforms it is a safe assumption(though still an assumption none the less) to say that the uniform is somehow ANBU related. That certainly does not mean Sauce was in ANBU at the time, though, since Itachi could have easily gotten him the uniform due to his post in ANBU and the fact that he was bringing him on the mission.

However, the uniform is not of that much consequence to this......what the REAL issue is the fact that Sasuke should have still been an academy student pre-massacure and yet now we see him on a mission. Either Kishi once again totally forgot about part 1 OR Itachi somehow convinced his superiors to let Sasuke tag along on a mission. The latter would kinda make some sense since from what we know Sasuke was a talented student in the academy and Itachi could, being in the post he was, made a case for taking Sasuke along for the mission as a learning experience for him...especially since a Boar is not that dangerous an enemy as compared to, say, actual enemy ninja. Either way, though, this needs some kind of clarification since without a story like the one I described or something similar being true Sasuke's mission runs into some serious timeline issues.(I.E. he should have still been an academy student when he went on that mission.)

[Soras Teva Gee]

The translation I read doesn't say "mission" it says "task" so this may have simply been some kind of hunting trip or in-clan matter like it was wrecking up Uchiha holdings. If anyone wants to clear up that translation be my guest. And even Japanese schools have breaks and holidays so its not like Sasuke has to be there. We've already seen clans having ostensible normal jobs they keep up in addition to being shinobi.

Likewise I wouldn't be too sure on the outfits unless we see some coloration. It wouldn't be the first time this manga has overused black in its shading no? The Uzumaki red hair as black as Sasuke's blue outfit anyone?

I still have a problem thematically though... since when were the brothers ever this close? Have I just missed it or were there any previous flashbacks even remotely like this. This can't be that far off from the massacre by Sasuke's age. Didn't we have a whole emo trip about how Sasuke never for a moment understood his brother, while Itachi was always aloof, dismissive, and distant. A note like their parents put them up to this would have been reaaally helpful and cost like half a sentence.

[Madara]

Good chapter, very clever Mr. Kabuto, but Dr.Snakes has his big brother, Judge Crows, and he's found you guilty of being up against two Uchihas.

Sucks to your asmar :smallamused:

[Drolyt]

Good chapter. I'm not sure how the boar thing was relevant, but it was entertaining nonetheless. I'm glad to see Sasuke being less evil. I liked him better as an anti-hero. I'm still not clear how he went from commanding Snake/Hawk not to kill innocents to killing his own allies for the evulz, so I'm glad he's back to being a well rounded character again.

[Kato]

I can't make assumptions. it makes me expect things that probably won't happen. better to not make any assumptions to keep my mind open so that when it actually happens, it does not clash with any pre-existing expectations and I can take it without bias.

and I can't tell you that you are wrong, because I can never be certain that I'm right, I can never be certain that anyone is right or wrong, unless its proven so.
I prefer uncertainty to making stupid assumptions and setting myself up for expectations that could be proven wrong at any time.

But expecting or assuming something isn't wrong... how can you not assume something, fr any possible things that is to appen I assume a variety of things, and though, I guess there is a certain event I might take to be the most probable that doesn't keep me from assuming other things...


ANYWAY I was also a bit confused why Sasuke was along for the hunt and I dare say: Yes, it doen't quite fit with continuity, but I'm willing t go along with it since apparently even little kids are sent on life threatening missions in Konoha.

[VanBuren]

Just because its subjective doesn't mean its real. Trolling generally is considered to be not showing resolution to an interaction appropriate to the build up eg. if the Mangaka spends a whole arc showing how strong/tough/whatever a villain is we expect the fight between the hero and villain to take some time and actually have some awesome things happen. If the hero just swats the villain aside or otherwise defeats them without us seeing the effort then that is trolling.

I can't say I follow the logic in starting from "it's subjective" and ending up with "you're wrong it is happening".

[Prime32]

I challenge someone to draw a pic of Sasuke in a labcoat and doctor-headgear, holding a Rod of Asclepius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_of_Asclepius).

[jindra34]

I can't say I follow the logic in starting from "it's subjective" and ending up with "you're wrong it is happening".

I don't recall ever saying that it was happening in Naruto (Bleach on the other hand...). In fact I don't get why people find Edo-Madara versus the Kages odd, given that Madara is one of the most hyped characters in the series and Kabuto said he had made 'improvements' or something along those lines.

[Lord Raziere]

But expecting or assuming something isn't wrong... how can you not assume something, fr any possible things that is to appen I assume a variety of things, and though, I guess there is a certain event I might take to be the most probable that doesn't keep me from assuming other things...



Simple. I assume that I'm not assuming anything.

*KABOOM*

I love the sound of exploding heads. Sounds like the music of paradox. :smallcool:

[Traab]

Remember, sasuke frigging IDOLIZED his big brother. Do you think its that unreasonable that he would have had an outfit made for him that was alot like his big brother itachis? It could be that itachi took on a simple job just for the chance to spend time with his little brother. I mean come on, its a boar, in any rational world, itachi could have killed it, gutted it, and rendered it down into its sellable parts, all in the time it took for sasuke to realize the boar was even there. Of course, im talking out of my ass, as I havent read the manga, so for all I know this was some sort of demon boar that fought like an elite jounin or something.

[Sotharsyl]

Remember, sasuke frigging IDOLIZED his big brother. Do you think its that unreasonable that he would have had an outfit made for him that was alot like his big brother itachis? It could be that itachi took on a simple job just for the chance to spend time with his little brother. I mean come on, its a boar, in any rational world, itachi could have killed it, gutted it, and rendered it down into its sellable parts, all in the time it took for sasuke to realize the boar was even there. Of course, im talking out of my ass, as I havent read the manga, so for all I know this was some sort of demon boar that fought like an elite jounin or something.

Either that pig has the Dire template and PC lvls, but not in high tier class, which I strongly believe or farmers in Naruto are more baddass then ninjas raising those animals every day for their whole lives :smallbiggrin:

Also what is with Sasuke and atacking giant animals first it was the bear now it's this boar somebody call PETA on him :smallyuk:

Poor Kabuto by the way:
Kabuto:"- I have moved beyond the limitations of a snake I am now a mighty majestic Dragon Sage!!!"
Sasuke:"Hey Ni-san does this remind you of that time we were hunting pigs back before I was a genin? "

[DiscipleofBob]

Also what is with Sasuke and atacking giant animals first it was the bear now it's this boar somebody call PETA on him :smallyuk:

At least he's not Gaara, wearing the skin of a tanuki.

Sure it was a giant demon tanuki...

and sure it was less wearing the skin and more hiding inside its demonic form...

But still, shame on them.

:smallbiggrin:

[Trixie]

So, since I missed last few chapters of Bleach and Naruto... What do you think is best (has better story/quality) to catch up on first?

Obligatory pony icon http://i.imgur.com/N2nfK.jpg

[jindra34]

So, since I missed last few chapters of Bleach and Naruto... What do you think is best (has better story/quality) to catch up on first?

Obligatory pony icon http://i.imgur.com/N2nfK.jpg
Definitely Naruto. Mainly due to Kubo still being Kubo and Masashi not.

[Drolyt]

So, since I missed last few chapters of Bleach and Naruto... What do you think is best (has better story/quality) to catch up on first?

Obligatory pony icon http://i.imgur.com/N2nfK.jpg
Naruto, no contest. Although I like Fairy Tail better than either.

[Kato]

Naruto, no contest. Although I like Fairy Tail better than either.

Seconded. Same goes for One Piece.

[Trixie]

I apologize, but I've tried to read both and found them worse than Bleach was at its lowest ^^"

[lord_khaine]

And that i dont understand, because both of them at their lower points is still better than most of what bleach is delivering.

[Drolyt]

And that i dont understand, because both of them at their lower points is still better than most of what bleach is delivering.
To be fair, I could never get into One Piece either. Something about it just annoys me.

[Kato]

Okay, I will admit I never really got into Bleach but from what I know it is inferior to Naruto and I feel both FT and OP are far better than Naruto, except you like things I dislike and vice versa. There's no accounting for personal preference but I personally have no idea why one would not like either if s/he enjoyed Naruto.

[lord_khaine]

To be fair, I could never get into One Piece either. Something about it just annoys me.

I thought we got rid of this "fair" concept years ago, because it were endangering the native troll population?

Still, i think it helps if you do like i do, and jump over the start who is a bit slow, and start with something like the alabasta arc, where the serie starts to get going.

[Traab]

Okay, I will admit I never really got into Bleach but from what I know it is inferior to Naruto and I feel both FT and OP are far better than Naruto, except you like things I dislike and vice versa. There's no accounting for personal preference but I personally have no idea why one would not like either if s/he enjoyed Naruto.

I started to get into bleach, but my netflix dvds ran out at the rescue rukia arc where ichigo flies into the prison place to fight her brother and shows that he wont just be stabbed to death with ease anymore. Honestly, the part that always bugged me was the ludicrous rate of improvement ichigo had. He goes from decent to good soul reaper able to handle most hollows, to being able to spank the crap out of the gatekeeper fellow, (who I assume is supposed to be good at his job) to handling lieutenants and then standing toe to toe with the captains and winning, all in the space of about a week or two. Its quite frankly kind of silly. I understand it was needed or else the story would have come to an abrupt end about 30 minutes into entering soul society, but it was still a bit much.

[Douglas]

I started to get into bleach, but my netflix dvds ran out at the rescue rukia arc where ichigo flies into the prison place to fight her brother and shows that he wont just be stabbed to death with ease anymore. Honestly, the part that always bugged me was the ludicrous rate of improvement ichigo had. He goes from decent to good soul reaper able to handle most hollows, to being able to spank the crap out of the gatekeeper fellow, (who I assume is supposed to be good at his job) to handling lieutenants and then standing toe to toe with the captains and winning, all in the space of about a week or two. Its quite frankly kind of silly. I understand it was needed or else the story would have come to an abrupt end about 30 minutes into entering soul society, but it was still a bit much.
I once read a description about how someone had an epiphany regarding Ichigo that suddenly made the show make sense - everyone has a Final Fantasy-style Limit Break (or maybe he just used that as an analogy just for Ichigo, I'm not sure), and Ichigo's Limit Break is "level up".

[Traab]

I once read a description about how someone had an epiphany regarding Ichigo that suddenly made the show make sense - everyone has a Final Fantasy-style Limit Break (or maybe he just used that as an analogy just for Ichigo, I'm not sure), and Ichigo's Limit Break is "level up".

He has a cheat code. Every time ichigo thinks that he cant give up, he increases a level. He also has auto heal materia. Its not much, but every time he is killed, he gets healed for enough to stand back up again and fight another round. Total hax, but what can you do? Honestly though, i think what makes it so annoying for ichigo, and not so much for every other anime hero of his type who does the exact same thing, is the strict rankings setup and how battles happen.

Take Naruto for example. He has beaten or survived against a wide range of opponents even from the start. However, i cant think of a time where he has gone from over matched to equal in an incredibly short time frame, barring kyuubi chakra which doesnt count. Unlike in naruto, its ichigos actual personal skill and raw power level that increases dramatically, with naruto, he has an outside source of power that gives him a trump when he cant win. He doesnt suddenly, and permanently, increase in the ninja ranks. He doesnt start a fight at genin level, and end it chunin and stay that way. He doesnt then later on that day reach jounin level then pick a fight with a sanin and fight him to a standstill.

[Giegue]

Indeed, but Naruto still has, as of recent, had the fastest powerup of anybody in the manga, even morose then Sasuke who used to be the undisputed king of fast powerups in Naruto. By simply talking to Kurama, Naruto has gone from being below Tobi's level to making the guy so nervous he's visibly sweating, and this was a guy who was supposed to be "the darkness" itself, and a strong candidate for final villain. With his recent powerup Naruto has made "The darkness" that is Tobi go from a guy who was pretty much a shoe-in for "final boss" of the manga to a guy who looks more and more like an arc villain who won't last past this fight each time we see him. Now, that is NOT to say that Naruto is anywhere near Ichigo level in "level up" ridiculousness, but his recent powerup, for me, was just too sudden, and that's not to mention that his previous powerup right before that which was also quickly had him making CLONES that where well above Jonin-level.

