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View Full Version : Whose idea were Half-Orcs?



SilverLeaf167
2012-03-16, 12:07 PM
Seriously, who the heck thought of the concept of half-orcs? Given the way orcs are always described as hideous savages (in D&D, that is), what kind of human would really mate with them? I can imagine some rare pairings as possible, but why are they considered "common races" instead of a monster (like orcs are) or even better, just a footnote in some other race entry?

Is there some hidden history to this I'm just missing? The "original" orcs, Tolkien's that is, were even more monstrous than those in most popular culture.

How do you usually handle half-orcs in your campaign settings? I prefer to make them extremely rare and greatly shunned, though that works only because none of my players ever show any interest in them. And even this is in my setting, where orcs are actually somewhat less hideous and more humane.

joe
2012-03-16, 12:17 PM
If I'm not mistaken, the Uruk-Hai were crossbred with humans to make them stronger and capable of being a threat during the daylight, so that's where they would come from.

Half-orcs in my campaign are a rarity, but this is because I allow orcs as a PC race. In my campaign world, orcs are more akin to a Proud Warrior Race however, so they're less monstrous than standard orcs.

Jeraa
2012-03-16, 12:17 PM
There were half-orcs in Lord of the Rings.

Vendle
2012-03-16, 12:29 PM
In the games that I run, tribes of orcs are fairly common. Because they primarily prey on human settlements, half-orcs are not uncommon in my world. They are nearly always the offspring of a rape of a human woman by an orc male, as noted several times in various racial handbooks and setting descriptions.

I agree that the number of half-orcs in a generic setting is probably pretty low, and that leads to the question of why they enjoy the status of having their own entry in the base races of the core books. I'd say it is a combination of things:
1. Half-orcs present a more violent and savage character background than most other 'civilized' races. This gives players another option to either play to the stereotype, or to play against type if looking for a more unique but cultured/gentle/intelligent PC.
2. Half-orcs present a combination of racial adjustments and abilities that help to round out the offered base races. Depending on system of course, the half-orc is one of the only races that enjoys a +STR adjustment and darkvision which works well with certain PC builds.
3. Half-orcs are generally not attractive. Again, this has appeal to some players. Whether they intend to make great use of the Intimidate skill, or just prefer their PC be shunned by common society (part of their motive for adventuring, perhaps), it again sets them apart from the crowd.

KillianHawkeye
2012-03-16, 12:47 PM
Given the way orcs are always described as hideous savages (in D&D, that is), what kind of human would really mate with them?

The kind that doesn't have a choice.

Shadowknight12
2012-03-16, 01:25 PM
I never, ever followed any of the "Always/Usually/Often" alignment guidelines for any creature (not even Outsiders), so I kept treating orcs as any other race. Crossbreeding between races is as inevitable as the tides (what with sexuality being what it is), so half-orcs have always been a logical and natural occurrence, like half-elves.

As for "Who'd tap that?", leaving the alignment issue aside (which means orcs may be primitive, but not savage or brutal, or at least no more so than a tribe of human barbarians, for example), let's just say that I can confirm without a doubt that there are people who'd tap orcs of both genders.

Examples:

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs36/i/2008/265/d/6/Female_Half_Orc_by_staino.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j52/Asylum-Rhapsody/half-orc.jpg
http://art.alphacoders.com/images/299/29913.jpg
http://art.alphacoders.com/images/299/29911.jpg
http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp810vThtQ1qbuknmo1_500.jpg

Tanuki Tales
2012-03-16, 01:28 PM
The kind that doesn't have a choice.

And the kind that don't find them hideous or monstrous.

Different strokes for different folks.

eggs
2012-03-16, 01:59 PM
I can imagine some rare pairings as possible, but why are they considered "common races" instead of a monster (like orcs are) or even better, just a footnote in some other race entry?
Their original backstory was rape. Period.

I'm going to guess WotC wanted to maintain the contents of TSR's game, but quell the moral outrage that defined early D&D's public image, so they not only turned Half-Orcs into a non-evil, non-rape-based race, they shoved that race into the PHB so it was clear that WotC was trying to fix the issues of moral concern.

Also, there aren't many not-totally-evil creatures that fill the "Dumb Bruiser" metagame niche.

Bastian Weaver
2012-03-16, 02:02 PM
There were half-orcs in Lord of the Rings.

There weren't. Saruman's Uruk-Hai were more human-like than "normal" orcs, but I don't think he used cross-breeding for that. He was a wizard, after all.

Tanuki Tales
2012-03-16, 02:26 PM
There weren't. Saruman's Uruk-Hai were more human-like than "normal" orcs, but I don't think he used cross-breeding for that. He was a wizard, after all.

Yes there were. (http://www.tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Half-orcs)

Jeraa
2012-03-16, 02:30 PM
There weren't. Saruman's Uruk-Hai were more human-like than "normal" orcs, but I don't think he used cross-breeding for that. He was a wizard, after all.

Yes there were. The Two Towers specifically calls them half-orcs, in chapter 7 (Helm's Deep).

There are other places that at the least imply there are half-orcs.

Fellowship of the ring, chapter "Knife in the Dark". One of the men is described as"looking more then half like a goblin."

In The Two Towers (chapter "Treebeard") Treebeard wonders how Saruman created his orcs, whether they are corrupted men or a blend of Orcs and Men.

Sarumans army had many normal Men, but also other men that were "Man high, but with goblin faces", which Aragon calls half-orcs. (Two Towers, "Flotsam and Jetsam".)

Premier
2012-03-16, 02:46 PM
Yes, there were, sort of. They're mentioned and some characters speculate on how they might be the results of crossbeeding humans with orcs (goblins), but it's never stated as an absolute fact.

And to clarify, because some people seem to have the wrong idea: the Uruk-hai are something completely different. They're just a bigger, stronger, improved version of orcs, not half-breeds.


EDIT: Oh, and re. the OP... Maybe the offspring of two half-orcs is another half-orc, so once you had enough of them, the population became self-sustaining - it's not like they'd easily get any with anyone else other than another half-orc, anyway.

Or maybe a divine curse transformed an entire population of humans (or orcs or anything else, really) into half-orc as a punishment for some sort of transgression. Or maybe they were cursed to only be attracted to orcs. If dragons and magic spells don't break your suspension of disbelief, then neither should this.

Tanuki Tales
2012-03-16, 03:01 PM
Huzzah, I was the ninja for once. :smalltongue:

Balain
2012-03-16, 03:02 PM
I remember 1st edition ad&d dying half orcs were the result of rapes and so were not accepted in human or orc society.

I also seem to recall the Uruk hai being a cros bred of Orcs and goblins. I always thought half orcs and Uruk hai in middle earth are two different cross breeds.

Dr.Epic
2012-03-16, 03:03 PM
Seriously, who the heck thought of the concept of half-orcs? Given the way orcs are always described as hideous savages (in D&D, that is), what kind of human would really mate with them?

It's called alcohol my friend.:smallwink:

Xefas
2012-03-16, 03:04 PM
Given the way orcs are always described as hideous savages (in D&D, that is), what kind of human would really mate with them?

Oh, that's easy. How many player characters out there are a member of an evil race that is intentionally playing against type to give themselves extra depth and dramatic internal conflict? Now take that ratio, and expand it to all adventurers.

