Dodging While Pinned

[NeoSeraphi]

Does this bother anyone else? The Pinned condition of grappling, which for all intents and purposes is basically just putting all of your weight onto the enemy creature to keep them from moving or speaking, as well as applying enough pressure to deal them damage, doesn't inflict the helpless condition. I don't know why, seems like it would be just as constricting as rope, but whatever. Clearly WotC doesn't want grappling to be awesome, that's their business.

My issue is that, by RAW, if you pin a monk or a rogue, since that character is not helpless, he still gains the benefits of evasion, even though he can't move. It's irritating as all get out. If I grab a pansy rogue and pin him down under my 18 Strength, and my dragonfire adept buddy comes over and blasts us both with fire (which I am immune to thanks to Endure Exposure), the rogue should not just get to brush that off. Yes, I know that Evasion doesn't technically involve moving from your square, but since you can't use it while helpless it clearly does involve some form of movement.

So...there. Rant done. I guess the only solution here is to houserule this one and hope that D&D Next fixes it, if they bring evasion back.

[tahu88810]

I've always ruled it as this, and wasn't even aware that it did not work that way.

[Spiryt]

Maybe he just still manage to improve his position enough hide from the worst heat beneath your body....

With some creativity, you can explain a lot, sometimes it indeed will be kind of pointless though. :smallwink:

[Hiro Protagonest]

When hit by something that allows a reflex save, rogues and other guys with Evasion get a random chance of entering Evasion SpaceTM(R)(C).

[NeoSeraphi]

When hit by something that allows a reflex save, rogues and other guys with Evasion get a random chance of entering Evasion SpaceTM(R)(C).

Unless they're tied down, or weighed down by medium or heavy armor, but not when they're forcibly held down, apparently.

[SilverLeaf167]

I've made up a certain houserule:
If you succeed on a Reflex save against an effect that covers an area (for example, Fireball), your character is moved to the edge of the area or behind appropriate cover, in a direction you choose. This doesn't technically cost any movement. If you cannot move outside the area or into cover due to your movement or space being restricted, you automatically fail the Reflex save.

This means that a rogue, or any other character, cannot Evade while standing in place or in a really narrow corridor. It also allows that cool kind of explosion-dodging people always do in fantasy (and action movies), which is otherwise hard to do in D&D. Any problems haven't really arisen yet; and if they do, well, I want this to be a sort of verisimilitude booster and cool thing for characters to do. If it turns out too annoying, I'll do my best to fix it.

[NeoSeraphi]

I've made up a certain houserule:
If you succeed on a Reflex save against an effect that covers an area (for example, Fireball), your character is moved to the edge of the area or behind appropriate cover, in a direction you choose. This doesn't technically cost any movement. If you cannot move outside the area or into cover due to your movement or space being restricted, you automatically fail the Reflex save.

This means that a rogue, or any other character, cannot Evade while standing in place or in a really narrow corridor. It also allows that cool kind of explosion-dodging people always do in fantasy (and action movies), which is otherwise hard to do in D&D. Any problems haven't really arisen yet; and if they do, well, I want this to be a sort of verisimilitude booster and cool thing for characters to do. If it turns out too annoying, I'll do my best to fix it.

What happens if the Area of Effect is larger than the character's base land speed, such as a meteor swarm centered on a halfling rogue?

[Curmudgeon]

I've made up a certain houserule:
If you succeed on a Reflex save against an effect that covers an area (for example, Fireball), your character is moved to the edge of the area or behind appropriate cover, in a direction you choose.
Do you make up special rules for mettle as well as evasion? Like having the character projectile vomit when they ingest a poison, or fail if their stomach doesn't have any recent contents to dilute the toxin? If you don't have similar rules then you're just screwing over the Rogues.

[SilverLeaf167]

What happens if the Area of Effect is larger than the character's base land speed, such as a meteor swarm centered on a halfling rogue?


Do you make up special rules for mettle as well as evasion? Like having the character projectile vomit when they ingest a poison, or fail if their stomach doesn't have any recent contents to dilute the toxin? If you don't have similar rules then you're just screwing over the Rogues.
As I said, this hasn't been in effect for too long. It has come to play a few times though, and so far they seem to like it. I'm not quite sure what would happen in those situations...
I think that if the character is incapable of moving that far, I might settle for them just moving as far as possible, as if to try and avoid the full brunt of the attack.
Nobody really has mettle in the group, so I haven't really thought of that. If anyone ever complains about the rule, I'll reconsider it... it's really a prototype ruling of sorts.

[Flickerdart]

Saving throws have nothing to do with actually moving - otherwise, a resistance bonus from a cloak wouldn't do anything against a fireball. The rogue's skills just let him avoid the damage from the explosion. That's all there is. Hell, if he's pinned, he's already on the ground, which is a great place to be when explosions start happening around you, plus he has a guy between him and the explosion, which is also a good thing to have.

[NeoSeraphi]

Saving throws have nothing to do with actually moving - otherwise, a resistance bonus from a cloak wouldn't do anything against a fireball. The rogue's skills just let him avoid the damage from the explosion. That's all there is. Hell, if he's pinned, he's already on the ground, which is a great place to be when explosions start happening around you, plus he has a guy between him and the explosion, which is also a good thing to have.

I'm not saying you can't make Reflex saves while pinned, I'm just saying that you shouldn't gain the benefits of the evasion class feature while pinned, which I believe is justified based on the rogue not being able to use evasion while wearing medium armor. If 30 pounds of metal weighing you down is enough to keep you from evading, then 200 lbs of orc crushing you and purposefully holding you in place should definitely prevent it.

[Flickerdart]

I'm not saying you can't make Reflex saves while pinned, I'm just saying that you shouldn't gain the benefits of the evasion class feature while pinned, which I believe is justified based on the rogue not being able to use evasion while wearing medium armor. If 30 pounds of metal weighing you down is enough to keep you from evading, then 200 lbs of orc crushing you and purposefully holding you in place should definitely prevent it.
Nope. Because then the orc takes the brunt of the explosion while you use your awesome Rogue skills to have been pinned down in such a way as to avoid damage.

What's less plausible, the fact that the rogue can avoid damage from the dragonfire adept, or that a guy can breathe fire from his face with no harm to himself, violating the laws of conservation of energy in the process?

[NeoSeraphi]

What's less plausible, the fact that the rogue can avoid damage from the dragonfire adept, or that a guy can breathe fire from his face with no harm to himself, violating the laws of conservation of energy in the process?

Breath weapons are supernatural, they don't follow any normal laws. Evasion is an extraordinary ability, which violates the laws of physics, but still. Okay, say that a dragon, an actual dragon, was the one pinning the rogue rather than the orc. A 2000 pound adult red dragon, who breathed fire point blank into the rogue's face, while simultaneously crushing him with its claws. The rogue's grapple check is +13, and the dragon's grapple check is +40. Even if the rogue rolls a natural 20 and the dragon rolls a natural 1, the rogue can't move. And yet it somehow "evades" the dragon's breath weapon.

[Spiryt]

Saving throws have nothing to do with actually moving - otherwise, a resistance bonus from a cloak wouldn't do anything against a fireball. The rogue's skills just let him avoid the damage from the explosion. That's all there is. Hell, if he's pinned, he's already on the ground, which is a great place to be when explosions start happening around you, plus he has a guy between him and the explosion, which is also a good thing to have.

That raises interesting questions though - being hopelessly outgrappled can mean that you're not on the ground either.... What if opponent choses to grab your waist and Karelin lift you high, or generally is holding you completely exposed, cranking your neck, pulling hair, etc.

http://cdn2.cagepotato.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/88kg-Rd.1_RousiimarPalharesDanSchon-1.gif

Obviously this pondering can only lead to headache, but still.... :smallwink:

[Flickerdart]

Breath weapons are supernatural, they don't follow any normal laws. Evasion is an extraordinary ability, which violates the laws of physics, but still. Okay, say that a dragon, an actual dragon, was the one pinning the rogue rather than the orc. A 2000 pound adult red dragon, who breathed fire point blank into the rogue's face, while simultaneously crushing him with its claws. The rogue's grapple check is +13, and the dragon's grapple check is +40. Even if the rogue rolls a natural 20 and the dragon rolls a natural 1, the rogue can't move. And yet it somehow "evades" the dragon's breath weapon.
There is no "but still". Both kinds of abilities can ignore whatever natural laws the writers feel like violating.

[NeoSeraphi]

There is no "but still". Both kinds of abilities can ignore whatever natural laws the writers feel like violating.

I don't see why being tied up and helpless or being weighed down by heavy armor should prevent you from doing what you could otherwise do if you're being held down by a dragon. That just doesn't make any sense to me.

Roguespace or no, it's just irritating.

[Flickerdart]

Bindings and armour are a lot more form-fitting than the ginormous claws of a dragon.

[Fitz10019]

...A 2000 pound adult red dragon...

Anyone scratching a 2000 pound dragon is ridiculous. Your "proud hater" sig marks this discussion as moot.

[NeoSeraphi]

Anyone scratching a 2000 pound dragon is ridiculous.

"Scratching"? :smallconfused: I never said anything about scratching dragons. What are you talking about?


Your "proud hater" sig marks this discussion as moot.

I was using a rogue as the choice for this, but the evasion class feature is not restricted just to the rogue, nor is my grievance with the rogue being able to use it. Replace "rogue" with "monk" or "rogue" with "ranger" and the problem remains the same.

[Spiryt]

Bindings and armour are a lot more form-fitting than the ginormous claws of a dragon.

:smallconfused:

Well, no one would seriously try to move around inside his won armor though, only with it around.... So this comparison is off.

TS is right, like many things in 3.5, Evasion descriptions are simply loosing any sort of sense in some situations.

If someone cares about it or not is personal preference, obviously.

[Flickerdart]

:smallconfused:

Well, no one would seriously try to move around inside his won armor though, only with it around.... So this comparison is off.

Yes, but while you are moving with it, it hinders your movement, and doesn't provide protection from the scorching heat. The claws of the dragon, however, do, because they're not part of you - and your Rogue training allowed you to get pinned in such a way as to gain maximal cover from them.

[Slipperychicken]

My issue is that, by RAW, if you pin a monk or a rogue, since that character is not helpless, he still gains the benefits of evasion, even though he can't move

A Pinned character is still squirming to maneuver himself (or whatever Evasion meant he was doing), but not leave his square. That's why he can still make Grapple checks to escape the pin; He's not totally immobile (if he were, that would be represented by the helpless condition).


From a gameplay perspective, Pinned=Helpless would be very silly and unfair. Imagine your players dog-piling the Big Bad and cutting his throat. And imagine all his minions doing the same to the players. That would be lame.

[Lord_Gareth]

Look, either you can accept that Roguespace is where they're going (and further that Roguespace = Hammerspace, which is why the weapons pulled from it are so devastating - they're made up of tightly compressed Rogues) or you can say that they're diverting the grapple to use their enemy as cover. Either way, interpreting the rule to strip the character(s) of their Evasion is giving already sub-par classes a kick to the testicles. It doesn't matter if it 'doesn't make sense'. D&D has never made any damn sense. It's high time the community got over that and moved on to the having fun part.