[3.x Savage Species] Deal with the devil

[333]

So, my DM mentioned that after our current campaign runs its course, he would like to run an evil(or at the very least a Monster) campaign. I was flipping through the Savage species book(Which he said we would choose our races from) and saw Succubus/Incubus as a race/class, and thought it'd be fun to play an Incubus who used his charm as a weapon of mass destruction. Why kill the mayor when you can convince the entire village to do it for you? But as I started to ponder ideas, I thought of what demons and devils are famous for, Faustian deals. So, I started wondering, is there a way to get an ability which captures souls, and then activates a greater wish or miracle like effect?

Ideally the effect would work similar to casting greater wish to grant the target's desire, than casting a pair of contingency spells, the first being similar to a delayed death spell(One that instantly kills the victim with no save) which would go of in a set number of years. The second would trap the victims soul in a way that my Demon would be able to collect it, regardless of distance or plane, and would be triggered by the victims death. If this were possible without the experience cost even better. You will win the internet if you find a way to collect the soul right there without killing them, and then putting the ill gotten soul to use some how.

Any way to get something like that rather low level, while still keeping an Incubus feel, and having enough combat ability to be useful in a small party? (I have no idea what my friends characters would be) I would Imagine there would be something in the book of vile darkness or maybe the Fiendish Codexes... If you find something, please list the book its from and the page number if you can.

[Urpriest]

For selling souls as something Succubus-y, the best choice is probably Fiend of Corruption, a prestige class in the back of the Fiend Folio. It's not really available at low level, but since you guys are all playing stuff from Savage Species you'll probably start fairly high level anyway.

There are rules for Faustian Bargains in Fiendish Codex II, but it's more from the player side than the temptor's side.

By the way, be aware that Succubi changed some between 3.0 and 3.5, if you want to use the progression in Savage Species you'll need to update it. In general if you feel unclear about how to play a monster, the handbook in my sig is a good place to look.

Edit: Harvester Devils (FCII) are canonically able to perform Faustian Pacts, they have 9RHD and +4 LA.

[333]

I will check out your link, and when I get the chance will look up that class as well. I'm interested in seeing the harvester demon, but it would have to be rather impressive to lure me away from the incubus. Any other details you can share while I try to hunt it down?

EDIT: Wow... fiend of Corruption seems perfect for what I need after one quick read. I'll hafta look over the requirements again and see how many incubus levels I need to meet them, but it seems like the two were made for each other.

However, wish still requires the XP cost, which kinda sucks when I was going to grant wishes like there was no tomorrow. Anyone know of a way to avoid the XP cost? I suppose I could max out Knowledg(Religion) and use the BoVD sacrifice rules and hope for the dark craft XP and just do that in my spare time, although that would be Fiend of Blasphemy territory. Of course, with the charisma an incubus is sure to have it shouldn't be to hard to convince the nice townsfolk to convert to my "new religion." ofcourse, it'd be even better if I could get a cult of monstrous humanoids started, and have them kidnap priests of good deities, and then preform a few sacrifices between adventures. This character is looking like its gonna be a fun experiment in the art of, "How evil can I be before the Dungeon Master throws a holy book at me?" You know what would make me smile? If I could preform one sacrifice that met as many bonuses on the sacrifice table as is possible (Including "Truly Willing", "Priest of an opposing deity", and "Tortured for at least a day before" how much corruption would that take, and at the same time, trying to keep the soul just pure enough that they don't lose their cleric abilities *evil grin*) any who, anyone else have other methods for gaining wish like abilities without XP cost? or any ideas at all regarding optimizing an incubus? Should I make use of my charisma and dip into sorcerer for the magic? Should I be a cleric of a demon prince? or should I be pure Incubus with only fiendish PrCs?

[The_Snark]

You can't actually dip out of your savage progression (unless your DM houserules that you can); you have to finish taking all 12 levels of incubus before moving on to anything else.