What you have now is a massive community of inexplicably noble orcs wandering the lands with huge sacks full of cash, who can't help but spend their time around beautiful human women stoically brooding about this hideous outward visage they were cursed to bear.

Suddenly, half-orcs everywhere.

Bastian Weaver
2012-03-16, 03:16 PM
Like Premier said... the term was there, but there were no characters conceived by an orc and a human being.

Tanuki Tales
2012-03-16, 03:59 PM
Like Premier said... the term was there, but there were no characters conceived by an orc and a human being.

Yeah...I dug up the article first, thanks.

And the origins of the Half-Orcs is unknown and one of them posited was interbreeding between Man and Orc.

Surfing HalfOrc
2012-03-16, 09:04 PM
It's called alcohol my friend.:smallwink:

I ain't never gone to bed with an ugly woman, but I shore have woke up with a few! :smallbiggrin:

Nah, not really. Old joke.

There are several reasons for half-orcs, depending on the creativity of the player. Usually the story is: mother raped by orcs, became pregnant, raised the child with love, even though the rest of the villagers were cruel. Seen this story more than 80% of the times players bring Half-orcs to the table. Pretty much cliche' at this point.

Others include: Human male warrior meets Orc female warrior, love and lust from sweaty battle arises.
Humans and Orcs live near each other in harsh environment, marriage and children follow for sheer survival.
Orcs conquer a kingdom, everyone loves a winner.
Humans conquer Orc kingdom... everyone STILL loves a winner! :smalltongue:
Third power conquers both human and orc kingdoms, seeks to create a "super-race" from "inferior stock." Hijinks ensue.

This is why I liked Therkla's story so much. Her mom wasn't the brightest copper piece in the fountain, but her love for her husband was genuine. Nice break from the usual pattern.

deuxhero
2012-03-16, 09:19 PM
There were half-orcs in Lord of the Rings.

In other words, like everything else in modern fantasy: Tolkien Plagiarism

HunterOfJello
2012-03-16, 09:27 PM
Either horny orcs with a thing for ugly human women or big gruff human men with a thing for muscular green women.


Why aren't there Half-Hobgoblins? Hobgoblins are WAY more badass than orcs.

Hiro Protagonest
2012-03-16, 09:44 PM
Examples:

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs36/i/2008/265/d/6/Female_Half_Orc_by_staino.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j52/Asylum-Rhapsody/half-orc.jpg
http://art.alphacoders.com/images/299/29913.jpg
http://art.alphacoders.com/images/299/29911.jpg
http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp810vThtQ1qbuknmo1_500.jpg

Eh, they all look like elves or humans or half-elves with muscles and different skin color. The last one is the only one I'd think of as remotely looking like an orc.

Anyway, in another thread about why the hell orc women are sometimes portrayed as attractive female athletes with green skin and tusks(or something along those lines) and how the orcs would find different people attractive that the humans, someone posted something, which the basic message of is this:
The human prefers to sleep with a human
The orc prefers to sleep with an orc
Both think either is better than sleeping alone

Pokonic
2012-03-16, 09:59 PM
Third power conquers both human and orc kingdoms, seeks to create a "super-race" from "inferior stock." Hijinks ensue.



"Hey, everyone needs a hobby, including dragons!"


No, realy. Think of it like how a horse-breeder chooses his next stud. Big buff guy, not quite dumb, and a nice gal with perfect baby-bearing hips and cute little tusks. Go down a few generations and stuff, and you have your standerdised half-orc. :smalltongue:

Actualy, my Half-orcs in my setting(es) tend to come from the desert, where you might as well marry into the clan whose ability to survive is most apperent, regardless of what you might suggest. The other default is that there the result of tribes from the north meeting, marrages/wife taking/ect occuring, and the fact that the resulting bouncing baby boy has little tusks is overlooked for the fact that he can lift weights men twice his age cannot and survive and prosper. And of course, if your men-folk are dieing left and right, who's to say that those pink-skinned guys the next camp over arn't taken?

And besides, to a hardened man living off his land, what's the use of a wife if she cannot carry a pig under each arm and lead the cows by the horns? Hence, orcish blood might be seen as a positive trait because the chances of your kid being sickly and "unmanly" goes down by far, and your daughter's are certent to bear you more grandchilderen than the more "civilised" folk the next camp over.

Shadowknight12
2012-03-16, 10:00 PM
Eh, they all look like elves or humans or half-elves with muscles and different skin color. The last one is the only one I'd think of as remotely looking like an orc.

Reading that gave me an aneurysm of pure nerd rage. Orcs ARE muscled elves. That's exactly what they are in Tolkien fantasy, elves corrupted by Morgoth and trained to be the best warriors ever. So that depiction is entirely in keeping with the fantasy trope. If we're going to keep depicting elves as fair-skinned, hairless, lithe, magical tree-huggers, orcs have their appearance tropes too.

Also I had images of more orc-looking... orcs, but they were too sexy for this board. Go do a google search with the safe filtre off and you'll see it for yourself.

Lord Raziere
2012-03-16, 11:21 PM
Actually, by medieval standards, orcs would be pretty hot, and elves would be not.

you see medieval times revolved around fear of famine and such. food was hard to come by, so whatever you got, was whatever you got.

this lead to associating people with a lot of girth and thickness and muscles as being healthier, since they are obviously more well-fed. therefore, hotter, regardless of gender.

meanwhile, thin people weren't regarded as healthy at all since that shows clear signs of being underfed, and not the ideal person to raise kids with.

orcs? well muscled, tough, thick fighters. probably big eaters too. if orcs and elves actually lived in medieval times, the orcs would be the ones considered attractive, since the elves are clearly unhealthy underfed stick people, not good material at all. its only from our modern perspective removed from the realities of medieval life that we consider elves "hotter".

erikun
2012-03-16, 11:22 PM
Why aren't there Half-Hobgoblins? Hobgoblins are WAY more badass than orcs.
Because Hobgoblins are way more badass than orcs, and don't need any wussy half-hobs holding them back. :smalltongue:

A bit more seriously, the answer has already been provided. There are elves, half-elves, dwarves, hobbits halflings, and half-orcs in as PCs in D&D because they were all races in Lord of the Rings. Oddly enough, LotR orcs were more whimpy goblinoid creatures that were strengthened by cross-breeding them with humans, but D&D seems to ignore that.

Coidzor
2012-03-16, 11:53 PM
Why aren't there Half-Hobgoblins? Hobgoblins are WAY more badass than orcs.

Because unlike the Drow, Hobbos don't sleep with the help.

Zale
2012-03-17, 05:02 AM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_MxvjilNC5_s/THGAh0smVjI/AAAAAAAAAbw/CerpxeU5eWA/s1600/orc_chicks.jpg

If you are a peasant, wouldn't you want a wife/husband who could probably run five miles while carrying a pig under each arm, as well as be ready to totally annihilate anything that so much as looked at you funny?

At least they won't talk you do death about trees (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#elves), or constantly angst about their back-stories (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#drow).

Waddacku
2012-03-17, 05:08 AM
I also seem to recall the Uruk hai being a cros bred of Orcs and goblins.
Impossible, since Orc and goblin are synonymous in Tolkien's works. Merely different names for the same creatures.

PersonMan
2012-03-17, 05:48 AM
Impossible, since Orc and goblin are synonymous in Tolkien's works. Merely different names for the same creatures.

Meaning that, technically he'd be correct if the Uruk Hai were either.

