Need Second Class for Gestalt Paladin of Tyranny

[PowerGamer]

So I'm making a character for a 7th Level gestalt. We are all using evil characters. I decided to play a paladin of tyranny and not sure what to choose for the other half. I was looking at warmage which would give me some ranged damage as well.

Please suggest any classes that could compliment the Paladin of Tyranny.

[danzibr]

Well any class could compliment the Paladin of Tyranny.

"Gee Pally, you're looking awfully tyrannical today."

As for what class would complement the Paladin of Tyranny... what are you specializing in? A high Cha opens up options, if you're going that route.

[deuxhero]

Paladin of Tyranny 3/Hexblade 4/Blackguard 4/Dread Commando 5/whatever 4//Wilder 20

3x cha to saves, -6 penalty to enemy saves, +5 int for the whole party, no ACP from armor, cha to touch AC and a good number of Save or X effect you can use in armor.

[danzibr]

Paladin of Tyranny 3/Hexblade 4/Blackguard 4/Dread Commando 5/whatever 4//Wilder 20

3x cha to saves, -6 penalty to enemy saves, +5 int for the whole party, no ACP from armor, cha to touch AC and a good number of Save or X effect you can use in armor.
Wilder! That's what I was trying to think of. Well, kinda. If you do go high Cha I was thinking Sorc, but no... casting in armor. Wilder, there we have it.

[deuxhero]

And Hexblade+Dark Companion acf are the only two things that aren't easily obtainable for free...

[PowerGamer]

What do I specialize in... Killing. I have no idea. It looked like a fun class and then I didn't know what to do with it

As for wilder (I love psionics) It's basically the same as the warmage. Combatant with damaging casting

[Otomodachi]

Rogue. Sneak attack for killing, social skills to go with your high Cha. UMD to make up for anything you can't do.

[Wookie-ranger]

Dread Necromancer.
its closely related to the warmage in thatit has the same way of casting spells, but most are necromancy.
+ It's has nice CHA synergy (if you build on CHA, that is),
+ it gives you versatility with spells,
+ it gives you a negative energy burst attack,
+ fear aura (can be combines with other fear effects),
+ a relatively ok touch attack (ask your DM if he would house rule that you can use it with a weapon; if he does not go for that, ask him if you can use it with an empty spell-storing weapon, that's a bit more balanced and 'realistic'),
+ out of combat self heal (when Necropolitan or tomb-tainted soul),
+ rebuking (potentially dmm with the paladin spells),
+ minions (I love minions; whats more fun running around with an undead killing machine? running around with an undead killing machine that brings its own fan-club!:smallbiggrin:).
++ try to convince your mage to take the MM feats 'energy substitution (cold)' and 'lord of utter cold' -> collateral damage be-gone! now your mage can blast and heal you minions at the same time!
+ you can also buff you minions as a Paladin of Tyranny
- if you want to use lots of spells you need to wear light armor, but if you don't go heavy.

+++ It is also very nice flavor for a Paladin of Tyranny in an all Evil group.



to expand the build after level 8 try to go 'walker of the wastes' (sand storm) at level 10 you become a dry-lich (or something like that) an get CHA to HP and a bunch of stuff better then Necropolitan. if you are already undead(which you really shold be as a Dread Necro), no problem, just pay for true-resurrection and you are alive again, then level up.
dont forget to spell stitch yourself (again), and if you want to be a little cheesy become undead in a permanent desecrated area (permanent unnamed bunus to HP); and if you really want to break the game, argue that since you are becoming undead by your self, therefore you are making yourself undead, therefore all your nice corpscrafter feats apply to yourself as well :smallbiggrin:.

[PowerGamer]

Rogues are silly and I dislike them. Necro would be fun.. But... We already have 1 of each in the party

[herrhauptmann]

Rogues are silly and I dislike them. Necro would be fun.. But... We already have 1 of each in the party

So? Play what you want. It's not like additional casting/skills/sneak attack is a bad thing.
Heck, if you went feat rogue, they'd never know you had rogue levels without looking at your sheet.

Why do you say rogues are silly? I can't help but think it's because the first person you saw playing a rogue was a guy who thought comic relief was a fun party role.

[Andion Isurand]

Why not play a cloistered cleric w/ prestige paladin of tyranny for one half of your gestalt character?

Then perhaps 2 levels Swordsage on either side for adding your wisdom to AC while in light armor.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Cobra-Strike Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cobraStrike) 2/ Sorcerer 4/ Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a) 4/ Abjurant Champion etc., and take Ascetic Mage at 6th level. You could swap Sorcerer for Bard, but you'll need Devoted Performer at 3rd and should get Sublime Chord.

[Otomodachi]

So? Play what you want. It's not like additional casting/skills/sneak attack is a bad thing.
Heck, if you went feat rogue, they'd never know you had rogue levels without looking at your sheet.

Why do you say rogues are silly? I can't help but think it's because the first person you saw playing a rogue was a guy who thought comic relief was a fun party role.

Hahah, +1.

To OP- that's cool, obviously you need to like your character. :) I still would recommend picking up something with high skill pts. for the other side of your guy, is all, and the SA dice are going to be pretty nice unless you know you're only gonna be fighting undead, elementals and such. Heck, go with expert and define yourself some class skills.

Just to be clear, I'm not recommending taking disable device or open locks. But bluff, diplomacy... sense motive... climb, jump, tumble, swim, etc. having skill points to burn is no bad thing. :)

[Jeff the Green]

Oh, this just screams for Dread Necro + Dread Witch. Go DN7/DW5/DN8, as suggested here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214212) in the Scarecrow Build, and either be an Illumian or use Southern Magician to DMM Persist Aura of Terror. See if you can dip Bard (possibly with Devoted Performer feat) to pick up Doomspeak. You are now a walking debuffer: come too close, your enemies panic. If, say, your zombie hydra is in the way of them fleeing, they cower.

Even better, since you're a Dread Witch, even those pretentious asses who serve weaklings like Heironeous and say they're fearless have to run away from you. :smallamused:

Edit:
Alternatively, Cloistered Cleric 3/Walker in the Waste 10/Divine PrC 7 (Make sure you get the sand domain).

You now have Cha to saves, Cha to HP, Cha to turning, D12 hitdie, full BAB, are undead with some nice abilities, and have 18/20 cleric casting. Even better if you can pick up Dynamic Priest, so your spellcasting is Cha-based too.

[Wookie-ranger]

Oh, this just screams for Dread Necro + Dread Witch. Go DN7/DW5/DN8, as suggested here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214212) in the Scarecrow Build, and either be an Illumian or use Southern Magician to DMM Persist Aura of Terror. See if you can dip Bard (possibly with Devoted Performer feat) to pick up Doomspeak. You are now a walking debuffer: come too close, your enemies panic. If, say, your zombie hydra is in the way of them fleeing, they cower.

Even better, since you're a Dread Witch, even those pretentious asses who serve weaklings like Heironeous and say they're fearless have to run away from you. :smallamused:

good idea going Dread Witch, its a fun fear-build.
Illumian is strong and can be fun; not my personal favorite though (for flavor reasons).
For a DN i like to run Lesser Aasimar and potentially with the Spark template. lots of PR potential.

[PowerGamer]

I'm lookin a maybe a dread necro because of how it can fit a possible backstory. But rogue is still a no.

[PowerGamer]

Ok finally got a friend to lend me heroes of horror and looked through it. Here's what I'm thinking,

Paladin (tyranny) 20/ Fighter 2/ Dread Necro 8/ Dreadwitch 5/... something else...

But I don't think we are going to level 20... the fighter is there for feats and back story.
Comments?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ok finally got a friend to lend me heroes of horror and looked through it. Here's what I'm thinking,

Paladin (tyranny) 20/ Fighter 2/ Dread Necro 8/ Dreadwitch 5/... something else...

But I don't think we are going to level 20... the fighter is there for feats and back story.
Comments?

More than four levels of Paladin of Tyranny is a complete and total waste. If you want a class that will actually provide a benefit, go Pal4/Crusader 16, or if you desperately need feats, FIghter2/Pal4/Crusader14 on one side

If you don't want ToB, then I suggest to you Duskblade. Channeling your spells through your attacks is nice synergy. You can also channel your spells from DN, like say Enervation.

For the other, the first rule of multiclassing is: Thou Shalt Not Lose Caster Levels. No Fighter. That goes on the other side, if anywhere.

As far as the rest of it... there's nothing wrong with more Dread Necro, it actually has class features which are useful, not to mention significantly increasing your minion HD pool.

[PowerGamer]

I keep hearing about duskblades. What books are duskblade and crusader in? How are 5+ levels of paladin a waste? I get inflict damage spells

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I keep hearing about duskblades. What books are duskblade and crusader in? How are 5+ levels of paladin a waste? I get inflict damage spells

5+ levels in Paladin are a waste because you get Inflict spells from Dread Necromancer.

Duskblade is in PhB II, I believe. Crusaders are in Tome of Battle.

[Tokuhara]

Now, I'm liable to get the old "Monk Sucks" screamed at me by several playgrounders, but monk CAN work, if you play it close to the vest...

First off, Serenity from the Dragon Magazine Compendium (the good stuff from 3.5 Dragon Magazine WotC liked so much that they made a book out of it) is a superlative feat. Turns Charisma into Paladin's new favorite Dump Stat (Lay on Hands, Infernal Grace, etc. now run off of your casting stat.)

Worship an Elder Evil to get bonus Vile Feats, among other nice perks, which may or may not include a personal parking space in the Nine Hells.

With Monk, take the ACF in PHBII that drops Flurry of Misses in favor of the single strike, which probably is far more effective than it's replaced ability.

With Monk, take a few levels to get the few decent class features and grab levels in Ardent and then Tashalatora. I know, it's uncreative. Get over it.

Now, you can zip across the battlefield (making your mount little more than a useless joke), smite those goody two-shoes, and generally laugh maniacally as you destroy teddy bear factories with YOUR THOUGHTS!!! Welcome to the puppy-kicking baby-eating demon-worshiping side of Monk. Enjoy.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Going for a Fear/Intimidate shtick, with the best tricks possible at the starting level of 7th:

Dread Necromancer 20// Cleric 1/ Fighter 4/ Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) of Tyranny 3/ Dread Witch 5/ Fighter 5/ Contemplative 2
All of your prestige classes advance your Cleric casting. Your Cleric domain is Inquisition, see below. Get a Ghostly Visage (FF) for your familiar, it should always be possessing you, and during combat it can manifest over your face to use its paralyzing gaze attack every round.

Recommended Feats: Dreadful Wrath (PGtF), Ability Focus: Dreadful Wrath (MM), Tomb-Tainted Soul (LM, only if not a Necropolitan), Versatile Spellcaster (RotD), Divine Defiance (FC2), Extend/Persist/DMM: Persist (CD), Melee Weapon Mastery (PH2), Imperious Command (DotU), Battle Caster (CA), Power Attack, Practiced Spellcaster: Cleric (CA/CD), Extra Turning, Craft Rod. Also, the Never Outnumbered skill trick (CS) is highly recommended.

