Monster Manual Species Conversion

[willpell]

I'm aware that the rules in the Monster Manual which supposedly allow you to play a monster aren't very good. I'm aware that there's an entire book on the topic (Savage Species) which I really ought to read to get at least some of my answers. But ultimately I'm a busy guy and I'd like to cut to the chase, so I'm crowdsourcing. (This word is trending on the social network along with other cutting-edge buzzwords. There, have fun Google.)

So naturally I couldn't start with anything easy like a single monster. What I've got is a Kobold (well, IMO it's not really a kobold but it's what the 3rd Edition calls a kobold so for this purpose I'll go with it) who died and was reincarnated by a druid, and by fiat he came back as a Blackscale Lizardfolk (Monster Manual 3). At the time I made this decision, I looked at their 4 hit dice and their +3 level adjustment, and went "Oh, okay, he takes 3 levels of the Blackscale Lizardfolk monster class and 1 level of Warrior or Barbarian or something, and that means he's a level 4 character despite only having 1 class level. Then I reread the section on ECL and saw that it's actually supposed to be the LA plus the hit dice. But hit dice are the equivalent of class levels, so how is that fair? I've been trying to make sense of it ever since.

My plan is to have this two-species abomination go adventuring with my Level 5 players (as a DMPC, mostly a bodyguard for the frail Drow Psion). The Blackscale has +8 strength, +7 natural armor and a Claw/Claw/Bite, so it's certainly fair that it should be worth somewhat more than a standard character of the same level, but I'm really annoyed with the way the HD+ECL thing means it's impossible to play anything less than a "level 7" Blackscale. I want him to start gaining levels of Ranger as soon as possible, so is it possible for me to "sell back" some of his innate features and have him come out as a fairly weak and frail example of his species, ending up with about 4 levels worth of innate power plus one ranger level?

I'm also having a hard time figuring out how the Skills should work for this weird plot device I'm doing. Supposedly part of the point of the 3.5 rules revision was to make skills consistent between monsters and player characters, but it seems to be something of a work in progress. The Blackscale listed in MM3 has +4 Spot, +5 Balance, +10 Swim and +12 Jump. The rules say he gets +4 on their Balance, Swim and Jump due to their tails, and they have a +0 bonus on Dexterity and Wisdom and a +4 bonus on Strength. So removing the Strength and the racial bonus, he appears to have 4 ranks in Spot, 1 in Balance, 2 in Swim and 4 in Jump, for a total of 11 ranks (all purchased for 1 skill point since skills that appear in a monster's statblock are assumed to be class skills for his monster class). With a -1 Intelligence penalty, if we assume the monster class gets x2 skills, he should have gained 4 skill points at "level" 1, then 1 for each subsequent "level", presumably 3 since he has 4 HD. That would only be 7; if he didn't have the -1 Intelligence penalty it would be 14 instead. So how the dickens did he end up with 11 ranks of Skills? Add to that the fact that this is a kobold mind in the gargantuan's body, and I don't know if he should be using the lizard's skills at all, except for the racial bonuses. I am assuming that he applies his Attribute bonuses, changing the final Spot total since a Kobold is less wise than a Blackscale, and that he gets an untrained check based on his attributes for every Skill that an adventurer can used untrained.

All this just because I decided the Blackscale looked cool.....

[123456789blaaa]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928

this guide should tell you everthing you need to know though personally I would reccomend playing a 0 LA race and just fluffing it differently.

[SillySymphonies]

Blackscale lizardfolk characters possess the following racial traits.
- +8 Strength, +4 Constitution, -2 Intelligence (minimum 3), -4 Charisma.
- Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class, -1 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 Bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
- Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet.
- A blackscale lizardfolk's base land speed is 40 feet.
- Darkvision out to 60 feet.
- Racial Hit Dice: A blackscale lizardfolk begins with four levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 4d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +4, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +4 and Will +4.
- Racial Skills: A backscale lizardfolk's monstrous humanoid levels give its skill points equal to 7 × (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Balance, Jump, Spot, and Swim. Blackscale lizardfolk have a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Jump and Swim checks.
- Racial Feats: A blackscale lizardfolk’s monstrous humanoid levels give it two feats.
- Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A blackscale lizardfolk is automatically proficient with simple weapons and the greatclub.
- +7 natural armor bonus.
- Natural Weapons: 2 claws (1d6) and bite (1d6).
- Special Qualities (see above): Resistance to acid 5, hold breath.
- Automatic Languages: Draconic. Bonus Languages: Common.
- Favored Class: Barbarian.
- Level adjustement +3.