Orc = crossbreed between goblin (orc) and orc (goblin).

Waddacku
2012-03-17, 05:53 AM
I'd have to argue that that doesn't qualify as a crossbreed.

The Succubus
2012-03-17, 05:55 AM
Someone who really, *really* liked Orcs. :smallwink:

Rappy
2012-03-17, 05:57 AM
Considering the sheer panorama of sexuality for humans, a species with no known other sapient creatures beyond those of their own imagination, it's not hard at all for me to imagine orc-sexuals.

Surfing HalfOrc
2012-03-17, 06:30 AM
The Glyphstone originally posted this one:

Human: "Hey, elf, you look like a girl!"
Elf: "You're a human, everything must look like a girl to you."
Human: "What does that mean?"
Elf: "Half-elf, half-orc, half-dragon, half-celestial..."
Human: "Shut up."
Elf: "Half-elemental, half-fiend, half-giant, half-troll, half-vampire..."
Human: "SHUT! UP!"
Elf:...
Human:...
Elf: "Centaurs."

If it moves, have at it. If it doesn't move... Nudge it with your toe. :smallbiggrin:

Cerlis
2012-03-17, 06:58 AM
I dont like the notion of saying that attractive orc pics are just elves or attractive humans with green skin and tusks.

All those races are basically humans with a few different features to make them alien and different.

Now since elves where the "good" race, orcs where the bad. and you dont want to have the bad race look anything but disgusting and terrifying (well, back then you didnt) SO naturally the first ones where ugly.

The only common thing among orcs is Tusks, offcolored skin (usually green), and a savage appearance (which can be attained via clothing). So just like all you have to do is slap pointed ears on a human for it to be an elf, the only difference between a human and an orc is muscle, green skin, and tusks.

At least they have more alien features. You'd figure with the simularity between humans and elves that both races would have gone extinct and both replaced by a race of half-elves.

--------------

I'd also like to take the opportunity to bring up the backstory of a half orc i created (though never play anymore) in the warcraft universe. For many years the majority of orcs where in human controlled internment camps. THe notion was that one of the soldiers/mid ranking officers wasnt a total prick and saw his charges as sentient beings. Due to proximity and his sympathy a re-occuring encounter with the characters mother resulted in the character's existence (if you get my drift).

Though he was still a slave/prisoner the captian made sure he and his mother where treated right, and he grew up with respect for his father (If i read right, based on thrall's story, those orcs become bigger than humans by their 13th year). When Thrall's army attacked, he honestly didnt know what to do. Protect his father from the invaders, or run off with his saviors (invaders and saviors being the same people). His decision was made for him , as in order to save his mother he had to leave his father to his fate/death.

Dealing with the fact that the one who fathered him and treated him justly...was his jailor, and the fact that his people and saviors lead to the death of his father he seeks to honor both sides of his heritage. Seeing himself as a noble orc who aspires to be a noble warrior like his father, without forsaking his orcish heritage.

------------------

I was inspired when i saw a facial feature combination which had skin tone yellowish greenish tan (what i'd imagine would be a mix of orc light green and human peach), blue eyes, red hair, and a hairstyle that is remarkably simular (if unkempt ) to a human hairstyle.

if not for his broad skull, skin tone and tusks, he'd be the spitting image of his father. (and for a few seconds here and there considered making an avatar for the father for ****s and giggles)

Wulfram
2012-03-17, 07:13 AM
I think half-orcs mostly became a playable race as a way to effectively let people play orcs while leaving the full blooded orcs as always chaotic evil types you could kill without qualms.

But when you move away from them being frequently the result of rape, that stops making sense. If orcs can fall in love with humans and have children with them, then they're "human" enough that they should be a playable

jackattack
2012-03-17, 10:15 AM
A few random notes.

1. The LotR novels were written in the 1940s, and despite Tolkien's own progressive views concerning race, they are a product of their time. Descriptions of Dunlendings as looking goblinish are not much different from RL vilification of Germans and Japanese in WWII. Some of the Tolkien references to half-orcs can probably be discounted as "accidentally" ("temporally"? "environmentally"?) racist, or purposefully prejudicial to show the perspective of the main characters.

2. The original game materials were published in the 1970s, and they are a product of their time as well. Attitudes about sexuality, interracial relationships, and rape were varied, different, and very much in flux. The sexual revolution produced an "anything goes" philosophy (for some), interracial relationships were barely tolerated, and rape was considered a topic for jokes on primetime television. In retrospect, it isn't surprising that half-orcs were, at the same time, both allowed and only allowed to be the product of rape.

3. Personally, I prefer "a wizard did it". So, apparently, does Peter Jackson. And given that Morgoth created orcs by messing up elves, it isn't a huge leap that Saruman could create uruks by messing with orcs.

Coidzor
2012-03-17, 01:00 PM
Considering the sheer panorama of sexuality for humans, a species with no known other sapient creatures beyond those of their own imagination, it's not hard at all for me to imagine orc-sexuals.

Heck, there's probably some on these very boards. It's no more far-fetched than furries or otherkin, of which we have several.

Kish
2012-03-17, 01:57 PM
Uruk-Hai were half-human in the books and "half-orc, half-goblin" in the movies.

That the latter amounted to, "Half-orc, other half also orc," Peter Jackson apparently either didn't know or didn't care.

Morty
2012-03-17, 02:00 PM
I'm pretty sure Uruk-Hai were simply a big, mean breed of orcs that Saruman happened to employ, but they were also found in Sauron's armies - they were mentioned by Gandalf in Moria and by Shagrat and Gorbag in Shelob's tunnels. Saruman's half-orcs weren't Uruk-Hai. I could be wrong, though. And either way, what Jackson did with them was a mess.

Pokonic
2012-03-17, 02:27 PM
Heck, there's probably some on these very boards. It's no more far-fetched than furries or otherkin, of which we have several.

Just ask for a few on the Dungens and Dreamboat's thread. They could presumably hook you up with a selection of the finest orcish women and men this side of Ebberon.

LibraryOgre
2012-03-18, 01:02 PM
In other words, like everything else in modern fantasy: Tolkien Plagiarism

Not entirely, as there's many folks in mythology who were part human, part non-human race; a number of folks Nordic lore who are supposed to have Troll blood, or the like.

Tolkien codified these into a few races.

hamishspence
2012-03-18, 01:16 PM
I'm pretty sure Uruk-Hai were simply a big, mean breed of orcs that Saruman happened to employ, but they were also found in Sauron's armies - they were mentioned by Gandalf in Moria and by Shagrat and Gorbag in Shelob's tunnels. Saruman's half-orcs weren't Uruk-Hai. I could be wrong, though. And either way, what Jackson did with them was a mess.

Sauron's Uruk Hai were big and unafraid of sunlight (though disliking it)
They first appeared at the assault on Osgiliath some 500 years before the events in LoTR.

Saruman's were different enough for Aragorn to comment on their unusual appearance- specifically, straight legs compared to the crooked legs of normal Uruks.

And half-orcs also make an appearence,

In Unfinished Tales, part of the commentary discusses Saruman's rediscovery of the secret- and his wickedest deed, "the creation of Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile".

The sections that mention it are the Disaster at the Gladden Fields (where it discusses that Saruman may have found Isildur's body and burned the bones, since they found the box Isildur kept the Ring in, in Saruman's treasury- "a shameful deed, but not his worst."- with the worst being the recreation of the Uruk-hai) and the section on the Battle at the Fords of Isen where Eomer's cousin Theodred is attacked and slain by Uruks & half-orcs.



