Pathfinder - How would you optimize a Mystic Theurge?

[Vemynal]

Hey everyone, pretty much as it says on the tin; using only pathfinder materials how would you optimize a mystic theurge character?

for example the whole "duel stats" issue of Int and Wis being important to a wizard/cleric

You also don't have available the ability to abuse Urpriest's accelerated spell levels


What would you do to optimize a mystic theurge?

[KutuluKultist]

To be honest, I don't think that this is feasible without the practiced spellcaster feat, which is absent from PF. There is literally nothing to complement that class.

[Jack Zander]

Yeah, honestly, you can't. The designers did a pretty good job making it optimization proof.

[Soulean]

Super basic non cheese early entry. Druid 3/Wizard 3/Arcane Hierophant 10/ Mystic Thurge 4.

At 20 9th level wizard/druid spells and wildshape of a 13th level druid. ( wildshape based on pathfinder version of AH. )

Some early entry cheese does exist but it involves a feat from dragon magazine that lets a dual caster use his/her spells as either arcane or divine. So you can cast a 2nd level divine spell from your wizard spells. Personally I wouldn't let that fly if I was DM but I have no idea what level of power your group plays at.

If you have your heart set of cleric/wizard you could get trackless step from bamboo spirit folk race from OA or take a single level of wildrunner can get you in. Wildrunner takes a caster level loss but you are less likely to get an evil glare from the DM over it.

Also don't forget Practiced Spellcaster feat to boost your caster level back to your HD. You'll need to take it twice, once for each class.

At low levels you will be very underpowered. Unless you plan to take this char well past level 10 you may not want to play this kind of character at all.

[Vemynal]

^- And there is our mandatory 3.5 advice person lol. One in every PF thread xD

ok...damn. I'm a little sad that Mystic Theurge just can't be done. I've almost finished my complete read of the entire PF SRD and I was gonna say that I didn't see anything =(

[RndmNumGen]

Super basic non cheese early entry. Druid 3/Wizard 3/Arcane Hierophant 10/ Mystic Thurge 4.

At 20 9th level wizard/druid spells and wildshape of a 13th level druid. ( wildshape based on pathfinder version of AH. )

Some early entry cheese does exist but it involves a feat from dragon magazine that lets a dual caster use his/her spells as either arcane or divine. So you can cast a 2nd level divine spell from your wizard spells. Personally I wouldn't let that fly if I was DM but I have no idea what level of power your group plays at.

If you have your heart set of cleric/wizard you could get trackless step from bamboo spirit folk race from OA or take a single level of wildrunner can get you in. Wildrunner takes a caster level loss but you are less likely to get an evil glare from the DM over it.

Also don't forget Practiced Spellcaster feat to boost your caster level back to your HD. You'll need to take it twice, once for each class.

At low levels you will be very underpowered. Unless you plan to take this char well past level 10 you may not want to play this kind of character at all.
Great, but that's for 3.5 - the OP specified Pathfinder.

As far as PF, the designers have ruled out Magical Lineage -> Heighten from allowing early entry, so you're stuck with Wizard 3/Cleric or Druid 3(Unless you want to use Sorcerer or Oracle, which causes you to lose another level, so generally a bad idea there). The Magical Knack trait can help with giving you a +2 to caster level for each, but you're still down 1 spell level and 1 caster level, which hurts bad.

[Jack Zander]

^- And there is our mandatory 3.5 advice person lol. One in every PF thread xD

ok...damn. I'm a little sad that Mystic Theurge just can't be done. I've almost finished my complete read of the entire PF SRD and I was gonna say that I didn't see anything =(

I keep getting so disappointed when I can't "like" people's posts.

[CTrees]

Yeah... you can't. Which is why you don't play a mystic theurge in PF. Sorry.

[Coidzor]

Super basic non cheese early entry. Druid 3/Wizard 3/Arcane Hierophant 10/ Mystic Thurge 4.

Problem with that is the PF-only request.


Hey everyone, pretty much as it says on the tin; using only pathfinder materials how would you optimize a mystic theurge character?

IIRC, the system makes pursuing that concept utter horse pucky without salvaging it with 3.X material.

[mikau013]

Great, but that's for 3.5 - the OP specified Pathfinder.

As far as PF, the designers have ruled out Magical Lineage -> Heighten from allowing early entry, so you're stuck with Wizard 3/Cleric or Druid 3(Unless you want to use Sorcerer or Oracle, which causes you to lose another level, so generally a bad idea there). The Magical Knack trait can help with giving you a +2 to caster level for each, but you're still down 1 spell level and 1 caster level, which hurts bad.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I believe you could only apply magical knack to one class only? Because of the fact you can't use the same type of trait?

And on the general topic, you optimze a Mystic Theurge the same way you do a wizard, good casting score, picking the good spells, good items etc.
Though I'd advise to pick a dominant side, and focus on that side more, grab more non save reliant spells for the other side. You'll be behind on both but if the rest of the party is playing crappy classes it won't matter that much once you get past the low levels.

[grarrrg]

for example the whole "duel stats" issue of Int and Wis being important to a wizard/cleric
....
What would you do to optimize a mystic theurge?

Well, as sub-optimal as Sorcerer normally is/was in this situation, I would actually recommend it for PF Mystic Theurge BUT only if you take the Celestial > Empyreal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/empyreal) Bloodline so you can use WIS instead of CHA for your Sorcerer spells.

When/If Pathfinder has early entry tricks and/or another Dual-Casting PrC then Wizard will probably be the better choice.

[Particle_Man]

Well if you are very patient and don't mind losing some of the MT class abilities (I think you keep the last one though and the dual progression) you could go sorcerer/oracle to have SAD (cha all the way!). Downside being, late entry so that at 18th you would be 14th/14th and 2 full spell levels behind the 18th cleric or wizard.

[Blisstake]

When/If Pathfinder has early entry tricks and/or another Dual-Casting PrC then Wizard will probably be the better choice.

I think the PF design team is really against allowing early entry for prestige classes, especially when they're built around being obtained at a certain level. So I wouldn't really expect any loop holes to get around it in the future. Honestly, I don't blame them for it, considering all the early-entry PrC cheese that annoyed me in 3.5, but it does limit your options for the theurge.

My advice is build a wizard/cleric or wizard/druid (depending on which spell list you like more... witch doesn't really add much), but concentrate on preparing spells that don't depend much on CL or DCs. Spells like the Walls, Summoning, Buffing, that kind of thing. You can be surprisingly effective with just those, even if you can't bring out the heavy hitting abilities with as much effectiveness.

Not really as effective as a straight wizard, but then again, nothing really is. I think it's a fun build to toy around with, at any rate.

[Coidzor]

Honestly, I don't blame them for it, considering all the early-entry PrC cheese that annoyed me in 3.5, but it does limit your options for the theurge.

Huh. You probably should.

I know I blame them for not changing the class so that it wouldn't require early entry cheese to be viable.

I blame them for not providing either a second theurge class or making Mystic Theurge longer so that one could finish to 20 as a theurge rather than having to abandon it 4-2 levels before 20.

[Curious]

I believe that there is one possible manner of early entry in Pathfinder already; Magical Lineage plus Heightened Spell. Only works for a single class, but it allows you to enter the class with less overall loss of caster levels.

[KutuluKultist]

The Magical Knack trait can help with giving you a +2 to caster level for each, but you're still down 1 spell level and 1 caster level, which hurts bad.

If only, you can only take it once, I'm afraid.

[Acanous]

If you go Sorc, you're missing out on 9th level Arcane. Wiz/Cler or Wiz/Druid both cap at 9ths, but suck *Bad* in low levels, and the suck is only moderately lessened in the mid levels.
Effectively speaking, you're going to be level 16 and casting 7th level Arcane/Divine. That's when you stop sucking.
Does Pathfinder have another "Theurge" class to make up the last 4 levels to get you dual 9ths? Or are you going to be stuck only gnabbing 9 on one side?

[CTrees]

I believe that there is one possible manner of early entry in Pathfinder already; Magical Lineage plus Heightened Spell. Only works for a single class, but it allows you to enter the class with less overall loss of caster levels.

Due to odd wording, ML treats the ACTUAL spell level as one lower. This allows things like the magus shocking grasp taser cantrip, but definitely rules out using it for early entry to MT. For example, Magical Lineage Magic Missile is treated as ACTUALLY BEING a cantrip. Heighten+1 makes it effectively first level, cast in a first level slot, not a second level spell cast in a first level slot (which you need).

[grarrrg]

If you go Sorc, you're missing out on 9th level Arcane. Wiz/Cler or Wiz/Druid both cap at 9ths, but suck *Bad* in low levels, and the suck is only moderately lessened in the mid levels.
Effectively speaking, you're going to be level 16 and casting 7th level Arcane/Divine. That's when you stop sucking.
Does Pathfinder have another "Theurge" class to make up the last 4 levels to get you dual 9ths? Or are you going to be stuck only gnabbing 9 on one side?

My reasoning is that by taking Mystic Theurge at all you are going to suck (or at least be fairly unoptimized).
Going Wis-Sorc at least lessens some of the pain by reducing MAD.



I think the PF design team is really against allowing early entry for prestige classes, especially when they're built around being obtained at a certain level. So I wouldn't really expect any loop holes to get around it in the future. Honestly, I don't blame them for it, considering all the early-entry PrC cheese that annoyed me in 3.5, but it does limit your options for the theurge.

They may not intend for early-entry cheese. But the bigger the game gets the more likely it is too happen that "something" will allow early entry.
Players like finding loopholes after all.

[Suddo]

I'm confused what's so un-optimized about Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 10? Yes you lose 3 caster level (more in another) but dual casting at 10 seems stupid overpowered. And its not like they didn't buff Wizards and Clerics in Pathfinder.

Edit: Sorry I forgot that Pathfinder is the stupidest system ever and doesn't give you more spells to your spellbook as a wizard.

[Jack Zander]

I'm confused what's so un-optimized about Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 10? Yes you lose 3 caster level (more in another) but dual casting at 10 seems stupid overpowered. And its not like they didn't buff Wizards and Clerics in Pathfinder.

Edit: Sorry I forgot that Pathfinder is the stupidest system ever and doesn't give you more spells to your spellbook as a wizard.

Because the CR system assumes that you have a certain spell level available at a certain character level. Mummies have their CR set so that by the time the party faces them, they should have access to both remove curse and remove disease. A party with a MT most likely does not have any other spellcasters in the assumption that the player can take care of all of the party's magical needs. However, this leads to the problem of not having certain spells to counter abilities of monsters or NPCs.

And then there is the party that DOES contain both a MT and a cleric or wizard, or even all three. The MT player will often be outshined by the other party members and feel less and less useful as the big boys cast their encounter-ending spells while the MT is constantly playing catch up.

1 spell level doesn't sound like a big deal, but its the difference between Grease and Web, between Levitate and Fly, between Water Walk and Air Walk, between Solid Fog and Cloudkill. You get the idea.

[Strormer]

Well, as sub-optimal as Sorcerer normally is/was in this situation, I would actually recommend it for PF Mystic Theurge BUT only if you take the Celestial > Empyreal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/empyreal) Bloodline so you can use WIS instead of CHA for your Sorcerer spells.

When/If Pathfinder has early entry tricks and/or another Dual-Casting PrC then Wizard will probably be the better choice.

I second this. If you can base them both off Wis then you're about as op as PF allows MT to be. Still noticeably below op, but at least as SAD as you can get.

[CTrees]

Edit: Sorry I forgot that Pathfinder is the stupidest system ever and doesn't give you more spells to your spellbook as a wizard.

You can still learn new spells from scrolls/spellbooks. It's only two free spells per level you're losing anyway, which isn't a huge cost (especially since, as a wizard, I assume a chunk of WBL is going to filling/arming my spellbook anyway). However, if you're in a funky, low-magic campaign setting, this could hurt more (in which case, play a HUMAN sorceror).

[Ravens_cry]

Magical Knack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-knack) trait will help a bit by getting your caster level closer to par for one side.
Also, Human Sorcerer with the Empyreal bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/empyreal) for your arcane side will help avoid MAD.
You are still hindered by your lower level spells, but this will help a bit at least.