That being said, the reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) spell doesn't work like that!
Ignoring the fact that kobolds have the humanoid type and blackscale lizardfolk the monstrous humanoid type, the reincarnation nets the following:
- +12 Str (-4 kobold penalty eliminated; +8 blackscale lizardfolk bonus).
- -2 Dex (+2 kobold bonus eliminated).
- +6 Con (-2 kobold penalty eliminated; +4 blackscale lizardfolk bonus).
- Large size.
- 40 feet base land speed.
- Darkvision out to 60 feet.
- A +4 racial bonus on Balance, Jump and Swim checks.
- +7 natural armor bonus.
- Natural Weapons: 2 claws (1d6) and bite (1d6).
- Special Qualities (see above): Resistance to acid 5, hold breath.

[willpell]

Blackscale lizardfolk characters possess the following racial traits

Thanks! I've redesigned him as a straight Blackscale with no class levels, but used 25-point buy for his Attributes so he came out a lot smarter and more agile than the book's strictly average specimen. He's functionally level 7 even without any Ranger levels, but c'est la vie. I still think it shouldn't be impossible to reduce some of his benefits in order to get a lower-ECL version, but am too lazy to bother.

Hm, if I want to give him starting-character Wealth By Level, should I treat him as level 0 (his class levels), level 4 (his Hit Dice) or level 7 (his effective level for experience purposes)?


That being said, the reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) spell doesn't work like that!

1. How So? I see nothing in the spell's description which outright prohibits a nonstandard species as the output; sure it's not on the table, but I treat all the "random encounter" and similar tables in D&D books as suggestions rather than hard and fast rules, if only because they don't account for subsequent publications (and more because they're boring). Nowhere does it say the output species must be humanoid; it simply lists those as the only examples.

2. Anyway even if it is illegal I handwaved it for Rule of Cool reasons; I'm the DM after all. The rules are only there to give the game a sense of logic and consistency; breaking them is always an option if it makes the story better rather than worse.


Ignoring the fact that kobolds have the humanoid type and blackscale lizardfolk the monstrous humanoid type....

I regard the classification of some humanoid races as "monstrous" as pointlessly arbitrary. It might be sensible in some cases, but since normal Lizardfolk are Humanoid, I say that Blackscales should be too since they're close relatives. Them being one size bigger shouldn't be any more of a distinction than Halflings being one size smaller than humans. More than one size and yeah, at that point it starts to become problematic, which is why I'm sorta okay with Giant being its own type (that and the mythological associations of giants as a primordial race). Really, looking over the Monster Manual I list of monstrous humanoids, all except the Minotaur, most Yuan-Ti and possibly the Derro (they don't have a picture so I can't easily remember what they're like) are either not actually humanoid (having wings or horse legs) or have special magical abilities (petrification, shapeshifting, blindsight, water breathing). So I'd say what's "monstrous" doesn't seem to be about size but rather about nonstandard abilities, and so the Blackscale definitely doesn't seem like he should be any more monstrous than the standard Lizardfolk.

[kardar233]

Arbitrariness of the "Monstrous" classification aside, you're kicking the guy where it hurts by making him a standard Humanoid, as Humanoids only get 3/4 BAB and a smaller hit die, plus they're vulnerable to certain Humanoid-only effects.

The benefits of said Lizardfolk are definitely not worth +3 LA. In fact, the penalty of taking 4HD of Monstrous Humanoid rather than class levels is pretty nasty by itself; IIRC, MH HD are basically NPC Warrior levels. Depending on the optimization level of your group, I'd stick to just 1 LA (maybe just buy it off immediately) or just waive the LA entirely. It's not like he's playing an Inspired or something.

[willpell]

The benefits of said Lizardfolk are definitely not worth +3 LA. In fact, the penalty of taking 4HD of Monstrous Humanoid rather than class levels is pretty nasty by itself; IIRC, MH HD are basically NPC Warrior levels. Depending on the optimization level of your group, I'd stick to just 1 LA (maybe just buy it off immediately) or just waive the LA entirely. It's not like he's playing an Inspired or something.

Well the relevant benefits are +7 Natural Armor, +8 Strength, and Claw/Claw/Bite, those are certainly worth something. But the fact that the Warrior was intentionally designed to suck has always bugged me. I'd consider rebuilding him on a Fighter chassis, but that would mean increasing his hit dice to d10s. Perhaps Ranger would work; it gives an absurd increase in Skill Points but that doesn't bug me too much, because I thought it was weird that the Blackscale lives in the wilderness and is scary-looking but has no Survival or Intimidate. That plus a few cross-class skills to represent his attempt at integrating could do a reasonable job of it. As to his innate powers, there's a race in the Planar Handbook which has +2 natch armor and is LA +0, perhaps some reptile-specific book has a Feat which could up the armor some more, but I'm completely lost as to how to handle the natural attacks.

[SillySymphonies]

That being said, the reincarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) spell doesn't work like that!
1. How So?
The reincarnate spell is rather explicit in what abilities of the new form are gained:

It retains any class abilities, feats, or skill ranks it formerly possessed. Its class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and hit points are unchanged. Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores depend partly on the new body. First eliminate the subject’s racial adjustments (since it is no longer of his previous race) and then apply the adjustments found below to its remaining ability scores. The subject’s level (or Hit Dice) is reduced by 1. (...) The reincarnated creature gains all abilities associated with its new form, including forms of movement and speeds, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary abilities, and the like, but it doesn’t automatically speak the language of the new form.
Racial HD and racial languages are not gained through the reincarnate spell. Note that this may cause balance issues: gaining various racial bonuses without having to 'pay' the racial HD or LA.

[willpell]

One thing I still don't understand about LA. If I'm a 1st-level character with a +1 LA, I'm the equivalent of a 2nd-level character. A 2nd-level character who's gaining his 3rd level starts out with 1000 XP and needs to earn 2000 more to hit a total of 3000 in order to level up. So the moment I come into existence as an Aasimar Paladin 1 or whatever, do I have 0 XP or 1000, and do I need 2000 more or 3000 more?

The possible answers:
A: I have 1000 XP and I need 2000 more (the happy option and the one I suspect is correct).
B: I have 0 XP and I need 2000 more (functionally the same as A but a bit more annoying to bookkeep since I don't line up with the same current and target XP numbers as normal characters).
C: I have 0 XP and I need 3000 more (also known as "don't even bother trying to play a character with an LA").
D: I have 1000 XP and I need 3000 more (almost certainly wrong but listed for completeness).

[SillySymphonies]

A: I have 1000 XP and I need 2000 more.


If I'm a 1st-level character with a +1 LA,

Then you're not a 1st-level character!
Effective character level (ECL) = racial hit dice (RHD) + class levels + level adjustment (LA). ECL determines XP, wealth by level et cetera.
So an aasimar paladin 1 is effectively a 2nd-level character with only 1 class level.

I hope that clears things up?

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you are interested in playing a monster, I suggest you read Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928), which deals with Monster classes.

[willpell]

A: I have 1000 XP and I need 2000 more.

Okay, that's what I thought and hoped. So treat a just-made character with X hit dice and a +Y level adjustment as having the same starting and target experience as any character who is effectively Level X+Y. Thanks.


If you are interested in playing a monster, I suggest you read Urpriest's Monstrous Monster Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928), which deals with Monster classes.

I did - well, much of it at least. It's a pretty dense read by my standards and I kinda zoned out through some of the mathier parts. I do better with colorfully illustrated step-by-step examples. (Actually The Giant could do an excellent job of cartooning the process if he had any reason to.)