Defeat a Balor..?

[ngilop]

Hey guys, I am currently trying to re-work the CR system in D&D, to make it be a little more accurate.

I want you to create a character than can Defeat a Balor, I know.. 'its not that difficult' but my challenge is thus

Beat him at the earliest level you can, infinite loops, outright rule violations, crazy use of RAW ( as it rawr I heal by drowning and a vigilante get 20 3rd level spells etc etc) so No pun-pun or the other 'Theoretical Optimization' characters or rules.

I mean a character you would use in a game, that you were playing with your friends and a couple of new people.

Basically if you think that if your not playing a batman divine oracle mindbender incantrix then you are terrifail, then please do not try to build this character because then yes, you can probably get a 1st level character to kill a Balor.

[Golden Ladybug]

Its incredibly easy to defeat anything at Level 1, what with the Versatile Domain Generalist kicking around.

But, lets do this seriously. The biggest obstacle to defeating a Balor is probably Greater Teleport at will. Because unless its gets taken out in one hit, then you can't reasonably deal with it until you can hit it with a Dimensional Anchor or similar to stop it from bailing, spending a few rounds pressganging something into healing it back to full, and then Greater Teleporting right back. You also want to have Immunity to Mind Affecting effects, because that turns off most of the Balors win buttons. Does Implosion work on undead? I can't remember, to be honest, but if it doesn't, the first thing you want to do is be a Necropolitan.

I know it can be done in E6, but I can't remember how. There was a contest about it and everything.

Anyway, have some ways of killing the Balor at low(ish) levels.

Orc Necropolitan Fighter 2/Barbarian 1/Psychic Warrior 3/Fighter +2/Frenzied Beserker 1
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Feats: 1) Power Attack
Fighter 1) Cleave
Fighter 2) Improved Bullrush
3) Intimidating Rage
PsyWar1) Psionic Weapon
PsyWar2) Deep Impact
6) Shock Trooper
Fighter 4) Destructive Rage
9) Leap Attack

Skills: 8 Jump

Relevant Abilitiy Scores: St 38 (18 Base, +4 Racial, +4 Rage, +6 Frenzy, +4 Enhancement, +2 level up)

Equipment: +1 Valourous Greatsword (8000gp)
Belt of Giant's Strength +4 (16,000gp)

Round 1: (Rage and Frenzy) Charge at Balor, using Deep Impact to make it the first attack of the charge a Touch Attack (+22 to hit against AC 16), while the other two are made at +22 and +17 respectively against its normal AC 35, requiring a 13 and an 18 to hit. Drop AC by 8 to gain 16 Damage with Shock Trooper and Power Attack.

Attack 1: ([2d6+38]x2)x3 = 12d6+228
Attack 2: ([2d6+38]x2)x3 = 12d6+228
Attack 3: ([2d6+38]x2)x3 = 12d6+228

Overall, thats 36d6+684, more than enough to kill a Balor

- - - -

Strongheart Halfling Necropolitan Cleric 9
Alignment: Any Evil
Feats: 1) Maximise Spell
H) Magical Training
Domain) Extra Turning
Domain) Extend Spell
3) DMM: Maximise Spell
6) Arcane Mastery
9) Craft Rod

Relevant Ability Scores: Dex 18 Wis 15+ Cha 12

Equipment: Lesser Metamagic Rod of Quickening (17,500gp 1400xp)

Round 1: Standard: Cast Divine Power
Round 2: Standard: Cast Dimensional Anchor on Balor (Ranged Touch +13 against AC 16), Swift Action Extended Assay Spell Resistance
Round 3: Standard: DMM Maximised Shivering Touch (18 Dex Damage), Swift: Quickened DMM Maximised Shivering Touch (18 Dex Damage), Move: Walk over to the Balor
Round 4+: Coup De Grace the Balor with your Scythe until it runs out of HP or fails its Fort Save.

- - - -

Elven Domain (Conjuration) Generalist Wizard 1
Alignment: Evil

1) Alacritous Cogitation
Flaw) Versatile Spellcaster

Round 0: Achieve 9th Level Spells by using Versatile Spellcaster and your Domain Spells. Chain Gate Solars
Round 1: Set Solars on the Balor

NOTE: Needs to grind a bit beforehand, to get the 1000xp and elect not to level up to pay for the first Gate

Necroplolitan Stonehunter Gnome Focused Illusionist 5/Incantatrix 1/Shadowcraft Mage 5
Alignment: Evil

Feats: 1) Arcane Disciple (Luck)
Flaw) Earth Sense
Flaw) Spell Focus: Illusion
3) Earth Spell
Wizard5) Spontaneous Diviniation
Incantratrix1) Heighten spell
6) Practical Metamagic: Heighten
9) Versatile Spellcaster

Round 1: Use Silent Image to emulate Miracle at 110% Reality (or 90% Reality, maybe), defeat Balor with any number of 8th Level (Cleric) or 7th (everything) spells that you have access to. Use Celerity if you'd like to try again.

NOTE: Probably could do this more elegantly, or just use the same trick as the Cleric, but I didn't want to repeat myself

I'd give you some sort of "thief" build as well, but I'm terrible at making them work :smallbiggrin:

So, while the Wizard Build(s) did use some high-op tricks, they were mostly for style points rather than not being able to do it otherwise, the other two were fairly mid-op (at least, what I consider to be Mid-Op).

Make of that what you will.

[Gavinfoxx]

Woo!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9078182#post9078182

[candycorn]

Primary obstacles to killing a Balor:

1) It Flies at a very high speed (90). This immediately invalidates most charge tactics.

2) Initiative +11. You need to invest in going first, significantly, or else expect to concede the first action to it.

3) Numerous SoL's, targeting a variety of saves, and at will greater dispel.

4) Relatively good SR and DR.

5) Free Quickened SLA 3 times in the fight (Telekinesis).

6) Escape Button (Greater Teleport at will).

Now, let's look at specifics.

Blasphemy at will. If you're level 15 or less, it will be able to pretty much lock you down forever, unless you have Freedom of Movement. If you're level 10 or less, you're dead. Only real defense? Be evil.

Dominate Monster at will. DC 27 Will, or you're baking it cookies forever.

Greater Dispel Magic at will, +20 to the check. Don't count on having or keeping buffs.

Insanity at Will. DC 25 or lose control of your character, more or less.

Power Word Stun at will. If you have 150 HP or less, you're boned. It can keep it up all day long.

Telekinesis at will (quickened 3/day). good for tossing people and weapons around, or grappling enemies, tripping winged flyers, and more.

Implosion. DC 27 fort or you're dead.

Fly 90. It can fly all day, so it probably will be flying. Almost every flyer ascends at half speed. Creatures moving at half speed cannot run or charge. Therefore, if it's above you, chances are, you're not charging it. Combine with quickened Telekinesis to trip winged flyers, and greater dispel to handle magic flyers, and getting high enough to charge opens up the possibility of a fairly stout fall.

UMD 31 (33 with scrolls). Expect it to be able to use most anything it has in its hoard.

Not saying it can't be done... but it's not as easy as it's being made out to be. Dominate Monster alone will make fighting it very, very difficult.

To note: The highest HP PC shown so far is a necropolitan barbarian with 53 hp, and a very weak reflex save. Fire Storm will do 70 average damage, Reflex DC 26 half. With that Initiative modifier, it makes those characters quite vulnerable.

[Golden Ladybug]

Hmm, okay then, fair enough. I'll fully stat up one of my half-baked ideas and see if they would be able to beat this Balor.

Since the E6 results were brought up, I'll follow the same rules laid out there that don't apply only to E6 (such as the Bonus Feats, the LA/RHD Mitigation, drastic increase in cost of items and the huge wealth), and bring the level up to 9, because that was what I'd arbitrarily chosen beforehand. And, since all of those characters were built with the intention of soloing the Balor in their own way, they'll be going it alone.

Is there an obligation to do this? No, not in the slightest. I just want to see if I can do it in a vaguely interesting way.

I'll be back in half an hour or so :smallbiggrin:

[candycorn]

Also note: Casting a miracle alone isn't enough.

SR 28 means your caster level is important, or you must use an SR: No spell (for Killer Gnomes, CL is important, no getting around it).

The Balor's saves are effectively Fort +26, Reflex +23, Will +23. This is because it has Unholy Aura at will, which means it can generally be assumed to be always active. Using it once every other minute isn't that hard. So, assuming a 9th level spell, you still need a stat modifier of +6 to give it more than a 5% failure chance on a save.

The Balor effectively has an AC of 39 (again, unholy aura). touch AC is effectively 20, and FF AC is effectively 32. Not insurmountable, but certainly more difficult to bypass, since it has True Seeing up all the time, and a spot of +38.

Also, expect at least a decent chance that it is heavily invested in the knowledge that relates to you (2 knowledge skills, +30). If so, it will likely know your favorite breakfast cereal, and how often you make bowel movements.

Also, Hide +26, Move Silent +30, and Greater Teleport at will make it quite adept at playing Cat-and-Mouse, as well.

[Golden Ladybug]

Took a bit more than half an hour, but then again, I'm horrible at estimating how much time something'll take me. I'm assuming the battlefield is a featureless plain (as the E6 challenge) and that the Balor doesn't Greater Teleport away once I'm within 120ft of him.

Necropolitan Half-Orc Half-Orc Paragon 1/Human Paragon 2/Half Orc Paragon+2/Psychic Warrior 3/Frenzied Berserker 1
Chaotic Evil
HP: 9d12 (64 Average, 108 Max)
Abilities: Str 24 Dex 12 Con -- Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 10
BAB: +7
Init: +5

Feats: 1) Power Attack
Flaw) Improved Bull Rush
Flaw) Cleave
3) Intimidating Rage
HumanParagon2) Destructive Rage
6) Shock Trooper
PsyWar1) Psionic Weapon
PsyWar2) Deep Impact
Fighter1) Leap Attack
9) Improved Initiative

Relevant Skills: UMD* +16 (12 Ranks, +2 Circumstance, +2 Cha) Jump +19 (12 Ranks, +7 Str)

*Class Skill from Human Paragon's Adaptive Learning

Equipment: +1 Valourous Deep Crystal Greatsword (9,350gp)
+1 Warning Dagger (8,302gp)
Scroll of Improvisation CL20 (1000gp)
Scroll of Sign (25gp)
Potion of Eagle's Splendour (300gp)
Potion of Bull's Strength (300gp)
Potion of Divine Insight (300gp)
Feathered Wings Graft (10,000gp)
Wand of Nerveskitter (750gp)
Wand of Wings of Cover (4500gp)
Masterwork Tool: UMD (50gp)
2 Wand Chambers (200gp)

Wealth Remaining: 898gp

Tactics: Before attacking the Balor (who I can only assume was minding his own business before this Zombie Half-Orc attacked him), gulp down your Potion of Divine Insight, Eagle's Splendor and Bull's Strength, and then cast Improvisation from a Scroll, discharging Divine Insight to get up to a +21 Bonus to UMD. Improvisation'll last for twenty rounds. Then, read your scroll of Sign (burning 4 Points of Luck), which'll last for 1 minute.

Then, manifest Expansion (1PP) and grow to Large Size, gaining +2 Strength and -2 Dex, lasting for 2 Rounds. Time to go.

Enter Battle with your dreaded foe, the Balor, holding your Warning Dagger in one hand, and your Greatsword dangling in the other, casting Nerveskitter as an Immediate Action from the Wand Chamber in your Dagger (4 More Points of Luck). Your Initiative is 34 because of Sign and the bonus from your Dagger Wand, so you move first. If all goes badly and the Balor gets a turn, you've got that Wand of Wings of Cover inside your Greatsword, so just burn more Luck to activate it if the Balor does something threatening.

Drop the Dagger as a Free Action, and then put your hands on your Greatsword. Funnel a Power Point into it (Another Free Action), charging the Deep Crystal.

Now, Rage and Frenzy, which along with Size, puts your Strength at 38.

Charging, and making a Jump (to activate Leaping Charge) and take to the Skies if the Balor is flying, or just keep running if not. Discharge your Psionic Focus for Deep Impact and Drop your AC by 7 with Shock Trooper and Power Attack.

With +24 to Hit against the Balors pitiful Touch AC of 16, you hit automatically on anything other than a 1. That'll be 3d6+2d6+35, double from Valourous and then Tripled for Leap Attack. That ends up being 18d6+12d6+210, or around about 300 Damage for that hit.

If, by some ridiculousness, the Balor Survived, you get to make another attack thanks to Frenzy, and heres where that Imrpovisation starts paying for itself. You can expend 10 Points of Luck to turn that +24 into a +34, meaning you hit on anything higher than a 1, seeing as thats an auto-miss. That is another 250 or so damage.

Unfortunately, you'll probably die when the Balor's Death Throes turns on, but what a way to go out?

EDIT: Okay, I didn't take Unholy Aura into account, but it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Just means the second attack only hits on a 5 or higher, rather than a 2 or higher.

Killer Gnome build probably wouldn't work, like you said. We'll just get the Domain Generalist to pick up the slack then :smallwink:

EDIT2: Misremembered how Valorous and Leap Attack work, and after checking, seems that this doesn't actually do as much damage as I thought, so it doesn't kill the Balor...:smallfrown:

I should have statted up the Cleric

[kardar233]

Just thought I'd let you know that Leap Attack only multiplies Power Attack damage, not the whole thing.

[Raendyn]

Its incredibly easy to defeat anything
Orc Necropolitan Fighter 2/Barbarian 1/Psychic Warrior 3/Fighter +2/Frenzied Beserker 1
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Feats: 1) Power Attack
Fighter 1) Cleave
Fighter 2) Improved Bullrush
3) Intimidating Rage
PsyWar1) Psionic Weapon
PsyWar2) Deep Impact
6) Shock Trooper
Fighter 4) Destructive Rage
9) Leap Attack

Skills: 8 Jump

Relevant Abilitiy Scores: St 38 (18 Base, +4 Racial, +4 Rage, +6 Frenzy, +4 Enhancement, +2 level up)

Equipment: +1 Valourous Greatsword (8000gp)
Belt of Giant's Strength +4 (16,000gp)

Round 1: (Rage and Frenzy) Charge at Balor, using Deep Impact to make it the first attack of the charge a Touch Attack (+22 to hit against AC 16), while the other two are made at +22 and +17 respectively against its normal AC 35, requiring a 13 and an 18 to hit. Drop AC by 8 to gain 16 Damage with Shock Trooper and Power Attack.