[navar100]

Metagame attitude.

Not being able to cast 9th level spells by level 20 does not make you The Suck Why Do You Exist.

Not being able to cast one spell total to win the encounter does not make you The Suck Why Do You Exist.

Spells lower than level X > 2 where X equals whatever is considered the sweet spot to say now you are a Spellcaster Suffer My POWR! are not The Suck Why Do You Exist.

It is advisable not to rely on damage dealing spells. Since their damage scales with caster level being 3 behind is significant. For combat tactics, you're probably stronger in the support role as opposed to directly attacking the enemy. The support role is not The Suck Why Do You Exist. I know from experience casting a simple spell like Bless can give your party the combat. Be imaginative with Silent Image. An occasional direct attack like Hold Person is fine from time to time, but a warrior party member will appreciate a Bull's Strength.

[Coidzor]

Not being able to cast 9th level spells by level 20 does not make you The Suck Why Do You Exist.

Not being able to cast one spell total to win the encounter does not make you The Suck Why Do You Exist.

Yes, those are totally the end-all, be-all of reasons to object to the way the Mystic Theurge was made. :smallsigh:

[Crasical]

Why do so many people always come to pathfinder threads to air their grievances against the system? I personally dislike GURPS, but I don't go to Gurps threads and tell everyone that the system is broken, that the Devs are jerks, and the game itself is stupid. :smallfrown:

At this rate PF is going to get split off into it's own subforum like 4e did. 3.5 gamers don't play nice with anyone...

[Coidzor]

Why do so many people always come to pathfinder threads to air their grievances against the system? I personally dislike GURPS, but I don't go to Gurps threads and tell everyone that the system is broken, that the Devs are jerks, and the game itself is stupid. :smallfrown:

At this rate PF is going to get split off into it's own subforum like 4e did. 3.5 gamers don't play nice with anyone...

Why not offer a way it can be optimized then if you think saying that there's not much that can be done with it is just spewing hatred? :smallconfused:

[Strormer]

3.5 gamers don't play nice with anyone...

LOL

Especially each other, if you play in some of the groups I have.

[Benly]

Metagame attitude.

Not being able to cast 9th level spells by level 20 does not make you The Suck Why Do You Exist.

Not being able to cast one spell total to win the encounter does not make you The Suck Why Do You Exist.

Spells lower than level X > 2 where X equals whatever is considered the sweet spot to say now you are a Spellcaster Suffer My POWR! are not The Suck Why Do You Exist.

I know people who have said this, but generally it was before actually trying a theurge who wasn't at a "sweet spot" level. I gave it a shot or two myself. Playing at level 7 with nothing going for you except second-level spells really dampens the enthusiasm and is not much fun, even if you choose really good second-level spells.

[Crasical]

Why not offer a way it can be optimized then if you think saying that there's not much that can be done with it is just spewing hatred? :smallconfused:

I don't think that saying that something can't be optimized is spewing hate. It's like citing the tier system, sometimes unfortunate in it's truth but not malicious.

What I'm saying is that I see a lot more complaints in pathfinder threads, and more bitterness directed at the Devs rather than the product. It's the difference between "Fighter is underpowered" and "Fighter is still underpowered, good job PF Devs :smallmad:".

[Suddo]

Because the CR system assumes that you have a certain spell level available at a certain character level. Mummies have their CR set so that by the time the party faces them, they should have access to both remove curse and remove disease. A party with a MT most likely does not have any other spellcasters in the assumption that the player can take care of all of the party's magical needs. However, this leads to the problem of not having certain spells to counter abilities of monsters or NPCs.

And then there is the party that DOES contain both a MT and a cleric or wizard, or even all three. The MT player will often be outshined by the other party members and feel less and less useful as the big boys cast their encounter-ending spells while the MT is constantly playing catch up.

1 spell level doesn't sound like a big deal, but its the difference between Grease and Web, between Levitate and Fly, between Water Walk and Air Walk, between Solid Fog and Cloudkill. You get the idea.

See this idea I hate because I hate full casters. Every time I build a group (I do it for 3.5 but the concept is the same) I don't include things like Wizards. For example I just built a team: Duskblade, Psychic Rogue, Shadowcaster and Bard. This team technically falls behind the CR curve if the CR curve is based on you having a Wizard/Cleric in your party. Which is more of a grip against the CR system in general then PF.

Oh and I just looked it up and the no spells for Wizard isn't that bad, I saw its only 1 hour per spell level which is do-able (compared to the 1 day no matter what from 3.5). Good to see they fixed that.

[navar100]

Yes, those are totally the end-all, be-all of reasons to object to the way the Mystic Theurge was made. :smallsigh:

What you think is satire I say is truth. You don't need to be Voldemort to play a fun and effective spellcaster. The points I made stand.

[Coidzor]

What you think is satire I say is truth. You don't need to be Voldemort to play a fun and effective spellcaster. The points I made stand.

Actually I just think you were strawmanning.


What I'm saying is that I see a lot more complaints in pathfinder threads, and more bitterness directed at the Devs rather than the product. It's the difference between "Fighter is underpowered" and "Fighter is still underpowered, good job PF Devs :smallmad:".

Part of the burden of working under a legacy of what's been fundamentally the same system for over a decade.

It's been known for a long time that Theurges have problems that need rectifying, therefore, not rectifying them and deliberately adopting a design philosophy to prevent people from doing the kinds of work-arounds that naturally cropped up in the predecessor system is going to get called out. :/

[Jack Zander]

What you think is satire I say is truth. You don't need to be Voldemort to play a fun and effective spellcaster. The points I made stand.

People have fun being things that aren't overpowered? Preposterous!

[navar100]

I know people who have said this, but generally it was before actually trying a theurge who wasn't at a "sweet spot" level. I gave it a shot or two myself. Playing at level 7 with nothing going for you except second-level spells really dampens the enthusiasm and is not much fun, even if you choose really good second-level spells.

That's where it becomes a matter of taste. In all likelihood you are not playing a character who gets the kill. You are playing a character who helps someone else get it in a spectacular way, the support role. If colloquial you are not comfortable with that, and that's ok, then Mystic Theurge is not for you.

In a BBEG combat where it's time to go nova, a Mystic Theurge character can:

Round 1: Cast Invisibility on self for defense.
Round 2: Cast Bless to help the party.
Round 3: Cast Bull Strength on Paladin, Fighter, or Barbarian
Round 4: Cast Silent Image for a "wall of stone" to block off some mooks
Round 5: Maintain concentration on Silent Image
Round 6: With Silent Image no longer necessary or effective, cast Hold Person on one of the remaining bad guys. Combat is almost over. Invisibility no longer necessary.

Certainly a single class spellcaster could do lots of other things. They'll be flashier, more direct, might even end the combat a round or two earlier but no guarantee since bad guys do make their saving throws from time to time. That is not the style of Mystic Theurge at least until he gets double 4th level spells perhaps. If you don't care for that spellcaster play style, Mystic Theurge is not for you.

[grarrrg]

People have fun being things that aren't overpowered? Preposterous!

Roses are red.
Sarcasm is blue.
It helps people to know
If your just joking or ru....de
NINJA TEXT!

But seriously, can we get back on topic?

The Wis-Sorc is a solid idea, as it let's you focus on increasing 1 stat for your bonus slots and, more importantly, boosting your Save DC's.
Your DC's will still be lower than a 'single' caster, but they can still be reasonable.

[Jack Zander]

Roses are red.
Sarcasm is blue.
It helps people to know
If your just joking or ru....de
NINJA TEXT!

Maybe that's why I didn't blue-text :smallwink:

[Novawurmson]

Compared with a straight progression full caster, the theurge is always going to be the unoptimized route. This is a truth that has been with us since 3.0.

Compared with a straight progression Fighter, even a Theurge will eventually become a God, albiet more slowly. This is a truth that has been with us since 3.0.

To their fault, the Pathfinder devs did not fix either, though in fairness, if they had seriously tried, we would be arguing about whatever else they had changed. I love their interpretation of 3.5, but I understand its faults.

I think the best option is to only use the theurge in low optimization environments where a full caster would quickly overshadow others in the party. It can be optimized, but it is not optimal.

[Blisstake]

Huh. You probably should.

I know I blame them for not changing the class so that it wouldn't require early entry cheese to be viable.

I blame them for not providing either a second theurge class or making Mystic Theurge longer so that one could finish to 20 as a theurge rather than having to abandon it 4-2 levels before 20.

Spoilered for off topic...

I think they are viable. If you compare everything to a level 20 wizard as a measure of a build's viability, than hardly anything is. I favor prudence in designing prestige classes, especially when dealing with potentially game breaking features such as dual-casting. From my perspective, the Mystic Theuge is completely fine, and a fun build which I have enjoyed using in the past, and enjoy using for enemies.

[avr]

If you want the religious wizard flavour, some oracles might do it for you better than a mystic theurge in PF. Heavens or Wind mysteries for example. Some of the sorcerer bloodlines, too.

Mystic theurge isn't the only way to combine divine magic and arcane magic, or effects of that kind.

[Blisstake]

Actually, I don't think Oracle is a very good choice. You take the full penalties of the curse without it getting any better, your mysteries don't advance at all (which is usually more of a loss than bloodline powers), and they get new spell levels slower than a cleric.

[avr]

I'm talking about using an oracle without the mystic theurge PrC and calling that your 'mystic theurge', not combining it with the PrC.

[Blisstake]

I fail at reading comprehension once again!

That actually sounds like a pretty neat concept.

[Southern Cross]

Or using the witch class from the APG and calling it a "Mystic Theurge".:smallbiggrin:

[Acanous]

For those who think Mystic Theurge is fun to play:

Picture your level 1 wizard.
He gets to level 2. More first level spells!
Then he takes a level of Cleric. More first level spells!
Wiz2/Cler2. More first level spells!
Level 5. You get a couple SECOND level spells.
Level 6. More Second level spells!
Level 7. More Second level spells!
Level 8. You *Finally* get Fireball.

Now, imagine playing through that. Sure you can go wizard for 1,2,3 to get 2nd level spells, but you're only getting more 1st level spells at 4 and 5. Either way you do it, by level 7, you've still only got 2nd level spells, albeit a lot of them. You could go for like 8 encounters a day and still have enough 1st and 2nd level spells to sling one every round.
...But a 7th level Wizard has 4th level spells, and even a low-op wizard has been ending encounters with a single spell since level 5.

a 9th level wizard gets Teleport. Planar Binding, Lesser. These spells can render entire dungeons moot. You'll get them at level 12.
At 16, when Mystic Theurge ends? You've got 7th level spells. You're Finally *Starting* to catch up, as the single-class guy only has 8ths, but one level from now he wins the game with 9ths, and you still have 7th.

Nobody answered my question about a second Theurge class in Pathfinder to make up those last 4 levels, btw. Is there one?

If there is, the Theurge *Finally* catches up to the single-class caster at level 20. Which is the end of the campaign. If there is not, he goes either wiz or cler for the last 4 levels, and STILL catches up at 20, but has less 8th/9th lv spells, in exchange for more 7th and lower.

The biggest thing to consider for Mystic Theurge is that More low-level spells is Not an advantage. Action Economy dictates you get one spell per round. Two if you Quicken, which M.Theurge gets slower access to as well.
"This guy can go all day and that balances him with casters, which have limited spells" is the logic behind Fighters.

Now, I'm not saying it *Can't* be fun, but it is objectively harder to have fun with it. Encounters at your level are going to save against your spells 10% more often. Your actions are going to be less effective. You will have fewer options, while having a bigger pool of them to choose from. Isn't that weird?

The biggest thing to remember about M.theurge is that you aren't losing *One* spell level, you are losing *Two*.
You're a full-caster, with no real use other than spellcasting, yet you're keeping up with...a bard... until what, level 16?

Classes like Arcane Heirophant and Ultimate Magus at least recognise that this tradeoff is less than fair, and give you something else to help compensate (Better Familiar/animal companion and Metamagic Reducers, respectively). Mystic Theurge is pretty cut-and-dry underpowered. The same way a Paladin will be outperformed by a Cleric, a Mystic Theurge will be outperformed by a Wizard.

[grarrrg]

Nobody answered my question about a second Theurge class in Pathfinder to make up those last 4 levels, btw. Is there one?

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
*rimshot*

[navar100]

For those who think Mystic Theurge is fun to play:

Picture your level 1 wizard.
He gets to level 2. More first level spells!
Then he takes a level of Cleric. More first level spells!
Wiz2/Cler2. More first level spells!
Level 5. You get a couple SECOND level spells.
Level 6. More Second level spells!
Level 7. More Second level spells!
Level 8. You *Finally* get Fireball.

Now, imagine playing through that. Sure you can go wizard for 1,2,3 to get 2nd level spells, but you're only getting more 1st level spells at 4 and 5. Either way you do it, by level 7, you've still only got 2nd level spells, albeit a lot of them. You could go for like 8 encounters a day and still have enough 1st and 2nd level spells to sling one every round.
...But a 7th level Wizard has 4th level spells, and even a low-op wizard has been ending encounters with a single spell since level 5.

a 9th level wizard gets Teleport. Planar Binding, Lesser. These spells can render entire dungeons moot. You'll get them at level 12.
At 16, when Mystic Theurge ends? You've got 7th level spells. You're Finally *Starting* to catch up, as the single-class guy only has 8ths, but one level from now he wins the game with 9ths, and you still have 7th.

Nobody answered my question about a second Theurge class in Pathfinder to make up those last 4 levels, btw. Is there one?

If there is, the Theurge *Finally* catches up to the single-class caster at level 20. Which is the end of the campaign. If there is not, he goes either wiz or cler for the last 4 levels, and STILL catches up at 20, but has less 8th/9th lv spells, in exchange for more 7th and lower.

The biggest thing to consider for Mystic Theurge is that More low-level spells is Not an advantage. Action Economy dictates you get one spell per round. Two if you Quicken, which M.Theurge gets slower access to as well.
"This guy can go all day and that balances him with casters, which have limited spells" is the logic behind Fighters.

Now, I'm not saying it *Can't* be fun, but it is objectively harder to have fun with it. Encounters at your level are going to save against your spells 10% more often. Your actions are going to be less effective. You will have fewer options, while having a bigger pool of them to choose from. Isn't that weird?

The biggest thing to remember about M.theurge is that you aren't losing *One* spell level, you are losing *Two*.
You're a full-caster, with no real use other than spellcasting, yet you're keeping up with...a bard... until what, level 16?

Classes like Arcane Heirophant and Ultimate Magus at least recognise that this tradeoff is less than fair, and give you something else to help compensate (Better Familiar/animal companion and Metamagic Reducers, respectively). Mystic Theurge is pretty cut-and-dry underpowered. The same way a Paladin will be outperformed by a Cleric, a Mystic Theurge will be outperformed by a Wizard.

In other words, if you aren't a spellcaster casting one spell to end the encounter you are The Suck Why Do You Exist. It's not necessary to be such a spellcaster. If you must, must be such a spellcaster then Mystic Theurge is not for you. First and Second level spells are not The Suck Why Do You Exist, and it would be foolish for a Mystic Theurge to learn Fireball at 8th level. He's better off taking Stinking Cloud for a potent area attack or Displacement if he prefers to continue his party member support.

It's a matter of personal taste. Some people really need to cast 4th level spells at level 7. Nothing wrong with that. Others don't.

[Curious]

In other words, if you aren't a spellcaster casting one spell to end the encounter you are The Suck Why Do You Exist. It's not necessary to be such a spellcaster. If you must, must be such a spellcaster then Mystic Theurge is not for you. First and Second level spells are not The Suck Why Do You Exist, and it would be foolish for a Mystic Theurge to learn Fireball at 8th level. He's better off taking Stinking Cloud for a potent area attack or Displacement if he prefers to continue his party member support.

It's a matter of personal taste. Some people really need to cast 4th level spells at level 7. Nothing wrong with that. Others don't.

Except that's. . . Not what he's saying at all. He's saying that in relation to any regular spellcaster, a Mystic Theurge is going to be very, very far behind. This is a problem because most parties are assumed to have two spellcasters, which the Theurge is presumably one of. This means he is going to be overshadowed unless his ally deliberately holds back, which won't be any fun for him.

[Acanous]

indeed. The only time a Mystic Theurge is going to fit in well with a party, is when the party is made for T3 or T4 play.
If the other spellcaster is a Bard, and the other two party members are a Fighter and a Rogue, you'll fit in fine.
Otherwise, picture yourself at level 7. Any time someone casts a *Third* level spell, you're going to feel behind. Your ally has *Fourth* level spells. This continues throughout the class, every odd level.
If you allow 3rd edition splat with your Pathfinder, it's not so bad.
You could retrain and end up Wizard 1 (Precocious apprentice) Cleric 1 (Sanctum Spell) Mystic Theurge, and be on par with a Sorceror/Favored Soul.
But even then, you could instead go Wizard 1 (Precocious Apprentice, Animal Companion variant)/Cleric 1 (Sanctum Spell) into Arcane Heirophant->Legacy Champion, and be human or grab a flaw to take Southern Magician and be SAD, ending with 9th level Arcane/Divine without ever touching M. Theurge.

In 3.5, Mystic Theurge was a good concept execuited poorly, and there were patches published. In Pathfinder, they just took Theurge, scrapped the patches, and got rid of any added means of theurging, meaning you're stuck with 7th level casting cap in at least one of your types of magic.
(Well, I suppose you COULD go for Dual 8ths, but really? Is that what they intended?)

I would argue that Mystic Theurge is to a casting class what NPC classes are to Melee or Skill classes. You'd really be better off rolling a bard and maxing out Use Magic Device.

[Jack Zander]

They should have taken a hint from Final Fantasy and given them a capstone ability called X-Magic where they get to cast two of their spells as a single standard action. Now THAT would be worth the loss of spell levels.

[Blisstake]

They should have taken a hint from Final Fantasy and given them a capstone ability called X-Magic where they get to cast two of their spells as a single standard action. Now THAT would be worth the loss of spell levels.

That would break action economy so hard...

I mean, they can do it once/day at 10th level, but that's balanced by the fact you have to put up with 10 levels of the PrC before being able to do that.

[Jack Zander]

That would break action economy so hard...

I mean, they can do it once/day at 10th level, but that's balanced by the fact you have to put up with 10 levels of the PrC before being able to do that.

I don't think it would be so bad, especially when you're already casting spells of lower levels, effects, and DCs. Actually, it would be a bit more balanced if it were an at-will ability that was limited by actually combining the effects of two spells rather than having both spells cast separately. For example, you could combine the effects of two different ray spells such as enervation and an orb spell to create a spell that damages an enemy while also draining levels. Or you could combine two AoE spells so long as the final result uses the smaller area to make a fireball that explodes into a nauseating cloud. That way at least the caster isn't creating a cloudkill and then also trapping a creature inside of it in all the same action.

[Particle_Man]

Since this thread is on MT anyhow, I will add a qu or 2 or 3:

1) Would a Cleric/Sorcerer/MT get to add cleric domain spells/slots and sorcerer bloodline spells to the appropriate domain slots/spells known as she advances in MT levels (not the other domain/bloodline powers, mind, just the spells.

2) If the answer to #1 is no, would it make the class too powerful to houserule that no into a yes anyhow? It seems to be adding more variety to the MT, which is their schtick, without adding to the high-level power, as they still can't cast as high level spells as their single-classed compatriots.

3) What if one said "screw it" and houseruled that MTs get *all* the abilities of the two contributing classes as they levelled up as MT? Assuming no early entry (so one would need 3 or 4 levels of each class before starting MT) would this make the MT too powerful?

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: Thread Closed for Topic Drift. In the future, folks, if someone specifies a d20 variant, try to limit things to just that variant, please. If a more general discussion, feel free to flog your favorite.