Revisions to the DragonMech System

[TheZenMaster]

So anyway, I like Dragonmech, but personally I noticed some Glitches that really bug me in the system, so this is essentially an online page for me to post my revisions or ideas on. This also will serve as a pathfinder Conversion.

If your interested in Dragonmech bear with me as I try to revise things. Once I finish I will organize them to look better.

Steam Powers:

Steam Power Configurations Can be made Permanent by spending an additional 50% of the cost. The steam power listings in classes show how many steam powers can be combined into one at a time, and how many you can support without making them permanent.

Once a Steam power is made permanent it needs maintenance only once in two months.

Mech PillowFistedness.

This is especially Noticeable the bigger a mech gets is how little damage is done by its attacks.

Lets take a mech that specificaly made for combat. Its made to take out another mech specifically:

The Judge. Its a Colossal 2 Mech, so its no baby 1 man operated mech. its made specifically to take out rouge steam blades.

Lets say its best attack always hits (its claw). It would do 25 damage on average.

It would take it around 50+ hits to take the Steam Blade Down. My god.

And this is a big Combat Mech.

The larger a mech gets the bigger this problem becomes. So a city mech could blast another city mech with all its got and it would take about 60 rounds to take each other out.

This is even a large problem for small mechs. A really crappy mech (One even Nicknamed TINDERTWIG) would take 11 rounds to take out another Tindertwig.

So I suggest that we quadruple the damage made by each attack. Larger mech battles would still take more time, but at least its BEARABLE.

This of course stacks with critical hits.

Onto the next subject: Whilst Undead and animated mechs don't roll for critical hit effects they still suffer critical hit damage. Next.

[TheZenMaster]

Saved For later

[TheZenMaster]

Just in case another one.

[Mulletmanalive]

Your mileage may vary on this, but the "pillowfistedness" of the mechs was obviously supposed to be there, from where i'm sitting.

Goodman wanted to keep the game about the characters, with archers shooting through cockpit vision slots, barbarians swinging over like Napoleonic marines and a good time had by all.

Besides, i've played Dragonmech a lot, and if you're inclined to do it, you can take a mech out in pure melee in a few rounds. You're still MUCH better off game wise boarding it.

Besides, the Judge is just a bad mech. Its weapon outfitting allows it to pound a Steamblade from range. Trying to close with a weapon that locks you into a grapple 90% of the time with a Steamblade is death. Your entire crew will be broiled alive. By comparison, a Fist of Vengence can have that Steamblade disabled within 3 combat rounds. Sooner if the flail operator is good at his job.

[Cieyrin]

Also, I assume a lot of mech pilots pick up Power Attack to help alleviate a lot of that. Quadruple the damage seems excessive, as the mecha saving grace is hardness and high hp. If they're peeling apart like a sledgehammer through a watermelon, there's an issue.

And anyways, most mecha are pretty dependent on their weaponry. They shouldn't be pummeling each other unless they're piloted by Mech Devils, who specifically train to increase their open-handed punch powers.

[TheZenMaster]

I just recently bought the game. I understand. I don't know all of its underlining complexities (I would be glad for help).

Thing is, I want mech combat to be fun. Without tripping, or boarding or some special rule, its mostly bashing two rocks with each other until the other one breaks.

The game is called dragonmech, as in Dragon and Mech. It provides the dragon part, but if the mech combat is discouraged then its not fun.

I can easily fluff up a battle where the characters need to infiltrate things in order to destroy them, but I DONT CARE ABOUT THAT.

Well almost. I get it. I realy do, but I just want the mech jokey ALSO to have a fun time. Not wait it out until the other guys kill everybody inside.

There are also other problems, like the Mech jokey bonus to attack is almost completely pointless when mech ac rarely goes beyond 10.

Also I wasn't sure what you mean by fist of Vengance. Fist of Valor Maybe?

And Ranged combat becomes pointless. You might as well hand the judge a peashooter. Your going to need about 60 shots, more then you can even back onto the mech anyway.

Any other complaints. Please?

I DEMAND YOU GIVE ME COMPLAINTS!

edit:


mecha saving grace is hardness and high hp. If they're peeling apart like a sledgehammer through a watermelon, there's an issue.

Their not. All im doing is reducing 50 rounds of combat to 13 rounds of combat.