1. The LotR novels were written in the 1940s, and despite Tolkien's own progressive views concerning race, they are a product of their time. Descriptions of Dunlendings as looking goblinish are not much different from RL vilification of Germans and Japanese in WWII. Some of the Tolkien references to half-orcs can probably be discounted as "accidentally" ("temporally"? "environmentally"?) racist, or purposefully prejudicial to show the perspective of the main characters.

Since the novel specifically states that the Dunlendings in Saruman's army were "grim but not particularly evil-looking" when compared to the half-orcs, I don't think so.

In Unfinished Tales, the "squint-eyed southerner" at Bree, whom Aragorn and the hobbits compared the half-orcs to, is "a ruffianly fellow" stated to have been driven from Dunland "where many believed he had orc blood" - and Saruman's spy in Bree, before the Nazgul found him, got the info about Saruman's seeking the Ring for himself, and intimidated him into spying for them instead of Saruman.

deuxhero
2012-03-18, 11:44 PM
Not entirely, as there's many folks in mythology who were part human, part non-human race; a number of folks Nordic lore who are supposed to have Troll blood, or the like.

Tolkien codified these into a few races.

And my point was everyone else copied those few races.

LibraryOgre
2012-03-18, 11:51 PM
And my point was everyone else copied those few races.

Yes, but Tolkien copied them from elsewhere. Near humans are not exactly uncommon in mythologies.

nedz
2012-03-20, 05:38 PM
So is there a literary reference to Half-Orcs prior to LoTR ?
This is the only way to test this question evidentially.

Tengu_temp
2012-03-20, 06:17 PM
There are no literary references to orcs prior to LotR. Tolkien invented them.

hamishspence
2012-03-20, 06:26 PM
There were "orks" before Tolkien's "orcs"- which he used as inspiration- but those were more folklore than literature.

nedz
2012-03-20, 07:52 PM
Well Beowulf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc#Etymology)apparently. Or Orkney perhaps ? (same ref). But the meanings were slightly different so maybe they don't count ?

Fhaolan
2012-03-20, 08:37 PM
There are no literary references to orcs prior to LotR. Tolkien invented them.

Technically there are literary refrences to orcs prior to Tolkien, but they meant slightly different things. They were not referring to big goblinoids, but demons, bogeymen, and full-on ogres in various Old Norse and Saxon tales. Of course in other tales not far away, ork may refer not to a goblin but a *goblet*, just to make things fun.

However, once you hit ogres, you wander into troll territory, and humans with troll blood are also a really common trope in Norse tales. Of course then you wander a bit further mythologically speaking and trolls blur with dwarves, gnomes, and stuff just keeps going downhill from there.

It's one of those problems with mythology is that it's not quite as cut and dried as textbooks like to portray it. Hear a myth, and go ten miles to the southeast and likely you'll hear a non-identical variant. Go another ten miles in the same direction and yet again a different take on the same myth. Go a a few hundred miles and you won't even recognize the myth anymore because all the names and descriptions have changed. But if you could actually trace the myth along the route you could see how one myth changed into another. It's like the old game of telegraph (dating myself, I am, yes. I don't know what it's called now. Telephone? Email? That last one doesn't make a lot of sense, but hey, who am I to judge?)

Saladman
2012-03-20, 11:27 PM
I can take or leave half-orcs: I don't have the first poster's problem with them, but I agree there's a case for manning up and allowing full orcs or hobgoblins if you want a bestial player race.

My own extension of the logic of half-orcs is that most would have been born to captives and raised by orc tribes. And the stronger ones might well achieve respect and even leadership positions. Something like the dark side of American Indian "adoption" where someone who acts like a member of the tribe is fully accepted, but risks death if they act out or aren't loyal. Anyway, it follows that most half-orcs would be functionally just as evil as regular orcs (however evil that is); noble/good/angsty playable half-orcs would be a small fraction of all those born, but it could happen from time to time.

Strormer
2012-03-21, 01:11 AM
Why aren't there Half-Hobgoblins?

Actually, there are. Kingdoms of Kalamar brought them into existence and they're honestly some of my favorite PC races. KoK is one of the best settings out there, though, so that's that.

As for half-orcs. Well, there is precedence for attractive half-orcs, though I'd have a hard time pulling out specific examples. Most of the more attractive half-orcs are though to be more like quarter-orcs than half. Either way, they're not terrible. I tend to just play orcs rather than half-breeds, but I have them in the campaign all the same.

Wardog
2012-03-24, 10:44 PM
There are several reasons for half-orcs, depending on the creativity of the player. Usually the story is: mother raped by orcs, became pregnant,

I think Warcraft also has the reverse occuring (after the orcs were defeated and stuck in concentration camps).

Roxxy
2012-03-24, 11:09 PM
In other words, like everything else in modern fantasy: Tolkien PlagiarismTolkien was neither the sole nor largest source of ideas for the creators of Dungeons and Dragons. Furtheremore, D&D orcs are rather different from Tolkien orcs. I would neither call all modern fantasy or all D&D Tolkien plagiarism, nor call D&D orcs Tolkien plagiarism. Tolkien inspired? In parts, yes, and orcs are one of those parts, but not out and out plagiarised.

nedz
2012-03-25, 12:52 PM
Having read lots of pre-tolkein fantasy I have to say that what he did was genre forming. This said he was one of a group of writers which included C.S.Lewis and Mervin Peake, who all knew each other quite well.

Tolkein never set out to write fantasy with the intention of creating new gaming mileaux; and the works of other, albeit later, writers were perhaps more relevant to that end. Tolkein's aim was to create an english mythology and since D&D draws heavily upon all mythologies, it draws upon his.

It has to be said that there is a lot of derivative fantasy around, much of it Tolkeinesque. I don't think this influenced the game design much.

Gygax and Arneson went on record as to their actual influences, so there is no debate here really.

inexorabletruth
2012-03-28, 11:51 AM
Actually, Bastards & Bloodlines covers the rules for cross-breeding pretty much any two races you want... even things that don't appear to have gender roles.

The question is, why play a half-orc? Penalties to INT and CHA, so skill-wise they really can't have nice things; Orc-blooded so they're weak against all the things Orcs are weak against; Dazzled in daylight or by many types of light spells.

And what are the bennies?
+2 STR
Darkvision
The ability to use magic items only available to Orcs.

...

And I have never been able to figure out what those exclusive magic items are. Now, if someone knows what those magic items are and can assure me that they are awesome, then I retract my statement about Half-Orcs being a disappointing base race, but Darkvision isn't really all that great, when light spells, sunrods, torches, and various magical items with the Darkvision property exists, and that +2 to STR doesn't counter-balance the -4 in penalties by a long shot. Throw in a +2 to CON or DEX to make him a decent beatstick, and you've got a PC, maybe.

Idk... I like the Half-Orc, fluff wise. Such a great concept... such a bad build.

Particle_Man
2012-03-28, 01:26 PM
I think half-orcs mostly became a playable race as a way to effectively let people play orcs while leaving the full blooded orcs as always chaotic evil types you could kill without qualms.

Well, Lawful Evil in 1st ed. :)

In Pathfinder, amusingly, you could play a genius wizard orc or a charismatic paladin/sorcerer orc as the stat bonus can go anywhere and there are no stat penalties.

Darth Stabber
2012-03-28, 09:35 PM
The campaign setting I usually run has a very odd premise on the elf/orc/human front.

In the beginning there were no humans, but there were orcs and elves. Eventually interbreeding happened and the first humans were the result. This why men have no racial pantheon (they weren't created by the gods). So a half-orc, by the mechanical definition, is actually 3/4 orc 1/4 elf. After tens of thousands of generations pure orcs and elves cannot interbreed, but that matters little given their mixed progeny have already surpassed their combined population. I have put a fair bit of thought into this system, and that part wasn't nearly as hard as accounting for all the various Half-X templates.

GenericGuy
2012-03-29, 12:42 PM
The campaign setting I usually run has a very odd premise on the elf/orc/human front.

In the beginning there were no humans, but there were orcs and elves. Eventually interbreeding happened and the first humans were the result. This why men have no racial pantheon (they weren't created by the gods). So a half-orc, by the mechanical definition, is actually 3/4 orc 1/4 elf. After tens of thousands of generations pure orcs and elves cannot interbreed, but that matters little given their mixed progeny have already surpassed their combined population. I have put a fair bit of thought into this system, and that part wasn't nearly as hard as accounting for all the various Half-X templates.

Funny I do they exact opposite for my racial origins.

In the beginning there were only humans and no one knows how the world came to be, still very stone age (so no nations or cities just tribes). Then three gods discovered the world and decided to remake it in their image, so they uplifted a group of humans by giving them long life and the ability to do magic (Elves). The Elves were told by the gods that they’re instruments of divine will, have the sacred duty of civilizing the world, and had the right to dominate all other living things on the world. So, Humans are enslaved for thousands of years, rebel, the Holy Elven Empire fractures in civil war, and the humans “kill” one of the gods and steal its magic. The vestigial southern Elven Empire still needs slaves, so like their gods, they decide to breed a new race from humans (Orcs).

In my setting Orcs are extremely lawful (who wants a slave that is disobedient?), but some do flee the southern empire into human lands. However Orcs genetic makeup is “unstable,” they need a human parent every couple of generation or the preceding offspring become unthinking beasts that rampage until death. The Elves usually just raid human lands for breeding slaves, but free Orcs become ticking time bombs if not enough humans take a liking to Orcish looks.

lt_murgen
2012-03-29, 02:27 PM
I usually just pick the simplest answer:

Humans are horny bastards, its one of their racial characteristics. For some odd reason, they seem capable of producing hybrids with just about anything:

half elf, half orc, half ogre, half giant, half dragon (not all pricessess mind being taken captive), mermaid, merman, etc, etc, etc.

HeirophantX
2012-03-29, 04:03 PM
I did a write-up for Orcs in a homebrew world ages ago for a Runequest game. In my setting Orcs and humans shared common ancestors with humans having evolved into dwellers on the plains and coasts and Orcs niche being rocky, cavey, canyoney places. Though in the setting there was a large wasteland area where they could have had some genetic isolation.

Anyhow, the story arc involved my Rome-ripoff stoking civil/religious/economic war among my Celt ripoff tribes. The traditionalists believed that kingship passed through the mother's line but my psuedoRomans felt otherwise and had found supporters among the psuedoCelts who were going to use their new southern friends to rise to power as new members of the Empire.

The players tribe is out of the running for the Kingship because they suffered an Orc raid 15 years ago which entailed several of their women-folk who carried the royal line being kidnapped.

Well, one day this young man shows up outside the village. He "looks foreign" but he must be rich because he's got a good war-gear, and strangely, not only does he speak our language but he speaks it with OUR accent? WTF? Of course the lad is looking for some likely men to help him to free his mother from bondage at the hand of a cruel Orc-band. Naturally there are volunteers and they go off. They get to the Orc-hold and are led in through the secret door, defeat the Orcs, etc. Helped by the timely intervention/uprising of a few other well-equipped young men in the encampment.

The "heroes" now meet the women that they've rescued and realize that not only are they the mothers of these sons who are now, apparently half-orcs and kin, as the freed women are their missing kinswomen from the long-ago raid. And this half-orc boy-hero is the rightful king of their tribe...

Particle_Man
2012-03-29, 04:23 PM
Half-dragons have the horndog edge. There are even half-dragon black puddings!

Serpentine
2012-03-29, 04:54 PM
Relevant:
http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/3/7/e9ee1f8d-0361-4687-b8ac-f7317d7d7763.jpg

Pokonic
2012-03-29, 05:29 PM
Theres a old joke about half-dragons that should be said:

"I told you to slay the dragon, not lay the dragon!"

inexorabletruth
2012-03-30, 09:22 AM
Relevant:
http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/3/7/e9ee1f8d-0361-4687-b8ac-f7317d7d7763.jpg

I fail to see your point... literally. Source? Either the image is kind of blurry, or I need new glasses, but now my curiosity is piqued so I have to see the comic from which that demotivator was derived.

Particle_Man
2012-03-30, 10:05 AM
I have new glasses. :smallcool:

The comic: 2 orcs (a male and female) have human prisoners, the male orc tortures human prisoners in front of the main prisoner (a baron) forcing him to watch. The baron convinces the female orc to convince the male orc to stop (she hits the male orc). The male orc stops (and goes to watch tv?). The baron is grateful to the female orc.

Very grateful. Half-orc producing grateful. :smallwink:

Thus, the half-orc background can be disturbing even in the absence of rape.

Serpentine
2012-03-30, 11:45 AM
I fail to see your point... literally. Source? Either the image is kind of blurry, or I need new glasses, but now my curiosity is piqued so I have to see the comic from which that demotivator was derived.Yeah, it kinda got squished. It's from Yet Another Fantasy Gamer Comic, a flash-back describing how the orc leader's half-orc son was conceived. The section starts here (http://yafgc.net/?id=103).
My point, inasmuch as I have one, is that half-orc origins usually involve rape, but they don't have to (the "disturbing" bit was mostly just for humour value...).

Also. (http://yafgc.net/?id=151)

Coidzor
2012-03-30, 01:41 PM
Well, that guys art can be quite disturbing in its own right.

And Orcs are sort of Cow-Pig Furries with a bit of Ogre mixed in.... Still not sure how I feel about that design decision.

FatJose
2012-03-30, 01:52 PM
Well, that guys art can be quite disturbing in its own right.

And Orcs are sort of Cow-Pig Furries with a bit of Ogre mixed in.... Still not sure how I feel about that design decision.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foB1Vccbo5k

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/86/D%26DOrc.JPG/200px-D%26DOrc.JPG

http://images.wikia.com/polaqu/images/d/d8/Orc.jpg

Sounds about right considering it's a blatant D&D webcomic.

Particle_Man
2012-03-30, 02:16 PM
Miss Piggy would fit right in. :)

Coidzor
2012-03-30, 02:19 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foB1Vccbo5k

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/86/D%26DOrc.JPG/200px-D%26DOrc.JPG

http://images.wikia.com/polaqu/images/d/d8/Orc.jpg

Sounds about right considering it's a blatant D&D webcomic.

You don't see any difference between those two images? :smallconfused:

I mean, even laying aside that the fanbase and conceptions of orcs have marched on, those two pictures you've linked don't resemble one another very much at all.

t209
2012-03-30, 02:28 PM
Here's the non disturbing version (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html)? Well, if you think if Azurites proceeded to lynch Therkla's parents.

FatJose
2012-04-01, 06:39 PM
You don't see any difference between those two images? :smallconfused:

I mean, even laying aside that the fanbase and conceptions of orcs have marched on, those two pictures you've linked don't resemble one another very much at all.

Snout's shorter. It's still a pigman. The webcomic seems to go for an Older edition look but I felt it was right to point out how they didn't move too far from model in 3.5. There's a lot about D&D people rewrite on-mass to be the norm. Elves not looking like the phb or monster manual describe and exaggerating their information to make them out to be more genocidal, for instance. The other common change is just ignoring all art and descriptions in books and making orcs green and more humanish because it's more popular.

I think Faerun is most to blame, since it's most popular in 3.5 and the elves appearing almost identical to human and orc being less piggish was fluff from the setting. I'm fine with all that but the books have a specific look in mind and I don't see how it's weird that someone actually used the designs from the core games. If it helps make a comparison, even when 3rd edition was new no one's orcs really were described like the MM.

Coidzor
2012-04-01, 09:55 PM
{{scrubbed}}

Marlowe
2012-04-02, 10:39 AM
YAFGC's art is extremely Disneyesque....Disnesque.....Disnesquesque....thin gy. Hell, one character spent most of one story arc in a Maleficent costume. Anthromorphic bodies and animal faces are very much part of the style.

Also, he likes to draw nude people. A lot.

I agree the Orcs look odd. I like his Goblins though.

FatJose
2012-04-02, 11:43 AM
There's no polite way to say this, so I'm just going to say this directly. Your view of the two images is fundamentally flawed if you cannot tell the difference between an anthropromorphic pig-hippo and a hairy, noseless ogroid with tusks.

My first orc was from Warcraft. Didn't know anything about Tolkien before then. When I first was introduced to D&D and saw 3.5 orcs my first reaction from seeing that image that I linked wasn't.

"Oh, it's an ogroid." Especially not an ogroid with tusks. That's redundant.

Nope, I saw a pigman. The only difference is that one has been given a more humanish face, probably partly because of other media and possibly also because making them look more human would make half-orcs more plausible.

t209
2012-04-02, 11:45 AM
YAFGC's art is extremely Disneyesque....Disnesque.....Disnesquesque....thin gy. Hell, one character spent most of one story arc in a Maleficent costume. Anthromorphic bodies and animal faces are very much part of the style.

Also, he likes to draw nude people. A lot.

I agree the Orcs look odd. I like his Goblins though.

Don't complain the orcs in YAFGC. YAFGC is not skyrim, warcraft 3 or any media that shows them as green humans with fangs, Rich (the other Rich) is more of a classic D&D player.

Marlowe
2012-04-02, 11:52 AM
Don't complain the orcs in YAFGC. YAFGC is not skyrim, warcraft 3 or any media that shows them as green humans with fangs, Rich (the other Rich) is more of a classic D&D player.

I wasn't complaining. I said they looked odd. They are drawn as humans with animal faces. Like I said, Disney.

I have no idea what this "Skyrim" is that you keep talking about everytime you post. I have a vague idea there's this game called Warcraft 3 that people in Korea play. And I don't know why anyone has ever assumed that Orcs are supposed to be green.

t209
2012-04-02, 12:01 PM
I wasn't complaining. I said they looked odd. They are drawn as humans with animal faces. Like I said, Disney.

I have no idea what this "Skyrim" is that you keep talking about everytime you post. I have a vague idea there's this game called Warcraft 3 that people in Korea play. And I don't know why anyone has ever assumed that Orcs are supposed to be green.

Skyrim is a videogame from Bethesda. It's one of the game to show Orcs as human like figure (and playable character).
edit: take a good look
http://www.ps3blog.net/wp-content/uploads/skyrim-orc1.jpg

chaosgirl
2012-04-02, 01:33 PM
Well as of 3.X Orcs were only, what a -2 to charisma? so you could still have a pretty darn good looking, charming orc that im sure more than a few people would want to go to bed with

Fallbot
2012-04-02, 02:26 PM
YAFGC's art is extremely Disneyesque....Disnesque.....Disnesquesque....thin gy. Hell, one character spent most of one story arc in a Maleficent costume. Anthromorphic bodies and animal faces are very much part of the style.


If I remember rightly, the author is professionally a storyboard artist, hence the cartoonyness.

Nothing on topic to contribute. Sorry!

inexorabletruth
2012-04-02, 03:08 PM
Yeah, it kinda got squished. It's from Yet Another Fantasy Gamer Comic, a flash-back describing how the orc leader's half-orc son was conceived. The section starts here (http://yafgc.net/?id=103).
My point, inasmuch as I have one, is that half-orc origins usually involve rape, but they don't have to (the "disturbing" bit was mostly just for humour value...).

Also. (http://yafgc.net/?id=151)

Thank you, Particle Man and Serpentine. :smallsmile:

t209
2012-04-02, 03:55 PM
Well as of 3.X Orcs were only, what a -2 to charisma? so you could still have a pretty darn good looking, charming orc that im sure more than a few people would want to go to bed with

or Humans are racist (or fantastic racist).

Manga Maniac
2012-04-02, 06:19 PM
There are a whole number of reasons for the creation of half-orcs, many of them hard to explain. Some say it was desire to add a darker and edgier race, others say it was to create a version of humanity more begrudging and STR-based. I have my own theory:

"hey gaiz lets make a random halfhuman version of this random specie"

More seriously, in Tolkien's case it probably was to make a more darker and edgier race. You ever seen normal Tolkien orcs? Dudes are scary.

Marlowe
2012-04-02, 07:38 PM
Skyrim is a videogame from Bethesda. It's one of the game to show Orcs as human like figure (and playable character).
edit: take a good look
http://www.ps3blog.net/wp-content/uploads/skyrim-orc1.jpg

Why on earth would you ever assume a random person would get their ideas about Orcs from a specific video game? Also your spoiler is empty.

Beowulf DW
2012-04-02, 07:45 PM
Oh, that's easy. How many player characters out there are a member of an evil race that is intentionally playing against type to give themselves extra depth and dramatic internal conflict? Now take that ratio, and expand it to all adventurers.

What you have now is a massive community of inexplicably noble orcs wandering the lands with huge sacks full of cash, who can't help but spend their time around beautiful human women stoically brooding about this hideous outward visage they were cursed to bear.

Suddenly, half-orcs everywhere.

"They'd have little brooding babies in your honor."-Varric, Dragon Age 2

The brooding lone-wolf thing does seem to do wonders with the ladies.

Morph Bark
2012-04-03, 08:28 AM
Alcohol (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10745663). It does wonders. It gets ideas you don't even want to have. Try it now! Warning: not if you are below the age of 18 or 21, depending on your country.

t209
2012-04-03, 11:57 PM
Why on earth would you ever assume a random person would get their ideas about Orcs from a specific video game? Also your spoiler is empty.

i should said this earlier...
- i thought you are one of those people who never seen orcs looking like beast creatures (Blame it on modern videogames like warcraft and skyrim). thanks for your clarification.
p.s- i send you a screen shot but i think it glitched out but here you go.
http://preorderskyrim.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/skyrim-orc.jpg
See that, this is what they are doing it to Orcs now!

Lord Tyger
2012-04-04, 12:18 AM
But it's not a new innovation. Tolkien's Orcs, way back in the day, were corrupted elves- they were deformed from that, but it was deformation to a basically humanoid template, not a twisting of beasts into human form.

Marlowe
2012-04-04, 12:50 AM
I've got it! T209 is some kind of poorly-briefed infiltrator sent from another planet to undermine our society prior to invasion by his Tallest overlords!

He's chosen to do this by arguing about geek trivia on message boards as his analysis of data exchanges has shown him that this is Humanities most common activity, but a malfunctioning logic circuit and lack of a Terran cultural background has lead him to fubar all his cross-connections!

I'm on to you, INVADER T209!

Knaight
2012-04-04, 02:05 AM
In other words, like everything else in modern fantasy: Tolkien Plagiarism

You know, once you get past the entire urban fantasy subgenre (Jim Butcher), more historical fantasy (e.g. Guy Gavriel Kay), the new weird (China Mieville), YA fantasy (Tamora Pierce), minimal magic fantasy (George. R. R. Martin), modern fantasy (J. K. Rowling), the generally odd (Alan Dean Foster), and a whole bunch of other works. But of course, those genres and authors are all really obscure outliers - nobody has ever heard of J. K. Rowling.

Marlowe
2012-04-04, 02:15 AM
Not sure if I'd call Alan Dean Foster that modern--he's been writing hackish movie tie-in novels and haunting the discount bin since before disco died.

Knaight
2012-04-04, 02:20 AM
Not sure if I'd call Alan Dean Foster that modern--he's been writing hackish movie tie-in novels and haunting the discount bin since before disco died.

He's also been writing good works more recently, and it is the more recent novels that are relevant. The Journey of the Catechist can be called a lot of things, Tolkien ripoff isn't among them. That's also why Guy Gavriel Kay and George R. R. Martin are listed, despite the forming having actually worked on very Tolkien-style fantasy (and being connected to The Silimarillion) and the latter having once been a Hollywood writer.

Marlowe
2012-04-04, 02:24 AM
OK. I still don't think he'll ever live down being the writer that killed off Darth Vader. A year before Empire Strikes Back came out.

hamishspence
2012-04-04, 06:06 AM
Luke senses Vader's still alive in Splinter of the Minds Eye after he falls into the pit- Foster didn't actually kill him off.

Wings of Peace
2012-04-04, 06:12 AM
I always assumed either rape victims or tribal women who were awarded/wed to the strongest warriors. Not that the two are mutually exclusive.

t209
2012-04-04, 12:06 PM
But it's not a new innovation. Tolkien's Orcs, way back in the day, were corrupted elves- they were deformed from that, but it was deformation to a basically humanoid template, not a twisting of beasts into human form.

Thanks for clarification! I thought Tolkien Orc started off as ugly piglike creatures (or that was other fantasy).

Lord Tyger
2012-04-04, 01:34 PM
You know, once you get past the entire urban fantasy subgenre (Jim Butcher), more historical fantasy (e.g. Guy Gavriel Kay), the new weird (China Mieville), YA fantasy (Tamora Pierce), minimal magic fantasy (George. R. R. Martin), modern fantasy (J. K. Rowling), the generally odd (Alan Dean Foster), and a whole bunch of other works. But of course, those genres and authors are all really obscure outliers - nobody has ever heard of J. K. Rowling.

Plagiarism is definitely too strong a world, but there are plenty of Tolkien influences in all of those that I'm familiar with, from Butcher paying homage to Tolkien by naming him as a previous Summer Knight, to Mieville going out of his way to name the parts of Tolkien's influence that aren't generally discussed here (http://www.omnivoracious.com/2009/06/there-and-back-again-five-reasons-tolkien-rocks.html). And do the Tolkien/Martin parallels really need to be spelled out?

nedz
2012-04-04, 05:03 PM
But it's not a new innovation. Tolkien's Orcs, way back in the day, were corrupted elves- they were deformed from that, but it was deformation to a basically humanoid template, not a twisting of beasts into human form.
So, basically Tolkien's Orcs were an inherited template which could be applied to any Elf. Thus Half-Orcs are Half-Elves with this same template applied.:smallamused:

Thanks for clarification! I thought Tolkien Orc started off as ugly piglike creatures (or that was other fantasy).
AD&D 1E MM

Knaight
2012-04-04, 05:09 PM
Plagiarism is definitely too strong a world, but there are plenty of Tolkien influences in all of those that I'm familiar with, from Butcher paying homage to Tolkien by naming him as a previous Summer Knight, to Mieville going out of his way to name the parts of Tolkien's influence that aren't generally discussed here (http://www.omnivoracious.com/2009/06/there-and-back-again-five-reasons-tolkien-rocks.html). And do the Tolkien/Martin parallels really need to be spelled out?

Sure, there are Tolkien influences. However, his influences are no bigger on fantasy than that of major "literary" authors on "literary" fiction, and you aren't likely to hear "literary fiction is just a bunch of heming way ripoffs".

Then there is the matter of magical realism, which is essentially a sub genre of fantasy. Garcia Marquez has not been influenced by Tolkien much at all, and is probably one of the closest to Tolkien in that subgenre.

Vinyadan
2012-04-05, 03:18 PM
The Uruk-hai serving Saruman in The Lord of the Rings probably were hybrids of Humans and Orcs. There also were others who did not look so orcish - a man in Bree, for example, who acted as a spy for Saruman, but actually did not set off any alarm comparable to that of seeing a pure Orc.

But Tolkien's Orcs tend to be much smaller than D&D Orcs. Even the heavy-armored Uruk of Mordor were smaller than a Man, and the same for the Orc leader who speared Frodo in Moria.

I don't really know how such an idea could be born. There is the "this is D&D and all mates with everything" thing, but giving the Half-Orc such a status is bizarre.

hamishspence
2012-04-05, 03:39 PM
I think it worked something like this.

Uruk-Hai (Sauron) Orcs with a drop of human blood- a bit bigger, but still squat.

Uruk-Hai (Saruman) Orcs with slightly more human blood- still squat- but a bit straighter-legged than Mordor Uruk-hai.

Half-Orcs (Saruman)- look like Men mostly, but with "orcish faces". Compared to the guy at Bree by Pippin and Merry, who say these look "more obviously orcish".

The Guy At Bree- Man with a drop of orc blood- at least, that's what Aragorn thought, and (in Unfinished Tales) what his own people thought when they kicked him out of Dunland. While he was a spy for Saruman, the Ringwraiths found him, and coerced him into spying for Sauron instead, shortly before the Hobbits see him.

Vinyadan
2012-04-05, 03:49 PM
Uruk-Hai (Sauron) Orcs with a drop of human blood- a bit bigger, but still squat.


I agree with everything else you said, but I think that the Mordor Uruk-Hai were simple Orcs, only breed with the purpose of being front-line fighters. Something like artificial selection with dogs.
The Mordor Orcs were surely variegate - there also was that strange sniffing Orc who killed the bigger Orc.
But, unless this was stated somewhere by Tolkien, it is just my opinion.

hamishspence
2012-04-05, 04:05 PM
I've checked- apparently it was Morgoth's Ring, not Unfinished Tales, that has Saruman breeding "Orc-men large and cunning, and Men-orcs treacherous and vile"- it suggested he may have only rediscovered the secret.

The Uruk-hai first appear in 2475- over 500 years before LotR. Though these (Sauron's) which attack Osgiliath, while already visibly different from normal orcs, and (I think in the appendix to LoTR) having some resistance to sunlight, are not quite as different as Saruman's.

