[PF] Help me make a tripping cleric

[rezplz]

So last session, I went through 2 character deaths. First my bard, with pumped up inspire courage (and who was basically single-handedly making the fighter-types awesome) was hit with a lucky critical with max damage sneak attack when she was already at low health (had not managed to get mirror image up yet :\ ). So then I made a necromancy cleric, because hey. The group could use a cleric. Using WBL I convince the DM to let me start off with a frost giant skeleton, and in the first session I cast command undead (via domain) to control this ice-mammoth thing and raised a bulette. I proceeded to then dominate melee nearly by myself (prior to my cleric we had no burly melee person designed to take a lot of hits) and wreak havoc with my spells.

Unfortunately, due to poor wording of my orders while I slept, my undead did not attack anything until one of us were attacked. And I guess the guy on watch forgot that he could, you know, ring a gong to wake us up, and instead was casting a true strike to fight a large-sized marrow thing as it walked right up to where I was sleeping and the party monk, dominated and shape changed (nat 1 on the save) came up and coup de graced me. I happened to botch my save and I died, causing my undead to break free and nearly cause a TPK - one that was only prevented by the alchemist being able to fly, and the DM fudging the rolls to uber-buff the controlled monk to distract my undead beasties. My necromancer, being new, didn't get a raise dead, but the monk did. (It's in character. hard to trust a necromancer and all.)


ANYWHO, THE IMPORTANT PART.

I am thinking about making a trip-focused cleric in case they don't bring back my bard. Unfortunately the magic domain got nerfed and as far as I can see doesn't allow you to use arcane items like a wizard. So far all I've got is taking improved/greater trip, and using the strength domain for access to enlarge person. Probably a fighter dip for weapon proficiency and a bonus feat.

I'm wondering what other tripping-related feats or spells there are in pathfinder to make this build viable. I'd like him to be a bit tanky, battlefield control but still be able to cast heal spells and offensive spells. Since he wouldn't be focused on doing damage (we have a monk and alchemist for that. Although I don't know how effective the monk will be without my bard since he was specced into going with looots of attacks for a little damage each. He wasn't happy when my bard died) I could probably dump strength and go DEX for combat reflexes - maybe use my turn to cast spells and AoO's to trip. Thinking of Strength and Healing for domains.

Starting level is 7 right now, standard wealth by level, with 22 point buy. Pathfinder is allowed, and the DM sometimes lets me do 3.5 things since I was the only one fighting to stay with 3.5 when everyone else wanted to do pathfinder.

[Ravens_cry]

See if you can get the Holy Warrior variant cleric from the original Pathfinder Campaign Setting book. It loses domains, but gets full BAB and heavy armour.
Combine with a clerics self buffing power and you'll be a tripping machine.

[rezplz]

That sounds really interesting. Trying to find holy warrior. Is it online somewhere?

[Ravens_cry]

That sounds really interesting. Trying to find holy warrior. Is it online somewhere?
Unfortunately no, it never got converted to Pathfinder the game.

[rezplz]

Then unfortunately that sounds like a pretty big longshot. Don't think I'll be able to pull off the CHA check to get that allowed, but I might try still.

[Keneth]

Holy Warrior is still 3E, there's no PF conversion as mentioned above. I've made a build on a similar premise though.

In a nutshell, I maxed Str and Wis. The character was a werewolf to buff his Dex and Con in battle but I suppose you could get similar results with a level of Synthesist (might need to rearrange your ability points a bit though). Now here comes the tricky part, I got the Wolf domain which is usually meant for druids but it shouldn't take much convincing for your GM to let you use it if you're a nature cleric, and I also took the Fur domain (Feather is better but didn't fit the fluff). As the companion I took wolf and I also took the Boon Companion feat to buff it up to my cleric level. Additionally I took the Fury's Fall feat (which doesn't have the Int requirement).

So if you put all that together, you can flank with your wolf, get +Wis to attack while you're flanking instead of the usual +2, you get Improved Trip for free, you add both Str and Dex to trip attempts, and you can cast Aspect of the Wolf as a third level spell which gives you a net gain of +6 to trip attempts (+2 from strength, +2 from dexterity, +2 enhancement bonus) and you can make an additional trip attempt each round as a swift action. Now cast blessing of fervor or divine power (or both) for extra buffs and trip away with your character as well as your animal companion.

[charcoalninja]

Simply focusing on STR and WIS will allow you to make a great tripping cleric. Use a heavy flail and take the relevant feats. Using this plus cleric buffs will make tripping easy as Righteous Might has you grow. Take the STR domain because it gives you Enlarge Person (I think) and the ability to buff your CMs more. If you want to do it really well out of the gate you can pop in a dip or two into Fighter for the higher BAB and bonus feats to nab the chain asap.

Since clerics get 9th level spells at 17th you can dip 3 levels of things without losing much power.