Also Im using PF power attack.

Double edit all the way cross the sky:

Im fine tuning the idea:

Any damage you do that bypasses damage reduction you multiply by four. Much better.

[Mulletmanalive]

I can't really comment on where you're coming from.

As I say, I've played the game a lot. Your changes will make mechs unassailable by infantry, which really isn't a part of the Dragonmech setting. If I need magic to get close to the enemy, I don't find that fun.

Also, you're not using power attack and you've calculated low. At the point a mech pilot can actually use Power Attack , he'll be be 7th level. That means the Judge in the example will be dealing 2d12 [average 13] + 13 [uses the mech's strength from the boiler because it's a Lobster Claw] + 7 power attack, which is 33. Plus 2 for Push the Envelope.

By that point, he can easily be making 4 attacks a round, thanks to Mechidexterous. And still hitting with all of them automatically.

If you're using Pathfinder, you can also factor in Vital Strike. And because it just says "attacks" it works on your Vital Strike. So that's 8d10 with one arm and 4d12 +13 +7 on the other.

AND, the Lobster Claw is a nasty weapon when you think about it [haven't used one in a while but i just reread the entry]. They're the ONLY way that a mech can end up in a grapple. This means that the target mech gains the Grappled condition and can't use most of its weapons apart from its unarmed attacks. While the claw keeps crushing the thing.

Anyway, I've already fixed all the issues I saw with the engine long ago when I created my own version. The ones you cite aren't things I had an issue with.

Going to underline my closing thoughts:

[U]Your suggestion of increasing mech weapon damage x4 will make the game unplayable for everyone but mech jockies. That's Jedi syndrome. Boring and you'll never get attached to non-pilot characters because they'll just die.

[TheZenMaster]

As I say, I've played the game a lot. Your changes will make mechs unassailable by infantry

How. Im only multiplying the damage they do to each other. It still takes around 11 rounds at best. Its still more effective to infiltrate the mech anyway.

I wouldn't use infantry to assault a large mech anyway. I have rules for AOE attacks based on size, so attacking a large mech with infantry is a bad idea.


Also, you're not using power attack and you've calculated low.

Mkay so like + 10 extra damage per attack tops? There aren't any two handed mech weapons.

Also Im a bit confused, how much damage do I do with mech attacks. Do I add the ability bonuses? Because the Mech manual has only some of the mechs have the bonuses whilst others don't.

Can I also use ranged attacks in melee?

Maybe if I understand the rules better things will be clearer to me.

[Mulletmanalive]

How. Im only multiplying the damage they do to each other. It still takes around 11 rounds at best. Its still more effective to infiltrate the mech anyway.
That's not what your first post says. You just state that your multiplying damage that mechs deal.


I wouldn't use infantry to assault a large mech anyway. I have rules for AOE attacks based on size, so attacking a large mech with infantry is a bad idea.

Considering that's what the setting and entwined rules were designed to allow, that's just you having a completely different idea of the game to the book.

Read the Nedderpik description and Steam Warriors. The whole development of mechs has been plagued in the setting with the fact that mechs can't attack of opportunity infantry without damaging themselves, so they invested a great deal of time trying to come up with ways around this.

The setting, from the ground up, acknowledges that these great land ships are a massively important thing and impossibly valuable. Like in the sea battles of old, more care is given to try to capture the things than pummel them to scrap, which is a complete waste.

You want to change that, go ahead, but the end result isn't the Dragonmech setting.


Mkay so like + 10 extra damage per attack tops? There aren't any two handed mech weapons.

Also Im a bit confused, how much damage do I do with mech attacks. Do I add the ability bonuses? Because the Mech manual has only some of the mechs have the bonuses whilst others don't.

Can I also use ranged attacks in melee?

Maybe if I understand the rules better things will be clearer to me.

You add Strength to mech melee attacks, yes. Never understood why mech manual didn't include that, though it's probably got something to do with the likelihood of criticals.

I know one of the writers, a chap on the forums with a John Steed picture as his avvy, had some very strange ideas on games design and layout and they didn't edit his stuff much.

You can use ranged attacks in melee and AoOs don't apply.