Anyway....So we've seen one of Kabuto's Dragon jutsus....a light screen. Ok-ish I guess, but I still want to see and expect more of Kabuto before he goes down. I'm personally digging the dragon theme he has going on now and hope he uses more dragon-related jutsus.....Naruto needs more dragons...it's the one thing it's lacked....and now we finally have it....I just hope that Kabuto and his dragon-ness is not Uchiha-troll'ed but knowing Kishi and his Uchiha fetish chances are high that he will be.

...Also, is it just me or do any of you think that somehow Edo Madara will live on after Kabuto? I mean, Tobi is looking more and more like his number is up and I don't think Kishi would turn Sauce into an evil mastermind...so if Kabuto goes down now who else would be left to be Big Bad beyond a reborn Madara? I mean, it has been heavily implied that Madara had a hand in forming the Moon's Eye plan and was quite possibly Tobi's superior or sensei, so if Kabuto and Tobi bite it Madara would make a logical Big Bad and could enter into a Sith-like master-apprentice Uchiha alliance of doom with Sasuke. Personally I'd prefer Tobi or Kabuto to be Big Bad, but sadly it looks as if Tobi's days are numbed and Kabuto is fighting a team with Itachi on it.(nothing else needs to be said about that.)....and I can't think of anybody other then Madara or possibly Sasuke that could fill the Big Bad void if both Tobi and Kabuto are defeated this Arc.

The only other possibilities would be some kind of crazy, messed-up contrived plot device like the Elder Son of Rikudou being the man behind the man behind the man who sat in the shadows and manipulated Madara, Tobi ect....or heaven forbid Minato having been evil the whole time and having manipulated everything so he would revive himself with HAXX power through Naruto so he and his son could rule the world together...or something else lame like that.

[jindra34]

Giegue: Unless we have Itachi horribly screw up his second pre-death speech with Sasuke I doubt we will be entering another major conflict arc. This seems like a good arc to use as the climax followed by what will probably be a long conclusion as we settle all the little left over bits (the captured tailed beasts, the state of the world, the successorship of Rikudou, and everyone's fates), yeah that could take a while and be interesting. But to one up Tobi and Kabuto as villians would require some massive craziness, and I trust Masashi not to do that.

[Nekura]

Yeah. The Boar mission thing was pretty neat...though it makes me wonder why the heck little Sasuke was in anbu cloths and on an seemingly official mission as AN ACADEMY STUDENT.. As far as I know he never joined Root/ANBU and was not even a Genin until after the massacre. Did Kishi once again forget all about part 1? Or was Itachi's charisma and clout great enough to convince ANBU/his superiors to take a academy student on a mission with him?

Or maybe the boar was not even an official mission and just an odd job Itachi was doing for some rich client and he decided to take his little brother along...that still doesn't explain Sasuke's anbu getup though.... :smallconfused:

No the real issue is the whole boar thing makes no sense. Itachi says to not take it's life, if they are not there to kill it arrows are a weird weapon choice. What was the objective with the boar? Itachi distratced it with explosions and Sasuke tried to shoot it's tail. But the boar is so large the arrow wouldn't be long enough to pin it's tail to the ground like he did with dragonmaru's tail to the stalagtite. Why would you train to be able to hit a boar's tail with an arrow and a stationary boar at that. I can see trying to hit something small like a tail on a moving object but again arrows are weird because they are not a typical ninja weapon. All in all IMO it's a poorly thought out flashback to counter the statement that Itachi is untrustworthy and him and Sasuke wouldn't be able to fight well together.

[Silva Stormrage]

if Tobi's days are numbed and Kabuto is fighting a team with Itachi on it.(nothing else needs to be said about that.)....and I can't think of anybody other then Madara or possibly Sasuke that could fill the Big Bad void if both Tobi and Kabuto are defeated this Arc.

Though Kabuto is ALSO fighting a team with Sauske on it. While I doubt Sauske will die/be defeated by anyone beside Naruto (Regardless if Naruto is actually able to kill Sauske or not). Kabuto has already shown that he will target Sauske before Itachi. A situation where Itachi sacrifices himself for Sauske would not be too unrealistic. Though I would say Sauske would be royally screwed after that.

[Giegue]

True, but Kabuto won't win this fight simply because of how important Naruto vs. Sasuke is to the manga. Having Sasuke possessed by Kabuto vs. Naruto would just not work since Naruto vs. Sasuke himself, not somebody else using his body, has been such a built up fight that Sasuke(and to an extent Naruto, though he could still lose the fox possibly if Tobi pulls something out his butt(though that is not likely)) has a nigh' invulnerable plot shield to protect him from basically anything. Also, Itachi, along with Minato, is one of the two biggest Mary Sue's in the manga...so I doubt he'll sacrifice himself, though it would be IC. He will "die" when Edo is canceled, as Edo Tensei WILL be cancled unless Kishi intends to make Madara the new Big Bad since Madara is SO powerful that pretty much nobody can stop him at this point sans maybe current Naruto...leaving Madara alive would just totally warp the story and demand that somebody deal with Madara.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

New Chapter.

Not much going on (Sasuke's motive for attacking Leaf was pretty obvious), except for the revelation of yet another hax eye jutsu. Hopefully we'll see it in the next chapter.

Itachi seems pretty indifferent towards Sasuke's aim of destroying Leaf though. Maybe being dead does that to you.

[Traab]

Whats the new hax jutsu this time? No wait, let me guess, after all, it can only be one of two things. Either its the perfect counter to whatever new skill set kabuto has come up with, or its yet another ultimate attack that does something different from the other ultimate attacks they already have stacked up like cord wood. I will further guess that it is some sort of combined, "requires at least 4 mangekyo to activate" technique, meant to show the true ultimate power of the uchiha comes from working together. Teamwork is the magic word in this series after all.

[Socratov]

well, seeing izanami and izanagi are a pair of gods associated with the creation of japan and destiny the effects should be similarly themed. Izanagi is a technigue which let's you alter destiny (like the final say the man had in earlier times as a result of a patriarchical society).

However, (especially) in ancient times the woman was associated with creation (of life etc.). so where Izanagi changes destiny, (as Itachi said) Izanami should straight create it. To clarify, it should be something like a dominate effect over the universe altering the future (effectively creating destiny instead of altering it).

[TheFallenOne]

I agree. Izanagi altered a past event. Izanami will force a future event to happen.

Now, the eye sacrifice thing... Izanagi made the eye used close forever. See the problem yet?
Sasuke has Itachi's eyes. If Edotachi uses Izanami it may affect Sasuke as well.

[Traab]

If izanami creates life, then maybe itachi will come back from the dead for real? Even if he comes back blind he would still be fairly badass. And too be honest, considering his whole backstory and all, he got a pretty damn raw deal out of life and deserves a reward like that.

[Madara]

Interesting theory, but it probably won't happen. Cause then Sasuke would be much weaker without his Eye Hax.

But, I'll take Itachi having a cool new move over sasuke any day.


Is it just me or is Sasuke dead weight in this fight so far?

[Fredaintdead]

Is it just me or is Sasuke dead weight in this fight so far?

Yep, and it's glorious. :smallbiggrin:

[Traab]

Meh, sasuke is frequently disappointing in his battles. The biggest example, though there are others, would have to be the sasuke versus itachi fight. I may be wrong, correct me if I am, but wasnt itachi half blind, dying of an illness, and wanting sasuke to kill him? AND SASUKE STILL LOST?! Itachi died on his freaking feet while sasuke was a quivering ball of terror barely able to move.

Or take the first VotE fight between him and naruto, iirc, naruto had an edge over sasuke at the start. It wasnt until sasuke started tapping into the curse seal that things escalated. But base skill versus base skill, sasuke, the rookie of the year, was losing to the dead last. A guy who had been fighting, chasing, and tracking down sasuke for hours while he got a nice easy lift and a power boost in a barrel.

[Kato]

Now, the eye sacrifice thing... Izanagi made the eye used close forever. See the problem yet?
Sasuke has Itachi's eyes. If Edotachi uses Izanami it may affect Sasuke as well.
Don't think that will happen... As in: Don't think what happens to the zombie eyes affect the new user, otherwise I don't think Tobi would have dared using Nagato if he could have lost his Rinnegans. Also, it would be dumb.



Meh, sasuke is frequently disappointing in his battles. The biggest example, though there are others, would have to be the sasuke versus itachi fight. I may be wrong, correct me if I am, but wasnt itachi half blind, dying of an illness, and wanting sasuke to kill him? AND SASUKE STILL LOST?! Itachi died on his freaking feet while sasuke was a quivering ball of terror barely able to move.
I can't belive I'm defending Sasuke but he didn't have mangekyous then and this means no Amaterasu, no Susanoo, just pure basic skill. It's no shame to lose this fight.


Or take the first VotE fight between him and naruto, iirc, naruto had an edge over sasuke at the start. It wasnt until sasuke started tapping into the curse seal that things escalated. But base skill versus base skill, sasuke, the rookie of the year, was losing to the dead last. A guy who had been fighting, chasing, and tracking down sasuke for hours while he got a nice easy lift and a power boost in a barrel.
IIRC, Sasuke dominated the battle until Naruto tapped into the demon fox chakra. He had a hole in his chest. Then Naruto was equal even to powered up Sasuke but base skills he lost.


I like how Kabuto is pulling the strings or at least trying to but apparently he is fighting a lost cause against Sasuke's love.
Concerning Izanami... (I shouldn't have seen Brave 10 last season) didn't Izanagi have a more general meaning? *googles* Hm, apparently there is not much to be found easily. But yeah, Izanami might create.. stuff. Didn't Tobi mention it as well recently? When the sage created the tailed beasts or something?

[darksolitaire]

So, Uchihas have another overpowered eye genjutsu called Tsukuyomi Kotoamatsukami Izanagi Izanami? Sorry, but this just seems silly.

[Madara]

I find it fitting. Things in Narutothe Uchiha clan come in pairs:
Madara and his brother
Two techniques unlocked from mangekyo sharingan, Super armor and fire-eyes :smallamused: (No I did not forget about the nightmare realm. But seriously, the sharingan stopped being about Gengutsu a long time ago)

Plus there's Yin and Yang Chakra


I don't feel like this new technique is too much of a stretch. Plus, I enjoy Itachi. Ironic how the mighty eternal sharingan doesn't match up to Itachi's normal :smallbiggrin:

[Giegue]

Actually, we don't know how powerful the eternal is in the hands of a MASTER. Sasuke just unlocked the darn thing. He's hardly versed in it's capabilities and powers. Madara, however, has mastered it and was considered godly powerful because of it, yet in his current fight he has yet to show it's true potential and has been using his mokuton almost exclusively, probably because he did not get to test it out in life and is thoroughly enjoying getting to crush his enemies with the techniques his old rival Hashirama got to use on him. If Madara got serious in his fight, we would probably see just how frightening the EMS can be, but since Madara's sadly going to bite it after this Itachi and Sauce vs. Kabuto fight, we probably will never get to see the EMS in the hands of a master since we all know Sasuke has to get a powerup beyond EMS to even stand up to Super Kyuubi Naruto.

[MammonAzrael]

I just moved a set up my computer again. I went to check the newest chapter and the images aren't appearing. :smallfrown: Anyone have an idea why or a suggestion?

[Drolyt]

I just moved a set up my computer again.
Sorry, I have no idea what this means?

I went to check the newest chapter and the images aren't appearing. :smallfrown: Anyone have an idea why or a suggestion?
No clue, but they aren't appearing for me either. Google for a different site. At least for me they work on every single other site but that one. If that doesn't help I'll need some more information. What operating system are you using, what browser, and what all doesn't work?

[Sotharsyl]

So, Uchihas have another overpowered eye genjutsu called Tsukuyomi Kotoamatsukami Izanagi Izanami? Sorry, but this just seems silly.

It"s just Japanese Mithology there"s a lot of gods ergo there will be lots of cool concepts for jutsus.

Let"s say you're a greek comic book writter and you're writing this comic book where one of your characters uses spells and he has 3 top spells caled Zeus,Hades and Neptune can you immagine how hard it would be for yourself to stop afterwards from sneaking ina spell referencing Hera, then Persephone then Demeter then Apolo and of course Ares vs Athena etc.

But moving on, this chapter Two Uchihas walk into a bar... :smallbiggrin:

Also classic Sasuke probably the first time he"s in a bar and he wanted to start a bar fight :smallcool:

[Giegue]

Hey, we don't 100% know that Tobi's an Uchiha. For all we know he could be a Zetsu clone or an Uzumaki....or some weird incarnation of the Jubi. However, the most likely candidates as of now are probably Obito or Izuna, so chances are high he is an Uchiha under that mask.