[rezplz]

Keneth: Just wondering how you get both STR and DEX to trip attempts, or how you get an animal companion. I didn't see anything about those when I looked up the appropriate domains.

charcoalninja: Unfortunately they nerved the chain in PF, as it no longer has reach. Instead I would probably go with the guisarme, with at most a 1 level dip in fighter for weapon proficiencies and an extra feat.

Also is STR really much better than DEX for tripping? Even with pumping STR, with 1 or 2 attacks and putting all my feats into tripping I don't see much potential for damage at all, and a few other party members have that covered. Other than how silly it sounds to take the strength domain and dump strength, I don't see much of a reason to go STR instead of DEX. Then I could do combat reflexes and all that junk.

[Chained Birds]

Fury's Fall (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/fury-s-fall-combat) (I believe) is a feat that adds your Dex mod to Trip Attempts.

I believe the Animal Domain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/domains/paizo---domains/animal-domain) grants you an Animal Companion (at -3 your level, but taking Boon Companion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/boon-companion) negates that).

[Ravens_cry]

Weapon Finesse, with certain weapons, also allows you to use Dex for trip attacks.
Agile Manuevers also works.
Fury's Fall might allow you to add it twice.
If you can, maybe see if you can get the Guided (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided) weapon property. Again, it's 3.5 Paizo material and not Pathfinder per se, but it means you can focus on your casting stat while still being just as effective in melee. On the other hand, a lot of cleric buff spells, the ones that give bonuses to strength, don't help any more.

[Keneth]

@rezplz: DEX builds can work just fine for tripping but you'll have a harder time dealing damage. If that's ok with you, you can easily focus on dexterity and take agile maneuvers. Personally, I like to start whacking them with all I've got once they're down on the floor.

[Zubrowka74]

Whoa! When I read the thread I though "trip" as in "70's hippie". You know, like the pacifist bundle in 2nd edition Complete Priest Handbook. :smallsmile:

[mikau013]

Whoa! When I read the thread I though "trip" as in "70's hippie". You know, like the pacifist bundle in 2nd edition Complete Priest Handbook. :smallsmile:

Those are called druids in 3e / pf

[ericgrau]

The thing with the skeleton is that it's big power until it dies, and then suddenly you lose it all. This is why the 3.5 DMG recommends allowing no more than 1/4 wealth in expendables, and I think that should include undead.

Anyhoo I'd put str before wis and focus more on spells that don't have saves. Don't forget combat reflexes. If you can get a guisarme or spiked chain somehow for reach even better. Another option might bet TWF sickles for more trip attempts since penalties to attack bonus don't matter much for tripping, but extra attempts are nice.

Due to combat reflexes a dex focused tripper might be a good idea. But past the max dex bonus to AC for medium armor the dex isn't as useful. And the thing about greater trip is you can trip AND do damage, so being a damage dealer is practically built in. Plus agile maneuvers requires yet another feat and you only have so many. So... if you can manage on ok dex as your third stat for AC and combat reflexes attacks I'd probably stick with strength. If you can't then I'd consider a dex focus build.

[rezplz]

Alright, awesome. Thanks for all the tips, thinking I'm going to go for STR primary with as much DEX as I can afford after WIS. I think I got everything sorted out from here.

[Ravens_cry]

Don't forget CON. You're a front liner with d8 (d10 with Holy Warrior) hit die.
CON bonus matters.

[rezplz]

DOH! That's going to make this difficult with only a 22 point buy.

[Ravens_cry]

DOH! That's going to make this difficult with only a 22 point buy.
Indeed. I would go dexterity based tripping and ignore damage mostly, let other characters handle that. If you want to play a different tune if that gets samey, you are a cleric, you got nine levels of spells play with, go wild.

[rezplz]

That's true, and which is why I wanted cleric in the first place. Yeah because of my limited point buy, I'll have to drop strength entirely.

[ericgrau]

D'oh that's right. Well since you deal damage for free as part of the trips I might put a 12 in str only because it's cheap. If you really really avoid spells with saves you can go cheap on wis. Maybe even putting it 3rd. Probably 14 minimum so you can hit 9th level spells (using a +6 wis magic item) without any headaches. You can get buff spells like blessings of fervor, touch attacks and save for half spells. Whatever's good against foes that are hard to trip.

[Keneth]

The fact of the matter is that you won't be able to max 4 stats or even 3. With 22 point buy you can go something like this:

Str 16+2
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 9
Wis 16
Cha 7

Alternatively, dump Dex and take one level of Synthesist (summoner archetype) as I suggested. This would net you some decent abilities, natural armor, and some HP. You could also take a race with better bonuses. Oakling gets +2 Str, +2 Wis, and natural armor, but it's third party material. Oread also get +2 Str and +2 Wis but the rest of their abilities are unimpressive, a better choice would be one of the Tiefling variants, but you should note that Tieflings can't use Enlarge Person. Duergar get +2 Con, and +2 Wis, but your Cha is gonna be practically unplayable. You'd need to get GM's permision use these races probably.