I don't know of any ways to get XP-free wishes that are compatible with this, unfortunately ("be an efreet" obviously won't work here, and Dweomerkeeper only works if you have Wish as a spell). Perhaps you can persuade your DM to waive the XP cost? You'll be getting it at level 18, after all, which is about the same level that an efreet would be getting the same sort of ability. Provided you're using to tempt people, rather than abusing it by forcing mortals to wish for things on your behalf, it shouldn't be too unbalanced.

[333]

I'll hafta talk to my DM about this stuff than. Hm... 18 levels and not gaining a single class skill. I'll hafta ask him about multiclassing out of my Savage Class as well, otherwise I'm not going to have many options, especially if the rest of my party chooses monsters with a quicker progression. Although, I could play him as a Thrallherd, have him keep a few strong "pets" around so he can battle with their abilities and such, atleast until I can freely gain class levels. That raises an intersting point, which classes stack with Incubus levels and actually provide benefits? Bard and Sorcerer come to mind, as does Enchanter, although at levele 13, 1 level in these classes isn't gonna help me much... If my DM lets me multiclass freely, what classes should I take and at what levels in my Incubus progression? And if he doesn't, I'll need to look at what prestige classes I'll meet the requirements for as a level 12 incubus.

[Calanon]

:elan: Oh! oh! oh! ask if you can be a Balor (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1820.0)

Edit: Nevermind you want to be a Pit Fiend... (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1832.0)

But I'm just saying you should join the winning team... the Tan'ari are getting pretty close to taking the first layer of the nine hells :smallbiggrin:

THE ABYSS SHALL RISE AGAIN!

[333]

uh... Thanks? I normally play Lawful characters, so a Devil would be more my style normally, but I think it would be fun to play a chaotic evil Demon. And besides, at first glance neither of those has the flavor I'm looking for. Thanks for your concern about me being on the winning team though XD

[Calanon]

uh... Thanks? I normally play Lawful characters, so a Devil would be more my style normally, but I think it would be fun to play a chaotic evil Demon. And besides, at first glance neither of those has the flavor I'm looking for. Thanks for your concern about me being on the winning team though XD

Eh just as well... :smallannoyed: There are no good Demons worth RP'ing as... Well... unless your RP'ing a newly risen Demon Lord... and even then that kind of sucks... :smallannoyed:

Since I've thrown my 2 cp in on Demons... Lets talk about the Nine Hells, The Pact Primeval and the Lords of the Nine :smallbiggrin:

As I'm confident you already know, the Nine hells (as well as the Abyss) has a system of promotion and demotion with Promotion being rewarded for great deeds and demotion being inflicted for crushing failures. The pact primeval allows Devils or "Baazetu" to derive there own power from the souls of the damned (Lawful Evil souls). Unfortunately for most least devils they cannot go to the material plane to subvert the will of the righteous into committing atrocity, so the earliest you will ever be able to subvert the will of the good is as an Imp and even then you are an underling of a harvester devil and to become a Harvester devil that is a good 3 ranks (earning an upgraded rank in the nine hells is literally twice as hard as defeating Tiamat [Can you say? "Time Stop lol 20 free rounds!"] ...Another reason I hate the nine hells) and honestly by the time you spent all your time trying to advance in ranks your entire party died of old age, and by the time you've advanced your rank high enough to the point where you are actually a somebody in the nine hells (A Duke) an entire gods life has just passed :smallannoyed:

The reason I hate the nine hells is the friken bureaucratic nature of it all I understand the natures of Lawful Evil but for god sakes throw the paper off your desk and stab the dude in the eye! Man a joke in my group is "The only reason the Lords of the Nine want sacrifices is so they can get the pleasure of doing more paper work" :smalltongue: I'll be the first to admit the Abyss isn't the most WELL oiled machines but atleast in the Nine hells you don't spend half of eternity trying to make something out of yourself while a friken mortal accomplished everything you just did in a little less then half there life span and another thing when your planar binding a Devil you have to offer your soul and the souls of everyone he/she kills while on the material but with a Demon? He just wants the pleasure of unleashing chaos onto the world... By the River Styx and the Forgotten Lake I hate the Nine Hells! :smallfurious:

on a side note: I believe I semi-overreacted on my description of the Nine Hells...