Buzzsaws don't add strength to hit or damage without a specific class feature from Steam Warriors, but they ignore hardness. Lobster Claws use the strength of the mech, but the personal ones have a strength 18 engine on them.

[TheZenMaster]

That's not what your first post says. You just state that your multiplying damage that mechs deal.

Thats because I suck at conveying ideas.


Considering that's what the setting and entwined rules were designed to allow, that's just you having a completely different idea of the game to the book.

Not realy. Mech to mech Combat or Bording inside and killing it that way.


Read the Nedderpik description and Steam Warriors. The whole development of mechs has been plagued in the setting with the fact that mechs can't attack of opportunity infantry without damaging themselves, so they invested a great deal of time trying to come up with ways around this.

Thing is: Im not going By DD logic. I like Nedderpicks ground defenses. They make sense. You don't want infantry crawling into the legs of your mech. I still don't get what your talking about.


The setting, from the ground up, acknowledges that these great land ships are a massively important thing and impossibly valuable. Like in the sea battles of old, more care is given to try to capture the things than pummel them to scrap, which is a complete waste.

What if im in a warzone or don't need that other mech? What if I just raid the mech once its damaged enough?


You want to change that, go ahead, but the end result isn't the Dragonmech setting.

Thats alright. There are plenty of things I dislike in Dragonmech (The Legion)


You add Strength to mech melee attacks, yes. Never understood why mech manual didn't include that, though it's probably got something to do with the likelihood of criticals.

And Not Dex to ranged attacks?


You can use ranged attacks in melee and AoOs don't apply.

OOOH. OK.

Simply: Can you describe the Logic of How mech Combat can go shorter then 10 rounds (With Minimum size Colossal) without resorting to special attacks or tripping.

[Mulletmanalive]

Simply: Can you describe the Logic of How mech Combat can go shorter then 10 rounds (With Minimum size Colossal) without resorting to special attacks or tripping.

No. Because these things are battleship sized. If you measured the rounds in full minutes and increased the damage by a factor of five or ten, it'd make a little sense. Even the hilariously short battle of the Hood and Bismark lasted for a few minutes.

I've seen halfway skilled mech jocks take out the cockpit on opposing mechs in the first round, though. If anything, against players who know what they're doing, most mech combats are embarrassingly short. Dragonmech pg 93. Single hit with a Colossal 2 mech sword usually does it.

That was something I found the need to revise.

[Cieyrin]

There aren't any two handed mech weapons.

Not quite correct, since Dragonmech is written for 3.0 so it does weapons by sizes and lets the difference between user size and weapon size determine handedness. The published mecha in the campaign setting, Mech Manual and Shardsfall Quest (the books I have) don't typically mount melee weapons bigger than the mecha b/c of the amount of space they take up. I custom designed a Large Steam Mech with Extra weapon mounts to put a Huge Swordblade on it, which means you have to two-hand it and thus get 1.5 Str. It's expensive but it can be done.

[TheZenMaster]

If anything, against players who know what they're doing, most mech combats are embarrassingly short. Dragonmech pg 93. Single hit with a Colossal 2 mech sword usually does it.

That was something I found the need to revise.

I got that.

I completely got that. Fortunately I don't tend to play to win. I play for cinematic flair.


No. Because these things are battleship sized.

Problem is though that If one battleship shoots another equally sized battleship it tends to hurt.

No mech movie or anything like that I saw has the mechs just bashing each other forever and not doing a scratch. Even 50-70 impressive unarmed damage from Neppertiperwhippertripper thats not enough to even really crush a mech thats the comparative size of a cockroach with a single unarmed attack.

Can you not crush a cockroach without stomping on it 50 times?


It's expensive but it can be done.

Thanks mon. Im still confused as heck about the size rules for the steam powers.

If I have a large thingy its what? Is it handheld? What about diminutive?

What about Those little robot guys. Are they Large or are they small?

[Mulletmanalive]

Problem is though that If one battleship shoots another equally sized battleship it tends to hurt.

Not nearly as much as you sound like you're assuming. Not based on WW2 records anyway.

I'm not going to bother trying to convince you of anything though. Good luck with your project.

[TheZenMaster]

Not nearly as much as you sound like you're assuming. Not based on WW2 records anyway.

I'm not going to bother trying to convince you of anything though. Good luck with your project.

Thank you for being very respectful.