[Madara]

Hey, we don't 100% know that Tobi's an Uchiha. For all we know he could be a Zetsu clone or an Uzumaki....or some weird incarnation of the Jubi. However, the most likely candidates as of now are probably Obito or Izuna, so chances are high he is an Uchiha under that mask.

.....Not Obito....:smallannoyed:

But seriously, Itachi said that 'madara'(Our tobi) was a uchiha, so I'm gonna stick to him being an Uchiha. The other options are possible, but I'm gonna say he's definitely an Uchiha. He knows too much about the Sharingan, and Izangi is a secret technique that I doubt outsiders would know about.

[Socratov]

well, to be honest, it is said that only a part of the kyuubi's chakra was transferred into naruto, nothing was said aobu the rest so that could still roam free somehwere and maybe take form of madara since he last controlledinteracted with it (excluding minato ofcourse :D) it could hypothetically absorbed wome of madara's knowledge and after he died his eyes and started on his own, bound on a revenge for mankind after how mankind treated him. It would explain why the Kyuubi wasn't his usual self when Naruto fought him...

[Soras Teva Gee]

Hey, we don't 100% know that Tobi's an Uchiha. For all we know he could be a Zetsu clone or an Uzumaki....or some weird incarnation of the Jubi. However, the most likely candidates as of now are probably Obito or Izuna, so chances are high he is an Uchiha under that mask.

Does Obito even work on a timeline? Mind you the manga doesn't keep good track of these things but do we know how separated Kakashi Gaiden was from Naruto's birth?

I've always thought that Tobi's identity isn't a "solvable" mystery myself (this was before and then after "Madara" which screamed arse pull) and that the most likely path has been he's exactly what he's no said... he's nobody. Obviously he was born someone, but its not significant who he is and everything he has is essentially stolen.

Look how early the concept of body looting was introduced and how much its been used, I don't think there is any need for Tobi to be an Uchiha or anyone siginificant. Which may be the point, he's the antithesis of all these Sage of the Six Paths descendants by being absolutely insignificant.

[Xondoure]

well, to be honest, it is said that only a part of the kyuubi's chakra was transferred into naruto, nothing was said aobu the rest so that could still roam free somehwere and maybe take form of madara since he last controlledinteracted with it (excluding minato ofcourse :D) it could hypothetically absorbed wome of madara's knowledge and after he died his eyes and started on his own, bound on a revenge for mankind after how mankind treated him. It would explain why the Kyuubi wasn't his usual self when Naruto fought him...

The rest of the Kyubii's chakra was explicitly sealed away permanently in the belly of the death god technique that killed Minato, the Third, and Orochimaru's arms.

[Socratov]

thanx for reminding, i forgot about that... :smallsigh:

anyway, i hope they demasl him soon... im getting tired of all the intrigue :smallsigh:

[Giegue]

Well, Tobi being a new character under the mask would be anti-climatic, to say the least. To keep him hidden for so long only for his face to be totally new would just be very.....well...anti-climatic. Thats not to say such a thing won't happen as Kishi has done some very anti-climatic things in the past but needless to say with Tobi's identity being something so centeral to the manga he should at the very least be somebody we've heard of before in some way.

The most likely candidates that I have heard are Izuna, Obito and Fugaku(Sasuke's dad), though I've also seen Kagami Uchiha, who was basically just a VERY minor character that was a student of Tobirama mentioned as a possibility. Less mainstream ones I have seen that are still interesting are the Uzumaki clan leader/an Uzumaki, A Zetsu clone of Madara or the Jubi itself in some shape or form. Either way, it's very difficult to pick any one and say that Tobi is X person and we won't know for sure until the mask comes off, but I hope it's at least somebody we have seen or at the least heard about.

[AtlanteanTroll]

I think the reason people's usual sites aren't working is because a push from Jump for scanlators to take down licensed work. Yeah.

[Kato]

.....Not Obito....:smallannoyed:

Oh come on, what with the Obito hate?


Does Obito even work on a timeline? Mind you the manga doesn't keep good track of these things but do we know how separated Kakashi Gaiden was from Naruto's birth?

Well, for a long time people were questioning this but since in the anime Kakashi and Guy were shown to be grown up during the Naruto's birth Flashback (or grown up enough) it is possible timeline wise.

I won't be angry or disappointed if it's not Obito, and I won't they there are many proves towards it but unless something new happens I will keep him as my number one guess :smalltongue:



Well, Tobi being a new character under the mask would be anti-climatic, to say the least. To keep him hidden for so long only for his face to be totally new would just be very.....well...anti-climatic. Thats not to say such a thing won't happen as Kishi has done some very anti-climatic things in the past but needless to say with Tobi's identity being something so centeral to the manga he should at the very least be somebody we've heard of before in some way.


When was Naruto ever anti-climatic? :smallconfused: I won't ignore the possibility of Tobi being nobody but I think it is very unlikely.

[Madara]

I don't hate Obito, I just don't believe that there's enough any evidence for him being Tobi. The best I've heard is "His teleport is similar to Kakashi's Kamui." Which makes me point out that multiple uchiha could have similar mangekyo sharingan techniques. And there is one panel where Kakashi makes it seem like he know Tobi.

In the end, I think we shouldn't bother trying to figure out who Tobi is, because it doesn't look like we'll get an answer soon.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Oh come on, what with the Obito hate?

We'd like at least one Uchiha to not be a total overpowered ****-wad? Oddly wanting him dead is akin to love and respect here.

Also it began with a play on spelling and a lot of hurr hurr hurr laughing well before Tobi was revealed as the mastmind.


Well, for a long time people were questioning this but since in the anime Kakashi and Guy were shown to be grown up during the Naruto's birth Flashback (or grown up enough) it is possible timeline wise.


Found it the shot and it's canon, Chapter 503. Now looking at it... while possibly older Kakashi is still definitely a teenager not an adult. He's maybe a little older looking in the anime shot plus it adds a vest but I see no real difference in the manga shot to his age in Kakashi Gaiden. Not the best guide for sure but there it is

Which matches with the Third Shinobi World War proceeding the Kyuubi attack closely. And would require a lot of powering up for (presumably) having no teachers.

Also worth mentioning the problems with this can easily be lies but this would make Nagato considerably older then Obito because he was orphaned and with Jiraiya contemporary to the Second Shinobi World War and grown/crippled contemporary to the Third. Easy to have Tobi spew another complete lie but his claim to have given Nagato the Rinnegan, I have to think there was at least something more to that then coming on the scene years later.

[Madara]

We're starting to have a lot of questions that need answers, and we are being taunted. "Who am I, I am no one." :smallmad:

On the bright side, the questions keep me interested.

[nazgulnine]

We're starting to have a lot of questions that need answers, and we are being taunted. "Who am I, I am no one." :smallmad:

On the bright side, the questions keep me interested.

There're a couple of things I like about new Naruto chapters. One of them is contemplating on who or what the hell Tobi is supposed to be. I honestly couldn't give a rat's ass about the answer, but the questioning is fun. Looking back at previous chapters, checking consistencies, all that jazz. I like the idea of Obito solely because it makes Kakashi, a minor character who was originally hyped up as a super-powerful character, much more relevant.

Another thing I like: Kabuto's echoing of one of the series' former major villains. I'm nostalgia'ing hard, because reading this years ago I thought to myself, "how horribly creepy, yet interesting this guy is!"
Some of my favorite quirks about Orochimaru... The man shouted at his dying enemy: "MY ARMS!!! GIVE ME BACK MY ARMS!!! AND THEN DIE!!"
Also.... he had four of his elite-mooks bring Sasuke to him in a wooden barrel. A wooden barrel. And to top it off, they tell him it'll give him tremendous power. Man... Sasuke wasn't even the least bit suspicious. He just shrugs a little "you guys seem legit" and gets in the bucket.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Kakashi, a minor character

What are you smoking and can I have some?

[Drolyt]

What are you smoking and can I have some?
Eh, that statement is somewhat understandable, since Kakashi is Naruto-speak for Worf (Wolverine is also an acceptable translation).

[Traab]

Some of my favorite quirks about Orochimaru... The man shouted at his dying enemy: "MY ARMS!!! GIVE ME BACK MY ARMS!!! AND THEN DIE!!"
Also.... he had four of his elite-mooks bring Sasuke to him in a wooden barrel. A wooden barrel. And to top it off, they tell him it'll give him tremendous power. Man... Sasuke wasn't even the least bit suspicious. He just shrugs a little "you guys seem legit" and gets in the bucket.

Heh, I liked him because he was so easy to mock in fanfiction. All it took was a SLIGHT exaggeration to turn him into a homosexual pedophile. Or even no exaggeration at all to just have naruto or someone make that claim to tick him off. "I mean really! You run around the forest giving hickeys to 12 year old boys, trying to get them to run away with you, and your admitted greatest desire is to possess his body! What else are we SUPPOSED to think about you?"

He was creepy, sneaky, powerful, and had an at least somewhat interesting personal goal. Honestly? I thought his obsession with the sharingan probably slowed him down in his quest more than anything else. I mean, he is a fricking sanin, how hard would it be to physically memorize the handsigns to a new jutsu and use it properly? How many months or years did he waste preparing for the chance to take over sasuke so he could have three glorious years of lazy jutsu copying? He created a damn hidden village, spent years setting up plots and elaborate schemes, and all this time he could have spent capturing any ninja he heard had a jutsu he didnt know yet and forcing them to give up the handsigns. Once again, he is a freaking sanin. Noone short of the various kages or jinchuriki should have been able to escape him. Just keep body jumping as you go and eventually you would know "all" jutsu that exist.

[lord_khaine]

Actualy, it kinda made sense for him to want the Sharingan after Itachi demonstrated just how insanely broken it were to him.

[Giegue]

I had a theory regarding Oro's obsession with the sharingan, actually, focused around the scroll Suigetsu found. My theory was that, since Oro wanted to learn EVERY jutsu, that he was after not just the sharingan, but the Rinne'gan. I mean, I highly doubt Oro had every elemental affinity, and if he wanted to learn ALL jutsus he would need to be able to use every elemental affinity and the only way we know of to do that is the Rinne'gan. Since we have seen the Rinne'gan was in fact an evolution of the Sharingan, possibly requiring Senju DNA, it would make sense that Oro was so sharingan obsessed because he NEEDED the sharingan, to become the rinne'gan, in order to actually be able to learn every jutsu. This would also explain why Oro was experimenting with Hashirama's DNA if the sharingan-> rinne'gan evolution requires senju DNA. Also, my theory was that the scroll Suigetsu found has the instructions for turning the sharingan into the rinne'gan.

This, however, is mostly just logic-based speculation on my part, so take it at face value because it's probably not true.

[Prime32]

I had a theory regarding Oro's obsession with the sharingan, actually, focused around the scroll Suigetsu found. My theory was that, since Oro wanted to learn EVERY jutsu, that he was after not just the sharingan, but the Rinne'gan.Didn't Kabuto say something about this?

[Traab]

Actualy, it kinda made sense for him to want the Sharingan after Itachi demonstrated just how insanely broken it were to him.

True, but didnt he constantly mention that he wanted the sharingan specifically to copy every jutsu in the world?

[Lord Raziere]

Heh, I liked him because he was so easy to mock in fanfiction. All it took was a SLIGHT exaggeration to turn him into a homosexual pedophile. Or even no exaggeration at all to just have naruto or someone make that claim to tick him off. "I mean really! You run around the forest giving hickeys to 12 year old boys, trying to get them to run away with you, and your admitted greatest desire is to possess his body! What else are we SUPPOSED to think about you?"

He was creepy, sneaky, powerful, and had an at least somewhat interesting personal goal. Honestly? I thought his obsession with the sharingan probably slowed him down in his quest more than anything else. I mean, he is a fricking sanin, how hard would it be to physically memorize the handsigns to a new jutsu and use it properly? How many months or years did he waste preparing for the chance to take over sasuke so he could have three glorious years of lazy jutsu copying? He created a damn hidden village, spent years setting up plots and elaborate schemes, and all this time he could have spent capturing any ninja he heard had a jutsu he didnt know yet and forcing them to give up the handsigns. Once again, he is a freaking sanin. Noone short of the various kages or jinchuriki should have been able to escape him. Just keep body jumping as you go and eventually you would know "all" jutsu that exist.

perhaps he is an optimizer who wanted to take advantage of those three years in some way. he is a genius, he could've figured out a way to preserve the eyes or something, or get all jutsu NOW if only he had the Sharingan.