Attack 1: ([2d6+38]x2)x3 = 12d6+228
Attack 2: ([2d6+38]x2)x3 = 12d6+228
Attack 3: ([2d6+38]x2)x3 = 12d6+228

Overall, thats 36d6+684, more than enough to kill a Balor

- - - -

Strongheart Halfling Necropolitan Cleric 9
Alignment: Any Evil
Feats: 1) Maximise Spell
H) Magical Training
Domain) Extra Turning
Domain) Extend Spell
3) DMM: Maximise Spell
6) Arcane Mastery
9) Craft Rod

Relevant Ability Scores: Dex 18 Wis 15+ Cha 12

Equipment: Lesser Metamagic Rod of Quickening (17,500gp 1400xp)

Round 1: Standard: Cast Divine Power
Round 2: Standard: Cast Dimensional Lock on Balor (Ranged Touch +13 against AC 16), Swift Action Extended Assay Spell Resistance
Round 3: Standard: DMM Maximised Shivering Touch (18 Dex Damage), Swift: Quickened DMM Maximised Shivering Touch (18 Dex Damage), Move: Walk over to the Balor
Round 4+: Coup De Grace the Balor with your Scythe until it runs out of HP or fails its Fort Save.

- - - -

Elven Domain (Conjuration) Generalist Wizard 1
Alignment: Evil

1) Alacritous Cogitation
Flaw) Versatile Spellcaster

Round 0: Achieve 9th Level Spells by using Versatile Spellcaster and your Domain Spells. Chain Gate Solars
Round 1: Set Solars on the Balor

NOTE: Needs to grind a bit beforehand, to get the 1000xp and elect not to level up to pay for the first Gate

Necroplolitan Stonehunter Gnome Focused Illusionist 5/Incantatrix 1/Shadowcraft Mage 5
Alignment: Evil

Feats: 1) Arcane Disciple (Luck)
Flaw) Earth Sense
Flaw) Spell Focus: Illusion
3) Earth Spell
Wizard5) Spontaneous Diviniation
Incantratrix1) Heighten spell
6) Practical Metamagic: Heighten
9) Versatile Spellcaster

Round 1: Use Silent Image to emulate Miracle at 110% Reality (or 90% Reality, maybe), defeat Balor with any number of 8th Level (Cleric) or 7th (everything) spells that you have access to. Use Celerity if you'd like to try again.

NOTE: Probably could do this more elegantly, or just use the same trick as the Cleric, but I didn't want to repeat myself


Never felt more dissappointed...
Not a single build here is legal nor makes sense. Every single trick is a mistake that got stolen from threads like "Imagine if *trick* was working this way".
Build#1
a)Valorous doubles Weapon damage 2d6->4d6
b)BAB=8=>PA=16=>Leap Attack=48 (OFC 2 multipliers here stated "doubled" and "tripled". And following normal multiplying rules its 8x4, but w/e)
c)To make the extra two attacks you need pounce and I think you took lion spirit totem barbarian for it. But the bonus of Leap attack and Valorous weapon does not apply to them. Feats Clearly use Singular and not plural. " you make an attack at the end of the charge"
Ergo:4d6+48+14(str) dmg. +2d6+16+14. +2d6+16+14

Also you need to be able to fly, to fly faster than Balor, not die form its "Will or loose", find a way to stop him from bringing a second Balor...

Build#2
Yeah ok, RAW AM applies to divine spells as well, even thouh its not the intend. But again, DLock is 8th lvl spell, and its not ranged touch, you must be meaning Dimensional Anchor. which has to deal with Spell Resistance.

I can see an alternative much more realistic to these rounds simulation.
Round 1: Standard: Cast Divine Power, Swift Action Extended Assay Spell Resistance(or assay + anchor)
Balor's Round 1: Power Word Stun!
Round 2: Stuned...
Balor's Round 2: Takes out its personal auto biography and starts explaining to you how meany his papa was to him, and how once Demogorgon called him idiot, and how painfull that was for him.
Round #100: after stuning you for all those rounds and after he explained to you his life's drama, he reminded how cruel the world was to him and then he suicided without killing you. Only, Death Throes kills you...

Build#3
No comments... not even strick abuse of RAW can't make it legal, same problems as above, even if GM is your Grilfriend and grees so it works...

Build#4
WotC confirmed that SCM can't use Miracle abuse in such a way. Even if you fulfill the deific requirments, SR is a problem as it applies on all your spells. Shadow conjured mirracle can't go above 100%


Took a bit more than half an hour, but then again, I'm horrible at estimating how much time something'll take me. I'm assuming the battlefield is a featureless plain (as the E6 challenge) and that the Balor doesn't Greater Teleport away once I'm within 120ft of him.

Necropolitan Half-Orc Half-Orc Paragon 1/Human Paragon 2/Half Orc Paragon+2/Psychic Warrior 3/Frenzied Berserker 1
Chaotic Evil
HP: 9d12 (64 Average, 108 Max)
Abilities: Str 24 Dex 12 Con -- Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 10
BAB: +7
Init: +5

Feats: 1) Power Attack
Flaw) Improved Bull Rush
Flaw) Cleave
3) Intimidating Rage
HumanParagon2) Destructive Rage
6) Shock Trooper
PsyWar1) Psionic Weapon
PsyWar2) Deep Impact
Fighter1) Leap Attack
9) Improved Initiative

Relevant Skills: UMD* +16 (12 Ranks, +2 Circumstance, +2 Cha) Jump +19 (12 Ranks, +7 Str)

*Class Skill from Human Paragon's Adaptive Learning

Equipment: +1 Valourous Deep Crystal Greatsword (9,350gp)
+1 Warning Dagger (8,302gp)
Scroll of Improvisation CL20 (1000gp)
Scroll of Sign (25gp)
Potion of Eagle's Splendour (300gp)
Potion of Bull's Strength (300gp)
Potion of Divine Insight (300gp)
Feathered Wings Graft (10,000gp)
Wand of Nerveskitter (750gp)
Wand of Wings of Cover (4500gp)
Masterwork Tool: UMD (50gp)
2 Wand Chambers (200gp)

Wealth Remaining: 898gp

Tactics: Before attacking the Balor (who I can only assume was minding his own business before this Zombie Half-Orc attacked him), gulp down your Potion of Divine Insight, Eagle's Splendor and Bull's Strength, and then cast Improvisation from a Scroll, discharging Divine Insight to get up to a +21 Bonus to UMD. Improvisation'll last for twenty rounds. Then, read your scroll of Sign (burning 4 Points of Luck), which'll last for 1 minute.

Then, manifest Expansion (1PP) and grow to Large Size, gaining +2 Strength and -2 Dex, lasting for 2 Rounds. Time to go.

Enter Battle with your dreaded foe, the Balor, holding your Warning Dagger in one hand, and your Greatsword dangling in the other, casting Nerveskitter as an Immediate Action from the Wand Chamber in your Dagger (4 More Points of Luck). Your Initiative is 34 because of Sign and the bonus from your Dagger Wand, so you move first. If all goes badly and the Balor gets a turn, you've got that Wand of Wings of Cover inside your Greatsword, so just burn more Luck to activate it if the Balor does something threatening.

Drop the Dagger as a Free Action, and then put your hands on your Greatsword. Funnel a Power Point into it (Another Free Action), charging the Deep Crystal.

Now, Rage and Frenzy, which along with Size, puts your Strength at 38.

Charging, and making a Jump (to activate Leaping Charge) and take to the Skies if the Balor is flying, or just keep running if not. Discharge your Psionic Focus for Deep Impact and Drop your AC by 7 with Shock Trooper and Power Attack.

With +24 to Hit against the Balors pitiful Touch AC of 16, you hit automatically on anything other than a 1. That'll be 3d6+2d6+35, double from Valourous and then Tripled for Leap Attack. That ends up being 18d6+12d6+210, or around about 300 Damage for that hit.

If, by some ridiculousness, the Balor Survived, you get to make another attack thanks to Frenzy, and heres where that Imrpovisation starts paying for itself. You can expend 10 Points of Luck to turn that +24 into a +34, meaning you hit on anything higher than a 1, seeing as thats an auto-miss. That is another 250 or so damage.

Unfortunately, you'll probably die when the Balor's Death Throes turns on, but what a way to go out?

a)After Half-orc paragon 1st lvl you cant take both human and half-orc paragons levels. you can choose either but not both.
b)You calculate power attack/leap attack wrong and you add it to all attacks, check above spoiler.
c)to use improvisation DC is 40, that's not auto-success.
d)Winds of Cover don't protect against AOE, only +4RS
e)Why the h3ll can you use leap attack? Did you End your jump?
f)Feathered wings cant actually help you reach him he can kite you all day long, check DMG for maneuverability
G) PWStun brings us to above spoiler cleric scenario


Personal advice with all good hope here: Stop reading theoritical optimizations of the forums, especially those made by ppl that we all know what they are made of.

[Tokiko Mima]

A fairly standard 13th level Hellfire Glaivelock with Empower/Maximize/Quicken SLA feats, and Eldritch Glaive and Vitriolic Blast invocations and a divine power buff ought to be able to swat a Balor dead in a single full-round action, even accounting for it's acid resistance. This is assuming of course that the warlock could get in melee range, and assuming it doesn't miss any touch attacks. With higher levels and/or better gear the attacks lethality becomes more certain.

[Zombimode]

Elven Domain (Conjuration) Generalist Wizard 1
Alignment: Evil

1) Alacritous Cogitation
Flaw) Versatile Spellcaster

Round 0: Achieve 9th Level Spells by using Versatile Spellcaster and your Domain Spells. Chain Gate Solars
Round 1: Set Solars on the Balor

NOTE: Needs to grind a bit beforehand, to get the 1000xp and elect not to level up to pay for the first Gate.

A 1st level character casting a 9th level spell is certainly... interessting.
But how does this work, exactly. Just from the information you have provided, I wasnt able to reconstruct the trick.
Alacritous Cogitation enables to spontaneously cast a spell by leaving one slot open. And I can see that it could be argued that this meets the requirements for Versatile Spellcaster.
Great, now the 1st level elven Wizard can use his 0-level spells to cast more 1st level spells. While this is actually a very nice trick for low-level NPC-wizards to make them more powerfull, I cant see how does this help to cast a 9th level spell.
I see that the Conjuration Domain grants Gate, but I cant see how this helps a 1st level character to cast the spell.
I cant figure out the elven part, so maybe here lies the key to make all this work?

[Golden Ladybug]

A 1st level character casting a 9th level spell is certainly... interessting.
But how does this work, exactly. Just from the information you have provided, I wasnt able to reconstruct the trick.
Alacritous Cogitation enables to spontaneously cast a spell by leaving one slot open. And I can see that it could be argued that this meets the requirements for Versatile Spellcaster.
Great, now the 1st level elven Wizard can use his 0-level spells to cast more 1st level spells. While this is actually a very nice trick for low-level NPC-wizards to make them more powerfull, I cant see how does this help to cast a 9th level spell.
I see that the Conjuration Domain grants Gate, but I cant see how this helps a 1st level character to cast the spell.
I cant figure out the elven part, so maybe here lies the key to make all this work?

Sorry about that, I shouldn't have assumed the Elven Domain Generalist was common knowledge. The explanation to this trick is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10197586&postcount=9)


Never felt more dissappointed...
Not a single build here is legal nor makes sense. Every single trick is a mistake that got stolen from threads like "Imagine if *trick* was working this way".

All of these things have precedence, and to the best of my knowledge, are legal by RAW. These are examples of legitimate strategies, and any mistakes are probably because I made a mistake somewhere.


Build#1
a)Valorous doubles Weapon damage 2d6->4d6
b)BAB=8=>PA=16=>Leap Attack=48 (OFC 2 multipliers here stated "doubled" and "tripled". And following normal multiplying rules its 8x4, but w/e)
c)To make the extra two attacks you need pounce and I think you took lion spirit totem barbarian for it. But the bonus of Leap attack and Valorous weapon does not apply to them. Feats Clearly use Singular and not plural. " you make an attack at the end of the charge"
Ergo:4d6+48+14(str) dmg. +2d6+16+14. +2d6+16+14

Also you need to be able to fly, to fly faster than Balor, not die form its "Will or loose", find a way to stop him from bringing a second Balor...


a) My bad, must've misremembered Valorous. I threw together those builds in ~10 minutes, and didn't do any more than cursory fact checking. Seems my memory must be going :smallwink:
b) Okay, once again, my bad. Lowers the damage output a fair bit, but that's okay. Should've checked it before posting, but we all make mistakes
c) Yeah, I disagree with that. Pounce Changes how these interact, because without Pounce, you'd only be getting one attack at the end of the charge. With Pounce, you get your iteratives, which are still the attacks you make at the end of the charge, which implies to me that the effects of Valourous and Leap Attack get applied again. If you don't read it like that, that's fine, we'll agree to disagree (or someone finds a ruling, or one of the more rules savvy playgrounders wanders in and tells us. I would, but I want to go to sleep soon. Its late)

Lastly, I'll point out that the character was a Necropolitan, and immune to most of the Balor's "Will or Lose" buttons because of it. Undead Immunities are awesome.

Doesn't have Flight, but it'd be able to get it easily enough (Feathered Wings craft, for instance)


Build#2
Yeah ok, RAW AM applies to divine spells as well, even thouh its not the intend. But again, DLock is 8th lvl spell, and its not ranged touch, you must be meaning Dimensional Anchor. which has to deal with Spell Resistance.