I still think it's best to focus on Str and Wis, then Con and ignore Dex if you can't boost it.

[Keneth]

@eric: How do you deal damage while tripping?

[ahenobarbi]

@eric: How do you deal damage while tripping?

Improved trip gives you attack after successful trip attempt.

[Keneth]

Improved trip gives you attack after successful trip attempt.
Not in Pathfinder it doesn't. You need Greater Trip and cleric can't get get it without investing into Int.

[Ravens_cry]

Not in Pathfinder it doesn't. You need Greater Trip and cleric can't get get it without investing into Int.
You can't even get Improved Trip without at least 13 intelligence.

[ahenobarbi]

Not in Pathfinder it doesn't. You need Greater Trip and cleric can't get get it without investing into Int.

Ouch, I didn't notice thread is about PF :smalltongue:

[Keneth]

You can't even get Improved Trip without at least 13 intelligence.
Wolf domain gives you improved trip if you can convince the GM to let you use it.

[ericgrau]

But why focus on tripping without greater trip? And yeah, that's the way you get free damage attacks. Might as well put at least a cheap investment into damage.

Let's see wis 14, str 12, int 13. Already 10 of his 22 points, leaving 14 if he dumps cha to 8 (or 16 if he dumps it to 7). That means dex 16 con 14 or dex 15 con 14, with 1 or 2 points leftover. With reach and a good enough lock down he might survive a 12 con.

Another thing with dex focus is that enlarge person doesn't help nearly as much. What about wis 14, dex 14, int 13 and a str focus? That's 13 of his points leaving 13 if he dumps cha to 7. Then str 16 con 12. Lower AC and HP but you bank on enlarge person + reach trips + combat reflexes. Though actually in pathfinder enlarge person isn't as good regardless because the size modifiers dropped. Might not be worth the round to cast it unless you can really exploit the reach. Otherwise skipping enlarge person dex focus is looking like an option again, though it's still close.

Or toy with the numbers a bit and figure out something else.

[Ravens_cry]

Wolf domain gives you improved trip if you can convince the GM to let you use it.
Doesn't help much unfortunately as Greater Trip still has the 13 intelligence prerequisite.

[Keneth]

But why focus on tripping without greater trip? And yeah, that's the way you get free damage attacks. Might as well put at least a cheap investment into damage.
Lowering your other stats so that you can get an AoO with greater trip really isn't worth the investment if you ask me. But that's just my preference, I'm used to playing characters with low-to-average intelligence.


Doesn't help much unfortunately as Greater Trip still has the 13 intelligence prerequisite.
It helps a huge amount. You can still trip just fine without Greater Trip, but without Improved Trip, you're pretty much useless. Remember that the damage you take from taking an AoO is applied as penalty to your CMB roll.

[Ravens_cry]

It helps a huge amount. You can still trip just fine without Greater Trip, but without Improved Trip, you're pretty much useless. Remember that the damage you take from taking an AoO is applied as penalty to your CMB roll.
Could you link to that rule? I've never heard of it, though that is not saying much.

[grarrrg]

Crusader (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/archetypes/paizo---cleric-archetypes/crusader) Cleric might help. You trade 1 Domain, and some spell slots, but get a bonus Feat every 5 levels.
There are no Maneuver feats on the list, but you CAN ignore Pre-Reqs.
The Focus/Specialization line is on the list, it can help with your CMB checks, and Damage (especially with limited Str/Point-buy).

Also, the Lore Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/lore-warden) Fighter, you get 4 skills/level, Combat Expertise for free, and at 3rd level you get a flat +2 bonus to all of your CMB/CMD checks.


On the PrC side of things:

A 1 level dip into Living Monolith (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/living-monolith) can give you 3/day, 6 minutes duration Enlarge Person (and has full bab). The req's are pretty easy except for the feats. Endurance can be had with a quick 1 level dip into Unbreakable (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/unbreakable) Fighter, you lose your choice of feat, but get Endurance and Diehard instead.

If you do go the Living Monolith route (and if your Deity is Iomedae), then you also already qualify for Inheritor's Crusader (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/inheritor-s-crusader), it's only 3 levels but offers Full Bab and Full casting.


Another option would be Holy Vindicator (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/holy-vindicator), while none of the abilities help too much, it is Full Bab with 7/10 Casting that you can qualify for with just Cleric levels. It is Semi-Channel focused though, so you won't want to dump your Cha completely.

[Keneth]

Could you link to that rule? I've never heard of it, though that is not saying much.

Unless otherwise noted, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver. If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver.
From the Performing a Combat Maneuver (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Combat-Maneuver-Bonus) section.

[Ravens_cry]

From the Performing a Combat Maneuver (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Combat-Maneuver-Bonus) section.
Thank you.:smallsmile: