Reasonable class changes

[NOhara24]

Hey all,

I'm *hopefully* going to be running a game within the coming months or so. I came up with these house rules to try and make it so no one player can just do everything himself, and no one likes being the monk or rogue that becomes irrelevant at level 10. So this is what I've come up with...

Barbarians - Double DR gained at designated level. Toughness as bonus feat given at the same levels as DR. Diehard as bonus feat given at level 10. WIS to saves.

Clerics - Are cloistered.

Druids - either use the Druidic Avenger ACF or give up wildshape for monk/ranger benefits. Planar shepard is banned. Greenbound summoning is banned.

Fighter - Don't be silly, use ToB.

Monk - Full BAB except when flurrying, 1.5x STR bonus to damage when unarmed. Gain all Vow of Poverty benefits listed at levels 1, 5, 11, and 16. Fists can be enchanted as if they were weapons. Or just use ToB.

Paladin - CHA based casting to alleviate MAD, pick one domain from the Cleric domain list. Battle Blessing as a bonus feat at level 6. Smite Evil turns to the Crusader version, Smite.

Rogue - Gain ability to sneak attack enemies normally immune to it at level 7. Gain Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat at level one and DEX to damage instead of STR to help alleviate MAD. No chance of poisoning self when applying poisons to weapon, roll 1d4 + INT and add to enemy save DC to avoid poison’s effects.

What do you all think?

[FearlessGnome]

Nothing too unreasonable here. Nothing special either, though. Most campaigns will benefit from giving some bonus to the weaker classes, but it tends to vary a lot from DM to DM and game to game. (And it usually helps to talk to the player about what they'd like as an 'extra' for their class.)

Though if you want to take away Wildshape from druids, you should really consider nerfing wizards and clerics as well. I like Sorcerers, so I favor: Sorcerers gain spells known & per day and spell as a sorcerer of one level higher than normal, and wizards lose one spell slot per spell level (So when they get a new spell level, a generalist has 0+Bonus spells instead of 1+Bonus), as well as delaying their access to higher spell levels by 1 level.
Yes, this annoys some people. Yes, wizards are still stronger than sorcerers because of their versatility, but at least they pay for it, and casters who were born to magic get access to higher spell levels before those who just study it, instead of the other way around.
Also obviously ban Elven Generalist & Domain wizard on the same character.

As for clerics... Cloistered is strictly better for most builds. I like it, so I won't argue about making it the default, but there needs to be some other restriction of the cleric's power in there somewhere if we want to rebalance the classes.
One idea I like is to make Healers be the only class that can convert any prepared spell into a healing spell, while a cleric has to pick one of their domains (As per an ACF somewhere) and spontaneously convert their spells into those spells. Doesn't really hurt clerics, but it makes the Healer a little bit less horrible at the only thing they are supposed to be good for.

I really don't see a need to deny monks full BAB when flurrying. If anything, just give them Mettle to go with their Evasion at some point.



While people tend to have very different opinions on how classes can be rebalanced, it seldom hurts to come across a thread like this and read other people's suggestions.

[Telonius]

My houserules for toning down Clerics are in several parts.
1. All Clerics are cloistered.
2. No Divine Metamagic.
3. Divine Power becomes War Domain only. (Yeah, a Cleric of Kord should be able to do that; a Cleric of Boccob, not so much).
4. Take a very close look at anything that grants an additional domain.
5. General spell list nerfs. (Off the top of my head, casting "Guidance of the Avatar" and a few in Spell Compendium are banned; Gate is fixed so you can't chain-gate Solars; that sort of thing).

[Darrin]

What do you all think?

Sorcerer - Gain bonus metamagic, item creation, or bloodline-related feat at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th levels (similar to wizards, so they don't get boned on feats). Add Diplomacy, Intimidate, and UMD to class skills.

All "2 skill points per level" classes = "4 skill points per level" classes.

Half-Elf: Pick two skills to always be considered class skills. You may switch one or both of your +2 racial bonuses to either of these skills.

Half-Orc: Treat Orc Double-Axe and Orc Shotput as martial weapons. +2 racial bonus to Intimidate and Survival.

Initiative = Reflex save (plus Imp. Init., etc.)

Light shields provide a +2 shield bonus. Heavy shields provide a +3 shield bonus. Bucklers/Tower shields unchanged.

Craft: Alchemy does not require any spellcaster levels.

Acrobatic/Agile/Alertness/etc. = +2 to specified skills, and may reroll a "1" on either skill.