Alternate Class Features, Substitution Levels, etc.:
Dread Necromancer: Divine Magician (CM), it's specifically allowed to Clerics and Paladins but every book is published under the assumption that your only other books are the Core 3, so any (base) class that gets a Turn/Rebuke Undead ability should be eligible for it.
Cleric: Divine Magician (CM), selecting Shield, See Invisibility, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, and Ray Deflection (SC).
Fighter: Physical Prowess (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) (free bonuses!); Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) (rename Big-Bad-Bully and remove the association to an organization if necessary).
Prestige Paladin of Tyranny: As per the sidebar on page 71 of Unearthed Arcana, you should get the unique Paladin (of Tyranny) spells added to your Cleric spell list, subject to DM approval. Rhino's Rush from the Spell Compendium is probably the one spell that you really want to push for. I'd replace the special mount with the Charging Smite ACF (PH2).
Contemplative: This is only here as filler, you can get pretty much anything else that continues advancing your Cleric spellcasting, or whatever else you want, it doesn't really matter.

Divine Counterspell with your full Dread Necromancer progression is quite good, especially with the Inquisition domain and enough Kn: Religion ranks for the extra bonus. Add on another source of Rebuke Undead (your Cleric level), and the feat Divine Defiance, and you can spend a Rebuke use to (Divine) Counterspell as an immediate action. Definitely fitting for an inquisitor-type character.

Most of your Divine Magician spells should be DMM: Persisted, along with Divine Power and whatever else you want to last all day. You can use Versatile Spellcaster to spend two Dread Necromancer spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher, which means you can spend DN slots to cast Cleric spells you know using your DN caster level and your Cha bonus for the DCs. Note that you only know Cleric spells of a level you can cast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#newDivineSpells). You can use Versatile Spellcaster to put Magic Vestment on your armor and your Shield spell, and Greater Magic Weapon on your primary weapon, using your Dread Necromancer caster level for its bonus and duration.

Zhentarim Soldier 9 comes a bit late in this build, but it's particularly useful with Imperious Command. Never Outnumbered with Imperious Command is extremely useful right at the start of combat, especially since making everyone Shaken gives them a -2 to save vs. your Ghostly Visage's gaze attack. Dreadful Wrath is just downright good, especially since multiple fear effects are cumulative, such as using Intimidate with it. Shaken opponents will become Frightened and attempt to flee, Frightened opponents become Panicked.

Your items starting out should include some decent nonmagical armor that you can cast in (Mithral Breastplate, or Mithral Full Plate with Battle Caster), a masterwork two-handed weapon, a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend, and as many Night Sticks as you can get. Also get a standard Strand of Prayer Beads which has had the Bead of Smiting removed, it only costs 9,000 gp per DMG pricing (primary source), and remember that the Bead of Karma's effect will apply to your DN casting as well. Don't forget that you'll be able to Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon your armor/weapon and Shield spell pretty soon, so it would be a waste to make them magical.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Going for a Fear/Intimidate shtick, with the best tricks possible at the starting level of 7th:

Dread Necromancer 20// Cleric 1/ Fighter 4/ Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) of Tyranny 3/ Dread Witch 5/ Fighter 5/ Contemplative 2
All of your prestige classes advance your Cleric casting. Your Cleric domain is Inquisition, see below. Get a Ghostly Visage (FF) for your familiar, it should always be possessing you, and during combat it can manifest over your face to use its paralyzing gaze attack every round.Waaay too complicated, and largely unnecessary.

DN15/Dread Witch5//Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade/Duskblade/Crusader


Recommended Feats: Dreadful Wrath (PGtF), Ability Focus: Dreadful Wrath (MM), Tomb-Tainted Soul (LM, only if not a Necropolitan), Versatile Spellcaster (RotD), Divine Defiance (FC2), Extend/Persist/DMM: Persist (CD), Melee Weapon Mastery (PH2), Imperious Command (DotU), Battle Caster (CA), Power Attack, Practiced Spellcaster: Cleric (CA/CD), Extra Turning, Craft Rod. Also, the Never Outnumbered skill trick (CS) is highly recommended.Again, waaaay too overly complicated.

Southern Magician, Extend Spell, Persist Spell, DMM: Persist. Then there's that feat that lets you double your emanation. Persist Aura of Terror. Why bother spending actions on something you can make happen for free just by getting within 30' of them? Sure, you can also use Divine Defiance from there, if you want to. You'll still have piles of turn attempts.

All of the intimidate stuff? Completely unnecessary. Clutters up your action economy.


Alternate Class Features, Substitution Levels, etc.:
Dread Necromancer: Divine Magician (CM), it's specifically allowed to Clerics and Paladins but every book is published under the assumption that your only other books are the Core 3, so any (base) class that gets a Turn/Rebuke Undead ability should be eligible for it.
Cleric: Divine Magician (CM), selecting Shield, See Invisibility, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, and Ray Deflection (SC).
Fighter: Physical Prowess (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) (free bonuses!); Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) (rename Big-Bad-Bully and remove the association to an organization if necessary).
Prestige Paladin of Tyranny: As per the sidebar on page 71 of Unearthed Arcana, you should get the unique Paladin (of Tyranny) spells added to your Cleric spell list, subject to DM approval. Rhino's Rush from the Spell Compendium is probably the one spell that you really want to push for. I'd replace the special mount with the Charging Smite ACF (PH2).
Contemplative: This is only here as filler, you can get pretty much anything else that continues advancing your Cleric spellcasting, or whatever else you want, it doesn't really matter.Is also completely unnecessary. You get 2x your Cha to saves, and can channel spells into melee attacks. You know, in addition to making any opponent within 30' piss themselves just by trying to close.


Divine Counterspell with your full Dread Necromancer progression is quite good, especially with the Inquisition domain and enough Kn: Religion ranks for the extra bonus. Add on another source of Rebuke Undead (your Cleric level), and the feat Divine Defiance, and you can spend a Rebuke use to (Divine) Counterspell as an immediate action. Definitely fitting for an inquisitor-type character.Assuming he wants to be an inquisitor-type character.


Most of your Divine Magician spells should be DMM: Persisted, along with Divine Power and whatever else you want to last all day. You can use Versatile Spellcaster to spend two Dread Necromancer spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher, which means you can spend DN slots to cast Cleric spells you know using your DN caster level and your Cha bonus for the DCs. Note that you only know Cleric spells of a level you can cast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#newDivineSpells). You can use Versatile Spellcaster to put Magic Vestment on your armor and your Shield spell, and Greater Magic Weapon on your primary weapon, using your Dread Necromancer caster level for its bonus and duration. Versatile Spellcaster is a feat with a rather notorious reputation, and not suggested for actual play.


Zhentarim Soldier 9 comes a bit late in this build, but it's particularly useful with Imperious Command. Never Outnumbered with Imperious Command is extremely useful right at the start of combat, especially since making everyone Shaken gives them a -2 to save vs. your Ghostly Visage's gaze attack. Dreadful Wrath is just downright good, especially since multiple fear effects are cumulative, such as using Intimidate with it. Shaken opponents will become Frightened and attempt to flee, Frightened opponents become Panicked. Or not even bother to make an action and make anyone entering your fear aura Panicked.


Your items starting out should include some decent nonmagical armor that you can cast in (Mithral Breastplate, or Mithral Full Plate with Battle Caster), a masterwork two-handed weapon, a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend, and as many Night Sticks as you can get. Also get a standard Strand of Prayer Beads which has had the Bead of Smiting removed, it only costs 9,000 gp per DMG pricing (primary source), and remember that the Bead of Karma's effect will apply to your DN casting as well. Don't forget that you'll be able to Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon your armor/weapon and Shield spell pretty soon, so it would be a waste to make them magical.

Cracksticks I can agree with, assuming the GM lets them stack. Most won't, since it's a bonus from the same source. But that's neither here nor there. Bead of Karma is a good idea. Armor is pointless, use Mirror Image for better miss chances.

[PowerGamer]

Wow, that was an overwhelming post there. Sorry to say it but our GM has some real life problems and now isn't GMing for us :( So i dont know if I'll ever be able to use this character due to a lack of game to play it for. But thank you for all you help.

[Wookie-ranger]

If you build it, they (the game) will come!:smallbiggrin: