Theurge question

[big teej]

greetings playgrounders,

I've a question on multi-classing, specifically for Theurges.


in your opinion, which is better?

to go 3 and 3? or to take alternating levels until you qualify?

to elaborate if this is unclear

lets say you're going into Cerebremancer, is it better to take 3 levels of Wizard, followed by 3 levels of Psion? (i.e. wizard/wizard/wizard/psion/psion/psion)
or

is it better to take your levels in the following pattern
(wizard/psion/wizard/psion/wizard/psion)


please explain your reasoning :smallbiggrin:

[Shadowknight12]

The typical answer you'll get is "you don't take 3/3, you use early-entry tricks to avoid sucking for 6 whole levels."

Personally, I go full wizard for about 6-7 levels, and then take a single Shadowcaster level and use the Darkness rule to trade wizard levels for Shadowcaster until I qualify for Noctumancer, then I cap it off with Mystic Theurge.

EDIT: I suppose I didn't answer your question with the parameters given. I'd go Wizard 3 first, because Wizard is a higher tier than Psion, and you need all the power you can get if you're going to be unable to advance for 3 whole levels. Alternating Wizard/Psion just keeps you always a step behind the encounters your DM throws at you.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I'd say 3 then 3. Why? Because a few 2nd level spells/powers is not as strong as a bunch of 1st level spells/powers. By the time you reach your Theurgecy, you'll be at 2/2 and a minimum 7th level. Better than slowly achieving 2nd level whatevers than grabbing one than the other.

EDIT: Query: Is there a PrC that gives full 9th powers in 10 levels? Official or any homebrew?

[big teej]

The typical answer you'll get is "you don't take 3/3, you use early-entry tricks to avoid sucking for 6 whole levels."

Personally, I go full wizard for about 6-7 levels, and then take a single Shadowcaster level and use the Darkness rule to trade wizard levels for Shadowcaster until I qualify for Noctumancer, then I cap it off with Mystic Theurge.

actually the typical answer is along the lines of "don't play a theurge"

which is why I specified the two options I'm picking from.

anything outside of them (or at least, something similar) isn't exactly helpful

[Shadowknight12]

actually the typical answer is along the lines of "don't play a theurge"

which is why I specified the two options I'm picking from.

anything outside of them (or at least, something similar) isn't exactly helpful

Ah, you missed my Edit.


EDIT: I suppose I didn't answer your question with the parameters given. I'd go Wizard 3 first, because Wizard is a higher tier than Psion, and you need all the power you can get if you're going to be unable to advance for 3 whole levels. Alternating Wizard/Psion just keeps you always a step behind the encounters your DM throws at you.

[big teej]

Ah, you missed my Edit.

indeed I did, my apologies.

[ahenobarbi]

Well if you want to go theurge without early entry than take 3 levels in "stronger" class then 3 levels in "weaker" class. This way you are not behind for first 3 levels on fourth you are little behind, 5th&6th are easier.

So what Shadowknight wrote.

[big teej]

Well if you want to go theurge without early entry than take 3 levels in "stronger" class then 3 levels in "weaker" class. This way you are not behind for first 3 levels on fourth you are little behind, 5th&6th are easier.

So what Shadowknight wrote.

sounds like a good enough plan to me.

early entry shouldn't be needed, I'm the only I'm one of two people in the group who really know what they're doing, mechanically speaking. so taking 'weaker' options isn't going to handicap me very much.

example: I completely wrecked his 'mini-boss' fight with a single Command spell. (the miniboss was compelled to approach my character through a line of melee focused characters... it didn't survive the AoOs)

[Bard for Kicks]

I have no idea why anyone would ever take mystic theurge. it sucks. d4, one good save, crappy skills, and NO class features. Just don't do it.

[Godskook]

Oddly, unlike in mathematics, the shortest distance to power with theurges is not the 'straight' line(even movement in all relevant directions), but the 'jagged'(aiming for your next goals one at a time). For instance, there's nothing 'new' about a 2nd level caster/manifester that makes them uniquely better than 1st level practitioners. Hence, going X 2/Y 2 is always going to be only the most minor of improvements over X 1/Y 1. Whereas, X 3(or in some cases X 4) is drastically stronger.

There's at least some argument for going X 1/Y 1/X +2/Y +2, if you can leverage the class features right. For instance, Druid 1/Wizard 1/Druid +2 works ok on a Arcane Heirophant build, cause getting Abrupt Jaunt up early is really handy for survival.

[big teej]

I have no idea why anyone would ever take mystic theurge. it sucks. d4, one good save, crappy skills, and NO class features. Just don't do it.

I was wondering how long it'd take to get that answer.

[Particle_Man]

I have no idea why anyone would ever take mystic theurge. it sucks. d4, one good save, crappy skills, and NO class features.

That's actually a good reason to take it. Wizards and Clerics are Tier 1 and can easily overpower the rest of the party. By taking MT, you reduce the power of the caster somewhat compared to lower tier classes. I think it is a very responsible and altruistic choice and shows that the OP cares about not overshadowing the other players.

[Caylus]

sounds like a good enough plan to me.

early entry shouldn't be needed, I'm the only I'm one of two people in the group who really know what they're doing, mechanically speaking. so taking 'weaker' options isn't going to handicap me very much.

example: I completely wrecked his 'mini-boss' fight with a single Command spell. (the miniboss was compelled to approach my character through a line of melee focused characters... it didn't survive the AoOs)

If you're one of the two persons that really know what you're doing, I would go a wiz/psi/wiz/wiz/psi/psi route. You'll suck, I realize that, but you kind of improve steadily instead of abrupt for the first three levels, and slow for the last three levels. This build gives you a lot of weak spells, which in my opinion would be the most fun for you and your party.

The rest of my post will be offtopic.


I was wondering how long it'd take to get that answer.

It's a shame huh? I think I can build a spambot that produces exactly that kind of unhelpful and unoriginal answers.

[Particle_Man]

Another thought - are you roleplaying that that character always was knowingly going to be an MT, or are you roleplaying that the character was going to be one class and had some kind of epiphany and switched to another class for a while? Because maybe that could help make the decision for you.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Honestly, if I had to go for a 3/3 split, I'd go Wizard 3/Whatever 3 into my Theurge simply because of ACF goodies as Godskook mentioned.

Obviously, the "best" option is going Wizard 1 with Focused Specialist and Precious Apprentice/Whatever X. For Cerbremancers, you can also go Wizard 3, grabbing Practiced Manifestor (Ardent)/Ardent 1, because Ardents are silly like that. You could make the case to take 2 levels of Ardent for more powers known, however.

[MukkTB]

Early entry or drop the concept.

[Grendus]

EDIT: Query: Is there a PrC that gives full 9th powers in 10 levels? Official or any homebrew?

There are a few. Ur-Priest is one of the most powerful, followed by Sublime Chord. Nar Demonbinder gets 8ths which isn't too shabby, and there's another PrC who's name slips my mind that gets 9ths but only in one domain (Divine Crusader?). That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

[eggs]

Also Apostle of Peace, Beholder Mage and Blighter, but they're generally less applicable.

[big teej]

If you're one of the two persons that really know what you're doing, I would go a wiz/psi/wiz/wiz/psi/psi route. You'll suck, I realize that, but you kind of improve steadily instead of abrupt for the first three levels, and slow for the last three levels. This build gives you a lot of weak spells, which in my opinion would be the most fun for you and your party.



that is an excellent point.





It's a shame huh? I think I can build a spambot that produces exactly that kind of unhelpful and unoriginal answers.

this sir, is hysterical.


Another thought - are you roleplaying that that character always was knowingly going to be an MT, or are you roleplaying that the character was going to be one class and had some kind of epiphany and switched to another class for a while? Because maybe that could help make the decision for you.

it started out as a straight cleric (I was initially just sitting in on the group as a rules consultant, and the potentional to bring in a character capable of increasing the party's survivability)

but then I helped a player for my game make a psion and it rekindled my interest in playing one (having never had the opportunity)

so, provided the DM okays it all, I'm intending to roleplay it as discovering the character's psychic potential. given the nature of his diety, nascent psychic powers would fit rather well. the character worships a personified cause* of the Dream and Pact domains. which I have dubbed, until I come up with something better, "the thing that dwells beyond the veil"

*personified cause: I hate the idea of clerics of a cause, I also hate how few combinations of domains are available, so in lieu of picking an actual diety, people are allowed to pick 2 domains and then construct a diety around them for me.... at least until I get around to finishing my pantheon /off topic tangent


to answer your question more directly, no - but helping a player make a psion makes me want to play one.



Early entry or drop the concept.

hey look, another one.

[Particle_Man]

Well, since the point of this is that you want to play a psion, go psion 3 first and rock out your psion stuff for a while. Then go cleric 3 as in-game you discover "something" out there, then the prestige class to mix the two. Just my two cents.

[big teej]

Well, since the point of this is that you want to play a psion, go psion 3 first and rock out your psion stuff for a while. Then go cleric 3 as in-game you discover "something" out there, then the prestige class to mix the two. Just my two cents.

would if I could, unforunately he's already seen an entire session as a Cleric.
so I've gotta go more along the lines of "while communing with my lord...."

[Grendus]

would if I could, unforunately he's already seen an entire session as a Cleric.
so I've gotta go more along the lines of "while communing with my lord...."

Go Ardent, drop a feat on Practiced Manifester, and go into a Psychic Theurge class at level 4. Early entry.

[Soulean]

Trying to play a low level dual caster is a tough road when starting from low levels. Tried it once at lvl 5 and wow was it terrible. Not sure what level you are going to reach but if you do go Cerebremancer one other thing to consider is what would you do once you finish that class? Granted level 17 is far away but never hurts to think ahead. ( Wizard progression would be the strongest and you could get 9th level spells at 20 if it's a long campaign. )

To answer your question fill a class before starting a new one imo. 2nd level spells/powers should be reasonably effective at 6 but be prepared to run out of them FAST.

[mikau013]

You're a better person than I am, I always want to take Theurges (and downgrade myself by doing that a little) but I can never stand the 3 levels of no progress and fearing the campaign will end / my char will die before I can even take the theurge levels.

But I guess that isn't really helpful, so instead I'll say this:
Keep in mind that with practiced manifester you can boost your manifester level a little to still do level appropriate things

[Grendus]

If your DM is the reasonable sort, you could homebrew a theurge type that only requires one level of each and loses the caster levels later in life. Being three levels behind in the teens isn't so bad, at level 6 it's fatal.

[Rejusu]

greetings playgrounders,

I've a question on multi-classing, specifically for Theurges.


in your opinion, which is better?

to go 3 and 3? or to take alternating levels until you qualify?

to elaborate if this is unclear

lets say you're going into Cerebremancer, is it better to take 3 levels of Wizard, followed by 3 levels of Psion? (i.e. wizard/wizard/wizard/psion/psion/psion)
or

is it better to take your levels in the following pattern
(wizard/psion/wizard/psion/wizard/psion)


please explain your reasoning :smallbiggrin:

Take Wizard 1, Psion 3 and then you can go straight into Cerebremancer at level 5. Precocious Apprentice at level 1 gives you a second level spell which you can use to qualify for Cerebremancer. If you're not too worried about optimisation then taking the "weaker" (comparitively) Psion up a few levels over the Wizard will be fine. But really you don't want to do a 3/3 build. I mean already being a Theurge is enough to bring your power level down a fair bit. No need to aggravate things by not doing early entry.

Also I'm confused, you said in your original post you wanted to go Cerebremancer but now you're saying you're playing a Cleric? Are you changing character or going Psychic Theurge (which is kind of a different thing). If you are then you probably don't want to go Psion as it'll make you MAD. Go for either Ardent/Psychic Warrior (good if you want to gish it up) as those have WIS as their primary manifesting stat or Wilder which has CHA synergy for your turning.

[KillianHawkeye]

EDIT: Query: Is there a PrC that gives full 9th powers in 10 levels? Official or any homebrew?

There are a few. Ur-Priest is one of the most powerful, followed by Sublime Chord. Nar Demonbinder gets 8ths which isn't too shabby, and there's another PrC who's name slips my mind that gets 9ths but only in one domain (Divine Crusader?). That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Those are all spellcasting classes. None of those provide 9th level psionic powers. :smallconfused:

[Particle_Man]

would if I could, unforunately he's already seen an entire session as a Cleric.
so I've gotta go more along the lines of "while communing with my lord...."

Well in that case, go cleric 1/psion 3/cleric 2/prestige class 10. If you want to play a psion, play one as soon as possible. So what if it is a little low-powered at first? You've been around, you know the system, you can play a bit low-powered by playing smarter. Presumably your DM will play ball a bit too.

[erikun]

lets say you're going into Cerebremancer, is it better to take 3 levels of Wizard, followed by 3 levels of Psion? (i.e. wizard/wizard/wizard/psion/psion/psion)
or

is it better to take your levels in the following pattern
(wizard/psion/wizard/psion/wizard/psion)

please explain your reasoning :smallbiggrin:
I would recommend Psion 3 first, assuming you take the Practiced Manifester feat. Then, while taking the three levels in wizard, you can still increase the PP usage for your Psion powers. This isn't as good as having actual 3rd-level Psion powers, both due to lower PP and still keeping your 2nd-level powers, but at least the Psion can still perform a few times at an effective "full" level.

Otherwise, you might be better with Psion 1/Wizard 3/Psion 2. The reasoning Godskook gave will pretty much be repeated here: Wizard 1/Psion 1 has roughly twice the abilities of a Wizard 2 or Psion 2, and those extra options can give you something to fall back on when you're out of the higher class level options. I state Wizard 3 in the middle, because psionics tend to be better at being spend 1 PP at a time.


Another option is Ardent 1/Cleric 3/Ardent 1/Psychic Theurge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b), if you are fine with the Practiced Manifester-Ardent interpretation and want a bit early entry. Clerics and Ardents tend to be better at buffing against the low HP and BAB, as well.

[big teej]

Also I'm confused, you said in your original post you wanted to go Cerebremancer but now you're saying you're playing a Cleric?.

it was just an example of what I was talking about. I'm playing a cleric and I'm debating multiclassing into Psion



Well in that case, go cleric 1/psion 3/cleric 2/prestige class 10. If you want to play a psion, play one as soon as possible. So what if it is a little low-powered at first? You've been around, you know the system, you can play a bit low-powered by playing smarter. Presumably your DM will play ball a bit too.

I approve of this logic. I think this is what I'll probably go with.



most shocking statement ever

it's a 3.0 Psion, except for the power points, which are 3.5
and this was my idea :smallbiggrin:
that's right, I like 3.0 psions more!
:nale:

[Particle_Man]

My mind, she is blown! :smallsmile:

[Caylus]

it's a 3.0 Psion, except for the power points, which are 3.5
and this was my idea :smallbiggrin:
that's right, I like 3.0 psions more!
:nale:


3.5 or drop the concept.
Yay! I can do it too! Am I not a big boy now?