The Sharingan is hax dude. I wouldn't be surprised if Orochimaru figured out some way to make it even more hax than it already is and allow one to copy all jutsu in the world at once or something in some twisted doomsday villain scheme.

I mean really, Orochimaru just seems exactly the kind of hammy villain to design some big device that magnifies the Sharingan to infinite vision across all space and time, get inside it then proclaim
"As soon as my Infinite Oracular Sharingan Machine finishes charging up, my vision will be expanded across ALL SPACE AND TIME! I WILL SEE ALL JUTSU THAT EVER EXISTED AND EVER WILL! EVERY JUTSU! EVER! I WILL BECOME GREATER THAN EVEN THE GOD OF SHINOBI! I WILL BE ALL-POWERFUL! I WILL KNOW ALL JUTSU, IN THE WOOOORRRRRRLLLLD!!!"

[Drolyt]

I always assumed that Orochimaru was lying when he said he wanted the Sharingan to learn every jutsu in the world, or at least bending the truth. Given how much he and Kabuto knew about Tobi, Madara, Akatsuki, and pretty much everything else, he probably wanted Sasuke's body so that he could defeat Itachi, take his eyes, gain the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan, and then the Rinnegan. To unlock the Mangekyo Sharingan in the first place he probably meant to kill Jiraiya, the closest thing to a friend he's ever had.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I had a theory regarding Oro's obsession with the sharingan, actually, focused around the scroll Suigetsu found. My theory was that, since Oro wanted to learn EVERY jutsu, that he was after not just the sharingan, but the Rinne'gan. I mean, I highly doubt Oro had every elemental affinity, and if he wanted to learn ALL jutsus he would need to be able to use every elemental affinity and the only way we know of to do that is the Rinne'gan. Since we have seen the Rinne'gan was in fact an evolution of the Sharingan, possibly requiring Senju DNA, it would make sense that Oro was so sharingan obsessed because he NEEDED the sharingan, to become the rinne'gan, in order to actually be able to learn every jutsu. This would also explain why Oro was experimenting with Hashirama's DNA if the sharingan-> rinne'gan evolution requires senju DNA. Also, my theory was that the scroll Suigetsu found has the instructions for turning the sharingan into the rinne'gan.

This, however, is mostly just logic-based speculation on my part, so take it at face value because it's probably not true.

I think you have something there, presumably even with Sharingan you would eventually run into elemental limitations. (Which almost retroactively explains why its mega-manning hasn't come up since forever)

Raises the question of why he was after Itachi/Sasuke and not Pain though. I mean presumably he knew him by Akatuski hologram where it was visible. Then again maybe he considered the Rinne'gan unassailable and so decided to go down a rung, then failing that with Itachi sought Sasuke.

Either way is it just me or is Kishimoto totally regretting killing off Orochimaru right now or what? Ol snake is dangerously close to looking like the weakest Sanin right now.

[Madara]

I'm thinking that Oro wasn't good enough for our evil organization.

[Traab]

I think you have something there, presumably even with Sharingan you would eventually run into elemental limitations. (Which almost retroactively explains why its mega-manning hasn't come up since forever)

Raises the question of why he was after Itachi/Sasuke and not Pain though. I mean presumably he knew him by Akatuski hologram where it was visible. Then again maybe he considered the Rinne'gan unassailable and so decided to go down a rung, then failing that with Itachi sought Sasuke.

Either way is it just me or is Kishimoto totally regretting killing off Orochimaru right now or what? Ol snake is dangerously close to looking like the weakest Sanin right now.

Meh, kakashi had no problem using water, fire, lightning, earth, and ice jutsus all pre shippuden. So I think orochimaru would have at least been able to copy the jutsus, even if he hadnt been able to use them directly, like Mei and her lava release techniques, he might have had to be next to an erupting volcano to use them, but he could have. As for Pein, he might have tried to go after pein next if he had beaten itachi. You have to level up before you fight the final boss after all, and as far as he knew, pein was the boss. Was "tobi" even around when orochimaru was a member?

[Madara]

Was "tobi" even around when orochimaru was a member?

He was, but he wasn't in the organization. He was around doing his own work and such.

[Traab]

He was, but he wasn't in the organization. He was around doing his own work and such.

Thats what I meant, he wasnt a part of akatsuki, or even on orchimarus radar at the time of the rochi/tachi fight. I think he was busy controlling/being the mizukage at the time or something.

[darksolitaire]

Meh, kakashi had no problem using water, fire, lightning, earth, and ice jutsus all pre shippuden.

He has natural affinity for electricity, and can also use earth and water. He only uses Fire in anime, not manga. This brings his elements total to three, same as Mei.

[Drolyt]

Thats what I meant, he wasnt a part of akatsuki, or even on orchimarus radar at the time of the rochi/tachi fight. I think he was busy controlling/being the mizukage at the time or something.
Apparently Oro knew all about Tobi though. He might not have figured that out until after his defection however, so you might be right.

[Xondoure]

RE: elemental jutsus. I thought it was pretty clear that jutsus being restricted based on elemental affinity outside of rare bloodlines (ice, wood, etc) was a total retcon. No?

[Soras Teva Gee]

RE: elemental jutsus. I thought it was pretty clear that jutsus being restricted based on elemental affinity outside of rare bloodlines (ice, wood, etc) was a total retcon. No?

Totally so but its not nessecarily inconsistent though either.

I also thinked it played the 'Naruto is an idiot' card past its limits there introducing them too. Really that late in the game he still doesn't know anything, yeesh. Given that all you need is a piece of freaking paper you'd think elemental affinity would be something every ninja would learn right off.

[Traab]

He has natural affinity for electricity, and can also use earth and water. He only uses Fire in anime, not manga. This brings his elements total to three, same as Mei.

Yeah, and Mei had two bloodlines related to elemental jutsus to make that happen.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Yeah, and Mei had two bloodlines related to elemental jutsus to make that happen.

Kakashi hasn't shown any ability to combine them however which is what you consistently need something unusual for. If I recall the exposition correctly while everyone has a primary affinity, you can use maybe a few more... just not all of them.

For all we might call it an informed ability Kakashi is supposed to be an exceptional ninja so have three categories of techniques isn't that big a deal.

[Traab]

Kakashi hasn't shown any ability to combine them however which is what you consistently need something unusual for. If I recall the exposition correctly while everyone has a primary affinity, you can use maybe a few more... just not all of them.

For all we might call it an informed ability Kakashi is supposed to be an exceptional ninja so have three categories of techniques isn't that big a deal.

He used ice jutsu in the land of snow. He couldnt create the ice, but he could manipulate what was there. That seems to imply that you need a bloodline to directly create the element, but that its possible to manipulate the element if its already there. So theoretically, you could use mei's lava release techniques by standing next to an active volcano.

[Socratov]

Totally so but its not nessecarily inconsistent though either.

I also thinked it played the 'Naruto is an idiot' card past its limits there introducing them too. Really that late in the game he still doesn't know anything, yeesh. Given that all you need is a piece of freaking paper you'd think elemental affinity would be something every ninja would learn right off.

ehm... no, It is known that using elements is not that easy and consumes a lot of chakra. Sasuke getting taught about fire technigues is because he was a child prodigy, with charingan hax and it was clear he had great control over his chakra. Naruto learned it later, and quickly blew up the wind technigues poring his unusual haxed max chakra in it. It is acutally typically shonen: the main protagonist has way too much gasoline in it's allready freaking large tank, but consumes at least 5 times as much as the next average joe in terms of efficiëncy. the redeeming feature for this is stamina and the ability to go rocket tag...

[Soras Teva Gee]

He used ice jutsu in the land of snow. He couldnt create the ice, but he could manipulate what was there. That seems to imply that you need a bloodline to directly create the element, but that its possible to manipulate the element if its already there. So theoretically, you could use mei's lava release techniques by standing next to an active volcano.

You seem to be operating under the delusion that this is an anime series with movies and not a manga...

[VanBuren]

He used ice jutsu in the land of snow. He couldnt create the ice, but he could manipulate what was there. That seems to imply that you need a bloodline to directly create the element, but that its possible to manipulate the element if its already there. So theoretically, you could use mei's lava release techniques by standing next to an active volcano.

Pretty sure the movies are about as canon as the fillers.

[Drolyt]

RE: elemental jutsus. I thought it was pretty clear that jutsus being restricted based on elemental affinity outside of rare bloodlines (ice, wood, etc) was a total retcon. No?
I was under the impression that the element restriction was just a practical one. You have one element you have an affinity for, and learning that one is hard enough. You can learn others, but it is very difficult. At least as far as I understand there is nothing physically preventing a Ninja from learning all 5 elements, but it would take a huge amount of time for very little gain; even a single element offers extraordinary versatility, no one really needs more than 2 or 3, especially when there are a lot of effective techniques that don't use any element. I suppose it might be useful for someone with the Sharingan, because they don't have to worry about the specifics of different Jutsus once they've mastered the basics. Also, one of the Rinnegan's powers is apparently to give you an affinity for every element, or maybe it just gives instant mastery, I'm not clear on that. Besides Pain and the Sage of the Six Paths I think that Sarutobi (aka the Third Hokage) and Orochimaru must have been able to use all 5 elements, otherwise Orochimaru's dream of learning every jutsu was pointless and they were lying when they said that Sarutobi knew every jutsu in Konoha.

[Douglas]

I think everyone is technically able to use all 5 basic elements, affinity for an element just makes it easier - and the high end really powerful techniques are so difficult that the affinity difficulty reduction is almost required to bring it into the achievable range.

[Kato]

I think everyone is technically able to use all 5 basic elements, affinity for an element just makes it easier - and the high end really powerful techniques are so difficult that the affinity difficulty reduction is almost required to bring it into the achievable range.

This is probably the best explanation for most stuff we have seen so far... I won't go through the whole manga/anime again to check it but I don't think especially pre-shipuuden they stuck to the elemental rules...

Also, I hate it when we have to accept different continuities for manga/anime/movies....

[Sotharsyl]

RE: elemental jutsus. I thought it was pretty clear that jutsus being restricted based on elemental affinity outside of rare bloodlines (ice, wood, etc) was a total retcon. No?

I was under the impression, and I seem to be the only one but whatever that elemental ninjutsu works like this,translated into gamming terms:

Jutsus come with levels: E,D,C,B,A,S.

Anyone can pay the xp and buy E and D levels of any element.

To get further you have to have the "[Element] Mastery" to buy the C,B,A,S.

Normal ninja at character creation choose a element as their natural afinnity, let's say Shino chose Earth he would then get to buy "Earth Mastery" for 50 xp then time passes and he's almost at the level where he'l be made a jounin and he wants to diversify into Water he can buy "Water Mastery" for 350 xp even more time passes and he wants to learn "Fire Mastery" but that's 2500 xp and he says screw that I'm going to buy 5 more A level bug jutsus for that xp because I already have the "Bug User" feat from chargen.

Now for Sasuke's player among the 250 pg of Uchiha rules there is "All Uchiha have the "Fire Mastery" feat for free this does not count towards your free element at birth." so he picks lightning, or in more mithological terms void or sky, and when the time comes that Kakashi wants to teach him Chidori Sasuke suck it up and pays 50 xp for "Lighting Mastery" then buys Chidori.


I think you have something there, presumably even with Sharingan you would eventually run into elemental limitations. (Which almost retroactively explains why its mega-manning hasn't come up since forever)

Raises the question of why he was after Itachi/Sasuke and not Pain though. I mean presumably he knew him by Akatuski hologram where it was visible. Then again maybe he considered the Rinne'gan unassailable and so decided to go down a rung, then failing that with Itachi sought Sasuke.

Either way is it just me or is Kishimoto totally regretting killing off Orochimaru right now or what? Ol snake is dangerously close to looking like the weakest Sanin right now.

I allways went with the ideea that the Sannin were rougly balanced against each other so even when Jiraya was busting out Sage Mode I was sure that Tsundade and Oro had things on that level but didn"t use them yet, Kishi's really consistent with sticking to themes so I wasn't worried he would go and declare X Sannin is way stronger then the rest.

