[3.5] Mystic Theurge and Animate Dead

[Laniius]

Ok, say I was a Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 4. So I am a 7th level cleric and 7th level wizard.

How many HD of undead can I create and control?

With one casting, I can animate 14HD of undead.

My question is, how many can I control? I can only control 4 HD of undead per caster level. Is this caster level level 7, so 28 HD, or do I count both the wizard and cleric levels separately (assuming I cast Animate Dead as a wizard and then as a cleric spell) to get (7*4) + (7*4) = 56 HD? Whatever the answer is, where is information from? Thanks.

[Keneth]

If you cast it as a wizard spell, you can control up to 28 HD, if you cast it as a Cleric, you can control up to 28 HD. They are separate HD pools, however, if your wizard pool goes over the limit, you can still control the loose undead by Rebuking (unless you're good) up to your cleric level which is again a separate pool. So technically you can have up to 28+3 HD of undead as a cleric and 28 HD as a Wizard.

Can't refer you to a specific ruling though (aside from animate dead spell), this is just basic logic and it's been answered several times before.

[Godskook]

Can't refer you to a specific ruling though (aside from animate dead spell), this is just basic logic and it's been answered several times before.

You're very snarky for someone that's answering contrary to what, afaik, is the standard answer.

As Curmudgeon himself put it(Our forum's resident RAW expert):

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11860557&postcount=7

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@OP, you're skipping quite a bit of potential optimization. As a cleric, its possible to get your multiplier up to x6 instead of x4 via domain power, and there's some strong divine CL boosters out there(At least +8 CL lying around). That means a 10th level cleric can readily get 18x6 = 108 HD of undead with a single casting of Animate Dead.

[Keneth]

That's interesting, Curmudgeon and I are often at odds as to what the RAW says. I suppose it's entirely possible to say that you only get to control as many HD of undead as your highest caster level. Personally I've never considered your ability to control undead to be an effect of the spell, but rather an inherent ability of the character, and since you have two completely separate pools of magic to draw from, you should also have two completely separate pools of HD to control your undead with. Of course using a wand makes a compelling counter argument as the magic is not tied to a specific pool, or even a specific type of magic, but rather the item itself. In our games, we consider all undead created in such a manner to be uncontrolled but there is, of course, no RAW to back that up.

[Answerer]

Seeing as Animate Dead is a magic effect existing on many separate creatures, and not ever any kind of spell effect on you, I'm not sure how Curmudgeon is applying any kind of magic stacking rules to it.

I agree with Keneth.

[Petey7]

Based on my reading of the rules, I have to agree with Keneth. Wands are an unusual case with certain spells, including this one. In the case of animate dead, I would rule that you use your highest caster level that would give you access to Animate Dead, or if you don't have a CL, you go by the rules of emulating a class ability. But Keneth's rule of them being uncontrolled might be the more valid way of handling it.

[Shadowknight12]

That's interesting, Curmudgeon and I are often at odds as to what the RAW says. I suppose it's entirely possible to say that you only get to control as many HD of undead as your highest caster level. Personally I've never considered your ability to control undead to be an effect of the spell, but rather an inherent ability of the character, and since you have two completely separate pools of magic to draw from, you should also have two completely separate pools of HD to control your undead with. Of course using a wand makes a compelling counter argument as the magic is not tied to a specific pool, or even a specific type of magic, but rather the item itself. In our games, we consider all undead created in such a manner to be uncontrolled but there is, of course, no RAW to back that up.

Best interpretation of how to handle a wand of Animate Dead I've read. But also yeah, I read the same thing in RAW about a Mystic Theurge casting Animate Dead.

[Godskook]

After searching for a bit, I realized that the relevant portion was part of the spell's rules:

"No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level."

By RAW, it doesn't matter where you're casting the spell from for that to apply. Thus, a Mystic Theurge doesn't get different HD pools for each of its classes.


Wands are an unusual case with certain spells, including this one. In the case of animate dead, I would rule that you use your highest caster level that would give you access to Animate Dead, or if you don't have a CL, you go by the rules of emulating a class ability. But Keneth's rule of them being uncontrolled might be the more valid way of handling it.

There's nothing 'unusual' about how wands of Animate Dead work in this case. The wand has a caster level. The caster level on the wand is the only relevant one for determining how potent that wand's spell is.

And emulating class features is about as relevant as checking the charging rules to see if one can swim.

[Petey7]

I was speaking specifically in terms of how many undead you control, not how many you create. One could say that any undead created with a wand or scroll of Animate Dead are under the control of who ever made the wand/scroll. That makes buying them silly, so you have to use some other method. Going by the highest caster level of the person using that item seems reasonable, but what if a rouge uses that wand? Then they don't have a class to cast with, so you have to do something else. Having to emulate an ability seems like a better deal than having them be uncontrolled to me.

[Godskook]

I was speaking specifically in terms of how many undead you control, not how many you create. One could say that any undead created with a wand or scroll of Animate Dead are under the control of who ever made the wand/scroll. That makes buying them silly, so you have to use some other method. Going by the highest caster level of the person using that item seems reasonable, but what if a rouge uses that wand? Then they don't have a class to cast with, so you have to do something else. Having to emulate an ability seems like a better deal than having them be uncontrolled to me.

When you UMD a wand, *YOU* are the caster of the spell, and thus, any undead you create are under your control as normal for the spell. There's no 'special case' here, and there' sno 'class' to be concerned with. The control of the undead is granted by the spell. You're creating an issue that the rules don't have.

[Laniius]

You're very snarky for someone that's answering contrary to what, afaik, is the standard answer.

As Curmudgeon himself put it(Our forum's resident RAW expert):

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11860557&postcount=7

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@OP, you're skipping quite a bit of potential optimization. As a cleric, its possible to get your multiplier up to x6 instead of x4 via domain power, and there's some strong divine CL boosters out there(At least +8 CL lying around). That means a 10th level cleric can readily get 18x6 = 108 HD of undead with a single casting of Animate Dead.

I'm intentionally skipping optimization beyond the very very basics of the class