Help me funk my Monk!

[TonyTron]

Creating an Orc Monk for a campaign loosely based on Dungeon Keeper II (PC game) and could use some assistance...

The DM's changes to Orcs are as follows:
*The -2 Wis is gone
*Endurance is now a racial trait

That said, my last experience with a monk was pretty terrible. I was pretty useless in the powerhouse group I was with. This time around we have a barbarian, druid, and rogue. The stats I rolled were: 18, 15, 15, 15, 14, 12.

Suggestions for build? Suggestions in general?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

That said, my last experience with a monk was pretty terrible. I was pretty useless in the powerhouse group I was with.

That's because you were playing a Monk, no other reason. Rather than picking a class, pick what you want the character to do; no matter what you pick, there's a better class for doing it than Monk, even if you pick being a monk.

[Eldariel]

Creating an Orc Monk for a campaign loosely based on Dungeon Keeper II (PC game) and could use some assistance...

The DM's changes to Orcs are as follows:
*The -2 Wis is gone
*Endurance is now a racial trait

That said, my last experience with a monk was pretty terrible. I was pretty useless in the powerhouse group I was with. This time around we have a barbarian, druid, and rogue. The stats I rolled were: 18, 15, 15, 15, 14, 12.

Suggestions for build? Suggestions in general?

Ugh. Default Monk? 'cause your stats are a tad low for one, even in a relatively low-powered group. Plenty of reasonable Monk-like options exist though. Have you considered an Unarmed Swordsage [Tome of Battle]? Or Monk/Druid or Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist [Complete Divine]? Monk/Psychic Warrior or Monk/Ardent with Tashalatora? Monk-class features some of the worst latter levels in the game and the first few levels tend to want other classes to get to shine.

[godryk]

Hi! I've just started a new campaign of my invention with a mix of experienced and unexperienced players, so I'm just sticking to the basic books so far. My most experienced player has decided to give it a go to the monk and he's doing pretty well with a couple of tricks.

First of all, he's using magical electric gauntlets, which clearly strengthens his flurry of blows. However, not all DMs agree about monks using gauntlets.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139404

The other cool feature is using a potion belt paired with some Wizard Armor potions, which allows him to reach a decent AC of 22 (not bad for a level 5 monk).

Besides you have to take advantage of your superior speed and use all the lovely skills (tumble, jump, climb, swim...), a monk can be very useful to the group if your DM makes jumping, swimming and all that kind of stuff useful.

[MidgetMarine]

can i just take your rolls and never come back? My dwarf, thanks to a ****ty roll and ability damage, has a 7 wisdom. D: D: D: D:

[TonyTron]

First of all, he's using magical electric gauntlets, which clearly strengthens his flurry of blows. However, not all DMs agree about monks using gauntlets.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139404

...a monk can be very useful to the group if your DM makes jumping, swimming and all that kind of stuff useful.

I brought up the gauntlet thread to my DM, so we'll see how he responds to it. That would clearly be a nice incentive to go through with this class :smallsmile:

[Gavinfoxx]

Aren't you allowed to combine items? Isn't there some way to combine Amulet of Mighty Fists and Necklace of Natural Attacks and end up ahead of where you would be if you had either item, as a Monk?

[dextercorvia]

At what levels are you playing? I may be able to build you something.

[TonyTron]

At what levels are you playing? I may be able to build you something.

Right on! We're jumping in at level 5.

[Elfinor]

And what books/sources are you allowed?

[dextercorvia]

Right on! We're jumping in at level 5.

Running to? Sources?

[TonyTron]

And what books/sources are you allowed?

Pretty much limited to the core books (3.5 obviously). This include things like Player's Handbook II, so on and so forth. If I make a compelling case for something, then he MAY open to bits and pieces from other sources.

[dextercorvia]

Pretty much limited to the core books (3.5 obviously). This include things like Player's Handbook II, so on and so forth. If I make a compelling case for something, then he MAY open to bits and pieces from other sources.

Completes? Races books?

[Gavinfoxx]

Uh, Yea.

Core is this:
PHB
DMG
MM1.

Anything else is not core.

So what do you have access to?
SRD?
The free online stuff?
PHB II?
The first four Completes?
The Second Four Completes?
The Races of series? What is your REAL limitation?

[TonyTron]

Completes? Races books?

Just checked, he sounds open to those, "As long as you don't go all super Saiyan."

[Gavinfoxx]

Just checked, he sounds open to those, "As long as you don't go all super Saiyan."

You do know you can do that with two books, the PHB and the Monster Manual? He knows that too?

Its easy. Play a Druid 20, get natural spell at level 6, use your class features with half a brain.

In more detail, play a human Druid 20, Max Con and Wis. Always upgrade your animal companion as soon as you can. Use your spells for battlefield control, summons, and buffs. Spend as much time in wild shape as possible, to the point that you are never out of it by level 8 if you REMOTELY expect that you might get in a fight or something (there is a cheap item in the DMG that lets you communicate with those around you, if you care). Use cure light wounds wands or summoned unicorns to heal, out of combat. Go for the biggest, baddest form you can, or some that automatically wins against whatever you are going up against (like burrowing, climbing, flying, high-capability grappling forms or forms with trample or whatever). Get barding for your favorite forms for yourself and your animal companion. Use long-duration buffs and utility spells well. Consider stuff that is easy to put on an animal, like amulets, a monk's belt, stuff like that.

Be an armor-wearing bear with a pet armor-wearing bear summoning more bears. You can always use more bears to solve a problem.

For crying out loud, you get long duration strategic flight at level five!

[TonyTron]

So what do you have access to?...
What is your REAL limitation?

Oh oh, sorry about the misunderstanding. Just in case my previous response to a related question wasn't sufficient, I believe that pulling from these sources is acceptable. My group isn't particularly well versed outside of the actual core books, but as long as the build doesn't make the other more traditional characters irrelevant then I think it'll fly (that said, our Nycter Druid is pretty insane).

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, yes, is the Druid doing the things I mentioned in the other thread?

What actual books does your group have easy access to?

[TonyTron]

Well, yes, is the Druid doing the things I mentioned in the other thread?

What actual books does your group have easy access to?

We basically have access to the primary core books and D20srd. Obviously, our Nyctar character brought that race to the attention of the DM from another book, but it had to be looked over, altered, then approved first. He uses his animal companion pretty frequently, and swarms bats all over the place... he also flies away from most danger.

[Hunter Killer]

Might I suggest Vow of Poverty with some way (Perhaps Cleric) to get Animal Devotion and Travel Devotion?

Animal Devotion and Travel Devotion get you the ability to Fly (Important for a non-caster) and the ability to semi-pounce (Important for melee characters). Cleric (w/VoP stat increases and Turn Undead) gets you more Turn attempts to spend on the Devotions.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea. That is totally like under 1/10th of what the Druid can do.

If that is considered rocking out, you have an EXTREMELY low optimization group.

Still.

NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER take Vow of Poverty. It's a complete trap, especially on the most item dependent Player Character class in the game (the Monk). Even with the mitigation techniques mentioned, it drastically lowers the sorts of fun you can have in a major aspect of the game (getting and using items creatively and being versatile with item use and ranged combat and and...)

[Gavinfoxx]

Can you switch to a Psychic Warrior instead?

If you have...

PHB
DMG
MM1

SRD

as your main sources, with occassional stuff outside them...

Then, well..

I suppose I would suggest looking into Secrets of Sarlona and the Eberron Campaign Setting and maybe playing a Monk2 (Passive Way)/Psychic Warrior 18? With the Tashalatora feat?


And maybe you could consider playing a druid for a few sessions. Not as a full long term thing, just as a temporary character for a few sessions to open the peoples minds for the combat capability of the class, and raise the bar for what things can be done in the player's minds?

What character level are you at?

[TonyTron]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions and reminders as to the many reasons not to play a straight on Monk, haha!

I'm pretty restricted to whatever the core books and D20srd can do for me in creating a modified Orc (see beginning of thread) Monk at level 5, utilizing feats, arranging stats, ect...

I expect I won't be much help in combat, but I'll make up for that in RP elements :smallsmile:

[Gavinfoxx]

Well.

If you want to use the actual monk class, there IS enough capability to make it somewhat competent.

Somewhat.

It requires massive amounts of book diving, though.

[TonyTron]

Well.

If you want to use the actual monk class, there IS enough capability to make it somewhat competent.
It requires massive amounts of book diving, though.

Right?! Yeah, I've been combing online for a while now...:smallconfused:

[Gavinfoxx]

Right?! Yeah, I've been combing online for a while now...:smallconfused:

Well, here you go:


Here's what I would do:

Lesser Zenythri Monk 5
Use Passive Way, from SRD.
Use Raging Monk, from Dragon Magazine 310
Trade Rage for Whirling Frenzy from the SRD, it is a barbarian ACF
Use some of the Alternative Weapon Styles from Dragon Magazine 330, getting you different useful and more proficient weapons. Choose the one based on filipino martial arts. Wield a Longsword (two handed!). Call the weapon a "Kampilan" to make it seem exotic.
Use Sacred Strike from Dragon Magazine 346. Choose Heironeus (you are lawful good, and you follow Heironeus...), use your longsword (his favored weapon) two handed, especially when Frenzying. Do crazy stuff with that smite feature from Sacred Strike, which works with the Longsword. I don't believe you have any class features that require you to use a 'special monk weapon' any more... its more focusing on the favored weapon of your god.
Use Water Step from Stormwrack, or Wall Walker from Dungeonscape.
Use Invisible Fist from Exemplars of Evil.
Use Resistant Body from Planar Handbook. Choose something that lots of monsters use, like Fire.
Make sure to pick up the Extra Rage feat from Complete Warrior!

I have four suggestions here:

1.) Focus on a raw damage / accuracy / really lawful good character. This would mean you would use the Zenythri Race from Monster Manual 2, along with the Lesser Planetouched option from Players Guide to Faerun to remove the Level Adjustment. Remember, per some math and looking at its stats, its racial ability modifiers are:
STR +2 DEX +2 WIS +2 CHA -2.
This handbook talks about that:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6992.0

With that, you would use Law Devotion and maybe Power Attack as your L3 and L6 feats or something (both builds would take extra rage as the l1 feat, and the Monk bonus feats are already spoken for via passive way).

2.) Be a Human and focus on tripping
With this, you might consider Apprentice (Criminal) to get Bluff as a class skill, so you get the L6 Passive Way stuff. You will want to get something like Jotunbrud from Races of Faerun as well. Consider taking flaws in SRD to get sufficient feats. Dont choose any flaws that disrupts your primary fighting style. Of course by level 6 you will need Skill Focus (Bluff)... ew... but combined with Jotunbrud, the trip stuff an okay bonus. Get Knock-Down (SRD) at some point. Describe yourself as tripping people with feet or hands or whatever, and normally attacking with your Longsword. You just sometimes grab them and trip them occasionally.

3.) Be a Human monk that follows Ilmater (or some deity inspired by him, he's a forgotten realms deity) who focuses on unarmed attacks, and Wild Shape. Here is how you do this: First, you look at Wild Monk in Dragon Magazine #324. You get special permission to combine that with Rage Monk -- unfortunately, they normally don't combine. Consider using Holy Strike, or follow Ilmater (a Forgotten Realms Deity) so you can take Sacred Strike and have it wor on unarmed attack. Get permission from the DM for that to work on Natural Attacks as well. Take the 3rd level Monk Substitution level from Champions of Valor. Note how that particular substitution does not specifically say it replaces Still Mind, unlike some other stuff in that book -- it is just a substitution level. For taking Wild Monk, you will remove a few things: All the Passive Way benefits, and you remove either Wall Walker or Water Step. You gain Resist Nature's Lure, so you have the option of replacing that with some things taken from the Planar Druid substitution level in Planar Handbook, or the Iron Constitution option in the Cityscape Web Enhancement. One more very important thing. For the times where you don't have Pounce via Wild Shape, you might want to consider the Lion Tribe Warrior feat from the book Shining South. This lets you do a full attack after a charge with one of your weapons -- perhaps Unarmed Strike or Claw?