As for the more feat based fans for the longest time Tsunade was the one who looked the weakest yes massive melee damage and healing are good, but she is kind of a one trick pony being susceptable to battlefiled control and speed blitzes.


About Oro I think after his death he got alot more respect, everybody who is anybody, Danzo,Kabuto,Madara,Sasuke worked with Oro or got powers from him plus at least the art of him has been more badass that panel of him in this chap for example with the cloud effect in the background.

[Socratov]

well to futher put it into gameterms the sannin can be divided into 3 roles: the medic/melee => Tsunade, the DPS/tank => Jiraya and the support/battlefield controller => Orochimaru, wich makes for quite a good team.

[Traab]

I allways went with the ideea that the Sannin were rougly balanced against each other so even when Jiraya was busting out Sage Mode I was sure that Tsundade and Oro had things on that level but didn"t use them yet, Kishi's really consistent with sticking to themes so I wasn't worried he would go and declare X Sannin is way stronger then the rest.

Tsunade really was the weakest fighter of the group. Seriously, ruin her perfect chakra control, not even totally, just enough to make it less than perfect, and suddenly she cant punch people across football fields and stab giant snakes in the face with building sized tantos. She really has little other than standard medic battle techniques aside from monster strength, and even then, messing with her control somehow would likely ruin that as well. Drug her like she did to jiraya at the battle where she agreed to become hokage.

Anyways, on the other side you have orochimaru who has nasty ninjutsu, effective taijutsu, and skilled in kenjutsu. He can fight without his fricking ARMS man. You have to do an awful lot to totally cripple his combat effectiveness. Jiraya is basically the same. He has summons with a wide variety of fighting styles, taijutsu and ninjutsu. Ill include senjutsu in there just because.

None of his techniques barring rasengan and perhaps sage mode really require precise chakra control, so if the same technique was used on all three to damage their chakra control, tsunade would be a freaking civilian, but orochimaru and jiraya would be annoyed but still probably 75% combat effective or higher depending on the amount of damage to their control they took. Their jutsus would take a hit, but their hand to hand combat would still be effective, and im sure they could work around the bad chakra control well enough in a pinch.

[Socratov]

Tsunade really was the weakest fighter of the group. Seriously, ruin her perfect chakra control, not even totally, just enough to make it less than perfect, and suddenly she cant punch people across football fields and stab giant snakes in the face with building sized tantos. She really has little other than standard medic battle techniques aside from monster strength, and even then, messing with her control somehow would likely ruin that as well. Drug her like she did to jiraya at the battle where she agreed to become hokage.

Anyways, on the other side you have orochimaru who has nasty ninjutsu, effective taijutsu, and skilled in kenjutsu. He can fight without his fricking ARMS man. You have to do an awful lot to totally cripple his combat effectiveness. Jiraya is basically the same. He has summons with a wide variety of fighting styles, taijutsu and ninjutsu. Ill include senjutsu in there just because.

None of his techniques barring rasengan and perhaps sage mode really require precise chakra control, so if the same technique was used on all three to damage their chakra control, tsunade would be a freaking civilian, but orochimaru and jiraya would be annoyed but still probably 75% combat effective or higher depending on the amount of damage to their control they took. Their jutsus would take a hit, but their hand to hand combat would still be effective, and im sure they could work around the bad chakra control well enough in a pinch.

well, that's when you start tampering with control which is only 1 aspect for the rest orochimaru has nothing on tsunade in frontline fighting. Though his battlefield control and status effects are really nasty...

[Soras Teva Gee]

I allways went with the ideea that the Sannin were rougly balanced against each other so even when Jiraya was busting out Sage Mode I was sure that Tsundade and Oro had things on that level but didn"t use them yet, Kishi's really consistent with sticking to themes so I wasn't worried he would go and declare X Sannin is way stronger then the rest.

As for the more feat based fans for the longest time Tsunade was the one who looked the weakest yes massive melee damage and healing are good, but she is kind of a one trick pony being susceptable to battlefiled control and speed blitzes.


About Oro I think after his death he got alot more respect, everybody who is anybody, Danzo,Kabuto,Madara,Sasuke worked with Oro or got powers from him plus at least the art of him has been more badass that panel of him in this chap for example with the cloud effect in the background.

I say it but unless sexism rears its ugly head (which is not unlikely either) my dramatic instincts tell me that the Tsunade will be vital in bringing down Madara somehow. And its already established she's punching harder then resident bad arse Raikage which is quite something since being better then anyone else in the room seems to be the Cloud's hat.

[Sotharsyl]

I say it but unless sexism rears its ugly head (which is not unlikely either) my dramatic instincts tell me that the Tsunade will be vital in bringing down Madara somehow. And its already established she's punching harder then resident bad arse Raikage which is quite something since being better then anyone else in the room seems to be the Cloud's hat.

Well she's lucky as there's no main character near her fight, she'll finally get to show some moves :smallcool:

[Traab]

well, that's when you start tampering with control which is only 1 aspect for the rest orochimaru has nothing on tsunade in frontline fighting. Though his battlefield control and status effects are really nasty...

What I meant though, was that tsunade is a one trick pony. Everything she has stems from her incredible chakra control. She loses that, and she loses like 90% of her combat efficiency.

[lord_khaine]

Thats about the same thing as saying everything Pain or Itachi has is their eyes, they lose them and they lose about 95% of their combat efficiency.

[Traab]

Thats about the same thing as saying everything Pain or Itachi has is their eyes, they lose them and they lose about 95% of their combat efficiency.

Nah, itachi is way more than his eyes. Sure they have powerful trump cards, but even half blind he still kicked ass. Cant speak for pein though. Itachi would be weakened without his eyes, sure, but lets say he lost his sharingan, I bet he could still fight on a jounin level. He likely would drop down from S rank to A rank though.

[lord_khaine]

Nah, itachi is way more than his eyes. Sure they have powerful trump cards, but even half blind he still kicked ass. Cant speak for pein though. Itachi would be weakened without his eyes, sure, but lets say he lost his sharingan, I bet he could still fight on a jounin level. He likely would drop down from S rank to A rank though.

Who are talking about half blind? i said lose their eye :smalltongue:

And, no, if he lost everything but his Taijutsu then i cant see him doing any better than Tsunade would have in the same situation.

[Madara]

And, no, if he lost everything but his Taijutsu then i cant see him doing any better than Tsunade would have in the same situation.

Lee :smallamused:

If he only had Taijutsu, then he would have trained in Taijutsu more. Its an unfair comparison because Tsunade spent her time focusing on her chakra control, healing, and taijutsu.

[Drolyt]

Where is this discussion going? It is like saying that Goku would be weaker without Super Saiyan, or that the Green Lantern wouldn't be much without his ring, or that a Tiger wouldn't be nearly as scary if it didn't have claws and fangs and was the size of a house cat. Was there a point at some point?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Yeah unless someone is specifying a way to actually remove Tsunade's innate chakra control its kinda a meaningless speculation in my book.

[Socratov]

well some people forget that to use genjutsu and other forms of advanced technigues you need great chakra control. So take away that and what do you end up with? Exactly: a character without any features. I mean you don;t compare character wihtout their signature powers since it defines them.

[lord_khaine]

Lee

Not Lee, itachi.

Though i guess you are right in that Lee is even more of a one trick pony.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Though i guess you are right in that Lee is even more of a one trick pony.

I don't think you can call someone who's basically mastered a whole field of techniques a one-trick-pony. :smallamused:

[Sotharsyl]

I don't think you can call someone who's basically mastered a whole field of techniques a one-trick-pony. :smallamused:

I don't want to be mean to poor Lee but for example his ultimate move The Gates let's say he finds himself in a situation where he needs to use them, he opens them and he has the power beyond a Kage but then he dies after they're over but at least he got to defeat the villain no?

Actually no there's no reason for the villain to stay there and fight the taijutsu beast who will die when the jutsus wears off:

send a clone in your place let Lee evaporate in one punch then let him die while he tries to track you, Lee's not a tracker and you're in the next country
go yourself then teleport out,I'm not talking combat shunshin I'm talking those ninjutsu Oro,Kabuto and Sasuke use to escape just run away until the Gates wear off
use a genjutsu a simmilar tactic to the clone Lee's punching up trees he thinks are you while his time runs out or just rob him of his senses or a paralasing genjutsu
use any number of jutsus like Kakashi's hide in the earth jutsu, just keep digging down while Lee has to discover where you went then dig you out.


In the end Lee's diverse feels still boils down to punches and kicks which can do a lot of damage but ninjutsu just redefines your whole battle.

Also a sobbering thought out of this chapter, I've seen people defend Naruto's choice of clothes as stealthy because everybody will be on the look out for black wearing guys..

But Madara and Sasuke waltz in and out of a bar wearing the latest fashions out of "Necromancer & Sith" so yeah in Naruto (the manga) stealth really works like in fantasy wear black you're stealthy no one will question even dark hooded robes...

So if the traditional black hoods are stealthy Naruto's outfit can't be a meta stealth suit because "everyone distrust those wearing black" does not work in Naruto (the manga) actualy black suits seem to be extremely stealthy so no excuses for the orange :smallamused:

[Madara]

Not Lee, itachi.

Though i guess you are right in that Lee is even more of a one trick pony.

What I meant was that if you take away everything but someone's taijutsu, they become like Lee. I think that's what would happen to Itachi.

[Traab]

Yeah unless someone is specifying a way to actually remove Tsunade's innate chakra control its kinda a meaningless speculation in my book.

The same way tsunade ruined jirayas chakra control during the tsunade retrival arc when the three sanin all fought while weakened. She poisoned his sake. Jiraya was off balance, had his chakra control screwed up, but he was still capable of fighting pretty well. Yeah his techniques were weaker than they should have been, but they worked, and he still had his taijutsu as well. If tsunade had sipped that saki she would have been a brawler without the muscles to back it up. And its highly likely even her med nin abilities wouldnt have worked, like chakra scalpels, that weird technique that screwed up kabutos body control, etc. She would have been lucky to qualify as a chunin at that point.

Lee revolves around a single aspect because he has no freaking choice in the matter. Every other skilled ninja has a number of abilities they can use aside from their specialty. They would be handicapped without it, yes, but most wouldnt be crippled. Take the sandaime as an example. He could kick your butt in taijutsu, bojutsu, or ninjutsu, take your pick. He could probably also do some damage with his fuinjutsu skills as well. Take any one of those from him and he can still kick ass. You could take away his chakra period, not his control, his CHAKRA, and he could still kick the asses of most opponents out there below S rank.

Dont forget his battle with orochimaru. He took on both previous hokages at once in melee range, and if they hadnt been unkillable, the fight would have ended 30 seconds in, after he managed to punch the crap out of them and sneak exploding tags on their bodies to blow them apart. And taijutsu wasnt even his biggest strength.

[Nekura]

Tsunade also comes off as weak because we never see her doing impresive taijutsu. It just looks like raw strength thats only there because of her chakra control move. If you have someone with simular strength and speed but who also has taijutsu skills like Gai she wouldn't be able to touch them. Yes she has impresive healing but so did both orochimaru and kabuto at least on themselves.

[lord_khaine]

I don't think you can call someone who's basically mastered a whole field of techniques a one-trick-pony.

No, i cant, but then again Lee hasnt mastered a whole field of techniques, so its a moot point.


What I meant was that if you take away everything but someone's taijutsu, they become like Lee. I think that's what would happen to Itachi.

No, if someone starts with nothing but the insane determination Lee has, then they might end up like him.

But we are talking about one-trick-ponies, and therefore i were pointing out that if itachi or pain lost their eyes, then they would be in the same boat as tsunade without her powers.

Of course, the actualy point i were trying to make is that removing all a persons powers, and then accusing them of being a one-trick-pony is really stupid, if you want to see if that label can fit, then you should take a look at the target in a normal situation.


The same way tsunade ruined jirayas chakra control during the tsunade retrival arc when the three sanin all fought while weakened. She poisoned his sake. Jiraya was off balance, had his chakra control screwed up, but he was still capable of fighting pretty well. Yeah his techniques were weaker than they should have been, but they worked, and he still had his taijutsu as well. If tsunade had sipped that saki she would have been a brawler without the muscles to back it up. And its highly likely even her med nin abilities wouldnt have worked, like chakra scalpels, that weird technique that screwed up kabutos body control, etc. She would have been lucky to qualify as a chunin at that point.

This is assuming an awfull lot that we have no way to determine, like that she would not be strong even without her chackra, when we have seen lots of other people show strenght out of propertion to their body mass.

Or that she would have been unable to use her offensive medical abilities, when people with far less chakra control has been able to do show much more impressive techniques.


Tsunade also comes off as weak because we never see her doing impresive taijutsu. It just looks like raw strength thats only there because of her chakra control move. If you have someone with simular strength and speed but who also has taijutsu skills like Gai she wouldn't be able to touch them. Yes she has impresive healing but so did both orochimaru and kabuto at least on themselves.

Except that to start with there isnt anyone with simular strenght, except maybe a Bijuo in its beast shape.
And fighting is actualy all about hitting the opponent as hard and as fast as you can in the right spot, something that makes Tsunade one of the best close combat experts we have seen so far, due to her not wasting time with impractical moves, in favor of just hammering her opponent to a pulp.

[Traab]

No, i cant, but then again Lee hasnt mastered a whole field of techniques, so its a moot point.



No, if someone starts with nothing but the insane determination Lee has, then they might end up like him.

But we are talking about one-trick-ponies, and therefore i were pointing out that if itachi or pain lost their eyes, then they would be in the same boat as tsunade without her powers.

Of course, the actualy point i were trying to make is that removing all a persons powers, and then accusing them of being a one-trick-pony is really stupid, if you want to see if that label can fit, then you should take a look at the target in a normal situation.



This is assuming an awfull lot that we have no way to determine, like that she would not be strong even without her chackra, when we have seen lots of other people show strenght out of propertion to their body mass.

Or that she would have been unable to use her offensive medical abilities, when people with far less chakra control has been able to do show much more impressive techniques.



Except that to start with there isnt anyone with simular strenght, except maybe a Bijuo in its beast shape.
And fighting is actualy all about hitting the opponent as hard and as fast as you can in the right spot, something that makes Tsunade one of the best close combat experts we have seen so far, due to her not wasting time with impractical moves, in favor of just hammering her opponent to a pulp.

Except when fighting kabuto, a jounin level opponent, she spends the vast majority of her time hitting nothing but air. Her fighting style is almost depressingly naruto-ish. Keep swinging for the fences and hope eventually you will connect. Its like watching a tyson fight, she doesnt hit often, but she only needs to hit once.

As for us not knowing if she is physically strong, we may not "know" but we can guess. The only people capable of hitting that hard physically have clearly spent their lives training to do so. Tsunade has spent her life mastering medical jutsus and using her super strength technique. She isnt known for being fast, or highly skilled in taijutsu, so unless she has been secretly hiding her barbells and such and doing arm curls in private for the last 30 years, its doubtful her actual physical strength is anything impressive. Im not saying she is physically weak, im just saying that her hitting you probably wouldnt end many fights without her strength technique behind it. Her ability to knock out a mountain with a single punch is what makes her combat ability famous, not her skill in taijutsu.

[lord_khaine]

Except when fighting kabuto, a jounin level opponent, she spends the vast majority of her time hitting nothing but air. Her fighting style is almost depressingly naruto-ish. Keep swinging for the fences and hope eventually you will connect. Its like watching a tyson fight, she doesnt hit often, but she only needs to hit once.

The only thing this shows is that Kabuto is exceptionally skilled at dodging, something thats not surprising considering how far he has made it.


As for us not knowing if she is physically strong, we may not "know" but we can guess. The only people capable of hitting that hard physically have clearly spent their lives training to do so. Tsunade has spent her life mastering medical jutsus and using her super strength technique. She isnt known for being fast, or highly skilled in taijutsu, so unless she has been secretly hiding her barbells and such and doing arm curls in private for the last 30 years, its doubtful her actual physical strength is anything impressive. Im not saying she is physically weak, im just saying that her hitting you probably wouldnt end many fights without her strength technique behind it. Her ability to knock out a mountain with a single punch is what makes her combat ability famous, not her skill in taijutsu.

You are missing a vital point here, normal people needs to train hard and long to force their body into growing stronger, because its programmed by default to not sink any more reasorces into developing a muscle group than what is strictly nececary.

Tsunade on the other hand has shown a degree of control over the inner workings of the body that seems unrivaled, meaning that its very possible she could skip the physical training step in growing stronger.

[Traab]

The only thing this shows is that Kabuto is exceptionally skilled at dodging, something thats not surprising considering how far he has made it.



You are missing a vital point here, normal people needs to train hard and long to force their body into growing stronger, because its programmed by default to not sink any more reasorces into developing a muscle group than what is strictly nececary.

Tsunade on the other hand has shown a degree of control over the inner workings of the body that seems unrivaled, meaning that its very possible she could skip the physical training step in growing stronger.

Oh come on, we have seen no signs of the ability to just "will" yourself to be super strong. Thats really stretching imo. Whats more likely? That as a medic that relies upon her chakra control to heal or destroy anyone in her path her baseline physical stats arent all that amazing? Or that she has some sort of super ability completely unknown to the rest of the world, to make her muscles permanently stronger without having to lift a single weight or showing any visible sign of increased muscle power?

Im not saying that it isnt possible as some crazy surprise twist, "HAH! Now that I have crippled your chakra control tsunade, your techniques are worthless!" /Tsunade smacks a nearby mountain and it shatters "Hmm, guess all those years of secretly using medical techniques to boost my natural strength paid off." But there are no real signs of anything like that happening that I know of.

[Xondoure]

Really all this means is that a Byakugan user could wreck Tsunade if they got close enough. But then, she'd probably just chuck boulders at them or squish them with a giant slug.

[Drolyt]

Really all this means is that a Byakugan user could wreck Tsunade if they got close enough. But then, she'd probably just chuck boulders at them or squish them with a giant slug.
A somewhat pedantic point, but the technique that would disable Tsunade is the Gentle Fist style of Taijutsu, which requires the Byakugan but is not one of its powers; not everyone with a Byakugan can use Gentle Fist (I'm pretty sure that Ao doesn't know any of those techniques). At any rate anyone would be screwed if they were hit by the Hyuuga's Gentle Fist, or for that matter Kabuto's surgical knife technique, not just Tsunade, so I still don't see the point of this line of discussion.

[Traab]

Really all this means is that a Byakugan user could wreck Tsunade if they got close enough. But then, she'd probably just chuck boulders at them or squish them with a giant slug.

Yeah, I agree with Drol, my point wasnt that she is nothing without chakra period, its just that if she lacks the pinpoint chakra CONTROL for whatever reason, she would be ruined. Unlike most ninja who have the ability to adapt and work around suddenly having bad chakra control, she would be sunk. I was saying that to back up my claim of tsunade being the weakest of the sannin because everything she does revolves around that single small aspect of being a ninja. She has little flexibility in combat and thats a crippling weakness.

[jindra34]

Traab do note that fine chakra control is needed for pretty much all advanced ninjutsu and genjustu. So I don't see what the big deal about someone being seriously hampered by because of loss of chakra control and I doubt it just applies to Tsunade.

[Traab]

Traab do note that fine chakra control is needed for pretty much all advanced ninjutsu and genjustu. So I don't see what the big deal about someone being seriously hampered by because of loss of chakra control and I doubt it just applies to Tsunade.

That is true to an extent, however, we also see jiraya with his control ruined still able to use his high end ninjutsu, even though they are less effective than usual. They still happen. His swamp was enough to trap the snakes, not bury them, his hari jinzo was enough to protect himself, but not fully, and he summoned a small frog instead of bunta. He was clearly weakened by that. However, he was still at least somewhat combat effective with ninjutsu, AND his taijutsu was still as good as it always was. He was not horribly crippled by the lack of chakra control, just weakened.

Tsunade on the other hand, if given the same drug, would have been nearly worthless, with only her years of experience keeping her alive in a fight, her skills negated or crippled, everything that made her a powerful fighter gone. Thats what makes her weak, she has nothing to fall back on when her primary skill is negated. Specialization is death. You can be the greatest taijutsu master in existence, but if you cant close the distance and make the fight hand to hand, you are dead without ranged attacks. You can know a million jutsus, but if your opponent wont give you the time to use them, and you cant hold him off in close range, you are dead. You can shatter mountains with your fists and heal any wounds that exist, but if you are helpless without your chakra at best its a stamina game. All the great ninja have a primary ability, and at least one, sometimes several, backup abilities. Tsunade doesnt.

[jindra34]

Traab: 1. The poison was ingested making it very hard to use on the battle field.
2. The primary effect rendered Jiraya unconscious for a most of a night. Thus it kinda ends the fight there.
3. And it never said it disrupted chakra control just flow. As well as other side effects. Thus why he could still use jutsu just not to full or expected effect.

Edit:4. Jiraya also mentions only Tsunade could make a drug of that kind that wouldn't be picked up.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Hmm Traab... you're wrong about that drugging incident. Jiraiya never lays out that he is lacking fine chakra control like she uses to direct her strength, he can't do anything well. The guy can barely move at the time, his summoning is down there with Naruto attempts for example. Which isn't fine control... that's just basic supply.

So it seems like a more general poison at play, sure Jiraiya still fights but that why he's a legend even Pain felt he got lucky on. I'd frankly hazard that Tsunade would be less effected if anything. Her control is more of a skill and her style is built around doing more from less. So while its going to hit her and probably make her punches maybe wall breaking not wall shattering its not going to shut her down entirely anymore then it did Jiraiya.

(Also fair odds on her being able to counter such a thing but that's a separate issue)

[BlackDragonKing]

What I meant was that if you take away everything but someone's taijutsu, they become like Lee. I think that's what would happen to Itachi.

Itachi was fairly weaksauce at taijutsu, as I recall, or at least it was his "informed flaw so we can pretend he's not perfect at everything forever". Itachi's fighting style was basically to stand there and pull super-moves that defeat the enemy instantly, so Lee would completely rock his world in a straight up fist fight.

[Nekura]

Except that to start with there isnt anyone with simular strenght, except maybe a Bijuo in its beast shape.
And fighting is actualy all about hitting the opponent as hard and as fast as you can in the right spot, something that makes Tsunade one of the best close combat experts we have seen so far, due to her not wasting time with impractical moves, in favor of just hammering her opponent to a pulp.


In the fight with Madara he said Tsunade was slower then the Raikage but stronger then him. Thats using the final? form of her forbidden forhead medical seal. Now granted they didn't tell us much about her technique or how much stronger she was or how much slower. So thats at least one person and if you're using forbidden techniques I am sure Gai opening some gates is as strong if not stronger and probable a lot faster then her. I am not trying to hate on Tsunade it's just that she like a lot of the other female characters are not painted in the best light skill wise in this manga. As for fighting only being about how fast and strong you are I would put my money on an MMA fighter over a bodybuilder. Strength and speed can beat skill but it depeneds on the gaps between the two fighters atributes.

[Xondoure]

She's also the best healer in the Manga. Well except Pain and his transcending life and death, but that was possibly the lowest point of the entire series.

[lord_khaine]

Oh come on, we have seen no signs of the ability to just "will" yourself to be super strong. Thats really stretching imo. Whats more likely? That as a medic that relies upon her chakra control to heal or destroy anyone in her path her baseline physical stats arent all that amazing? Or that she has some sort of super ability completely unknown to the rest of the world, to make her muscles permanently stronger without having to lift a single weight or showing any visible sign of increased muscle power?

Im not saying that it isnt possible as some crazy surprise twist, "HAH! Now that I have crippled your chakra control tsunade, your techniques are worthless!" /Tsunade smacks a nearby mountain and it shatters "Hmm, guess all those years of secretly using medical techniques to boost my natural strength paid off." But there are no real signs of anything like that happening that I know of.

It would be the logical result of her ability to control her own metabolism to the degree she had shown, and though its proberly not something that someone without a bagground in biology og physiology would normaly think about (thereby also excluding the author :smalltongue: ), then i still dont find it more far out than Tsunade suddenly loosing all her powers.


In the fight with Madara he said Tsunade was slower then the Raikage but stronger then him. Thats using the final? form of her forbidden forhead medical seal. Now granted they didn't tell us much about her technique or how much stronger she was or how much slower. So thats at least one person and if you're using forbidden techniques I am sure Gai opening some gates is as strong if not stronger and probable a lot faster then her. I am not trying to hate on Tsunade it's just that she like a lot of the other female characters are not painted in the best light skill wise in this manga

What?