[I can see an alternative much more realistic to these rounds simulation.
Round 1: Standard: Cast Divine Power, Swift Action Extended Assay Spell Resistance(or assay + anchor)
Balor's Round 1: Power Word Stun!
Round 2: Stuned...
Balor's Round 2: Takes out its personal auto biography and starts explaining to you how meany his papa was to him, and how once Demogorgon called him idiot, and how painfull that was for him.
Round #100: after stuning you for all those rounds and after he explained to you his life's drama, he reminded how cruel the world was to him and then he suicided without killing you. Only, Death Throes kills you...

Fun thing, but Build Number 2 is a Necropolitan, and has undead immunites. Like, immunity to Mind-Affecting...

Anyway, my bad, I meant Dimensional Anchor, not Lock. I'll change that. And Assay Spell Resistance, Arcane Mastery and CL 9 beats the Balors Spell Resistance...:smallconfused:

And surviving Death Throes was never part of the challenge. Killing the Balor was the challenge, and that was something this Cleric could probably do. Where I to fully stat up this Cleric, I'd probably have some means of getting Time Stop up (from a scroll, probably) while performing the Buff routine, so that they only need a round to cast the Shivering Touchs.


Build#3
No comments... not even strick abuse of RAW can't make it legal, same problems as above, even if GM is your Grilfriend and grees so it works...

Why not? The Elven Domain Generalist works fine. See the link further up.

Is it cheesy as hell? Certainly. Is it RAI? Probably not. But is it RAW Legal? Yes it is!


Build#4
WotC confirmed that SCM can't use Miracle abuse in such a way. Even if you fulfill the deific requirments, SR is a problem as it applies on all your spells. Shadow conjured mirracle can't go above 100%

Yeah, didn't think about the SR at the time, as I've said, I wrote those builds up in about 10 minutes with little fact checking. Also, going by strict RAW, there is nothing wrong with using Shadowcraft Mage to emulate Miracle, as you are duplicating the effects of the spell, not the spell itself. One of the effects of Miracle is duplicating lower level spells, which does not require Deific intervention. Its just something the spell does.

And this is the first I've heard of this WotC ruling of SCM's capacity to duplicate Miracles. Do you mind providing a link?


Personal advice with all good hope here: Stop reading theoritical optimizations of the forums, especially those made by ppl that we all know what they are made of.

:smallconfused:

I'm not quite sure what that last part even means.

So yeah, while the Valourous/Leap Attack thing was my mistake, and probably makes the Ubercharger much less effective at this, the Cleric and the Domain Generalist should work. If only I'd statted them up rather than making the 'charger :smallfrown:

[Raendyn]

stuff

I meant that you seem potencially decent dnd player, and you should play and enjoy the RPG not the theoritical strategy optimization, it was a personal advice, but if that's what you enjoy more feel free...

The people I am refering to are the ones doing the mental optimizations on various forums while I strongly believe they haven't played much DnD.

No, the builds are not legal just because you read someone mentioning them on a thread.

In DnD you can do what its written that can be done. Not everything that not forbidden. I think it was Rich Baker that, or was it Williams? W/e can't recall..(like your point of viewon pounce/leap attack etc..)

Also check up I didsome comments on your zombie barbarian build has some issues with paragons. And, my bad forgon the undead-stun thing, w/e again cba working on that anymore.

And... Don't take me wrong I am not trying to play know it all, nor I am trying to offend you, I am trying to correct you with goodwill here.

[Zombimode]

Sorry about that, I shouldn't have assumed the Elven Domain Generalist was common knowledge. The explanation to this trick is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10197586&postcount=9)

I see. But it doesnt work.
Versatile Spellcaster let you use 2 slots of the same spell level to cast a spell you know one level higher.
At first level, you dont know any 2nd level spells. Thus you cant use Versatile Spellcaster to cast a second level spell. You would only get to know the Domain Spells of the corresponding level when you could cast them. You cant, so you dont get to know them.

[SSGoW]

Warblade... Yeas good ol warblade (concentration check takes the place of will, ref, and fort saves). Give him a huge bonus item to concentration....

I would have my party member teleport me to the balor's lair and strike up a conversation (I want to sell my soul?) Anyways when the time is right I take my hand that has a glove of storing on it that happens to have a portable hole shrunk down and put it into my modified pocket (might grapple him first) the pocket actually being a bag of holding sewed into my clothing...

Sure I die but so would he... And Ill be raised...

Or go all Green Archer and make an arrow that when it hits it pushes a rolled up portable hole into a bag of holding... Raipid shot and all that... I just have to hit the squares adjacent to him XD

Edit: Go in there with Glibmess on you or the actual intent of selling your soul. Make sure you did something very very good and brave recently. Why do you want to sell your soul? Your wife left u for a high ranking official and u want to destroy everything? Yeah sounds reasonable.

[gomipile]

I see. But it doesnt work.
Versatile Spellcaster let you use 2 slots of the same spell level to cast a spell you know one level higher.
At first level, you dont know any 2nd level spells. Thus you cant use Versatile Spellcaster to cast a second level spell. You would only get to know the Domain Spells of the corresponding level when you could cast them. You cant, so you dont get to know them.

The wording on domain wizard lets you cast each domain spell as soon as you can cast spells of that level. The specific wording of that and the elven generalist substitution level provides a cascading reaction that gives you all the domain spells, and spell slots up to level 9 at ECL 1.

[Zombimode]

The wording on domain wizard lets you cast each domain spell as soon as you can cast spells of that level.

Yes. The point is, that you cant cast spells of that level. How do you get arround this?
Versatile Spellcaster does nothing in that regard, since you need to know spells of the that level. And in order to get to know the domain spells, you need to be able to cast them. You cant cast them without knowing them.

And even IF it would work, you would need a casting stat of 26 (to get bonus spells including 8th level). You cant use the higher level spell from Versatile Spellcaster again with Versatile Spellcaster since you need spell slots to use Versatile Spellcaster and the feat doenst give you any.

[ngilop]

WHile I do enjoy most of teh responses, none of them are what I wanted, mostly becuase when I read my original post I left out one very important word. My apologies everybody.
here is the rule with the left out word bolded and enlarged.

Beat him at the earliest level you can, NO infinite loops, outright rule violations, crazy use of RAW ( as it rawr I heal by drowning and a vigilante get 20 3rd level spells etc etc) so No pun-pun or the other 'Theoretical Optimization' characters or rules.

I mean a character you would use in a game, that you were playing with your friends and a couple of new people.

so maybe I shoudl put in no extra cheesey cheese, loose rules interpretations, completley ignoring rules intent.
Again this is NOT an exercise in how crazy powerful you can make a charcter via TO, but an actual character you would use at say.. gen con, or if people at your local gaming shp started playing D&D and said " hey will you play with us so when we do something wrong you can show us what is up?".

But what I am getting from this is that my CR 15 designation for a Balor is off and it should be a CR 9 monster. as that seems to be around where most have they characters at.

[tyckspoon]

But what I am getting from this is that my CR 15 designation for a Balor is off and it should be a CR 9 monster. as that seems to be around where most have they characters at.

er..no. Don't confuse purpose-built Balor killers (specifically, everything posted so far is an Evil Necropolitan, which provides protection against most of the Balor's spell-likes.. but they're all still pretty screwed if the Balor gets a round to just *normally attack*) with 'this is the general level at which characters can expect to deal with this monster' that CR is meant to reflect. Blasphemy alone means that everything of 10 HD or less gets instagibbed. 15 HD or less if they're not immune to paralysis. That 1/day Fire Storm is ~70 damage to everybody, which provides another floor- you have to be able to take that hit and still be in a condition to fight.

(Mind, Blasphemy at-will is like 60% of a Balor's threat. If you removed that or set it to a lower caster level, you can much more reasonably reduce the Balor's overall CR.)

[Zombimode]

But what I am getting from this is that my CR 15 designation for a Balor is off and it should be a CR 9 monster. as that seems to be around where most have they characters at.

Eh, whats wrong with the Balor at CR 20?

CR = APL means that victory of the party is expected at 20-25% daily resource loss.
And I bet to most game groups a Balor can provide this level of challange - if not more.

Regarding all build ideas in this thread so far (those few that actually work), my money would be on the balor in an 1-on-1 fight, because they more or less require the balor to just stand on the ground twiddelin its thumps while patiently waiting to be slaughtered.

[Golden Ladybug]

I mean a character you would use in a game, that you were playing with your friends and a couple of new people.

so maybe I shoudl put in no extra cheesey cheese, loose rules interpretations, completley ignoring rules intent.
Again this is NOT an exercise in how crazy powerful you can make a charcter via TO, but an actual character you would use at say.. gen con, or if people at your local gaming shp started playing D&D and said " hey will you play with us so when we do something wrong you can show us what is up?".

But what I am getting from this is that my CR 15 designation for a Balor is off and it should be a CR 9 monster. as that seems to be around where most have they characters at.

No, the Balor is NOT a CR 9 encounter, not even close. I just arbitrarily picked ECL 9 as the point to build at. Of the builds I posted, the only one I'd probably use from that would be the Cleric, because thats not an Optimised Character by any means. Its just a Cleric, with all the power of a full caster that has access to the entirety of a really good list on demand.

But, while that Cleric who took a Crafting Feat can kill the Balor (I'd revise it to be Twin Spell and DMM: Twin, with a Rod of Lesser Maximise instead of Craft Rod and Quicken), if it goes second, or the Balor gets the drop on it, that Cleric would lose. ECL 9, and it all comes down to Rocket Tag :smallconfused:

[ngilop]

Ok so its not a CR 9 encoutner becuase a 9th levle charcter might die, but then you forogt that a cr is suppsoed ot be agaisnt 4 characters.

I am just tyring to get CRs down to be more correct, I know that the vast majority fo players do optimization like crazy so I need to account for that.

you just took a level 9 cleric that as you said ' was not optimized by any means' and was able to defeat a Balor, so really couldn't 4 charatcer of 9th level have an even easier time doing this?

so really Balor being CR 9 seems very accurate, tome at least. like smebody posted they could do it in E6.. so why are you so mad about me saying Balor is CR9?

[tyckspoon]

you just took a level 9 cleric that as you said ' was not optimized by any means' and was able to defeat a Balor, so really couldn't 4 charatcer of 9th level have an even easier time doing this?


Not really. A party of 4 9th level characters just means 4 characters die instantly instead of 1- remember, Blasphemy and Fire Storm. *Killing* things in D&D is easy, especially if you assume you ambush them. If that's your benchmark for CR, all you're doing is enshrining rocket tag as the One Right Way to play.

[ngilop]

thats is not my intent, its just after reading the majority fo threads on GiTP about randomg everythings it seems that the majority of people play extremely high optimized characters.

I want the CRs to relfect that, with the WBL that charatcers get and the official rules being ' every magic itme in existance is availbe as long as you have the gold'

So if building 1st level characters that have 2 9th level spells per day is the norm, then how can those same peopel say that CR 9 Balor is wrong?" i mena you have 2-4 ( depending on if you have 1 or 2 casters) that you can cast per day.

so its ok to be a 1st level character casitng multiple 9th levels spells a day, that is 1005 acceptable. but make a Balor CR9 is blasphemy?

[absolmorph]

Ok so its not a CR 9 encoutner becuase a 9th levle charcter might die, but then you forogt that a cr is suppsoed ot be agaisnt 4 characters.

I am just tyring to get CRs down to be more correct, I know that the vast majority fo players do optimization like crazy so I need to account for that.

you just took a level 9 cleric that as you said ' was not optimized by any means' and was able to defeat a Balor, so really couldn't 4 charatcer of 9th level have an even easier time doing this?

so really Balor being CR 9 seems very accurate, tome at least. like smebody posted they could do it in E6.. so why are you so mad about me saying Balor is CR9?
Because success or failure is based entirely on initiative at level 9, on a mildly optimized character using fairly optimal tactics. If the cleric is non-evil and loses initiative, the Balor just flaps over, uses blasphemy, and they die. If the cleric is evil and not immune to mind-affecting, the Balor can instead just use dominate person. If the cleric is evil and immune to mind-affecting, the Balor can fly 60 feet above them, and on the next turn fall as a free action and deal ~6d6+2d4+51 plus 8d6 fire (assuming 3 hits with the longsword and 2 hits with the whip, and a successful entangle). That's an average of 77 weapon damage and 28 fire damage. A cleric will have an average of 36+8*Con hit points. Oh, and the Balor can hurl a character who fails a Will save 200 feet as a swift action 3/day. Along with, say, some weapons that fill out the other 14 objects and total of 375 pounds.
Or just use Implosion from 75 feet away.

And the elven generalist is an example of a build that says "hey, look here, the rules are weird in a way I take advantage of!" It's not something most people play.
Heck, most people seem to prefer playing characters who are optimized for a concept (i.e. being ridiculously scary, training dinosaurs, etc.) than playing cheesy super god wizards.

[Tokiko Mima]

I still say the best method of killing a creature like a Balor with so many nasty Su, Ex's, SLA's and escape utilities has got to be putting it down in a single round. So the challenge would be finding something that can do damage to the Balor, and making that damage equal to 290+ damage in one round. Then the Balor can't retreat, dominate, blasphemy, fire storm, teleport, summon, or anything else. By the time it gets a chance to do anything, it's dead.

Now, after you have a build that will kill it, come up with a way to make it win initiative, or be able to gain surprise on a monster with true seeing. There are different spells to do that, or you could just count on beating it's +11 to initiative. Failing that, you could just make sure your build is hardy enough to emerge from a single attack from a Balor unscathed, I suppose.

[SimonMoon6]

How about something involving:

(a) natural flight
and
(b) anti-magic field?

I imagine that fixes a lot of problems. I'm sure there are lots of easy ways to get natural flight. I'm sure there are lots of ways to get anti-magic field cast. And it can't be dispelled (though it can be Disjunctioned). Does the balor have any magical abilities that can get through the field?

Oh, but then you'd also need:

(c) a way to keep the balor from flying out of the field and teleporting to safety.

(d) to be tough enough to handle a balor's attacks and stuff without magic.

[Zale]

Warblade... Yeas good ol warblade (concentration check takes the place of will, ref, and fort saves). Give him a huge bonus item to concentration....