4.) If you are required to be a bad guy of a bad guy race attacking good guys, and the DM gets rid of Wisdom penalties of bad guy races.
For this one, you might want to consider a few races: Water Orc, from SRD, or Krynn Minotaur from Dragonlance Campaign Setting (which supposedly doesn't look like a Minotaur). Take Unholy Strike (it works on good-aligned characters), or Sacred Strike for an evil deity with the Unarmed Strike as a favored weapon. Perhaps the Orcish Lesser Deity Yurtrus, from Forgotten Realms, might work? His favored weapon is the Unarmed Strike; this would work well on a Water Orc. Here, you might even consider Wild Monk -- depending on whether or not you want the early utility of Passive Way and Wall Walking / Water Step, or the later utility of Wild Shape. If you have flaws, and you don't go Wild Monk, you might even be able to manage some parts of the tripping build. Anyway, get Improved Natural Attack - Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike as quickly as possible (for the latter, get a Monk's Belt and a Monk's Tattoo (Magic of Faerun)). Get Snap Kick as soon as possible, too. Remember that when you Wild Shape, if you are in an appropriate form (bear?), you can get your natural attacks as well as your unarmed strikes. Be Kung Fu Panda!



For #2, maybe write a backstory involving something about being a criminal (if you take the DMG II feat) and then you forsook your criminal ways, finding order, law, religion and discipline in a monastery or something. For the Planetouched, just say something about how this being of law felt a calling to follow Heironeus. Play him like a Paladin or something.

With all of these options except the Wild Monk, you probably want to Prestige Class out as soon as possible. You already got all the useful stuff by level 5, for the most part... and even with Wild Monk, consider Prestige Classes that advance Wild Shaping -- you have already picked up most of your useful class features early on, focus on improving your Wild Shape. The only reason to stay in Monk for any of this stuff is the Sacred Strike bonuses (which are pretty mild) and the extra rages, which you can get from the feats...

For any of these, consider, refluffing Whirling Frenzy as something other than how it is described. Make it a more monk and focus sort of thing. Use flaws to pick up more feats if you can. Use Skill Tricks from Complete Scoundrel, especially the mobility based ones, and the tumbling stuff. Max Tumble.

Or, instead of doing this, you could just play an Unarmed Swordsage. Or you could play a Psychic Warrior instead. Or a simple Tashalatora Passive Way Monk2/Psychic Warrior X. Any of those would probably be more powerful than all of this, most likely. Or a Druid would be more powerful than any of the above. Even a Monk1/Druid19 works fine, but you have to be Lawful Neutral for that.

For the Wild Monk, there are a LOT of great Wild Shape feats out there. Exalted Wild Shape for the good aligned ones. Dragon Wild Shape. Frozen Wild Shape. Assume Supernatural Ability. Multiattack. Unfortunately, most of the best Wild Shape feats require level 9 or 12 to get, but they are still good, solid things to focus on.

[Eldariel]

In this case I'd just go Monk 2/Cleric 4/Sacred Fist -> myself (that is, start Monk 2/Cleric 3 and go Cleric 4 and then Sacred Fist on level 7). Gives you all the best bits from Monk and enough good stuff to keep going later on (Monks are mystical anyways; see their high level abilities like Etherealness and Abundant Step - so this is identical to a Monk), and makes you versatile while being based on your Wisdom.

And it has the same fluff; you still go around whacking people in the face with your unarmed attacks with a bunch of mystic powers. This way you just get some more options on the Mystic Powers-front, including stuff that makes you a combat beast (say, Divine Favor, Divine Power & Righteous Might; also, you could learn Mage Armor if you can get the Spell-domain, which makes sense from the arcane mystical PoV anyways, and you can cast Greater Magic Weapon on your own hands and of course, get a real Spell Resistance from the Spell Resistance spell).


Sacred Fist is really just a natural extension of Monk and that's the ultimate basic Sacred Fist build with the planned entry so shouldn't be too hard to convince the DM, and it'd be the exact same ability set, but with some more leeway.

EDIT: Whatever you do, don't forget to take Improved Natural Attack: Unarmed Strike. It's in Monster Manual, but it specifically works for Monk Unarmed Strike and since Monk Unarmed Strike scales with base dice, increasing the die category is real nice especially combined with getting large.

[godryk]

Another interesting item in the core books is the Monk Belt, my player is saving up for iti, The belt increases your AC bonus and unarmed damage if your DM won't let you use Improved Natural Attack.

[Eldariel]

Another interesting item in the core books is the Monk Belt, my player is saving up for iti, The belt increases your AC bonus and unarmed damage if your DM won't let you use Improved Natural Attack.

Eh, more importantly it goes well with Improved Natural Attack.

[godryk]

Do they stack?

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Do they stack?
Sure they do.

[Eldariel]

Do they stack?

They don't even increase the same thing. Improved Natural Attack increases your size category; so practically you go from Medium Unarmed Strikes to Large Unarmed Strikes as base size (and if you get Enlarged ever, your Unarmed Strikes increase by one category so base size of Huge and so on; nice for Clerics and their Size-increasing magic). Monk's Belt, on the other hand, increases your effective Monk level for Unarmed Strikes; so e.g. level 11 Monk with Monk's Belt counts as a level 16 Monk for Unarmed Strike base size.

As such, it's not a question of stacking since they don't even concern the same stat. A medium level 11 Monk with Monk's Belt and and Improved Unarmed Strike would have Large Level 16 Monk's Unarmed Strike (3d8 from his normal 1d10). If under the effects of Enlarge Person, this would further increase to 4d8. If under the effects of Polymorph-type effect into a Colossal size, his Unarmed Strikes would increase by 4 categories so 3d8 -> 4d8 -> 6d8 -> 8d8 -> 12d8. And if he was a level 15 Monk instead (thus effective Monk level 20 with Monk's Belt) he'd have 4d8 as base; thus 6d8 -> 8d8 -> 12d8 -> 16d8. This is, by far, the biggest benefit of a high Unarmed Strike damage die.

[godryk]

Thank you for the comprehensive answer, I haven't carefully read Improved Natural Attack, but yeah, they do different thigs, so they don't stack. It's awesome how much you can do with just the core books.

[Gavinfoxx]

Slightly better than Improved Natural Attack: Unarmed Strike is the Superior Unarmed Strike. Yes those two and the Monk's Belt stack.

But I prefer weapon based attacks. If you want to do some unarmed fighting along with those, just take Snap Kick.

[Rejusu]

See if your DM will let you do a Monk/Psychic Warrior Tashalatora build. Aside from the two feats you need to make it work it's available on the SRD. You need Monastic Training (Eberron Campaign Setting) and Tashalatora (Secrets of Sarlona). These two feats let you stack your psionic class levels with your monk levels for determining the level of your monk class features.

[Madara]

What is your DM's stance on homebrew? There are some very nice fixes in the forum's homebrew section.

And yeah, choose a concept not a class. Core is kinda hard to make a good monk*, but you don't seem to have a high powered group.

*Even outside of core it's really hard

[Eldariel]

Slightly better than Improved Natural Attack: Unarmed Strike is the Superior Unarmed Strike. Yes those two and the Monk's Belt stack.

How do you find it better? INA starts off the same (1d6 -> 1d8), and scales better and gets stronger the more size increases you get (already at 1d8 you get 2d6 out of INA while SUS only gets you 1d10; at 2d8 SUS is 2d10 while INA is 3d8). INA is always at least as strong for Medium characters, and grows much stronger rather rapidly.

[Gavinfoxx]

How do you find it better? INA starts off the same (1d6 -> 1d8), and scales better and gets stronger the more size increases you get (already at 1d8 you get 2d6 out of INA while SUS only gets you 1d10; at 2d8 SUS is 2d10 while INA is 3d8). INA is always at least as strong for Medium characters, and grows much stronger rather rapidly.

Superior Unarmed Strike scales with level; you cannot assume the character will have access to size increases unless it provides them itself (ie, it is a Tashalatora build). Also, you can get Superior Unarmed Strike earlier. Also, it works better with the Monk's Belt.

[Eldariel]

Superior Unarmed Strike scales with level; you cannot assume the character will have access to size increases unless it provides them itself (ie, it is a Tashalatora build). Also, you can get Superior Unarmed Strike earlier. Also, it works better with the Monk's Belt.

What? INA scales with level better than SUS scales with level. A level 6 Monk with INA does 2d6 damage while one with SUS does 1d10 damage base. A level 13 Monk does 2d8 with SUS and 3d6 with INA. A level 16 Monk with SUS does 2d10, one with INA does 3d8. The higher the sizes the bigger the difference gets of course, as is natural with the die size system. But this is for medium Monks.

I don't think there is any situation in 3.5 in which Superior Unarmed Strike gives you a larger increase in damage than Improved Natural Attack for medium characters with UA Damage progression (or SUS + Monk's Belt gives you more than Monk's Belt + INA).

[Gavinfoxx]

Per the Monk Handbook...

Superior Unarmed Strike + Monk's Belt (DMG/SRD) + Monk's Tattoo (Magic of Faerun) > Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike). Its easier to get items that improve your class than access to spells that improve your class.

[Gavinfoxx]

@OP: So tell us how things went. What did the DM think? The group? What did you try?

[dextercorvia]

Try this.

Orc Monk5

Str>Wis>Con>Dex>Int>Cha

Feats:
1: Pharaohs Fist (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Pharaoh~s_Fist) (Sandstorm)
MB1: IUAS, Stunning Fist
MB2: Fiery Fist (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Fiery_Fist) (PHII)
3: Pain Touch (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Pain_Touch) (CW)

Pharaoh's fist lets your stunning fist attacks chain to adjacent enemies. Pain Touch makes them all nauseated the next round. Fiery Fist charges all of that rounds attacks with +1d6 Fire (costs a stunning attempt) You probably only have enough attempts to use 1 per combat, and 2 in the toughest of the day. If you can take a flaws, then pick up Extra Stunning (CW) to get 3 more attempts and ability focus (MM) to bump the save dc. Don't bother flurrying if you are using Pharaoh's Fist, since you want to make sure that hits.

[Eldariel]

Per the Monk Handbook...

Superior Unarmed Strike + Monk's Belt (DMG/SRD) + Monk's Tattoo (Magic of Faerun) > Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike). Its easier to get items that improve your class than access to spells that improve your class.

SUS + Monk's Belt + INA is stronger than SUS + Monk's Belt + Monk's Tattoo tho, for example. INA is stronger than any of those individually and thus replacing any of those with INA results in more damage than otherwise. Of course, optimally you want 'em all.

All the class improving ones improve the damage by one category outside some fringe cases (stacking multiples is not a fringe case) and a size increase is, outside the very first level, going to be more than one category.

[animewatcha]

Why do people go with SUS and monks belt stacking when they both act based on your original class level? Monk's belt should override SUS.

[The Glyphstone]

Because it's just ambiguous enough to make an argument over, and most of us keep in mind that we are discussing Monks - it's not like it'll be a gamebreaker.