Proposed Changes to a Few Core Classes

[vartan]

I am hoping to take up the reigns to DM another game, and was hoping that the Playground would offer an opinion on a few alterations to the Core classes:

1. Sorcerers get the Eschew Materials feat for free at 1st level. I'm also considering giving them a feature that adds 2 to the DC of all the Spellcraft checks made to determine the spell they are casting.

2. Wizards get either Skill Focus: Spellcraft or Skill Focus: Knowledge Arcana- or a class feature that allows them to use INT in place of CHA for UMD checks (does such a thing even exist)?

3. Monks get full BAB but drop to 2+ Int for skills instead of 4+.

[Seerow]

First, this should probably be in the homebrew forum.


1&2) Wizards and Sorcerers really don't need any sort of buffs. What you're talking about is minor enough it probably doesn't matter, but still totally unnecessary.

3) You can give monks full BAB with no penalty to skills and still not make them overpowered.

[Voyager_I]

Why are you buffing Wizards? That's literally the last thing you need to do.

You don't have to take away the Monk's skillpoints. They suck, and giving them full BAB isn't going to swing them far enough to be needing nerfs.

[vartan]

Okay. Well how do you both feel about a Feat or the like that allows you to substitute INT for CHA for the purposes of UMD?

I just wanted to draw another sort of distinction between the Wizard's book magic and the Sorcerer's blood magic kinda vibe.

[deuxhero]

3) You can give monks full BAB with no penalty to skills and still not make them overpowered.

Hell, you can give monks a Familiar and they won't be overpowered!

[Pigkappa]

1. Sorcerers get the Eschew Materials feat for free at 1st level. I'm also considering giving them a feature that adds 2 to the DC of all the Spellcraft checks made to determine the spell they are casting.
Fluffwise, these are ok.

Crunchwise, maybe you're doing this to make the Sorcerers not as worse compared to wizards. These changes are minor and won't do the trick. You need to give them access to high level spells one level earlier, or seriously bump up the number of spells known, to do that.



2. Wizards get either Skill Focus: Spellcraft or Skill Focus: Knowledge Arcana- or a class feature that allows them to use INT in place of CHA for UMD checks (does such a thing even exist)?

Wizards don't really need any more feat or class feature.



3. Monks get full BAB but drop to 2+ Int for skills instead of 4+.
Just give them full BAB.



Okay. Well how do you both feel about a Feat or the like that allows you to substitute INT for CHA for the purposes of UMD?

I just wanted to draw another sort of distinction between the Wizard's book magic and the Sorcerer's blood magic kinda vibe.
The feat would be ok; you should also add UMD to the Wizard's skills however, if you want to make it a common choice.



Your ideas are ok fluffwise, but consider that you are making stronger some of the classes that are already going to cause you a lot of trouble if played at a decent level of optimization. If you want to balance things out, you need to help Fighters, Rogues, Rangers, Barbarians and Monks, not Sorcerers, Wizards, Clerics and Druids.

[erikun]

Okay. Well how do you both feel about a Feat or the like that allows you to substitute INT for CHA for the purposes of UMD?

I just wanted to draw another sort of distinction between the Wizard's book magic and the Sorcerer's blood magic kinda vibe.
Use Magic Device is one of the strongest skills in the game, and giving it to wizards (with INT synergy to boot!) would make them able to do quite literally anything they wanted.

It might not be a bad idea, but it would be a significant power boost to the class.

[TuggyNE]

Hell, you can give monks a Familiar and they won't be overpowered!

No, not the familiar! Monks should not trade their flavor for power. :smalltongue:

Props to anyone who catches the reference...

[Voyager_I]

Use Magic Device is one of the strongest skills in the game, and giving it to wizards (with INT synergy to boot!) would make them able to do quite literally anything they wanted.

It might not be a bad idea, but it would be a significant power boost to the class.

Basically, this. UMD would give Wizards access to practically everything, and with it keyed of Intelligence they wouldn't even have to sacrifice anything to get it. If there's something you don't want your game tweaks to do, it's give Wizards easy access to even more options. This is a class that can already break the game over its knee.

[Snowbluff]

3. Monks get full BAB but drop to 2+ Int for skills instead of 4+.

If you take out FoB, no problem!

[Andvare]

Just give mooks, emm, monks, yes, monks pounce. It fits well with their intended purpose.

[sonofzeal]

So..... dare I ask, what are your design goals? Are you trying to make the game more self-consistent? Trying to make all classes useful and balanced? Giving a couple nifty toys because everyone likes getting nifty toys?

[Suddo]

How do you think the core classes are balanced against each other as it currently stands? Just kind of a general listing. And just as a note giving Sorc Eschew Material is something I've considered.

[prufock]

I give Sorcerers Eschew Materials for free, not because they need a buff, but for flavour reasons. It doesn't make a big difference; all it does is save them a bit of gold for the spell component pouch. Material components over 1gp aren't affected.

Don't give wizards anything. There's no need. Their flavour is fine, and they are among the most powerful classes already.

I give monks full BAB, leave the skills alone, and let them take their extra flurry attacks as a standard action.

[Venger]

No, not the familiar! Monks should not trade their flavor for power. :smalltongue:

Props to anyone who catches the reference...

Lightning mage. nice.

[deuxhero]

Which was the joke in the first place.

[Particle_Man]

For wizards and sorcerers, give them those suggested buffs but then force the character to multi-class alternating wizard and sorcerer, without taking any other classes or prestige classes.

For monks, give them full BAB and allow them to use flurry of blows as a standard action and to wear light armour without losing any of their abilities and give them 8 skill points + int bonus per level.

[Chess435]

For monks, give them full BAB and allow them to use flurry of blows as a standard action and to wear light armour without losing any of their abilities and give them 8 skill points + int bonus per level.

And pounce, but not until like 6th level or so.

[Lans]

Just give mooks, emm, monks, yes, monks pounce. It fits well with their intended purpose.


And pounce, but not until like 6th level or so.

Honestly giving monk pounce seems like lazy ability making. I suggest give him an additional 5' step, a 5' longer 5' step, swift action move, dimension hop.

[nedz]

Reducing a Monk's skill points would completely wreck the class, they'd never have enough points to spend on UMD.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

I think that the difference between the Scribe Scroll feat (which wizards already get) and the Eschew Materials feat is defining enough for wizards. And I agree with everyone else about the monk.

[NamelessNPC]

Why so much color?

If someone doesn't get the sarcasm the color won't help much

On Topic, Monks with full BAB + light armor + 8 skill ranks + pounce are still dumb, shallow, MAD characters that cannot do damage and still miss more oftenly than the other melees because they need that horrible overcosted item to modify their natural attacks (Necklace of natural attacks, is it?) and now they have to pay for armor

[JackMage666]

Actually, Amulet of Natural Attacks is fairly priced if I remember correctly. It's the Amulet of Mighty Fists that makes you go "huh?"

I never got why Wizards get Bonus Feats and Sorcs don't. It's like the developers were going "Ok, so the Sorcerer learns like, 5 spells per spell level, and can cast any he wants like 6 times a day! DONE! Onto the Wizard... Well, he's smart, so he should be able to cast higher level spells faster, and lets let him know any and all spells he can get his hands on, but he has to decide which ones to use in a day! Oh, that's still too weak compared to the Sorcerers awesome sponatenous casting, give him bonus feats, too."

Personally, I like Spontaneous Casting more than Prepared, but pre-cheese, they're much more limited. Even in Core. I don't know how 16-year old High School student me noticed this my first D&D game, but Wizards of the Coast clearly didn't, as the splatbooks loved this pattern too.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Actually, Amulet of Natural Attacks is fairly priced if I remember correctly. It's the Amulet of Mighty Fists that makes you go "huh?"

Because a druid can throw the amulet on his pet cougar to give it the equivalent of 3 magic weapons. And monks are effectively dual-wielding.


I never got why Wizards get Bonus Feats and Sorcs don't. It's like the developers were going "Ok, so the Sorcerer learns like, 5 spells per spell level, and can cast any he wants like 6 times a day! DONE! Onto the Wizard... Well, he's smart, so he should be able to cast higher level spells faster, and lets let him know any and all spells he can get his hands on, but he has to decide which ones to use in a day! Oh, that's still too weak compared to the Sorcerers awesome sponatenous casting, give him bonus feats, too."

Personally, I like Spontaneous Casting more than Prepared, but pre-cheese, they're much more limited. Even in Core. I don't know how 16-year old High School student me noticed this my first D&D game, but Wizards of the Coast clearly didn't, as the splatbooks loved this pattern too.

It's more of a "blast everything in the room" problem than a "use utility to solve encounters with a single spell" problem. The issue isn't class versatility (or tiers), it's power balance.

[Killer Angel]

Hell, you can give monks a Familiar and they won't be overpowered!

I pity the poor familiar. :smalltongue:

[tyckspoon]

Personally, I like Spontaneous Casting more than Prepared, but pre-cheese, they're much more limited. Even in Core. I don't know how 16-year old High School student me noticed this my first D&D game, but Wizards of the Coast clearly didn't, as the splatbooks loved this pattern too.

Imagine a Wizard whose 3rd level spell loadout is all Fireballs. Every so often, for variety, he prepares a Lightning Bolt instead, maybe because he's in a place where space is tight and the Line area is easier to aim than trying not to catch your allies in Fireball's burst. Once in a while he puts a Haste in there because the party Fighter keeps bugging him about it.

Now imagine a spontaneous version of that Wizard. You've decided that a spontaneous caster should have more magic available to him, ie, more spell slots. That spontaneous Wizard not only can cast more Fireballs or Lightning Bolts, he doesn't even have to choose which one he wants until the moment he casts! And hey, if he's feeling generous, or dealing with something that has really good Reflexes or lots of energy resistance, he can give the Fighter that Haste on the fly too! This is *clearly* hugely overpowered, and needs some kind of significant drawback to keep it in check! So not only will we give this Spontaneous Wizard a nigh-punitive limit on the number of spells he can know, we'll delay his progression.

Now, you have some system knowledge, so that sounds pretty insane, right? Well, I exaggerated a little bit, but anecdotal evidence of some playtesters along with developer commentary and playtest reports indicate that that was basically how they felt about the Sorcerer- Wizards Are For Blasting, and they were *paranoid* that getting to spontaneously choose what you blast with would be overpowered.

[Metahuman1]

Monk. Give him Full BAB and pounce, swift action movement, and class features that let him dump everything, literally, except for Int and Dex. Now give him more class skills that do something outside combat. Now, give him assorted Immunity's and a stronger class armor bonus progression to AC. Maybe add a class miss chance progression as he starts getting into the levels were AC starts to matter less.


Congratulations, he's a playable class as long as the rest of the party isn't going far and away out of there way to break the game.

[Sutremaine]

From the SRD:

The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand.


To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any).

Based on that, the other benefit of Eschew Materials is that you only need one hand free to cast a spell with both a somatic and a material component and can therefore keep a weapon to hand, yes?