I would have my party member teleport me to the balor's lair and strike up a conversation (I want to sell my soul?) Anyways when the time is right I take my hand that has a glove of storing on it that happens to have a portable hole shrunk down and put it into my modified pocket (might grapple him first) the pocket actually being a bag of holding sewed into my clothing...

Sure I die but so would he... And Ill be raised...

Or go all Green Archer and make an arrow that when it hits it pushes a rolled up portable hole into a bag of holding... Raipid shot and all that... I just have to hit the squares adjacent to him XD

Edit: Go in there with Glibmess on you or the actual intent of selling your soul. Make sure you did something very very good and brave recently. Why do you want to sell your soul? Your wife left u for a high ranking official and u want to destroy everything? Yeah sounds reasonable.

Balors are demons. It's the Devils who go for the soul-purchasing.

Demons tend towards "Rip you limb from limb now, because it amuses me."

[Voyager_I]

thats is not my intent, its just after reading the majority fo threads on GiTP about randomg everythings it seems that the majority of people play extremely high optimized characters.

I want the CRs to relfect that, with the WBL that charatcers get and the official rules being ' every magic itme in existance is availbe as long as you have the gold'

You seem to be confusing builds people come up with online (specifically, people who are sufficiently interested in optimization to spend their free time discuss optimization online) as solutions to specific problems with how people actually play the game around the table.


So if building 1st level characters that have 2 9th level spells per day is the norm, then how can those same peopel say that CR 9 Balor is wrong?" i mena you have 2-4 ( depending on if you have 1 or 2 casters) that you can cast per day.

so its ok to be a 1st level character casitng multiple 9th levels spells a day, that is 1005 acceptable. but make a Balor CR9 is blasphemy?

Nobody actually plays like this, and no sane DM would allow it if they tried outside of games where they players were specifically expected to break the game wide open. The worst you're likely to come up against are Wizards with good spell selections and Druids that know how to use their class features.

A typical 9th-level party that wasn't purpose-built to kill Balors will automatically die to Blasphemy on the first round of combat, quite possibly before any of them ever even get to take an action.

[candycorn]

Note: If attempting to solo a Balor, note that the following should probably be assumed.

If a character casts Assay Spell Resistance in a round, the Balor will identify the spell as such (Spellcraft +30).

Given this, and Greater Dispel Magic at will, the chance of using Assay Spell Resistance on Round 2 is... somewhat low.

[Golden Ladybug]

thats is not my intent, its just after reading the majority fo threads on GiTP about randomg everythings it seems that the majority of people play extremely high optimized characters.

I want the CRs to relfect that, with the WBL that charatcers get and the official rules being ' every magic itme in existance is availbe as long as you have the gold'

So if building 1st level characters that have 2 9th level spells per day is the norm, then how can those same peopel say that CR 9 Balor is wrong?" i mena you have 2-4 ( depending on if you have 1 or 2 casters) that you can cast per day.

so its ok to be a 1st level character casitng multiple 9th levels spells a day, that is 1005 acceptable. but make a Balor CR9 is blasphemy?

Balors have such a high CR not because they can't be killed until level 20, but because they are a powerful and versatile that you aren't likely to be able to beat until that point, unless you utilise an uncommon level of system mastery; they have a boatload of powerful abilities that they can keep on using, and using, and using. They aren't slouches outside of those abilities either.

Blasphemy, Telekinesis, Dominate Monster and Power Word Stun are things that can end encounters just by themselves, even when they're limited to even 1/day. Any number of builds from the Test of Spite fired off Blasphemys at ridiculous CRs as their win button, A Ghost Master of the Unseen Hand could fill you full of Great Swords as a Standard Action, an Enchanter can take control of your character at a ridiculously DC and Stunning takes you out of the fight. These are big things.

And the Balor gets all of them, at will.

Not only that, but it also gets Greater Teleport, also at will. They can, if they like, escape from any bad situation that doesn't outright kill them. You can't run away from them, because they're able to catch you no matter how far you move. They can pick you up and then drop you into space somewhere if they wanted. They get some really good defences and their 1/days aren't bad at all.

Not only that, but they have some crazy equipment, very good skills, good BAB and Saves, and they can fly. This is a serious threat if you're not prepared for it.

The Cleric I talked about, and in fact, any Cleric with decent Dex that owns a Rod of Lesser Maximise, and a method of casting two spell in a round could do it. They just need to crib a Warning Dagger and bum a Nerveskitter off of a Wizard, and then browse their spell list and pick out Shivering Touch, Spectral Hand and Sign. Then they just have to fire off those Maximised Shivering Touches, and that is the Balor down and out.

But that says something about the Cleric's Spell List, and the power of Full Casters, not about how easy it is to kill a Balor. It requires a degree of System Mastery that does not exist in casual players of D&D. If a level 9 party with a Blaster Wizard, Healbot Cleric, TWF Rouge and a Sword and Board Fighter came up against a Balor, the Balor would win. 100/100 times. But if those same PCs met that Balor at Level 20, suddenly its a different story. The CR system has some huge problems, but for the most part its in the right neighbourhood of how challenging the creature would pose (Of course, some are determined by throwing darts at a board, but you can't have everything)

[candycorn]

Actually, paralyzing the balor isn't enough. SLA's have no somatic component, so it can still teleport out, ideally to somewhere safe, where it waits to recover, then UMD's a scroll to gain immunity to ability damage, and does round 2.

The problem is that your kill methods are so one dimensional that, unless you outright kill it in one shot, or keep it from fleeing long enough to finish it off, then it can defend against them, and easily.

[Voyager_I]

Actually, paralyzing the balor isn't enough. SLA's have no somatic component, so it can still teleport out, ideally to somewhere safe, where it waits to recover, then UMD's a scroll to gain immunity to ability damage, and does round 2.

The problem is that your kill methods are so one dimensional that, unless you outright kill it in one shot, or keep it from fleeing long enough to finish it off, then it can defend against them, and easily.

This is also assuming you fight the Balor on even or favorable terms, and it is being played as a more or less conventional opponent. Given that Balors are immortal beings with beyond-genius levels of intelligence and wisdom and no lawful inhibitions, there's no real reason to expect them to play "fair"...and they have some very nice tools to work with.

[candycorn]

It isn't unlikely to expect it to have Dominated minions, but if the fight begins with them, they add to the CR of the fight.

[Voyager_I]

There's that. I was also just thinking that the Balor is fully equipped to Greater Teleport on top of the Wizard when he's in the bathroom while wearing items that make him immune to whatever his favorite tricks happen to be. They have high enough UMD to use whatever they need, enough resources to realistically get their hands on it, and strong enough social skills to find out what they need to know about parties strong (and presumably accomplished) enough to be thinking about Balors.

I mean, you can play them like any other monster and they're still pretty scary, but they have the potential to be so much more. I'm talking Mama Black Dragon material...although perhaps this is a bit off-topic.

[Golden Ladybug]

I mean, you can play them like any other monster and they're still pretty scary, but they have the potential to be so much more. I'm talking Mama Black Dragon material...although perhaps this is a bit off-topic.

Thats another thing; Tucker's Kobolds work because they are an enemy that was played in such a way that maximised their meagre strengths and minimised their glaring weaknesses. They had little ability to face powerful enemies head on, so they didn't; they hid, and their hindered, and they hit their enemies with as many traps and snares as could reasonably be expected. They used every dirty trick in the book, and defeated enemies that were much more powerful than they were.

Tucker's Kobolds numbered around 10-ish? 10 Kobolds played intelligently was not a CR 2 1/2 Encounter.

[Coidzor]

They also depended upon the players not being able to be arsed to deal with 'em properly.

[candycorn]

There's that. I was also just thinking that the Balor is fully equipped to Greater Teleport on top of the Wizard when he's in the bathroom while wearing items that make him immune to whatever his favorite tricks happen to be. They have high enough UMD to use whatever they need, enough resources to realistically get their hands on it, and strong enough social skills to find out what they need to know about parties strong (and presumably accomplished) enough to be thinking about Balors.

I mean, you can play them like any other monster and they're still pretty scary, but they have the potential to be so much more. I'm talking Mama Black Dragon material...although perhaps this is a bit off-topic.

Gather Information is really the thing they'd need... but Diplomacy and Bluff, at high levels, is a strong point. Built into a campaign, it should have a network of creatures that think they're allies with it, but are really just pawns. It should have dominated minions in effective locations. It should be able to go into a town with a Hat of Disguise, looking like a goliath or some other similarly large creature, and afflict two or three powerful people with insanity, then leave minions in the town to report what happens.

They're not likely going to be long term big picture planners, what with the chaotic and all, but they'll be able to cause a lot of chaos and leave players confused.

That, however, goes beyond the numbers, and beyond the tactical scene.

[Coidzor]

Assuming it wasn't just gated in or summoned with its pants around its ankles or they didn't manage to catch it while it was on business completely unrelated to them on another plane or even bumping into it on its home plane while on their way to steal something from its boss...

[ngilop]

I mean a character you would use in a game, that you were playing with your friends and a couple of new people.


this was the single most important line in the entirety of my first post and EVERYBODY created charatcers that were FAR from then what they go on to say are 'normal characters' used in 'actual gameplay'

again as in my previous post, not one person tried to make 'normal everyday character used in actual gameplay' and defeat the Balor they went with 1st level casters casting 2 9th level spells and other such.

and Tucker's Kobolds have no CR as that was pre 3rd ed anyways so using that as an example is moot.

maybe I need to spend a day to re-do my propasl and put down EXACT rules?

[candycorn]

The way your original post reads is that you want the most optimized characters that aren't optimized. I get that you're looking for a window, but, without clear parameters, it's hard to do.

[ngilop]

WHile I do enjoy most of teh responses, none of them are what I wanted, mostly becuase when I read my original post I left out one very important word. My apologies everybody.
here is the rule with the left out word bolded and enlarged.

Beat him at the earliest level you can, NO infinite loops, outright rule violations, crazy use of RAW ( as it rawr I heal by drowning and a vigilante get 20 3rd level spells etc etc) so No pun-pun or the other 'Theoretical Optimization' characters or rules.

I mean a character you would use in a game, that you were playing with your friends and a couple of new people.

so maybe I shoudl put in no extra cheesey cheese, loose rules interpretations, completley ignoring rules intent.
Again this is NOT an exercise in how crazy powerful you can make a charcter via TO, but an actual character you would use at say.. gen con, or if people at your local gaming shp started playing D&D and said " hey will you play with us so when we do something wrong you can show us what is up?".

But what I am getting from this is that my CR 15 designation for a Balor is off and it should be a CR 9 monster. as that seems to be around where most have they characters at.

I know and that is why on my second post I added in the missing word, as above on my quote.

I know its hard to do via text without tone of voice or facial expression, but sometimes hazarding a guess as to the poster's intent is worth it.

[Golden Ladybug]

this was the single most important line in the entirety of my first post and EVERYBODY created charatcers that were FAR from then what they go on to say are 'normal characters' used in 'actual gameplay'

again as in my previous post, not one person tried to make 'normal everyday character used in actual gameplay' and defeat the Balor they went with 1st level casters casting 2 9th level spells and other such.

and Tucker's Kobolds have no CR as that was pre 3rd ed anyways so using that as an example is moot.

maybe I need to spend a day to re-do my propasl and put down EXACT rules?

Eh, I'd use that Cleric in a game, even with Necropolitan on there. The Concept is just riddled with ideas; An Undead Priest who draws power from the very concept of unlife and uses their skills as a Manipulator and Divine Power to shape the world as they see fit, wielding a Rod that grants them great power and using their own ability to control their fellow Undead monstrosities as well as to grant them incredible spellcasting power, far beyond what they would normally be able to achieve. One day, they are called upon by fearful kings and rulers, begging for his aid to defend them from a Demonic Creature raging havoc. With a small amount of preparation, and a trip to a likeminded Wizard to gain the tools that he would need to defeat this beast (Paying for a Contingent Dimensional Anchor), and a week later, the Priest confronts the Monster and lays it low.

Just because a Character is powerful, doesn't mean it won't see use. CoDzillas see play, and this is a mild enough example of one. Of course, there are much more powerful and cheesy means of defeating this Balor, but they too are not necessarily exempt from seeing play. I ran a high powered game for my players, and the Versatile Generalist was one of the things used. In the context of the campaign, that was what was expected, and everyone had fun.

The Stormwind Fallacy is a Fallacy for a reason; with great power, there is not an inverse decrease in roleplay, characterisation or fun. You can have PCs who are capable of soloing a Balor with preparation at level 9, but it takes a level of system mastery that is out of the reach of many. For some players, the Wizard that casts Fireball for 10d6 at merely level 9 is the height of power. For me, a Cleric with DMM: Quicken Spell who knows what to grab from their vast spell list to be effective is merely mid-op.

But, if you want to re-evaluate the rules you have in place to better find what you're looking for, I'd recommend you do so. Clarifying the issue to get the data you're looking for is the best thing you can do to get good results :smallsmile:

[candycorn]

Contingent Dimensional Anchor isn't quite as effective as you'd think. When the trigger is met, the spell takes effect on the bearer (or, in the case of area spells, must be centered on the bearer's square). Not a random creature within 170 feet.

For a Contingent spell to work, the contingent spell must either be able to take effect on the bearer, or be an area effect capable of being centered on the bearer.

Dimensional Anchor is neither.

On a side note, said cleric has 44 HP, at level 9.

Even if you could Contingency a Dim Anchor, and even if it did penetrate the SR, and even if you nail it with a high enough shivering touch to paralyze it, nothing stops the Balor from using greater dispel to negate the anchor, a quickened telekinesis to disarm/grapple/trip the CDGer, and a followup teleport the next round.

The idea isn't thought out enough to be reliable. And round 2 is going to include immunity to whatever trick you used in round 1, which means round 2 goes decidedly to the balor.

[Golden Ladybug]

Fair enough. If I wear to seriously consider soloing a Balor, I probably wouldn't do it at level 9. Style Points aside, its not reliable, like you said. The gap in versatility and power is too great, and every plan I can enact with my level 9 build will be flawed in some way (not least of all because I'm only devoting a cursory amount of effort to defeating it, nor thinking about all the ways the Balor could retaliate)

Oh well, can't be helped. It is a Balor afterall :smallbiggrin:

ngilop, when you revise the rules of the challenge, I'd love to give it another go, working within the parameters you set down, rather than throwing ideas at the wall until something sticks.

[Tr011]

I think a good rogue-wizard can do it.
Spellthief 1/Wizard X/Uncanny Trickster Y is a pretty strong build with Master Spellthief, Practised Spellcaster (Spellthief), Practised Spellcaster (Wizard) nets you a total CL of ECL+5. If you get CL boosts from items, they will most likely affect your wizard AND spellthief CL, so you will get doubled bonuses from CL boosts. Pump the CL and cast Nondetection, so true seeing won't affect you while you use Greater Invis to sneak him up. Flat-Footed Touch AC is 13 (due to unholy aura). Another important item will be Ring of Enduring Arcana. Use Dimensional Anchor to hold him and then kill him using split rays.

[candycorn]

I think a good rogue-wizard can do it.
Spellthief 1/Wizard X/Uncanny Trickster Y is a pretty strong build with Master Spellthief, Practised Spellcaster (Spellthief), Practised Spellcaster (Wizard) nets you a total CL of ECL+5. If you get CL boosts from items, they will most likely affect your wizard AND spellthief CL, so you will get doubled bonuses from CL boosts. Pump the CL and cast Nondetection, so true seeing won't affect you while you use Greater Invis to sneak him up. Flat-Footed Touch AC is 13 (due to unholy aura). Another important item will be Ring of Enduring Arcana. Use Dimensional Anchor to hold him and then kill him using split rays.

Nondetection doesn't do squat to True Seeing. Rules are that True Seeing affects the caster, not the target (so the Balor). Thus, divination is not being attempted against the caster. Instead, divination is being used on the Balor, which lets the balor see differently. Nondetection only works on divinations attempted against the warded creature.

Spot DC 20 detects the presence of invisible creatures in the area. Balor Spot check is... +38. So, get within 30 feet, and it will know you're there, via mundane senses. So even if interpretation IS in your favor, you're still not getting within 30 feet without being detected. Add on that DC 40 lets you pinpoint the location of invisible creatures, and... yeah. 95% chance of knowing where you are whenever you take a step.

It also has Listen +38, so that also is an obstacle.

Further, you're misinterpreting Master Spellthief. Spellthief Levels stack with levels of other arcane spellcasting classes. That is not the same as "add all your caster levels together from these classes". It's "add all your class levels together, then apply modifiers."

So, if you have 1 level of spellthief, and 5 levels of wizard, you are arcane caster level 6 for all spells. If you have practiced spellcaster in both classes, you are arcane caster level 6 for all spells (1spellthief class level +5 wizard class level +4 practiced spellcaster, max 6). If you have an item that boosts your caster level by 1, then you are arcane caster level 7 (1 spellthief class level + 5 wizard class level + 4, max 6 = 6 +1 = 7).

Hopefully, this clears up a common misconception between class levels and caster level.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Assuming an optimized character that is entirely within the realms of the rules as written and interpreted, I wouldn't do it with anything less than a level 15 character:

Human Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10 (banning illusion); you could make this a necropolitan or neopolitan or whatever, but I can't be arsed to look that up
Attribute Scores (32 PB): 8 STR, 16 DEX, 14 CON, 18 INT, 8 WIS, 8 CHA
Feats and Ability Increases:
1) Invisible Spell
H) Improved Initiative
3) Empower Spell
4) Dexterity +1
W5) Maximize Spell
6) Quicken Spell
I1) Split Ray
8) Dexterity +1
9) Arcane Thesis (enervation)
I4) Twin Spell
12) Spell Penetration, Intelligence +1 (level up off the balor, want this for 9th-level spells! Aurai!)
I7) Black Lore of Moil
15) Fell Drain
I10) Fell Animate

Relevant magic items:
+1 Staff of Warning (and other stuff)
Belt of Battle
Headband of Intellect +6
Bracers of Dexterity +6
Cloak of Resistance +5
Various and sundry lesser items (items that have contingent healing effects, for example, would be welcomed), and whatever else I don't have the imagination to think up at 1:30 AM on a tight schedule

Relevant spells:
The usual litany of buffs and preparation spells, plus
Nerveskitter
Assay Spell Resistance
Enervation

Assuming the balor does not have prebuffs (as per the SRD entry), aside from his "always-on" effects (Unholy Aura, True Seeing).

As an immediate action, cast Nerveskitter for the initiative roll. Your initiative modifier is now +23 (+7 DEX modifier, +5 untyped from Nerveskitter, +4 untyped from Improved Initiative, +2 untyped from Belt of Battle, +5 insight from your staff's Warning property), so you have it beat by 12 as initiative modifiers go. Not only do you have to roll low, but it has to roll high (for instance, even if you roll a 1, it has to roll a 14 or better, since you have the better modifier and thus win in a tie; if you roll an 8 or higher, it cannot win initiative).

On your turn, use your move action (you have no swift actions) to activate the Belt of Battle, spending two charges to gain a standard action (I see no reason why you can't expend a move action to perform a swift action, just like you would a standard action to perform a move action). If this seems like an unfair workaround, then the build still works if you don't use Nerveskitter--you just lose that extra bit of edge on the initiative checks (which you might need to cover with now-relevant buffs).

Use the extra standard action you've given yourself to cast Assay Spell Resistance, increasing your effective caster level to beat a monster's spell resistance by 10 for your next spell.

Using your normal standard action, cast Black Lore (-1) Invisible (-1) Empowered (+0) Split (+0) Fell Drained (+0) Fell Animated (+1) Maximized (+1) Twinned (+2) Enervation to deal (the equivalent of) 4+1d2+1 negative levels, plus 2d6 negative energy damage, four times. Your caster level modifier for the purpose of defeating spell resistance is +28 (15 from straight caster levels, +1 from Arcane Thesis, +2 from Spell Penetration, +10 from Assay Spell Resistance), and, assuming non-fractional BAB, your to-hit with each ray, not counting any buffs that I haven't explicitly mentioned (which would be none), is +11 (+2 BAB from your five levels in Wizard, +5 BAB from your ten levels in Incantatrix, +4 DEX modifier), against the balor's flat-footed touch AC of 10. All four should connect without the need for rolls, since you beat both spell resistance and AC on a natural 1, but they may be asked for anyway (for those zany auto-fails on 1s). If so, your chance of defeating the balor outright in this turn diminishes ever-so-slightly every time you run the risk of rolling a 1 (and incurring an auto-fail), as you need all four to connect, but if they do, they will dean an absolute minimum of 20 + the dice rolls from Empower in negative levels (each ray should inflict damage from the Black Lore of Moil, which should thus incur a Fell Drain as a result of doing damage). Since a balor, devoid of Hit Dice advancement, has only 20 Hit Dice, the negative levels should be enough to kill him outright.

If, for whatever reason, it's not (you see the balor has Death Ward cast upon itself, or some other form of negative energy drain, or something of the sort, and you needed to dispel that first, or one of your Enervation rays missed, or something of that sort), or if Belt of Battle is ruled such that you can't waste a move action to activate it, cast Celerity (or Greater Celerity) and try again with another firing.

It's worth noting that I'm not breaking any rules with this build, nor am I performing any infinite loops or acts of complete and total hootinannery, but I am abusing one rule as written (and stated to work as such by CustServ) by abusing Arcane Thesis, and I am using a tier 1 class with a tier <1 PrC, and I'm doing all of this at level 15, and I'm still playing rocket tag (just with homing rockets). It would be possible without the Arcane Thesis abuse if you traded out your -1 metamagics for metamagic reducers like Metamagic School Focus (Necromancy) and the like and just bumped it up to a higher spell level where necessary (even if you just stripped out the -1s, it would still be a 7th-level spell, although if you ruled that Arcane Thesis couldn't make Empower, Fell Drain or Split Ray a +0 adjustment, which is entirely within the stated purpose of the feat, then you would both need reducers and to cut a single metamagic feat from the list), but it would still be very cheesy.

If you fail, for whatever reason, you're still a level 15 wizard, with 8th-level spells and decent saves, so you should probably be able to swing it with some backup strategy assuming you pre-buffed well (I made no assumptions that any pre-buffs were in effect for the purpose of snapping into a negative-level Slim Jim, so assume that all buffs were prepared for the "in the event of failure" situation).

There you have it, folks: My "defeat a balor" entry.

I wouldn't get any lower-op than that for a solo entry, because I wouldn't want to risk anything short of absolute victory.

EDIT: I forgot the Incantatrix 10 bonus feat, so I added Fell Animate, because I couldn't think of anything better. You now insta-gib the balor with a 6th-level spell, but animate him as a zombie who automatically falls under your control in the next round. Neat, huh? :smallsmile:

[Ingus]

As far as I understand, the initial purpose is to check the CR of the Balor.
So one may consider alot of entry.

Mine is unoptimized. Bard 16.
Trick: go melee, endure Flaming Body and cast Irresistible Dance.
Full attack him for the next two rounds, add in two AoO, then cast again.
Repeat ad lib

A cleric-wizard team with maximized+empowered touch of idiocy and Dominate Monster from domination domain may enslave a Balor at level 13.

The real fix IMO is to lower CR to around 15 and give Balor immunity to mind affecting effects

[Zombimode]

There you have it, folks: My "defeat a balor" entry.


Two issues:
1. Trading Move Action to Swift Action. You are not given the opportunity to do this by the rules. Its not implied in any way either. Quite the contrary in fact, as it is stated numerous times in the SRD that you have only one swift action per turn. Period. This makes this move clearly a house rule. Now the question is: is it a good housrule? TBH, I dont think so. The opportunity to trade the move action against a second swift action is a HUGE boon to swift action using classes. This would break action economy even further (now you can cast 4 spells in a round, using only your normal actions: 2 swift, 1 standard, 1 quickened). It would create an easy infinite loop with White Raven Tactics. Initiators in general would benefit greatly from this (ie. now you can replenish Moment of Perfect Mind immediately in your next round).

2. Envervation is Close range, that is 65 ft. if my math is correct. The encounter would have to start at an appropiate distance to enfold like you have described, which is NOT a given (last but not least thanks to the 120 ft. True Seeing).

But yeah, given the right circumstances, this character would actually have chance.

[Zombimode]

Edit: crap, I double posted? I meant to edit, but it turns out I hit the quote button. Sorry.


As far as I understand, the initial purpose is to check the CR of the Balor.
So one may consider alot of entry.

Mine is unoptimized. Bard 16.
Trick: go melee, endure Flaming Body and cast Irresistible Dance.
Full attack him for the next two rounds, add in two AoO, then cast again.
Repeat ad lib

A cleric-wizard team with maximized+empowered touch of idiocy and Dominate Monster from domination domain may enslave a Balor at level 13.

The real fix IMO is to lower CR to around 15 and give Balor immunity to mind affecting effects

:smallsigh:
Again, those ideas require the balor to just stand there and twiddle its thumps.

Bard:
How does the Bard survive the first turn? How does he manage to get close to the Balor without beeing blasted and stunned? Why does the Balor not fly?

Cleric-wizard team:
The Balor flies, has a Will save of +23, True Seeing, and Blasphemy paralyzes them, no save. How do they even hope to defeat the balor again?

The real fix is leave the balor at CR 20. Its fine. It can challange a wide range of party compositions.
I bet for most parties at level 20 a single Balor is plenty to challange them how an EL = APL encounter is supposed to challange: that is an expected victory for the group at a 20-25% loss of daily ressources. It wouldnt suprise me if the Balor actualy manages to be much more dangerous then this for many parties.
Really folks, there may be creatures that are better CR-adjusted then the Balor, maybe he would be better at CR 19 or 18. But in the grand scheme of ill-adjusted CRs? The balor is, if anything, a pretty minor offender.
Take a look at the Ogre Mage for comprasion. Now THATS a missplaced CR.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Two issues:
1. Trading Move Action to Swift Action. You are not given the opportunity to do this by the rules. Its not implied in any way either. Quite the contrary in fact, as it is stated numerous times in the SRD that you have only one swift action per turn. Period. This makes this move clearly a house rule. Now the question is: is it a good housrule? TBH, I dont think so. The opportunity to trade the move action against a second swift action is a HUGE boon to swift action using classes. This would break action economy even further (now you can cast 4 spells in a round, using only your normal actions: 2 swift, 1 standard, 1 quickened). It would create an easy infinite loop with White Raven Tactics. Initiators in general would benefit greatly from this (ie. now you can replenish Moment of Perfect Mind immediately in your next round).

As stated prior, if this trade wouldn't be allowed, then you cast Nerveskitter as an immediate action before (during) your initiative roll, Assay Spell Resistance on your turn, Celerity at the start of the balor's turn, and Black Lore (-1) Invisible (-1) Empowered (+0) Split (+0) Fell Drained (+0) Fell Animated (+1) Maximized (+1) Twinned (+2) Enervation with the standard action Celerity gives you. Or, also as stated prior, you can forego Nerveskitter so as to use the belt on your turn (but you lose almost half the difference in your initiative modifiers to do so, beating the balor's initiative modifier by only 7). Either one works with only slight, mostly semantic differences in execution.

With this build, the +2 untyped bonus to initiative checks is actually the piece de resistance of the Belt of Battle anyway; the ability to spend points to gain free actions is just the soup or salad that accompanies your entree of awesome (and even then, only if you allow it).

I confess that when coming up with the build initially, I didn't even think to use the Belt of Battle in this fashion, for the same reason you've just mentioned; its legality is questionable and questioned (and certainly not a given), and therefore isn't safe for the purposes of this challenge.


2. Envervation is Close range, that is 65 ft. if my math is correct. The encounter would have to start at an appropiate distance to enfold like you have described, which is NOT a given (last but not least thanks to the 120 ft. True Seeing).

There's room for Enlarge Spell, which doubles the range out. I stated openly that I forgot to include a feat or two, and was already just tacking things onto it for bonus points by the end anyway. Removing Fell Animate to add Enlarge Spell not only reduces the spell level, but provides a meaningful mechanical benefit toward defeating the balor, whereas Fell Animate didn't (I just got lazy and thought to myself, "wouldn't it be nice if you got a balor zombie for free off this deal?").

In other words:

Both issues, while legitimate, have no bearing on the success of the build (just on the assessment of the mental continuity of my frazzled, sleep-deprived brain). The changes needed to overcome them are almost entirely cosmetic (at the worst, I'm stripping away the air fresheners to make room for giant, fuzzy dice).

[Zombimode]

Both issues, while legitimate, have no bearing on the success of the build (just on the assessment of the mental continuity of my frazzled, sleep-deprived brain). The changes needed to overcome them are almost entirely cosmetic (at the worst, I'm stripping away the air fresheners to make room for giant, fuzzy dice).

Ok, convinced. But the caveats you brought up yourself still stand: it still requires a Tier 1 class with one of the most powerfull (in the Top 5 maybe?) PrC while playing rocket tag. Thats probably not the best starting point for reevalueating CRs.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Ok, convinced. But the caveats you brought up yourself still stand: it still requires a Tier 1 class with one of the most powerfull (in the Top 5 maybe?) PrC while playing rocket tag. Thats probably not the best starting point for reevalueating CRs.

You are absolutely correct! I created the built to prove that effortlessly soloing a balor (the only roll that matters is the initiative roll, after all) in an entirely rules-legal fashion at X level does not make a balor CR X. I would never in a million years say "I can solo a balor at level 15, therefore a balor is a CR15 creature".

I could create a whirling frenzy lion totem orc barbarian who can solo a dire wolf at level 1; does that mean that I think dire wolves should ever be used against a level 1 party?

Hell no.

[ngilop]

WHile I do enjoy most of teh responses, none of them are what I wanted, mostly becuase when I read my original post I left out one very important word. My apologies everybody.
here is the rule with the left out word bolded and enlarged.

Beat him at the earliest level you can, NO infinite loops, outright rule violations, crazy use of RAW ( as it rawr I heal by drowning and a vigilante get 20 3rd level spells etc etc) so No pun-pun or the other 'Theoretical Optimization' characters or rules.

I mean a character you would use in a game, that you were playing with your friends and a couple of new people.

so maybe I shoudl put in no extra cheesey cheese, loose rules interpretations, completley ignoring rules intent.
Again this is NOT an exercise in how crazy powerful you can make a charcter via TO, but an actual character you would use at say.. gen con, or if people at your local gaming shp started playing D&D and said " hey will you play with us so when we do something wrong you can show us what is up?".

But what I am getting from this is that my CR 15 designation for a Balor is off and it should be a CR 9 monster. as that seems to be around where most have they characters at.

I know and that is why on my second post I added in the missing word, as above on my quote.

I know its hard to do via text without tone of voice or facial expression, but sometimes hazarding a guess as to the poster's intent is worth it.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I know and that is why on my second post I added in the missing word, as above on my quote.

I know its hard to do via text without tone of voice or facial expression, but sometimes hazarding a guess as to the poster's intent is worth it.

None of which either of my builds (Level 15 Wizard > balor or Level 1 Barbarian > dire wolf) have. They are entirely within the constraints of your revised challenge, and neither is explicitly a balor-killer (a metamagic-heavy Wizard remains a metamagic-heavy Wizard before and after the balor fight, and the Barbarian remains a Barbarian after the dire wolf fight... Assuming he lives, of course).

It's just that the stated purpose of the challenge is ridiculous; at no point do you encounter a situation where the capacity to solo a creature is an accurate measure of its challenge rating. There's a reason that CR-calculating formulas are created off of the abilities of monsters, and not off of the players' capacity to defeat them.

FYI: I've used both players in a game, too (the Wizard/Incantatrix was my first character; the Barbarian my last). The only difference is that, in the case of the former, I focused on Orb of Cold instead of Enervation (killing things with direct damage and Energy Substitution [fire]/Searing Spell to bypass multiple different energy resistances), and in the case of the latter, I was a Wood Elf.

EDIT: And let me state just one more time, to make sure I've stated everything clearly (I probably haven't; it's 5:30 am and I'm pretty much regretting my decision to come off the DoE spring break with an all-nighter to regulate my sleep schedule): It's not that the parameters of your challenge are flawed; it's the premise that's flawed. You can scale back the optimization as much as you'd like ("no classes in the upper three tiers, no ACFs that advance a class forward a tier, no +LA races, no Power Attack multipliers, yada yada..."), but you will never end up with an effective metric for how powerful a creature is based on the capacity of the players to come up with something to take it on. Judge the creatures on their individual merits; the time-honored formula has served many people well in this regard. (If only I could find the blasted thing...)

[Tr011]

Cleric-wizard team:
The Balor flies, has a Will save of +23, True Seeing, and Blasphemy paralyzes them, no save. How do they even hope to defeat the balor again?


Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability + Teleport is one way to get to the balor without using any action at all.

[ngilop]

so.. did anybody else notice that my one post was a doublepost.. 8 hours later?

anyways.. here we go with the new rules

1) its a party of 4, consiting of a melee, skill-monkey, divine, and arcane class
2) You can do low optimization, (i.e you make character that are competant in their roles, but not overly powerful, prime example of the latter just about every character submission so far, or any one charatcer than can 1 hit kill the Balor)
3) no Theoreticall Optimization tricks
4) no infinite loops
5) no faulty/loose rules interpretation
6) no magic item compendium
7) no shivering touch ( look, it just waaaay too good of a spell for 2nd level, name 1 other 2nd levle that can take out a dragon?)
8) No cheddary cheese builds
9) no tricks to get above ECL WBL, (you take a 13th level party each one gets 110,000 gold)
10) No extra experience for crafting or endless exp for crafting
11) this is not a oh we all know we are going to fight a Balor out in an open plane, its a "la la la la" turn dungeon corner and "ffuuu.....!" fight, but you are all 100% of your abilities.
12) and lastly the party consist of good align heroes.

13) I am probably leaving out a bunch of rules that people are going to exploit, so.. my last rules is, be a gentleman/lady about it and try to keep with my intentions of the rules

[Voyager_I]

Assuming your typical, not-especially-optimized adventuring party, CR 20 is probably reasonable. CR 15 is definitely too low, since characters up to level 15 are still automatically paralyzed if they get caught in a Blasphemy. In a "turn the corner" scenario, that likely means a TPK as soon as the Balor gets to take an action.

[Tokiko Mima]

this was the single most important line in the entirety of my first post and EVERYBODY created charatcers that were FAR from then what they go on to say are 'normal characters' used in 'actual gameplay'

again as in my previous post, not one person tried to make 'normal everyday character used in actual gameplay' and defeat the Balor they went with 1st level casters casting 2 9th level spells and other such.

*feels ignored* :smallfrown:


so.. did anybody else notice that my one post was a doublepost.. 8 hours later?

anyways.. here we go with the new rules

1) its a party of 4, consiting of a melee, skill-monkey, divine, and arcane class
2) You can do low optimization, (i.e you make character that are competant in their roles, but not overly powerful, prime example of the latter just about every character submission so far, or any one charatcer than can 1 hit kill the Balor)
3) no Theoreticall Optimization tricks
4) no infinite loops
5) no faulty/loose rules interpretation
6) no magic item compendium
7) no shivering touch ( look, it just waaaay too good of a spell for 2nd level, name 1 other 2nd levle that can take out a dragon?)
8) No cheddary cheese builds
9) no tricks to get above ECL WBL, (you take a 13th level party each one gets 110,000 gold)
10) No extra experience for crafting or endless exp for crafting
11) this is not a oh we all know we are going to fight a Balor out in an open plane, its a "la la la la" turn dungeon corner and "ffuuu.....!" fight, but you are all 100% of your abilities.
12) and lastly the party consist of good align heroes.

13) I am probably leaving out a bunch of rules that people are going to exploit, so.. my last rules is, be a gentleman/lady about it and try to keep with my intentions of the rules

K, I'll bite.

A cleric and three Chaotic Good warlocks of any race, (11th level or above, and at 15+ they will devour the Balor). Warlocks have the standard Hellfire Glaivelock loadout along with Vitriolic Blast, and the Quicken/Empower/Maximize SLA feats. Cleric buffs them with typical defense and offense spells, and focuses on keeping the warlocks up. Combat should end fast enough that the Balor never gets to its 'escape and teleport out' part of the combat. If two or three warlocks end up in melee, the Balor will die in that round.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Well, before the new rules came up, I was going to suggest a hide/move silently focused character with Darkstalker and Mindsight. Since you're hiding as you're traversing the dungeon/the abyss/wherever else a friggin' Balor might be, and Mindsight will alert you of the Balor's location from 100', it will take (at least) a -10 to spot and listen checks, meaning you have to get hide and move silently modifiers up to +47 in order to absolutely guarantee going undetected, less than that if you're okay with a gamble. If you know you're going to fight something soon, this is achievable very early (potion of camouflage + psionic tattoo of chameleon gives you a +20 for starters). If you can't have minutes-long buffs up, however, you can still guarantee success by somewhere in the mid teens* if not earlier. That'll get you the jump on the Balor in most cases.

Then you just cram that hide/MS optimization into a spellwarp sniper with wings of flurry (or frost breath for wizard entry), assay spell resistance, and true strike (+ Arcane Fusion for Sorc entry), and the Balor never gets to act while you whittle him down to nothing with no-save daze + damage.

In a normal, relatively unoptimized party that has to be good aligned (not neutral?), you might as well look at Jozan, Tordek, Mialee and the rest. I think they can down him at around level 20 without a TPK, if the Balor plays down to their level.

*Looking at Move Silently, which is likely going to be the bottleneck since it's harder to pump than hide. Basis is a Dark Strongheart Halfling, since they're just swell.

Bonus = X Ranks + Y Competence Item + Z Dexterity + 2 Circumstance (Tool) + 8 racial + M (Miscellaneous Bonuses)

Miscellaneous includes Muffling Shadowsilk Padded Armor for another +4, a Collar of Perpetual Attendance constantly Aiding Another for +2, and applying Softfoot on an hourly basis for another +1.

At ECL 2, X=4,Y=0,Z~4,M=0, so you have a +14 bonus; nowhere near enough.
At ECL 11, X=13,Y~10,Z~5,M=5, so you have a +39 bonus; gamble territory.
At ECL 14, X=16,Y~12,Z~6,M=7, so you have a +47 bonus, yay.

[Lonely Tylenol]

so.. did anybody else notice that my one post was a doublepost.. 8 hours later?

:smallconfused:

I did now.

Whoops.

In all defense, it was 5 am on a sleepless night... I was more than a little gone. =p

[Zombimode]

A cleric and three Chaotic Good warlocks of any race, (11th level or above, and at 15+ they will devour the Balor). Warlocks have the standard Hellfire Glaivelock loadout along with Vitriolic Blast, and the Quicken/Empower/Maximize SLA feats. Cleric buffs them with typical defense and offense spells, and focuses on keeping the warlocks up. Combat should end fast enough that the Balor never gets to its 'escape and teleport out' part of the combat. If two or three warlocks end up in melee, the Balor will die in that round.

This needs more data.

How do they get arround the SR?
What do you mean by "end fast enough"? Before the Balors action in the 2nd turn?
What circumstances do you assume for the encounter (like "Party kicks in a dungeon door: they see a Balor" or "Open Plain (DM rolls for distance), there is a Balor some 100 meters ahead of the party")?

[Golden Ladybug]

so.. did anybody else notice that my one post was a doublepost.. 8 hours later?

anyways.. here we go with the new rules

1) its a party of 4, consiting of a melee, skill-monkey, divine, and arcane class

Excellent, I love building parties.


2) You can do low optimization, (i.e you make character that are competant in their roles, but not overly powerful, prime example of the latter just about every character submission so far, or any one charatcer than can 1 hit kill the Balor)

Define "competent". Also, define "Low Optimisation"

Because based on what you said, we seem to have different definitions on what constitutes "overly powerful", as I wouldn't consider the Uberchargers, the Cleric or the Unseen Seer (without the misinterpretation of Master Spellthief in effect) as anything more obscene the mid-level optimisation. I would allow any of them in a game that I was DMing. Of course, the Killer Gnome, Versatile Generalist or Incantatrix would be a bit more iffy, but I'd probably let them in too if there was a Gentleman's Agreement in place to not set the game on fire and dance on the ashes.


3) no Theoreticall Optimization tricks
4) no infinite loops
5) no faulty/loose rules interpretation

With you so far.


6) no magic item compendium

Um...why? The MiC has some silly things in it (the Amber Amulet of Vermin for instance), but so does any splatbook, and it also contains a wealth of useful and balanced items (Eternal Wands, Raptor Arrows :smallcool:, Greater Dispelling Weapons, Blindfold of True Darkness, etc) What does the MiC do that sets it apart, and become worthy of the Banhammer?


7) no shivering touch ( look, it just waaaay too good of a spell for 2nd level, name 1 other 2nd levle that can take out a dragon?)

Fair enough; Shivering Touch is very powerful for its level, possibly giving the best returns for its level of any "blasty" spell (maybe Combust gives more)


8) No cheddary cheese builds
9) no tricks to get above ECL WBL, (you take a 13th level party each one gets 110,000 gold)
10) No extra experience for crafting or endless exp for crafting

Sounds good, except that I suggest that you ban Artificer (or even crafting in general) if you're worried about that. Because that's the whole shtick of Artificer-ing and Crafting. Breaking WBL into tiny pieces and playing with all the cool toys they got from it.


11) this is not a oh we all know we are going to fight a Balor out in an open plane, its a "la la la la" turn dungeon corner and "ffuuu.....!" fight, but you are all 100% of your abilities.

...huh.

What.

That doesn't jive with me. A CR 20 Encounter isn't something you meet in any old dungeon. An unprepared party of level 20s could very well be TPK'd by a Balor that no one was ready for. Hell, that's why DMs tend to give their players a sessions warning for Dragons and other Boss Monsters, because otherwise they'll lose. You need to prepare to fight those sorts of things.

At least when the DM plays them intelligently. Sometimes Dragons walk everywhere and growl a lot, occasionally trying to bite someone. :smallbiggrin:


12) and lastly the party consist of good align heroes.

:annoyed:

Discrimination I say! Where is the neutral and evil representation!!!


13) I am probably leaving out a bunch of rules that people are going to exploit, so.. my last rules is, be a gentleman/lady about it and try to keep with my intentions of the rules

You have my word; I will try my best to restrain myself to things that won't break the challenge, set it on fire, or dance around on the ashes.

Anyway, time for me to get to work. Be back later.

[candycorn]

Party of 4, Level 15.

Arcane: Wizard 15
Divine: Cleric 15
Skillmonkey: Bard 10 / Seeker of the Song 5
Beatstick: Barbarian 7 / Bear Warrior 8

None of these are particularly overpowered.

Basic Concept:
Prebuffs: Protection from Evil (whole party)

Wizard uses Quickened Assay Spell Resistance (no metamagic reducers, 6th level slot) and Split Ray Empowered Enervation (no metamagic reducers, level 8 slot) to deal an average of 7ish negative levels to the Balor.
Cleric then uses a Quickened Dimensional Anchor to remove teleportation as an option, after using a strand of prayer beads for +4 CL, and Divine Spell Power feat for another +4. Add on Greater Spell Penetration, and the cleric is caster level 25 vs SR 28. Likely enough.

From here, the party engages it as a normal monster. With -7 effective levels for all its abilities, the Blasphemy is no longer a threat to the party, and the cleric and wizard can focus on dispelling enemy spells, or on rebuffing allies, if dispels are used successfully. The bard can use Song of Life, along with a good perform check (say a 26 charisma, 18 ranks in perform, an item that gives +3 on perform checks, and skill focus in perform... Bard heals 1d20+32 HP every round. Alternately, can provide fire resistance and dispel support, if healing isn't needed, or inspire courage, or even use UMD to fire off a Blinding Spittle scroll, to blind the thing.)
Barbarian engages in melee, as normal. Cleric alternates between dispels, rebuffing, and Heal spells. Wizard uses Ray of Enfeeblement, Resist Energy, and the like, when not dispelling/rebuffing.

The real key is winning the initiative check, but, even if it doesn't, simply keeping spread will limit the blasphemy until arrangements can be made.

No metamagic reducers were used. Effective, but not overpowered spell use was made, and metamagic feats are effective, but in line with the character level. Resource expenses are low, as well. It's not a 100% guarantee, but, it's quite likely to win without too much effort, and the abilities are not keyed to be specifically effective vs a Balor. Using Enervation + Dispel to control the fight, then let the melee do what they do.

[gomipile]

Wizard uses Quickened Assay Spell Resistance

Assay Spell Resistance is already a swift action, no quickening is needed.

[gomipile]

7) no shivering touch ( look, it just waaaay too good of a spell for 2nd level, name 1 other 2nd levle that can take out a dragon?)


Of course it is too good to be a level 2 spell. That is why it is not a level 2 spell. It is level 3.

[Zale]

so.. did anybody else notice that my one post was a doublepost.. 8 hours later?

anyways.. here we go with the new rules

1) its a party of 4, consiting of a melee, skill-monkey, divine, and arcane class
2) You can do low optimization, (i.e you make character that are competant in their roles, but not overly powerful, prime example of the latter just about every character submission so far, or any one charatcer than can 1 hit kill the Balor)
3) no Theoreticall Optimization tricks
4) no infinite loops
5) no faulty/loose rules interpretation
6) no magic item compendium
7) no shivering touch ( look, it just waaaay too good of a spell for 2nd level, name 1 other 2nd levle that can take out a dragon?)
8) No cheddary cheese builds
9) no tricks to get above ECL WBL, (you take a 13th level party each one gets 110,000 gold)
10) No extra experience for crafting or endless exp for crafting
11) this is not a oh we all know we are going to fight a Balor out in an open plane, its a "la la la la" turn dungeon corner and "ffuuu.....!" fight, but you are all 100% of your abilities.
12) and lastly the party consist of good align heroes.

13) I am probably leaving out a bunch of rules that people are going to exploit, so.. my last rules is, be a gentleman/lady about it and try to keep with my intentions of the rules

Dungeontunnel type terrain favors the Adventurers, because the Balor will not be able to properly maneuver to take advantage of flight.

They'll need to be at least level 15+ to avoid being locked into endless paralysis..

[Voyager_I]

Party of 4, Level 15.

Arcane: Wizard 15
Divine: Cleric 15
Skillmonkey: Bard 10 / Seeker of the Song 5
Beatstick: Barbarian 7 / Bear Warrior 8

None of these are particularly overpowered.


There are some gaps in this. To start with, you're assuming incredibly advantageous terrain; you have enough room to spread out and keep the Balor from paralyzing the entire party if it wins initiative (quite likely, given that you aren't abusing any initiative modifiers), but the Balor can't fly. If either one of these isn't true, than you're either facing a very high potential for a TPK from Blasphemy, or the Balor can just fly away from the Barbarian, dispel the Dimensional Anchor, and Teleport away. Even assuming you manage to tank its CL, Greater Dispel Magic is an at-will ability and you don't have any stated means of killing it while it's airborne, so it can just keep trying until it succeeds.

I think flight is something you definitely need to account for in a plan to kill a Balor. That said, it's a pretty reasonable 4-player party which could at least pose a threat to a Balor in the right circumstances.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'd just like to point out that Assay Spell Resistance (SpC pg. 17) already takes a swift action. Quicken Spell / Belt of Battle are not necessary.

[candycorn]

There are some gaps in this. To start with, you're assuming incredibly advantageous terrain; you have enough room to spread out and keep the Balor from paralyzing the entire party if it wins initiative (quite likely, given that you aren't abusing any initiative modifiers), but the Balor can't fly. If either one of these isn't true, than you're either facing a very high potential for a TPK from Blasphemy, or the Balor can just fly away from the Barbarian, dispel the Dimensional Anchor, and Teleport away. Even assuming you manage to tank its CL, Greater Dispel Magic is an at-will ability and you don't have any stated means of killing it while it's airborne, so it can just keep trying until it succeeds.

I think flight is something you definitely need to account for in a plan to kill a Balor. That said, it's a pretty reasonable 4-player party which could at least pose a threat to a Balor in the right circumstances.

Note: about 80% of the builds are not done. The challenge terms were: round a dungeon corner, there it is. That likely precludes most flight.

In addition, if the area is no more than 50 feet high, flight is a possibility, but magic items can get a character close enough. Flight item + Belt of battle, for example, can get the beatstick close enough.

In addition, getting a high initiative check isn't impossible, or even improbable. For example, the wizard's contingency? could be as simple as a nerveskitter in the event that the wizard is faced with a dire threat (enemy with CR > +4). There's +5. Add on Improved Initiative, a +5 dex modifier, and you have +14. The bard can UMD a wand of nerveskitter, with improved initiative and a +5 dex modifier, for the same.

Finally, Greater Dispel goes down to +13, after the enervation. That -7 effective levels hits EVERYTHING. If the cleric has a caster level boosted to CL 23, the Balor, no matter how often it dispels, will never successfully get rid of Dim Anchor. Just to be on the safe side, though, add in a Ring of Enduring Arcana, to increase the dispel DC by 4.

In the event that the Balor attempts to disengage, there's Downdraft, more enervations, and Blinding Spittle, as was previously mentioned. Blinding the Balor reduces its effective fly speed to 45, lower than the party's flight speed, assuming a Fly spell or equivalent available to all PC's (and it should; any level 11 character should have access to flight, much less 15).

The cleric's really the only major problem with initiative, to be honest. Yeah, it's not guaranteed, but it's a much better than average chance of winning, it neuters almost all of the Balor's power abilities, can withstand the other damage that a balor can kick out, and, worse comes to worse, the Wizard's round 2 can easily be a PaO (assuming a +8 intelligence mod, the DC is 26, compared to the Balor's Will of +16, after enervation).

Provided the Balor stays even 1 round, it's gone. If the cleric gets the initiative treatment, as well, then even that option is removed.

[Golden Ladybug]

My aim was to get ECL 13 all around (as that is the first time my party can actually gain EXP for defeating this Balor). Assuming 32 Point Buy for stats, and aiming for a level of general competence all around. I've given them some minor preparations that give them small advantages against the Balor, stuff that I'd assume you'd be able to find out with Knowledge Checks (a powerful demon lives in this dungeon, Magical Protection is likely to be dispellled, etc)

Dah Meatshield
Half-Giant Psychic Warrior 3/Ranger 1/(Wolf Totem)Barbarian 2/Horizon Tripper 6
HP: 10d8+2d12+30 (112)
AC: 24
Abilities: Str 36 (18 Base, +2 Racial, +2 Level Up, +4 Size, +6 Enhancement, +4 Rage) Dex 14 (16 Base, -2 Racial, -4 Size, +4 Enhancement) Con 14 (8 Base, +2 Racial, +4 Rage) Int 10 Wis 16 (12 Base, +4 Enhancement), Cha 8
BAB: +11/+6/+1
Saves: Fort 17 Ref 6 Will 8

Feats: 1) Combat Relfexes
PsyWar1) Power Attack
PsyWar2) Psionic Weapon
3) Practised Manifester: Psychic Warrior
Ranger1) Track
Barb2) Improved Trip
6) Knock-Down
9) Deep Impact
12) Psionic Meditation

Gear: +1 Wounding Spiked Chain (18,325gp)
Periapt of Wisdom +4 (16,000gp)
Belt of Giant's Strength +6 (36,000gp)
Mithral Chain (1,250gp)
Masterwork Tool: Tumble (50gp)
Ring of Counterspells (Greater Dispel Magic) (4000gp)

(12,325gp into the communal pool for wands and the like)

Skills: K: Geography +8 Ranks (6 Ranks at Ranger 1, 2CC Ranks at Barb 1)
Tumble +18 [Skilled City Dweller ACF] 4 (4 Ranks at PsiWar 1, 4 Ranks Barb 2, 2 Ranks at Horizon Walker 1, +1 Rank/Horizon Walker)
Psicraft +4 (2 Ranks PsiWar 1, +1 Rank/PsiWar)
Concentration +15 (2 Ranks at Horizon Walker 1, 4 Ranks at Horizon Walker 2, 3, 4, +1/Horizon Walker)
Spot +11 (3 Ranks Horizon Walker 5, +1/Horizon Walker)

Class Features: Manifesting (ML7)
Power Points: 15
Favoured Enemy: Evil Outsiders
Wild Empathy
Rage 1/day
Pounce (Spirit Lion)
Uncanny Dodge
Terrain Mastery (Plains, Hills, Underground, Forest, Marsh)
Planar Terrain Mastery (Aligned)

Tactics: Being Immune to Blasphemy means that Horizon McTripper here can charge in and make a full attack against the Balor without fear of getting instagibbed by that. In the round before attacking the Balor, Horizon McTripper manifests Expansion, augmenting it with 6 PP to become Huge, and because of Powerful Build, is treated as one size category larger for all beneficial effects. Next round, after recieving a Extended Wraithstrike from the Caster, Horizon McTripper Rages and charges at the Balor and hits it with Touch Attacks at +37 (PA drops to hit by 11 to get +22 return on damage), +37 (PA drops to hit by 11 to get a +22 return on damage) +32 (PA dropped by 11 to get +22 damage) and +27 (PA dropped by 8 for a +16 return on damage).

The first attack hits on all but a 1, dealing 4d6+52 damage and causing the [spell stored in it] to be cast. Because this attack automatically deals more than 10 Damage, Knock-Down lets Horizon McTripper to attempt to trip the Balor as a Free Action, at +37 to hit Touch AC and a +25 Modifier to his Trip Attempt compared to the Balors +15, so a 50% Chance to knock him to the ground (if he's in the air at this point, then he stalls and falls to the ground at the end of Horizon McTrippers attack routine, taking xd6 damage, depending on how high up he was). Because of Improved Trip, he gets another attack here as if he hadn't used his attack to trip (so I would assume he makes it at +37 here, PAing it down to +26 for and dealing +22 Damage [4d6+52]).

He then resumes his Attack Routine, gaining another free trip attempt on the second attack if he deals 10 or more damage, repeating the same trick every time he strikes. After four attacks, all causing an automatic trip at +25, if he's still up on his feet at this point, I'd be astounded and rather upset.

Horizon McTripper threatens as long as he is within 30ft of the Balor, and gets three Attacks of Oppurtunity. So, when the Balor attempts to either get up or use one of his SLAs, Horizon McTripper AoOs at his Prone Touch AC at +26 for 4d6+52 Damage, attempts a trip, and makes another attack at +26 for 4d6+52 if he succeeds on the trip. The Balor probably won't be stopped from casting, what with its +33 Concentration Modifier, but its worth a shot, and damage is damage.

After the Wraithstrike wears off, Horizon McTripper will only make Standard Action attacks (at +26), and use Deep Impact to make them Touch Attacks, then use his Move Action to regain his Psionic Focus. When the Balor attempts to get up from the ground, he Deep Impacts and makes a touch attack at +26 (the standard trick)

Buffs: Heroics (EWP: Spiked Chain), Sign, Fly, Cat's Grace, Protection from Evil, Extended Wraithstrike, Vigor (Augmented to 7PP for 35 Temporary Hitpoints), Magic Vestments (CL13), Greater Magic Weapon (CL13), Force Screen (1PP), Haste, Inspire Courage +6/+6

Dah Skillmonkey
Pixie Bard 2/Marshal 1/Bard +1/Warblade 1/Bard +2/Warblade +1/Swordsage 1
HP: 7d8+2d12+27 (71)
AC: 18
Abilities: Str 2 (8 Base, -6 Racial) Dex 26 (14 Base, +8 Racial, +4 Enhancement) Con 16, Int 15 (8 Base, +6 Racial, +1 Level Up) Wis 12 (8 Base, +4 Racial) Cha 32 (18 Base, +6 Racial, +6 Enhancement, +2 Level Up)
BAB: +5
Saves: Fort 11 Ref 10 Will 7

Feats: Pixie: Dodge, Weapon Finesse
1) Melodic Casting
3) Words of Creation
Bard 3) Song of the Heart
Marshal 1) Skill Focus: Diplomacy
6) Song of the White Raven
9) Avenging Strike
12) Snowflake Wardance

Gear: Cloak of Charisma +6 (36,000gp)
+1 Wounding Shortsword (18,310gp)
Ring of Counterspells (Greater Dispel Magic) (4000gp)
Scholar's Ring of the Diamond Mind (Greater Insightful Strike) (15,000gp)
Masterwork Tool: Concentration

(14,640gp into the wands/scrolls/etc pool)

Skills: Perform: Dance +23 (12 ranks, +11 Cha)
Concentration +17 (12 Ranks, +3 Con, +2 Circumstance)
UMD +20 (9 Ranks, 11 Cha)
Various Knowledges ~5-10 Ranks.

Class Features:

Minor Aura: Motivate Dexterity
Inspire Courage +3
Discipline Focus: Weapon Focus
Quick to Act +1
Maneuvers (Warblade: 4 Known, 3 Readied, Swordsage 6 Known, 4 Readied)
Stances

Maneuvers, Stances and Spells:

DM: Moment of Perfect Mind (1) (WB)*
Action Before Thought (2) (SS)
Emerald Razor (2) (WB)*
Mind over Body (3) (SS)*
Insightful Strike (3) (SS)*
Greater Insightful Strike (6) (Ring)*

SH: Drain Vitality (2) (SS)*
Shadow Jaunt (2) (SS)
Strength Draining Strike (3) (SS)*

WR: Leading the Attack (1) (WB)
White Raven Tactics (2) (WB)*

Stances: Assassin's Stance
Leading the Charge

1 - Improvisation
Inspirational Boost
2 - Bladeweave

Tactics: Firstly, Bardy McInitiative has her Minor Aura of Motivate Dexterity on all the time, giving everyone +13 to Init. Handy.

During the "Buff Rounds" Bardy McInitiative Casts Improvisation, Bladeweave and starts a Bardic Music Performance, adding +1 to it with Inspirational Boost and then doubly its bonus with Words of Creation. Then, once everyone is ready, Bardy McInitiative leaves the Prismatic Sphere with the rest and charges at our good friend the Balor. She enters a Snowflake Wardance, triggers Avenging Strike and hits it with a Greater Insightful Strike for 1d20+34 Damage and 1 Point of Con damage, at +45 to hit. If she isn't first in Initiative she uses White Raven Tactics to give whoever has gone before her on the team another crack at the Balor.

If the fight goes into the second round, there is a very high chance that Bardy McInitiative will be downed by a Blasphemy, if the Balor uses it, since she will likely be the only one in range who can be affected by it. If I was allowed to have any evil Characters on my team, Bardy McInitiative would be the one. Because you know Pixies must be plotting something diabolical. However, if my understanding of Bardic Music is correct, then it doesn't matter too much, as her dancing prowess will leave the team motivated for five rounds after she explodes in a puff of evil. If Death Ward and Freedom of Movement beat Blasphemy, then add those to her Buffs.

If, by some miracle, Bardy McInitiative is still alive at the end of the Balors turn, she'll hit it again, this time using Strength Draining Strike for 2-4 Str Damage and another 1 Con Damage. Next up would be Drain Vitality, then Insightful Strike after that.

Bardy McInitiative does 1d4+14 damage per hit, so her attacks actually do very little damage to the Balor, unless she is using her Maneuvers to bolster her damage output, so her main purpose is to buff everyone's to hit and damage, and debuff the Balor's Con, softening it up. Bladeweave gives an additional touch attack every round for will-or-dazed against the Balor. That adds up.

Buffs: Sign, Bladeweave, Cat's Grace, Inspire Courage +6/+6, Haste, Greater Magic Weapon (CL13), Greater Invisibility, Protection from Evil, Extended Wraithstrike (Potentially Death Ward and Freedom of Movement)

Dah Cleric
Wild Elf Cloistered Cleric 5/Seeker of the Misty Isle 7/Contemplative 1
HP: 5d6+8d8+39 (112)
AC: 13
Abilities: Str 10 Dex 13 (Base 11, +2 Racial) Con 16 Int 8 (Base 10, -2 Racial) Wis 26 (17 Base, +3 Level Up, +6 Enhancement) Cha 10
BAB: +13/+8/+3 (Divine Power)
Saves: Fort 11 Ref 9 Will 16

Feats: 1) Extra Turning
Domain) Improved Initiative
Domain) Point Blank Shot
3) Zen Archery
6) Precise Shot
9) Quicken Spell
12) DMM: Quicken Spell

Domains: Elf, Time, Knowledge (Traded for Knowledge Devotion at level 13), Travel, Magic and Protection

Skills: Knowledge: Religion +36 (16 Ranks, +5 Lore of the Gods, +15 Divine Insight)

Gear: +1 Holy Composite (+5) Longbow (18,900gp)
-50 Cold Iron Arrows (2,002gp)
Periapt of Wisdom +6 (36,000gp)
Efficient Quiver (1,800gp)
Ring of Counterspells (Greater Dispel Magic) (4000gp)
Beads of Karma (20,000gp)
Scroll of Prismatic Sphere (3,825gp)

(1,473gp to the pool)

Notable Spells Prepared:

1: Protection from Evilx4, Divine Favour, Bless, True Strike (Domain)
2: Divine Insight, Lore of the Gods
3: Magic Vestmentx2, Mass Conviction, Haste (Domain)
4: Assay Spell Resistance, Death Ward, Divine Power, Dimensional Anchor, Freedom of Movement, Dimension Door (Domain)
5: Righteous Might, Quickened True Strike (Domain)
6: Greater Dispel Magic, Spiritual Guardian, Heal, Contingency (Domain)
7: Holy Star, Spell Turning (Domain)

Tactics: As the party walks along, Elfy McCleric hits them all with the wands of Sign they bought, so that when they encounter the Balor, they are all at Initiative's that automatically beat the Balor. Even if we omit that, Elfy McCleric has +18 to Initiative and Bardy McInitiative has +20, and if either of them beat the Balor, they can throw up their defences before things turn south.

At first sight of the Balor, grab Scroll out of Efficient Quiver (free action) and read it. The Party is protected from the Balor's attacks, while inside the sphere, and they have time to buff up. Everyone spends their actions acquiring the buffs listed in the most optimal order (so that none of them run out before they attack the Balor), and when thats done, they go out Guns blazing. Elfy McCleric casts an Assay Spell Resistance and Dimensional Anchor at the Balor on her action, directs her Spiritual Guardian to go kick some ass, and her Holy Star to bombard it with Fire, or Spell Turn if her Domain Casting of it is expended. After that, she begins making full attacks at +31/+31/+31/+26/+23 with her bow, each hit doing 2d6+2d6+20 and ignoring the DR (because her attacks are Good and Cold Iron)

Buffs: Sign, Divine Favour, Bless, Protection from Evil, Divine Insight, Lore of the Gods, Mass Conviction, Haste, Divine Power, Righteous Might, Spiritual Guardian, Holy Star, Spell Turning, Contingency (Revify. When Elfy McCleric dies, Revive), Beads of Karma, Greater Magic Weapon

Dah Arcane
Silverbrow Human Sorcerer 12/Marshal 1
HP: 12d4+1d8+39 (97HP)
AC: Irrelevant
Abilities: Str 8 Dex 8 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 26 (18 Base, +2 Level up)
BAB: +6/+1

Feats 1) Extend Spell
H) Chain Spell
3) Practical Metamagic: Chain Spell
6) Arcane Thesis: Orb of Force
9) Maximise Spell
12) Invisible Spell

Notable Spells: (Extended Chained) Wraithstrike, Greater Magic Weapon, Nerveskitter (Cast on Bardy or Elfy when battle begins), Wings of Cover, Orb of Force, Celerity, Fly, Heroics.

Aura of Determined Caster (+Cha Mod on SR Checks)
Metamagic Specialist

Gear: Cloak of Charisma +6 (36,000gp)

(52,000gp spare)

Tactics: Buff Everyone along with Elfy McCleric and then sling Orbs of Force at the Balor. Wings of Cover protects nearby Teammates, so stand near Elfy McCleric and prepare to throw up Wings of Cover. For the turns that Wings of Cover doesn't get used, use Celerity to fire another Orb of Force (at a rather lame +12 to touch AC). While Boring McSorcerer is around, everyone else gets +8 to pierce the Balor's Spell Resistance, making it significantly easier.

Buffs: Sign, Protection from Evil, Haste, Inspire Courage +6/+6

Wands and Junk
Between themselves, our party of four has 80,438gp worth of stuff they haven't spent, because I'm lazy and can't be bothered with it all.

So, assume they have a good stock of Wands of Sign, Lesser Vigor and othre useful, situational junk.

Minor Wondrous Items that are quirky and useful, but not essential to anything, can also come out of this money. Armor and stuff, too.

Okay, done. By the time I got to the Arcane caster, I was very tired and had stopped caring, so Boring McSorcerer is not very detailed at all, nor very thought out. The others I'm fairly happy with, though.

Divine Caster sets up a Prismatic Sphere, in which our team of four hide in while they set up some Buffs to go out and fight the Balor (who, presumably, is chilling outside eating Babies or something. Why does he care about what these miserable ECL 13 Characters are doing? He's a Balor!). Once they're fully buffed, they make their glourious attack, planning on taking him out together (they automatically beat him in Initiative) in a single round.

Melee and Skillmonkey get into the Balor's Face, and in a combination of Con Damage and Tripping, soften him up and flip him onto his back. Between the two of them, assuming he is hit every time, he'll be taking 9 Con Damage and 32d6+296+1d4+19 Actual Damage.

The Cleric follows it up by locking him in place, and the Sorcerer hits him for another 60 Damage (only at +12 to Touch though. I don't really care about that poor Sorcerer). By now, the poor bugger is probably dead, and if he's not, he still has to spend an action casting Greater Dispel Magic on the Dimensional Anchor the Cleric hit him with, so he can't teleport out. If he goes offensive, and tries to hit them with a Blasphemy, Bardy McInitiative dies, but the Sorcerer covers the Cleric and himself with a Wings of Cover and Horizon McTripper is flat out immune. Any of his Mind-Affecting things fold, because everyone has Protection from Evil, everyone who matters can tank a Firestorm, Implosion can only be used against Bardy McInitiative or Horizon McTripper, because of Wings of Cover, and trying to hit the Cleric with any of these risks them being thrown back at him because of Spell Turning.

The key here is the Prismatic Sphere (Protection Domain puts it on Elfy McCleric's list, so no problems there), which provides them time to prepare. Without it, then don't fare as well, but they can still put up a decent fight, and as long as they can get the most important stuff up (Protection From Evil, Sing, Haste, Inspire Courage, etc) they still have a decent chance of beating it, by abusing touch attacks and lots of full attacks. The sheer weight of the action economy allows them to have a chance, but that only works if they are buffed with Sign. If any of them go after the Balor, someone probably dies.

So, the key to winning is to have time to prepare, even if that time is gained huddled in a Prismatic Sphere as you use buff spells and hope the Balor doesn't feel like trying his luck of punching through the Prismatic Sphere with is SR (which he might be able to do, but if he failed, that'd be the end of him).

Once again, this doesn't mean that it should be a CR13 Encounter. Without all these preparations, without all these things going the party's way, it doesn't work. You probably just die and the Balor goes back to sitting on whatever CR13 Encounter you were supposed to meet before this demon showed up and ruined your day.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

A few things:

-Wraithstrike is personal only, so lacking the proper shenanigans (not listed here) the PsyWar can't benefit from it. Since you're going for buffomancy anyway, you could finagle your sorcerer into Spellguard of Silverymoon I suppose.

-While the Balor doesn't know the party is ECL 13, he does know they're capable of getting a Prismatic Sphere up. He might teleport away, or more likely set up his little room so that once the party comes out he has his own advantages.

-Relying on a "rules of the game" article to get good fliers to stall is... eh...

[Srasy]

3 or 4 Psychic warrior-get huge while you level up to get area attack and throw rock(I think thats what it is called it allows you throw rocks like a giant)
Barbarian 1 or 2
maybe fighter for an extra feat

Get a wizard to shrink a boulder for you that is now 50lbs

you and wizard get in a pit

you area attack boulder at balor

balor dies

I think this can be done by level 6

Also if you have a dread necromacner you can use undead as distractions

Does this work?

[Mystic Muse]

Can you give us rules for stat generation? Has to be point buy of some sort, or an array or something besides rolling dice since we can't do that.

Otherwise, everybody has to make assumptions.

32 isn't a bad amount.

[tyckspoon]

A few things...


Additionally, Protection From Evil only covers effects which 'grant ongoing control.' The only thing the Balor has that is definitely covered by this is Dominate (still worth having, because having your Psychic Warrior turned would be.. bad.) It may not cover Insanity, because the caster has no influence on you after casting it, and definitely doesn't cover Power Word: Stun. (This may or not be a problem, because when faced with 4 opponents at once the Balor is a lot more likely to use Firestorm or Blasphemy as the first option.)

Prismatic Sphere creates a 10-foot radius shell. This does not leave enough room for your PsyWar to safely Expand to Huge while still covered by the sphere- that size requires a 3x3 square, and he can't end his turn standing on top of another creature.

Possible Balor tactic: Teleport into your Sphere. That 10-foot radius *does* leave just enough space for a Large creature, depending on where your party is standing inside it. If he does manage to hit that space, Quickened Telekinesis to punt somebody through the sphere.

Re: Extended Wraithstrike:
A Minor Ring of Spellstoring + a Belt of Battle for the extra action to activate it when you want it will take care of that pretty cleanly.