Dodge/Mobility: Feats are combined. Also, Dodge bonus = +1 AC with an additional +1 AC per every 5 character levels.

Great Fortitude/Iron Will/Lighting Reflexes: In addition to the +2 bonus, you may reroll one failed save once per session.

Manyshot/Rapid Reload: May be used with a sling.

Skill Focus: +3 bonus, chosen skill becomes a class skill, and may reroll a failed check on that skill once per session.

Toughness: Replace benefits with the benefits from Improved Toughness.

Weapon Focus/Greater Weapon Focus: Feats are combined. Bonus = +1 plus an additional +1 for every five Fighter levels.

Weapon Specialization/Greater Weapon Specialization: Feats are combined. Bonus = +1 for every two Fighter levels.

[Daer]

some idea stolen from ddo.
for that monk fist enchanting -> hand wraps.
work like weapon for enchanting but are unarmed using characters unarmed damage aso.

perhaps adding some few rounds short boosts like +to hit, +dr, +speed, +attack,+saves,+ac,+damage,+resist element, aso aso. they could use once or twice a day. of course depending on classes who gets and what.


then perhaps no metamagic stacking or at least no metamagic discounts!

[Godskook]

Barbarians - Double DR gained at designated level. Toughness as bonus feat given at the same levels as DR. Diehard as bonus feat given at level 10. WIS to saves.

Barbarians are fine in combat, at least the stabbing/surviving part. What they need is versatility(gain the ability to treat their fists/regular weapons as Adamantine even when they're not for instance) and non-combat skills.


Clerics - Are cloistered.

That's not a nerf.....at least not by itself.


Druids - either use the Druidic Avenger ACF or give up wildshape for monk/ranger benefits. Planar shepard is banned. Greenbound summoning is banned.

Keep wildshape, ban the enhancement feats, and remove the Animal Companion instead. Your bans are the 'standards' for Druid bans.


Fighter - Don't be silly, use ToB.

Small Fighter dips are useful.


Monk - Full BAB except when flurrying, 1.5x STR bonus to damage when unarmed. Gain all Vow of Poverty benefits listed at levels 1, 5, 11, and 16. Fists can be enchanted as if they were weapons. Or just use ToB.

Use Jiriku's fix. I have it for one of my players in my game, and my only objections to the class is its too dippable as written. If you're concerned, make the empty strike class feature capped at half level(and then remove the cap at level ~15).

The player I use it for *WON'T* dip, so I don't have to worry about him.


Paladin - CHA based casting to alleviate MAD, pick one domain from the Cleric domain list. Battle Blessing as a bonus feat at level 6. Smite Evil turns to the Crusader version, Smite.

Make Smite work on a per-encounter basis too.

[Spiryt]

Pretty good stuff, needs Ranger fix too, though.

[Darrin]

Pretty good stuff, needs Ranger fix too, though.

Ranger = Mystic Ranger.

If you don't have access to Mystic Ranger, then I'd suggest:

Change Animal Companion to "Ranger level - 3 = Druid level". For Combat Style, I'd either add the variant Combat Styles from Dragon #326, or open it up to any of the bonus feats mentioned in the Champion of the Wild ACF.

Oh, and then something needs to be done about Endurance... uh, I haven't quite figured out what to do with that. Maybe replace/combine it with Diehard or Steadfast Determination?

[ericgrau]

I think the best way to handle non-casters is to make more damage based encounters with simpler foes. Heck give them NPC class levels in warrior or such. If you boost non-caster damage through the roof and they start one shotting things it only tempts you as a DM to make more non damaged based encounters to avoid short boring fights.

In general I'd say leave things alone and just play nice and this usually works. But if you wanted to give casters less options and non-casters more options to encourage them more I might do something like (adjust, steal small pieces from or outright butcher this simple skeleton to your preferences):
Clerics - Cloistered, good. Also no divine power nor similar BAB fixers.
Druid - ok, no wildshape however you do it.
Wizard/sorcerer - 4/5 spell progression (skip on 5,10,15,20)
rogue, monk, fighter if you keep fighter - minor wizard casting.
ranger - (better) minor druid casting
barbarian - minor sorc casting
paladin - good, minor cleric casting like the domain idea is nice.

For minor casting I might do full caster progression but 1 spell per day per level which can't be increased by any means. You might steal pathfinder sorcerer bloodlines as a sort of arcane "domain" for minor arcane casting. In that case minor sorc/wiz casting wouldn't be much different. Dunno what to do about the ranger's minor druid casting.

[NOhara24]

Pretty good stuff, needs Ranger fix too, though.

Ah, I had completely forgotten about them. Darrin pointed out the Mystic Ranger bit, though.

As far as Druids, I stated that I wanted no one person to be able to do everything. I think making druids choose between wildshape and the animal companion is a good fit, so at least the melee members of the party aren't overshadowed by the animal companion AND the druid turning into a bear and slinging spells left and right...as a bear.

Clerics - I'll make note of the advice concerning Divine Power - only Clerics with the War Domain will have access.

Barbarian - I'm not sure that barbarians should versatile. Yes, versatility adds power, but I think it's the fluff of them that's messing with my reasoning there. They get angry and hit stuff, that's really it. Thus, they should be really good at it.

[Coidzor]

Even without going Mystic Ranger, one could just bump the casting progression to start at 1st level rather than 4th. Set their caster level to equal their class level, increase their spells per day starting with 1st level spells by 1 at 17th, then 2nd level spells by 1 at 18th, 3rd level spells by 1 at 19, and then 4th level spells by 1 at 20th so they end up having 4/4/4/4 spells per day.

Combine that with Animal Companion of level -3 and/or having Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) as a bonus feat and then gain share spells with the wild cohort at 7th or 8th level. Maybe give the wild cohort and/or animal companion the Magebred and/or Warbeast template at higher levels. Say Warbeast around 12-14ish and Magebred 16-18ish, since 12, 14, 16, and 18 are all dead levels... Potentially giving the companion the ability to use some of its master's skills over time, such as Tumble, or at least have the option to have selected skills like tumble become a class skill for the animal or even buffing the animal's skill points.

Having a more useful companion and greater access to their spell list should make them more solid, though doesn't really address the fundamental problems of their combat style setup. Maybe give them d4s at 2/3 or 3/4 or 1/2 sneak attack or skirmish progression depending upon their combat style with d6s against their favored enemies?

[Rejusu]

I'm *hopefully* going to be running a game
within the coming months or so. I came up with these house rules to
try and make it so no one player can just do everything himself, and
no one likes being the monk or rogue that becomes irrelevant at level
10.

You've done nothing to nerf batman wizards. Frankly though the best
suggestion on your list is for Fighters to just use ToB instead (worth
noting that Dungeoncrasher fighters are also an acceptable variant).
But rather than bending over backwards trying to make the meh classes
attractive why not just encourage your players to y'know... not play
them?

And trying to make it so no one player can just do everything
themselves has merit but you've got to remember that the extreme on
the other end of the scale is just as bad. No one likes a show-off
batman wizard but no one likes being a one-trick pony either. Trust me being able to do only one thing is just as bad (if not worse) than being outdone by someone who can do everything.

I once played a character whose only use was to sit there and fire an arrow every single round, and I mean his only use. A limited selection of skills (mostly combat skills too) and no spells or powers, or any kind of useful problem solving attribute scores (like strength or charisma) or any class features or feats that weren't to do with firing arrows meant he did absolutely nothing out of combat. Sure being a very SAD and well optimised Soulbow meant he could throw a lot of damage dice each round, but man was he boring.

Honestly as I said before just encourage your players to pick decent classes. Or you know just ban them from taking anything but tier 2 and 3 classes. Honestly tier 3 has the most well tuned classes, capable of being more than just a one trick pony without being fantastic at absolutely everything.

[Darrin]

Barbarian - I'm not sure that barbarians should versatile. Yes, versatility adds power, but I think it's the fluff of them that's messing with my reasoning there. They get angry and hit stuff, that's really it. Thus, they should be really good at it.

My main beef with Barbs is rage makes you recalculate their HPs... and it doesn't actually give them extra HP, it gives them "fake" HPs that go away when they drop out of rage. So I changed rage to leave their Con score alone and give them +1 temp HP per character level until the end of the encounter. Replacing rage with Whirling Frenzy or that other ACF would work just as well.

[ahenobarbi]

Honestly as I said before just encourage your players to pick decent classes. Or you know just ban them from taking anything but tier 2 and 3 classes. Honestly tier 3 has the most well tuned classes, capable of being more than just a one trick pony without being fantastic at absolutely everything.

This. Really using not-broken (about right power) classes is easier than trying to fix broken (too powerful or to powerless) classes.



Barbarian - I'm not sure that barbarians should versatile. Yes, versatility adds power, but I think it's the fluff of them that's messing with my reasoning there. They get angry and hit stuff, that's really it. Thus, they should be really good at it.

Well they should have ranks to be good at "barbaric" skills. Like: jump, ride, knowledge (nature), swim, climb, survival, handle animal, barbarian diplomacy intimidate...

If they get that they will have some out-of-combat utility.

[ericgrau]

Ooh continuing in that direction for barbarians balance is handy for melee guys. Tumble is good too, but not very fluff fitting. You might also add something like scent and track but now the ranger's getting jealous.

[NOhara24]

You've done nothing to nerf batman wizards. Frankly though the best
suggestion on your list is for Fighters to just use ToB instead (worth
noting that Dungeoncrasher fighters are also an acceptable variant).
But rather than bending over backwards trying to make the meh classes
attractive why not just encourage your players to y'know... not play
them?

And trying to make it so no one player can just do everything
themselves has merit but you've got to remember that the extreme on
the other end of the scale is just as bad. No one likes a show-off
batman wizard but no one likes being a one-trick pony either. Trust me being able to do only one thing is just as bad (if not worse) than being outdone by someone who can do everything.

I once played a character whose only use was to sit there and fire an arrow every single round, and I mean his only use. A limited selection of skills (mostly combat skills too) and no spells or powers, or any kind of useful problem solving attribute scores (like strength or charisma) or any class features or feats that weren't to do with firing arrows meant he did absolutely nothing out of combat. Sure being a very SAD and well optimised Soulbow meant he could throw a lot of damage dice each round, but man was he boring.

Honestly as I said before just encourage your players to pick decent classes. Or you know just ban them from taking anything but tier 2 and 3 classes. Honestly tier 3 has the most well tuned classes, capable of being more than just a one trick pony without being fantastic at absolutely everything.

You're assuming I haven't already weighed the options of everything you just said. Correct, I didn't do anything to sor/wiz. Why? Because I know no one in my group will play them because they're tough to optimize (compared to your average divine caster.) I'm the best optimizer in my group, by far. It's very easy to deal with a poorly optimized arcane caster.

And yes, I know that I could tell them to pick a class, but then the DM would be influencing character creation which is a big no-no. Instead of just outright banning the crap options, I'd rather try to make all the options at least good ones, even if they don't take those options.




Well they should have ranks to be good at "barbaric" skills. Like: jump, ride, knowledge (nature), swim, climb, survival, handle animal, barbarian diplomacy intimidate...

If they get that they will have some out-of-combat utility.

Good point. I'll adjust the number of skill points they get per level.


Ooh continuing in that direction for barbarians balance is handy for melee guys. Tumble is good too, but not very fluff fitting. You might also add something like scent and track but now the ranger's getting jealous.

I like the idea of giving them the scent ability.

[Telonius]

Oh, forgot one thing for Barbarian - Gain Iron Heart Surge as a bonus at level 5. When he activates it, he yells out, "BY CROM!" (Regardless of his actual deity). :smallbiggrin:

[Gnoman]

For paladins, I gave them full cleric casting (with no domains), and repalced the alignment restrictions and LG-based Code of Conduct with two wtritten codes specific to each paladin order (thus, all 9 alingments have paladins.)

[Rejusu]

You're assuming I haven't already weighed the options of everything you just said. Correct, I didn't do anything to sor/wiz. Why? Because I know no one in my group will play them because they're tough to optimize (compared to your average divine caster.) I'm the best optimizer in my group, by far. It's very easy to deal with a poorly optimized arcane caster.

Tough to optimize? Pick decent spells and you're 90% of the way there. A poorly optimized wizard is still a class that has access to the best spell list in the game.


And yes, I know that I could tell them to pick a class, but then the DM would be influencing character creation which is a big no-no. Instead of just outright banning the crap options, I'd rather try to make all the options at least good ones, even if they don't take those options.

By fiddling with the classes you're already influencing character creation. In fact short of letting your players create whatever the hell they want (even if it uses homebrew or dragon magazine) you're going to end up influencing character creation. It's unavoidable as a DM. But it's not a big no-no. Your job is to create a fun environment for your players, and often that involves limiting what they can do.

Limiting being the keyword. I'm not saying you should tell your characters what class they should play, I'm just saying if you're so worried about a balanced party you should tell them to try and pick something that's tier 3. Frankly you shouldn't even be trying to adjust classes until you actually know what your players want to play.