Premier
2012-04-05, 04:06 PM
I think it worked something like this.

Uruk-Hai (Sauron) Orcs with a drop of human blood- a bit bigger, but still squat.

Uruk-Hai (Saruman) Orcs with slightly more human blood- still squat- but a bit straighter-legged than Mordor Uruk-hai.

Half-Orcs (Saruman)- look like Men mostly, but with "orcish faces". Compared to the guy at Bree by Pippin and Merry, who say these look "more obviously orcish".

The Guy At Bree- Man with a drop of orc blood- at least, that's what Aragorn thought, and (in Unfinished Tales) what his own people thought when they kicked him out of Dunland. While he was a spy for Saruman, the Ringwraiths found him, and coerced him into spying for Sauron instead, shortly before the Hobbits see him.

I do wish people stopped giving "I think" and "I vaguely recall but won't double-check" histories and remarks on Tolkien material. (Not just here and now; in general all over the Internet. Not trying to single you out.)

As per the The Lord of the Rings appendices:

- Orcs. No human blood at all. IIRC the Silmarilion suggests that they might be corrupted elves, but doesn't say so explicitly with the authority of an omniscient narrator.

- Uruk. It's simple the Black Speech word for "orcs", not any sort of halfbreed or variant. In practice, it's typically used to describe the larger, stronger orcs. LotR is not clear on whether this would include large "standard stock" orcs along with the Uruk-hai.

- Snaga. "Slave" in the Black Speech, the word for weaker orcs. Basic stock, NOT a variant.

- Uruk-hai. Now this is a variant. A bigger, stronger version of orc that isn't afraid of sunlight and was created by Sauron. Nothing in LotR or Silmarilion suggests that they have any amount of human blood. Also, nothing in LotR suggests that Saruman had ever created his own version of Uruk-hai. He did have Uruk-hai, but these very well might have been given to him by Sauron, there's nothing in the timeline to prevent this.

- Half-orcs, "guy in Bree". Not stated explicitly in LotR, but Treebeard speculates that they're possibly orcs interbred with humans.

Now, that's LotR. Posthumously published Tolkien material might have elements that contradict this, but they're, well, posthumously published. It's all stuff Tolkien either didn't want to publish, never got around to actually writing out properly, or earlier versions of material that he later changed.

hamishspence
2012-04-05, 04:12 PM
- Uruk-hai. Now this is a variant.

"Hai" simply means "people"- "Uruk-hai" - "orc-people"

Treebeard speculates that "these orcs are more like wicked Men" and that Saruman may have "blended orcs and men" in LotR- but, as said, that's not "omniscient narrator".

This thread:

http://forums.revora.net/topic/81672-orcs-goblins-and-uruks-unite/

goes into the subject in some detail- quoting heavily from Morgoth's Ring among others.

Hyudra
2012-04-05, 04:48 PM
It ultimately depends on what version of orc you go with.

Honestly, though? If you assume that the range of appearances an orc could have might include something that falls in the realm of 'less attractive human', or vice versa (consider that orcs probably consider humans unattractive - barring the rare exception), I find it totally believable.

I'm also thinking of the aboriginal people with the colonists of the new world. Unlike a denizen of a fantasy setting, who might have encountered dwarves, elves, kenku, mongrelfolk, halflings, gnomes and more, the colonists likely had minimal to no experience with people of other races. Not to put too fine a point on it, but the aboriginals were seen as foreign, scary, oftentimes brutish and not conventionally attractive, to a larger extent than those of us today would assume.

But people still fell for them. There was mingling.

I could also see the orcs doing much as some aboriginal tribes did. When you have neighbors you can't afford to go to war with, but you still have a fierce tribal pride and you want to establish your superiority, you 'count coup'. Sometimes this is attacking or even making your presence known to an enemy and escaping unharmed. Other times, you might steal their horses, food, women and/or children through wit, strength, and raw cunning.

I can even imagine that smaller orc tribes might even incorporate something like this into their traditions. Fits their flavor & style, and it makes sense in terms of ensuring genetic diversity. A tribe's warrior, for example, would be forbidden to marry or mate within the tribe... instead, they would be expected to sneak into another orc tribe's camp and steal a woman for themselves. The better the warrior, the prettier/stronger/higher status the woman they're expected to take. The woman would naturally defend themselves as said warrior appeared in her hut/tent (she would shame her tribe if she didn't inflict at least a few wounds on her captor), and more desirable women (the daughters of the other tribe's chief, for example) would have more protection or protectors. After the captor brought his woman to camp, she would remain captive for a set duration before the marriage took place, giving her brothers and/or potential-husband-from-her-tribe a chance to win her back. Failure to take a wife (ie. getting your ass handed to you by your wife candidate or her protectors) would mean humiliation, a walk of shame back to one's tribe.

Now make this an established tradition dating all the way back to the oldest stories/history of the tribe, but account for a complication: the addition of an organized, bustling human settlement nearby has displaced the neighboring orc tribe. You need a wife, young warrior, and the other tribe has moved too far away for it to be feasible/sporting. What do you do? You go for the next best thing. The daughter of the human settlement's mayor, kicking the ass of the town guards to get to her, kicking their asses again as you drag her back out. It meets expectations of a sufficient coup, you prove your place as a warrior of the tribe, and you take an orc mistress/second wife on the side to sire you good fullbood orc babies that will satisfy Gruumsh (besides, this coup wife of yours didn't even have the sense to have a knife within reach of her bed, what kind of children would she give you? And her father was a rude fool who went to war with your tribe -or started sending adventurers to exterminate your people- for taking her, despite traditions. Disgusting.).

It's worth saying that such captives wouldn't necessarily be treated badly by the tribe, and in the case that children were taken, would likely be raised with the tribe's customs and beliefs until they came of age, and would naturally marry someone. Women (or hell, even men, if you want to be fair to both genders) that were taken might well grow fond of their captors, especially if it wound up being a sort of escape from an oppressive, dismal or bland life, into a colorful, passionate, sometimes violent tribal existence.

Vinyadan
2012-04-05, 05:05 PM
There's always the classic version:

We're a bunch of travelers in the Orchish lands. We trade, we make war, whatever. We are human beings and have our needs. Orcs aren't pretty, but they are flesh. We crave flesh. At first it may be ugly, but if you keep your nose closed, you will get used to it. After all, it is an experience, and better to make it with them, than start burning and ending up doing stupid stuff. Also, as said, we are merchants and warriors, not friars. Anyway, may I introduce you my extra-marital daughter, Dugdur?

Beowulf DW
2012-04-06, 12:47 PM
There's always the classic version:

We're a bunch of travelers in the Orchish lands. We trade, we make war, whatever. We are human beings and have our needs. Orcs aren't pretty, but they are flesh. We crave flesh. At first it may be ugly, but if you keep your nose closed, you will get used to it. After all, it is an experience, and better to make it with them, than start burning and ending up doing stupid stuff. Also, as said, we are merchants and warriors, not friars. Anyway, may I introduce you my extra-marital daughter, Dugdur?

I forget exactly who, but it was someone on these forums who said something along the line of:

Human man sees an orc woman as "masculine" and kind of ugly.
Orc man sees human woman as scrawny and weak.
Niether is getting their first choice, but either one is better than going to bed alone.