Thats just 1 more person who is weaker than Tsunade, you are directly quoting Madara saying so.
You do know that Tsunades medical seal is just a healing tecknique?
Regarding Gai, then i dont think he would be stronger even if he opened all his gates.


As for fighting only being about how fast and strong you are I would put my money on an MMA fighter over a bodybuilder. Strength and speed can beat skill but it depeneds on the gaps between the two fighters atributes.

Try and take another closer look at what i wrote, i said fighting was about Hitting your opponent as hard and as fast as you can, in the right spot.

[Nekura]

What?

Thats just 1 more person who is weaker than Tsunade, you are directly quoting Madara saying so.
You do know that Tsunades medical seal is just a healing tecknique?
Regarding Gai, then i dont think he would be stronger even if he opened all his gates.



Try and take another closer look at what i wrote, i said fighting was about Hitting your opponent as hard and as fast as you can, in the right spot.

Yes Raikage is said to be weaker and faster but it was comparing them in a way that doesn't indicate a huge gap between them like you saying only biju are on par with Tsunade and we will just have to disagree about Gai. And I had said someone with simular strength and speed but with better fighting skills aka taijutsu.

Ok you said "in the right spot" and Tsunade more than likely nows about the right spots due to her medical knowledge. But that doesn't change the fact she is never shown attacking in any right spots she more or less goes hulk smash in her fights. And yes she once used a med technique on Kabuto to confuse the signals his brain sent to which limbs but he was a good enough medic to surprise her on how easy it was to bypass that. That however wasn't about her touching the right spot it wasn't some pressure point or anything and would have been smarter in that case to just use her strength anyway. Or even better to use the chakra scalpels Kabuto was using, temporarily having someone move their right foot instead of their left arm is lame.

And memorising the body and how to heal it doesn't mean she trained and learned a taijutsu style to take advantage of it. It would be the smart thing to do but given how she has been shown to fight it would seem she spent all her time learning how to heal, sealing to make her triangle one, and of course drinking and losing all of her money gambling while feeling sorry for herself. So in her fights there is a distinct lack of hiting or in the right spots And untill her fight with Madara there wasn't even much speed so she really only had the strength and her medical knowledge going for her. And like I said before others like Orochimaru, Kabuto, and slower but also impresive Naruto had abilities to heal themselves. Even any idiot Oro gave his cursed seal to healed when it activated.

[darksolitaire]

New Chapter.

Kabuto has flashback? Yup, he's pretty much goner. Nothing can save him now.

[Fjolnir]

I am still convinced that the final fight will look something like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnKS1vpTOSk), though possibly with an even larger explosion and definitely more crazy eyes...

[Kato]

New Chapter.

Kabuto has flashback? Yup, he's pretty much goner. Nothing can save him now.

Aw, don't put him off so easily... then again, he is up against THE two Uchihas...

I wonder what made him what he is though, seems nice enough as a kiddo...
And I don't want dragon sage to just die...

[DiscipleofBob]

Flashbacks are the number one cause of death in named characters in Shounen.

Friends don't let friends have flashbacks.

[Giegue]

http://c.mhcdn.net/store/manga/8/60-582.0/compressed/u017.jpg

http://c.mhcdn.net/store/manga/8/59-564.0/compressed/f13.jpg

Now we have two "no ones"..? Do you think this is just a coincidence or could there be something deeper here? Feel free to discuss your thoughts on this.

Also, dragon sage CAN'T die. If he does then the Edos will be around...forever...and the real Madara will just troll everybody with his massive HAXX. Kabuto can't die in this fight, he has to be defeated without being killed or Itachi's goal of ending Edo Tensei will be compromised.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Yeah my one thought was "oh noes now he's gonna loose" this chapter.

Yeah but he can release Edo Tensei and then Sasuke will kill him for taking Itachi away from him.

[Fjolnir]

With Kabuto, he literally never had anything, so to glom onto whatever aspects of his peers that they encourage was his only true method of moving forward with his life. Tobi is, on the other hand, divorcing himself from his own past and facing the present with a view that he is no longer important as himself, but rather his actions will speak for him.

[Giegue]

Yeah, but by that point the fight will be over. Once Edo is ended, Kabuto is defeated. Edo is the ONLY thing keeping him alive right now and the only thing making him relevant in this war. Once Edo is down, the fight is over. If he dies after that's just because leaving him alive would be too dangerous and it is something that is just oh too predictable for the Sauce's character.

Also, I find it interesting. Kabuto has a technique to give the lifeless life, and it is seemingly a sage technique. Kabuto also said he was closer to the sage then even Tobi, who as we know has Senju + Uchiha DNA. While that may just be Kabuto's delusion talking, do any of you think that, perhaps, the Sage of the Six Paths was also, in addition to the 10-tails Jin a practitioner of Senjutsu, hence his "sage" title? It would be YET ANOTHER parallel between Rikudou and Naruto, to say the least...

[Socratov]

no, he at least gets 1 more chapter to explain himslef before Itachi declares himself god for 10 secs. and redoes the universe not including edo tensei and kabuto. I kind of like this pacing before the the naruto clusterbomb and the Uchiha 'tactical' nuke.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

A little bit of Kabuto's backstory is nice, though it's fairly unremarkable for a war-torn world like Naruto's.

If I had to guess, maybe Izanami can somehow force Kabuto to cancel the Edo Tensei. He did tell Tobi it was possible to do so, though bear in mind he is a professional liar.

Funny thought: maybe Kabuto would be a nicer guy if they gave him a different name and no glasses?

[Drolyt]

Yeah, but by that point the fight will be over. Once Edo is ended, Kabuto is defeated. Edo is the ONLY thing keeping him alive right now and the only thing making him relevant in this war. Once Edo is down, the fight is over. If he dies after that's just because leaving him alive would be too dangerous and it is something that is just oh too predictable for the Sauce's character.
Only thing making him alive/relevant? He's fought two Mangekyo users to a standstill, that's got to be something.

Also, I find it interesting. Kabuto has a technique to give the lifeless life, and it is seemingly a sage technique. Kabuto also said he was closer to the sage then even Tobi, who as we know has Senju + Uchiha DNA. While that may just be Kabuto's delusion talking, do any of you think that, perhaps, the Sage of the Six Paths was also, in addition to the 10-tails Jin a practitioner of Senjutsu, hence his "sage" title? It would be YET ANOTHER parallel between Rikudou and Naruto, to say the least...
I had always assumed that, mostly because the only other people given the Sage title used Senjutsu. Also, I feel sorry for Naruto. He's a freaking toad sage, while Kabuto gets to be a DRAGON SAGE.
Edit: Also, I've gotta say I liked this chapter. I do hope they keep the flashback concentration low, but a few every now and then are good.

[Kato]

http://c.mhcdn.net/store/manga/8/60-582.0/compressed/u017.jpg

http://c.mhcdn.net/store/manga/8/59-564.0/compressed/f13.jpg

Now we have two "no ones"..? Do you think this is just a coincidence or could there be something deeper here? Feel free to discuss your thoughts on this.
Nah... I don't think it's significant... Tobi just doesn't care but Kabuto is determined to get himself a name. Rather polar opposites if anything. Maybe in the meta sense but no plot relevance, I think.


Also, I find it interesting. Kabuto has a technique to give the lifeless life, and it is seemingly a sage technique. Kabuto also said he was closer to the sage then even Tobi, who as we know has Senju + Uchiha DNA. While that may just be Kabuto's delusion talking, do any of you think that, perhaps, the Sage of the Six Paths was also, in addition to the 10-tails Jin a practitioner of Senjutsu, hence his "sage" title? It would be YET ANOTHER parallel between Rikudou and Naruto, to say the least...
Hm... I'd guess it is possible, or as Drolyt says, he was merely able to use nature chakra/sage techniques but no sage of any particular kind.



Also, I feel sorry for Naruto. He's a freaking toad sage, while Kabuto gets to be a DRAGON SAGE.

Good point. Being a frog really is pretty dumb for the main character. Or funny.... and dumb.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Only thing making him alive/relevant? He's fought two Mangekyo users to a standstill, that's got to be something.

I had always assumed that, mostly because the only other people given the Sage title used Senjutsu. Also, I feel sorry for Naruto. He's a freaking toad sage, while Kabuto gets to be a DRAGON SAGE.
Edit: Also, I've gotta say I liked this chapter. I do hope they keep the flashback concentration low, but a few every now and then are good.

I'll call him a dragon when he shows signs of not being a snake, until then its so much hot air.

Besides Naruto's Sage Mode is so last season Kyuubimode naow! is still the coolest thing in his aresenal. So what if its toad themed.

[Drolyt]

I'll call him a dragon when he shows signs of not being a snake, until then its so much hot air.

Besides Naruto's Sage Mode is so last season Kyuubimode naow! is still the coolest thing in his aresenal. So what if its toad themed.
It is still pretty cool, yes, but I've always felt the whole toad thing was weird. Kishi just likes toads I guess.
On a related note, Kabuto's Senjutsu doesn't seem to have any of the weaknesses of Naruto's, namely he can use it freely while moving. I'm not sure if that is because he is "closer to the Sage of the Six Paths" as he claims or because Dragon Senjutsu works differently.

[Kato]

On a related note, Kabuto's Senjutsu doesn't seem to have any of the weaknesses of Naruto's, namely he can use it freely while moving. I'm not sure if that is because he is "closer to the Sage of the Six Paths" as he claims or because Dragon Senjutsu works differently.

Or because he has that weird, nameless snake coming out of his stomach that would do what the toads did for Jiraya...

[Soras Teva Gee]

I'd also point out that with all the talking going on there's been plenty of time for him to hold still to go into Sage Mode. Calm collected behavior is very unlike Naruto, but very much like Kabuto. I don't think he lacks the basic weakness but he better at doing it because he's not a hyper-active idiot.

[Prime32]

It is still pretty cool, yes, but I've always felt the whole toad thing was weird. Kishi just likes toads I guess.It all goes back to the original Tale of the Gallant Jiraiya.

[Madara]

New Chapter=spoilers

Little Kabuto is cute :smallbiggrin: I'm glad we're getting more development on him now. But now that we have his backstory, he's not gonna be the final boss.

[AtlanteanTroll]

I'm not disagreeing, but why? Because "Madara" still hasn't?

[Socratov]

Well, actually we have a lot of backstory on Madara, how he and Shisui developed their skills, how he waged war with teh Senju clan, how he eventually made peace and with Harishama Senju founded the hidden village of Konoha. the only one we don't know yet is this alledged Tobi...

[Madara]

I'm not disagreeing, but why? Because "Madara" still hasn't?

Because we usually hear their tragic back-story right before they die. I give him 2 chapters to either die fighting or change teams.

[Gilphon]

Might you, if he went down now, it would bring a very anticlimactic end to the kages' fight.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Well, actually we have a lot of backstory on Madara, how he and Shisui developed their skills, how he waged war with teh Senju clan, how he eventually made peace and with Harishama Senju founded the hidden village of Konoha. the only one we don't know yet is this alledged Tobi...
If I actually meant Madara I would have called him Madara. Quotes meant Tobi. Sorry that wasn't clearly.


Because we usually hear their tragic back-story right before they die. I give him 2 chapters to either die fighting or change teams.
Hmmmm. And he's taken off his Akatsuki jacket as well. I guess you're right.

[Madara]

Might you, if he went down now, it would bring a very anticlimactic end to the kages' fight.

Simultaneous defeat? I really wouldn't like it if the kage won against Madara. I mean...they're great, but it would cause Madara to lose the "I'm a badass Uchiha, and I'm gonna beat you with my mad Hax skills. Senju cells Hax, Sharingan Hax, sexist Hax, and even Rinnegan Hax!" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BadassBoast)

Also, Kabuto claimed to be the closest to the "Hermit"(That's what my scalator had) :smallsigh: of the Six Paths right now. I find that odd. I thought that Tobi or Madara would be closer. Is he discrediting Madara because he's dead?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Simultaneous defeat? I really wouldn't like it if the kage won against Madara. I mean...they're great, but it would cause Madara to lose the "I'm a badass Uchiha, and I'm gonna beat you with my mad Hax skills. Senju cells Hax, Sharingan Hax, sexist Hax, and even Rinnegan Hax!" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BadassBoast)


Yeah exactly why I think he should loose along with every member of the clan. The Uchiha are dirty clan of Canon Sues with **** attitudes that have stained an otherwise decent story.

Only decent representative of them was ruined when Kishi started drinking his own cool-aid.

[Kato]

Yeah exactly why I think he should loose along with every member of the clan. The Uchiha are dirty clan of Canon Sues with **** attitudes that have stained an otherwise decent story.

Only decent representative of them was ruined when Kishi started drinking his own cool-aid.

Aw, come on. Even though I will admit most bad plot choices in the story were Uchiha related I'd not say all of them were rotten from the core.

I thought about Kabuto changing sides but from what we know I dismissed the idea soon.

[Drolyt]

Yeah exactly why I think he should loose along with every member of the clan. The Uchiha are dirty clan of Canon Sues with **** attitudes that have stained an otherwise decent story.

Only decent representative of them was ruined when Kishi started drinking his own cool-aid.
While I understand that your opinion is somewhat common, especially outside of Japan for some reason, I have to respectfully disagree; I think the Uchiha and Sasuke in particular are an asset to the story. Regardless, I don't think fan dislike/like of a character should be a factor in determining the outcome of a story.

[Traab]

While I understand that your opinion is somewhat common, especially outside of Japan for some reason, I have to respectfully disagree; I think the Uchiha and Sasuke in particular are an asset to the story. Regardless, I don't think fan dislike/like of a character should be a factor in determining the outcome of a story.

I dont mind the uchiha as a character, my whole issue revolves around the eyes of unlimited powers. They are the plot device for more abilities from nowhere than the forbidden scroll is to fanfiction. At first the sharingan was cool. It was a neat and powerful bloodline, but it was beatable. Then we got the mangekyo. Ok, I can deal with this, the big bad scary guy has a higher level version of an already powerful bloodline, he is a big bad, he is supposed to be harder to beat. Then they started listing ability after ability, kishi decided that each mangekyo, because everyone with a sharingan has one, would get special abilities of their own, and even now we see more and more new eye powers pop out.

The eyes become symbols of godhood, as some cocky 18 year old nobody is able to stand up to, and fight against, 4 frigging kages and NOT end up a greasy smear on the floor. And it is ONLY because of those super ultra mega eye techniques that he isnt. He isnt some master of a thousand techniques, or ultra fast and strong. He basically stands there and lets susanoo fight for him, sending out bursts of black fire from time to time. He is preshippuden garra using his ultimate defense for everything, and having few skills to fall back on. Take his fight against kirabi. He DIES like 3 times during that battle, and gets his ass handed to him throughout the entire thing. Its only a lucky shot with his amaterasu that lets him and his team survive, and then just happening to discover that he can control the black flames that keeps him from killing karin and kirabi and failing his mission.

Anyways, my point being, those eyes have been turned into a total crutch, instead of making the uchiha better, like faster or stronger, kishi just gives them a new eye technique and lets that solve every problem they have.

[Giegue]

Yeah, the Kages can't defeat Madara simply because he's too powerful. Madara is not even trying to fight them. He's not taking them seriously in the slightest. He's hardly used his EMS or Rinne'gan. The ONLY EMS techs we saw from him where an INCOMPLETE Sussano' and some unamed genjutsu(Probably Tsukyomi) and the only Rinne'gan techs where Hungry Ghost Realm and the meteorites. This whole fight has been him using almost exclusively Mokuton, probably because he's thoroughly enjoying using the techniques Harishima beat him with all those years ago. If he was serious he'd be pulling out complete Sussano', more EMS techs, Rinne'gan techs and his Mokuton, not just standing there all cocky and spamming the wood. So, needless to say, if the Kage's are losing this badly to Mokuton alone, and being used by a non-serious Madara at that, imagine what would happen if the guy was actually serious and pulled out the rest of his arsenal?

Needless to say, the ONLY way Madara will be defeated is for Edo Tensei to be canceled, which is why we are seeing this fight between Kabuto and the Uchiha bros. The Kages are just too outclassed to win.

Also, as for the Uchihas, meh. I don't hate them. I don't paticularly like Sasuke or Itachi, though. Itachi is the 2nd biggest Sue in the entire manga(Minato is the first because he, while less HAXX then Itachi has HAXX + a flawless personality while Itachi has SOME flaws in his character though they do not make him any less HAXX.) and Sasuke is just an emo. To me, the most interesting Uchiha is by far Tobi, who is also my favorite character in the entire manga....and unlike Sasuke and Itachi he doesn't rely solely on his sharingan; he has been shown to be one of the smartest and most manipulative characters in the manga and the only sharingan tech he relied on a lot was his S/T jutsu, and it is debatable whether or not that technique is even a sharingan tech at all or some other non-sharingan jutsu that he happens to possess.

[Madara]

I've enjoyed Itachi because he has enough contingencies. Also, I think he's probably the only Uchiha to put his village above the clan. That earns him points. Plus he spent almost the whole series messing with sasuke :smallamused:

[Soras Teva Gee]

I've enjoyed Itachi because he has enough contingencies. Also, I think he's probably the only Uchiha to put his village above the clan. That earns him points. Plus he spent almost the whole series messing with sasuke :smallamused:

False premise. Itachi was a sadistic murdering bastard that killed his whole clan including his own parents to test his ability to do it. He mind rape tortured Kakashi and Sasuke leaving them in coma's just so he could get away. That is Itachi the complete monster that while Sasuke should always have gotten over it... you could at least see how that would **** a kid up.

All of it, absolutely all of it was shat over after the fact with by a bunch of thin lines and suddenly we are supposed to feel sympathy that ooh he was 'ordered' too but loved his brother so vewy muuuchh isn't he a great anti-hero who was super brilliant enough to protect his village. And ooh now Sasuke is going to get revenge for his brother isn't that so bishie and sexy. I say thee.... NAY

Everything about Itachi is a gigantic arse pull so massive Tite Kubo only wishes his drawers were half as dirty. It only speaks to the manga's other great strengths that it survives the word Uchiha.

[Traab]

False premise. Itachi was a sadistic murdering bastard that killed his whole clan including his own parents to test his ability to do it. He mind rape tortured Kakashi and Sasuke leaving them in coma's just so he could get away. That is Itachi the complete monster that while Sasuke should always have gotten over it... you could at least see how that would **** a kid up.

All of it, absolutely all of it was shat over after the fact with by a bunch of thin lines and suddenly we are supposed to feel sympathy that ooh he was 'ordered' too but loved his brother so vewy muuuchh isn't he a great anti-hero who was super brilliant enough to protect his village. And ooh now Sasuke is going to get revenge for his brother isn't that so bishie and sexy. I say thee.... NAY

Everything about Itachi is a gigantic arse pull so massive Tite Kubo only wishes his drawers were half as dirty. It only speaks to the manga's other great strengths that it survives the word Uchiha.

Its such a deep ass pull that there was a tongue attached to the far end of it. It made no sense. Itachi was a good guy all along right? He saved konoha from civil war that would have left it gutted and vulnerable right? He wanted his baby brother to grow strong and kill him to regain his clans honor and start over fresh right? THEN WHY THE HELL DID HE TORTURE SASUKE INTO INSANITY?! Everything he did was in no way unclearly established to make sasuke an evil bastard willing to do anything to get strong enough to kill itachi. Every bit of that torture, his entire hate me speech, the follow up torture, all of it, all designed to do anything BUT turn sasuke into a paragon of honor and virtue to restart the clan on a high note. Give me 10 minutes and I could come up with a far better speech to give to sasuke.

"It was not my intention to do this in front of you. For that I am sorry. But you can take my word for it. Father had it coming. When you grow up. If you still feel raw about it. Ill be waiting."

There, way better. :smallbiggrin: But seriously, he could have kept the whole coup secret, made himself out to be the bad guy, and mind raped sasuke into thinking the only way he could ever grow strong enough to defeat him, was to work with his friends and fellow ninja, grow strong together, and hunt him down as a team. Or maybe something like, "The uchiha clan was weak, its old ways of doing things inferior. Its why I killed them all so easily. If you hope to ever be able to kill me, you will have to find a new path in life, one the old uchiha clan always refused. Rely upon your fellow ninja to help you grow strong. Learn from and with them, and when you think you are ready, come and find me, and show me that your way is better. Show me that through you, the uchiha clan can become great again."

[Tavar]

There is a way the thing becomes less character breaking. If you assume that Itachi really went insane after what he did.

But that's pretty much trying to hurriedly Spackle over the horrendous holes the author left in the story.

[Soras Teva Gee]

There, way better. :smallbiggrin: But seriously, he could have kept the whole coup secret, made himself out to be the bad guy, and mind raped sasuke into thinking the only way he could ever grow strong enough to defeat him, was to work with his friends and fellow ninja, grow strong together, and hunt him down as a team. Or maybe something like, "The uchiha clan was weak, its old ways of doing things inferior. Its why I killed them all so easily. If you hope to ever be able to kill me, you will have to find a new path in life, one the old uchiha clan always refused. Rely upon your fellow ninja to help you grow strong. Learn from and with them, and when you think you are ready, come and find me, and show me that your way is better. Show me that through you, the uchiha clan can become great again."

Yeah and beyond Itachi none of this is established to have a base to operate from. Were the Uchiha ever portrayed as anything but just another extended clan in Part I? Nope, or not enough for me to really pick up on. Remember how the Sharingan used to be frakking rare supposedly even in clan and their manliness test was mastering Fire jutsu? And how they were the fan to the flames, if that doesn't sound like a cheerfully loyal motto for the Leaf I don't know what is. Sure there were a couple skeletons in their closest with Madara... but so what it just means they had a few bad apples.

Certainly nothing that would build them up as somehow the being the heirs of a great grudge going back to the beginning of the Ninja world and that they were some kind of village outcasts that were only barely tolerated. We've seen right from the beginning the Leaf has no problem ostracizing people, yet so help me no real sign of it for the Uchiha. Heck the Uchiha even had a respectful and frankly generic job as cops. That what we eventually find out in a few words is absolutely not a substitute for failing to build a theme in early on then trying to patch it into making the Uchiha's more important.

I could maybe buy some of this crap from the Hyuga who are set up as elitist nobles from the get go, and establish themselves with having a fairly nasty practice to protect their special techniques. That's how you set up being secretly planning rebellion. Doesn't make one of their own killing them off somehow sympathetic but it doesn't or take "secret rebellion revealed ex post facto" out of being a lame plot device... but at least it isn't outright dissonant with displayed behavior.

Then again pretty damn sure this wasn't all thought out at the beginning.

[Traab]

True, but at least with my speech, or one similar, it establishes that there was possibly something wrong with the clan that made itachi kill them, and he apparently wanted sasuke to find a better way to recreate the clan. Its all a big mystery to us until we get this big reveal about the coup attempt, and we learn via flashback exactly what the uchiha were doing that itachi claimed was wrong. We could even have an older sasuke, a few years after the massacre, searching through his clan records until he discovers plans of the coup and other horrible things.

[lord_khaine]

Since we are actualy bringing itachi's horrible crime's up, then am i the only one who have been wondering just how many innocent kids and teenagers the bastard must have killed to erradicate an entire clan, and leave only Sasuke remaining?

Something that becomes so much worse when you considder how it would not have been nececary for either of itachi's stated goals, that of either killing the rebellion, or trying to test his own power.

[Traab]

Since we are actualy bringing itachi's horrible crime's up, then am i the only one who have been wondering just how many innocent kids and teenagers the bastard must have killed to erradicate an entire clan, and leave only Sasuke remaining?

Something that becomes so much worse when you considder how it would not have been nececary for either of itachi's stated goals, that of either killing the rebellion, or trying to test his own power.

Agreed, its highly unlikely that the entire clan was nothing but active duty ninjas. There were grandparents, and civilians who never channeled chakra before. There were innocent babies and children as young as or younger than sasuke. Wiping out a corrupt clan so sasuke can rebuild it in a better way SOUNDS all sorts of noble, but in reality its a horrifying action that would send you to hell a hundred times over.

Its why I always liked the fanfics where we learn that itachi DIDNT kill all of his clan. He wiped out the clan council and the active duty nins who supported the plan. Then later on that night, danzo and his root, or madera, or whoever, came by and finished the job. Or where itachi went in to wipe out the conspirators, but as he arrived he saw fugaku killing the last of the uchiha clan that refused to join in, so itachi killed all of fugakus supporters, and once again, big damn mess and total genocide instead of cherry picking the traitors and leaving the rest alive.