[333]

I was skimming the fiendish codexes and read that Demons, being chaotic in nature, aren't that great with the long term and over-arching deals for which Devils are famous BUT, I didn't read anywhere that said Demons lack the power to make Faustian deals, so I wonder, would a Chaotic Evil Incubus with a penchant for deal making have more in common with an Demon Lord or an ArchDevil? Also, if an infernal faustian deal involves dedicating your soul to a Duke of Hell, would a demonic deal involve dedicating it to a Demon Lord? or could my Incubus's deals have his name be the one used in the dedication, as a way of fueling his own power? I guess I'd hafta talk to my DM about that...

[Calanon]

I was skimming the fiendish codexes and read that Demons, being chaotic in nature, aren't that great with the long term and over-arching deals for which Devils are famous BUT, I didn't read anywhere that said Demons lack the power to make Faustian deals, so I wonder, would a Chaotic Evil Incubus with a penchant for deal making have more in common with an Demon Lord or an ArchDevil?

Chaotic =/= Automatic Sociopath Chaotic Evil means that they honestly don't give a crap... a Succubus would rather be with her charge then away in the abyss waiting for the foolish mortal to kick the bucket. An Imp would have a list of people who are under his charge Teleporting around his district checking to see if anyone has kicked the bucket everyday until someone dies and then he just checks that person off his list and and delivers the paperwork to his supervisor who then directs it to his/her Lord... it is possible to prevent a soul from going to the nine hells (even after making a Deal) by interrupting this chain of effect, the only way besides this is by going to court.


if an infernal faustian deal involves dedicating your soul to a Duke of Hell, would a demonic deal involve dedicating it to a Demon Lord? or could my Incubus's deals have his name be the one used in the dedication, as a way of fueling his own power? I guess I'd hafta talk to my DM about that...

a Demonic Faustian Deal promises the soul to the Demon in question (I.e. a Demon made with an Incubus would deliver the soul to the incubus, however Souls in the Abyss are used different then in the Nine Hells, so I'm not sure you would grow any stronger for consuming them... besides the average sustenance)

[333]

Alright, thanks Calanon :) you get a cookie lol. Seriously though, since we got that sorted out, I'm gonna start looking for feats and such, and try and find a way to gain spells which capture souls as soon as possible.

As for eating the souls, I actually imagined him selling them to other evil outsiders in exchange for power, but IIRC, Devils have no use for souls of a non-Lawful Evil alignment, which might complicate things if I try to do business with the Nine Hells.

Aw well, this character is still looking like he's going to be fun to play, even if I have no idea how I'm gonna optimize him at early levels. Probably need feats which focus on his spell-like abilities and his charisma. Is there a way to add his charisma modifier to his attack bonus? And please don't suggest making a witty remark with each attack XD

[Urpriest]

There are actually a bunch of interesting things you can do with Incubus. It's one of the few Savage Species Monster Classes that's actually kind of decent. (By the way, you do gain class skills, read the class description. That, or read my Monster Guide if you haven't yet).

Some stuff people take after Succubus/Incubus:
Marshal: A single level of Marshal can give Cha to a lot of nice things if you plan right.
Paladin of Slaughter: Cha to Saves, more for Turning to power various Feats
Mindspy: Cha to various combat things when you read peoples' minds

[333]

XD I misspoke, when I said class skills (I must have been temporarily insane @.@) I meant to say "Abilities relating to a core class which make me different from an average incubus" *snicker* sorry about that. I actually did a quick read through of your guide Ur-Priest, and was about to take a more detailed look and compare the Savage species Succubus with the one in the MM, see what I needed to update.

I'll take a look at all three of those, see what I like. Ironically, I was looking at the Ur-Priest class, and the capstone would give me access to XP free wish, as long as I summoned a Devil with the ability no more than 24 hours before making my offer. And I like the flavor of a godless creature stealing power from the gods. Now if I could tie THAT to my Cha I'd be set, can you imagine all the bonus spells? anywho, I'm off to hunt down those classes and have a look.

EDIT: Looks like an incubus won't qualify for Ur-Priest at 12 level. Back to the drawing board lol

[Urpriest]

XD I misspoke, when I said class skills (I must have been temporarily insane @.@) I meant to say "Abilities relating to a core class which make me different from an average incubus" *snicker* sorry about that. I actually did a quick read through of your guide Ur-Priest, and was about to take a more detailed look and compare the Savage species Succubus with the one in the MM, see what I needed to update.

I'll take a look at all three of those, see what I like. Ironically, I was looking at the Ur-Priest class, and the capstone would give me access to XP free wish, as long as I summoned a Devil with the ability no more than 24 hours before making my offer. And I like the flavor of a godless creature stealing power from the gods. Now if I could tie THAT to my Cha I'd be set, can you imagine all the bonus spells? anywho, I'm off to hunt down those classes and have a look.

EDIT: Looks like an incubus won't qualify for Ur-Priest at 12 level. Back to the drawing board lol

Actually, it won't be that hard to get in with a bit of effort applied. You've got good enough saves and almost all of the skills, the only thing you're missing is Spellcraft. There's an Abyssal Heritor Feat in Fiendish Codex I that will give it to you as a class skill, all you need is Int 13. While the fluff of Abyssal Heritor feats seems to say that they're for mortals, there are no explicit statements that Demons can't take them.

Edit: It's called Keeper of Forbidden Lore

[333]

Awesome! Thanks Ur-Priest! *runs off to work on a build*

EDIT: While I'm working on this, anyone know of a way to use my Charisma for Ur-Priest spells rather than Wisdom?

[Urpriest]

Awesome! Thanks Ur-Priest! *runs off to work on a build*

EDIT: While I'm working on this, anyone know of a way to use my Charisma for Ur-Priest spells rather than Wisdom?

Dynamic Priest, Dragonlance

[Woodrow]

Dynamic Priest, Dragonlance

That one needs to be added to X Stat to Y Bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732).

[333]

Alright, that takes care of my first level feat. My group meets tonight for our waterdeep game, so I'll talk to my DM about multiclassing before level 12. Either way, I'm thinking Ur-Priest2/Sorcerer for a few levels, and then Folchian(sp?) Lyricist. That gives me Divine and Arcane spell casting, and a little taste of bard song. I'll focus my Sorcerer spells on complimenting my incubus abilities, providing some dominate spells and direct damage, and use Soulbind and similar spells for my contracts. I think there is a feat which provides access to Domain spells, which I might look into for some demonic or manipulative domains. Also the Pact spells from Complete divine(i think) have an interesting feel, as well as a few spells from BoVD which transfer the essence from a demon to a mortal and provide the mortal with a bonus, and as far as I can see the demon suffers no ill effects, and can actually benefit from divinations targeted on the benefactor of the spell. This character is coming together nicely!

[Urpriest]

Fochluchan Lyrist might be a bit hard to get into. The class skills alone are sort of a nightmare, not to mention getting Evasion (try asking your DM if a Ring of Evasion counts), and Druidic (depends on how strictly the DM takes the whole "only Druids can learn Druidic" clause.

Really, you don't gain much from Theurging in this case. You're dumping a bunch of levels of spell progression in your racial class anyway, you don't need to slow yourself down further.

[333]

Didn't think of it that way. I was trying to boost my UP CL with sorcerer, and kinda skimmed over the lyricist's requirements. =.= my fault. With my cha I'll prolly be able to make use of some divine metamagic feats, and there has to be a domain that gives you trap the soul, soul bind, or similar spells, unless they are already available to clerics and I've just missed it.