[3.5] Building the goddamn Batman...

[hymer]

... and not as a a caster. Batman is a tier 4 who goes toe-to-toe with tier 1s and takes them out by virtue of being crazy prepared and the goddamn Batman.

How would you go about it? It may not be entirely possible, but how close can you get?
Batman obviously doesn't cast spells or use supernatural or magical powers. It's like his trademark. UMD sure (or else, what's a bat belt for?), but that's about it. He's human, and let's assume a 32 point buy. ECL 20ish.

[MagnusExultatio]

Plot Device 20. All his stats are Plot.

[Morph Bark]

His maxed skills are Hide, Move Silently, Use Magic Device, Intimidate and probably such skills as Tumble, Climb and Jump. But since his Int is likely very high, there'll be more.

However, since he is so filthy stinking rich, he has access to nearly every nonunique magic item with a cost to it. It's moreso that and maximizing his ability to use all those items than anything else.

[candycorn]

If I were going for a non-wizard batman, I'd probably build him as a Factotum.

If I were going for an Iron Man, I'd use Artificer.

[*.*.*.*]

Carnivore to the rescue! (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=785.0)

[Mystral]

Give him a whole lot of alchemical items that copy spell effects.

[Calanon]

Give him a whole lot of alchemical items that copy spell effects.

*Cast Karsus' Avatar*

OT: I can see Batman as more of a Chameleon then anything else or a Factotum with all his skills maxed (LOL good luck!) with plenty of UMD abuse out the wazoo

[Morph Bark]

OT: I can see Batman as more of a Chameleon then anything else or a Factotum with all his skills maxed (LOL good luck!) with plenty of UMD abuse out the wazoo

Human Factotum with 18 Int and Nymph's Kiss would get 12 skill points/level. And I believe there is a +0 LA template that grants +2 Int, which would bring it up to 13/level.

20 levels, increasing Int every 4th (and reading a book for another +1 each time), makes it...

Level 1: 52 sp
Level 2: +13
Level 3: +13
Level 4: +14
Level 5: +14
Level 6: +14
Level 7: +14
Level 8: +15
Level 9: +15
Level 10: +15
Level 11: +15
Level 12: +16
Level 13: +16
Level 14: +16
Level 15: +16
Level 16: +17
Level 17: +17
Level 18: +17
Level 19: +17
Level 20: +18

Total: 334 sp.

Not including the possibility of up to LA+3 templates.

Let's say 5 ranks in every core Knowledge (at least). Brings it down by 50 to 284.

Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device, Search, Use Magic Device, Tumble, Jump, Climb, Gather Information, Craft (alchemy) and Intimidate all maxed. 21 skill points left.

Probably good to dip a few here or there, like one in Autohypnosis. Use the rest to buy skill tricks.

[Calanon]

Human Factotum with 18 Int and Nymph's Kiss would get 12 skill points/level. And I believe there is a +0 LA template that grants +2 Int, which would bring it up to 13/level.

20 levels, increasing Int every 4th (and reading a book for another +1 each time), makes it...

Level 1: 52 sp
Level 2: +13
Level 3: +13
Level 4: +14
Level 5: +14
Level 6: +14
Level 7: +14
Level 8: +15
Level 9: +15
Level 10: +15
Level 11: +15
Level 12: +16
Level 13: +16
Level 14: +16
Level 15: +16
Level 16: +17
Level 17: +17
Level 18: +17
Level 19: +17
Level 20: +18

Total: 334 sp.

Not including the possibility of up to LA+3 templates.

Let's say 5 ranks in every core Knowledge (at least). Brings it down by 50 to 284.

Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device, Search, Use Magic Device, Tumble, Jump, Climb, Gather Information, Craft (alchemy) and Intimidate all maxed. 21 skill points left.

Probably good to dip a few here or there, like one in Autohypnosis. Use the rest to buy skill tricks.

Tempted to rule nazi this and say "IT NEEDS ALL THE SKILLS MAXED" but eh...:smalltongue: you picked the most batman-ish ones so its all good in the hood :smallsigh:

[Godskook]

... and not as a a caster. Batman is a tier 4 who goes toe-to-toe with tier 1s and takes them out by virtue of being crazy prepared and the goddamn Batman.

Do you not know Batman? Seriously? By tradition, Batman villains tend to be tier 3s and 4s themselves, with Clayface being the most likely exception(not sure on the full extent of his powers).

Admittedly, Mr. Freeze would get Shunted into the Artificer class, but that's less his power level and more a result of no other class in D&D fitting him quite so well fluff-wise. With refluffing, he'd actually be better statted as a Warlock.

[Jeff the Green]

Do you not know Batman? Seriously? By tradition, Batman villains tend to be tier 3s and 4s themselves, with Clayface being the most likely exception(not sure on the full extent of his powers).

Admittedly, Mr. Freeze would get Shunted into the Artificer class, but that's less his power level and more a result of no other class in D&D fitting him quite so well fluff-wise. With refluffing, he'd actually be better statted as a Warlock.

But he's been known to take down other supers, including Marty Stu Superman. Batman is a very well played Factotum, and a very well played Factotum can potentially take down everything but high-op tier-1/2s

[hymer]

@ Godskook: I was thinking of the piece of kryptonite Batman supposedly carries at all times, just in case he needs to take Superman out. And it's not like it's unprecedented.
I'm sure Batman's got plans to take out any and all of his allies, many of whom are far more powerful than he is himself. Or would be, if it weren't for, you know.

Edit: Is it being Swordsaged when you get help?

[Lateral]

This has already been mentioned, but I think I should make it clear: Batman is no tier 4. He's a tier 3, easily. His schtick is being ridiculously versatile and prepared for any eventuality, and that's something tier 3s do- not tier 4s. Yeah, he's a Factotum with hella good rolls, an 18 intelligence, and Superior Unarmed Strike.

[Gullara]

Hrm, almost tempting to snag a level of Shadowdancer purely for Hide in Plain Sight. Seems like it fits Batman rather well.

[hymer]

@ Lateral: I'll bow to that, though my quibble could be that he's a tier 4 chassis optimized sufficiently to achieve a higher tier. But then, who cares? :)

[Person_Man]

I have a homebrew Detective class that I've been working on and play testing for several months. The core of the class is a new Deduction system. You can gain Clue Points by investigating (using various Skills out of combat), Banter (using social or Knowledge Skills in combat), and/or roleplaying. Once gathered, Clue Points can either give you passive bonuses or can be spent in combat to buff allies or use various combat maneuvers. You also have a variety of passive abilities which are always on, such as proficiency with all weapons, the ability to render henchmen (enemies with 5 fewer hit dice then you) unconscious, the ability to Quickdraw objects (such as alchemical items and trap), and many others.

Give me another week to polish it, and I'll post it in the homebrew section. I'm still working out some balance issues. (Unsurprisingly, when you make a list of everything Batman can do and try and work it into one class, it can get overpowered).

[Piggy Knowles]

I'd call him a factotum with very high WBL and an artificer cohort.

[Godskook]

@ Godskook: I was thinking of the piece of kryptonite Batman supposedly carries at all times, just in case he needs to take Superman out. And it's not like it's unprecedented.

But that's merely having a McGuffin. One that Superman even told Batman about. A commoner could do it.

Its also not a toe-to-toe fight. Batman *CAN'T* take Superman in a toe-to-toe fight. That's the whole point of having a McGuffin to deal with him.

Finally, I'm not sure Superman qualifies as tier 2 even. Most of his schtick is "I punch people...in the face". Actually, he's about as powerful as a ubercharger with choice magic item selection, which would nail him as tier *5*(probably some boss racial modifiers though).

[hymer]

You're quibbling, Godskook, and I won't have it. :p

[Azoth]

Lets see for superman we have insane racial stats, invulnerability to physical harm, flight at will, cone of cold at will, scorching ray as a twinned prepped occular spell at will, xray vision at will, ungodly movement speeds for all modes of travel...hell he barrel rolled the earth backwards through time.

Batman can handle his own by outsmarting his opponents. Hell in a stand up slug match most average people can't take a pro boxer, but they can beat him using MMA or a lead pipe and both are the same type of fight.

[Taelas]

Superman isn't very consistent (and that goes for most other super heroes -- Batman is a noticeable exception, but then, he doesn't have super powers).
His strength is astronomical, according to just a few of his more fantastical feats.

For instance, he once moved the planet Earth out of the way of an incoming attack, simply by pushing it. Leaving aside the impossibility of the planet being moved from a pressure point the size of Superman's hands (the planet isn't that cohesive), the strength required for such a feat is absurd. The mass of the Earth is approximately 6 x 10^24 kilograms -- six quadrillion kilograms, or around 13.2 quadrillion pounds.

Assuming he's Medium-sized and pushes/drags the Earth, at the very least, he has a strength score of roughly 659,999,999,999,999,999,999,920, or if we round it off, 6.6 x 10^23 -- or roughly 660 trilliard. That makes his Str bonus ~3.3 x 10^23.

Even if his shtick is just punching people in the face, I think that qualifies as tier 0.

[Godskook]

You're quibbling, Godskook, and I won't have it. :p

Fine, I'll quibble in the other direction, and point out that a rich kid who's trained in the most powerful weapons and techniques of his time would be nothing short of an Artificer or Wizard.

[Zonugal]

Finally, I'm not sure Superman qualifies as tier 2 even. Most of his schtick is "I punch people...in the face". Actually, he's about as powerful as a ubercharger with choice magic item selection, which would nail him as tier *5*(probably some boss racial modifiers though).

Superman is such a tier 1 caster.

He can pretty much do anything he wants, he has his own retreat center within the fortress of solitude (which might as well be his own personal plane), and he is routinely said to be one of the smartest beings on the planet.

[hymer]

Well, as long as the quibble is consensual and reciprocal, I really shouldn't complain. Go ahead and enjoy yourselves. :)
And if you should mention some interesting things to do with a character that is noncaster and batmanesque, I'll just consider it a nice bonus.

[That_guy_there]

Trying to stay away from spellcasters and the Factotum just because when I hear "Goddamn Batman" I think of early All-Star Batman....

It'll probably take a bit of work to get there but a Warblade focused on manuvers that enhance attacks or defense and focus him on unarmed strikes (with superior unarmed strike and greater mighty whallop of course), might do. And is Iron Heart Surge still debated as broken... because that's Batman right there....
You really end up blowing skills on UMD though....

[Zonugal]

I think one of the problems is that you can't really capture the whole "human zenith" aspect of Batman with 32-point buy. You could maybe get away with it if you re-flavored the different tomes & manuals to be his extensive training but...

Also, Batman is surprisingly easy to build in E6 as compared to regular D&D.

And last point, some of Batman's villains would possibly fall into the tier 1 category.

Poison Ivy: Druid
Mr. Freeze: Wizard (ice/cold focused)
Scarecrow: Wizard or Beguiler
Mad Hatter: Wizard or Beguiler

[hymer]

I think one of the problems is that you can't really capture the whole "human zenith" aspect of Batman with 32-point buy. You could maybe get away with it if you re-flavored the different tomes & manuals to be his extensive training but...

I don't disagree, but how would you prioritize his stats, then?


Also, Batman is surprisingly easy to build in E6 as compared to regular D&D.

Do tell! :)

[deuxhero]

Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device, Search, Use Magic Device, Tumble, Jump, Climb, Gather Information, Craft (alchemy) and Intimidate all maxed. 21 skill points left.

Probably good to dip a few here or there, like one in Autohypnosis. Use the rest to buy skill tricks.


Batman can use IF on Batarangs by drawing them as an (improvised) weapon.

[Jeff the Green]

And last point, some of Batman's villains would possibly fall into the tier 1 category.

Poison Ivy: Druid
Mr. Freeze: Wizard (ice/cold focused)
Scarecrow: Wizard or Beguiler
Mad Hatter: Wizard or Beguiler

Eh, as mentioned, Mr. Freeze is probably either an Artificer or Warlock. Scarecrow is probably a Beguiler/Nightmare Spinner or a Dread Necromancer/Dread Witch.

And Poison Ivy (shameless plug) is clearly a Viridian Aspirant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235831).

[Zonugal]

I don't disagree, but how would you prioritize his stats, then?

Using 32-points I'd probably do something akin to this:

Str 14, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10.

Following that I'd pump boosts into Intelligence but for prioritizing his stats I'd say: Int, Dex, Con, Str, Cha, Wis.

For E6, I'd probably shift his stats around to

Str 12, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 10 (as I'd be able to pick up both Weapon Finesse & Shadow Blade).



Do tell! :)

Well in E6 we have access to the handy dandy feat Open Minded. A simple build like Rogue 1/Urban Ranger 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Artificer 2/Rogue 1 would grant us the ability to start pouring skill points from Open Minded into different skills. With enough feats (lets say Batman would have access to 100+ as he's a legendary superhero) you could easily max out every skill needed.


Eh, as mentioned, Mr. Freeze is probably either an Artificer or Warlock. Scarecrow is probably a Beguiler/Nightmare Spinner or a Dread Necromancer/Dread Witch.

And Poison Ivy (shameless plug) is clearly a Viridian Aspirant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235831).

The principal reason I'd have the Scarecrow stay a wizard is because of his character's focus & driving motivation towards knowledge. I mean there are stories where Batman straight up bribes him with collector editions of rare books. And that screams wizard to me.

[hymer]

Thanks Zonugal!

[Jeff the Green]

The principal reason I'd have the Scarecrow stay a wizard is because of his character's focus & driving motivation towards knowledge. I mean there are stories where Batman straight up bribes him with collector editions of rare books. And that screams wizard to me.

:smallconfused: He doesn't get his power from books, though. Any character can be a bookworm. I've played Beguilers, Clerics, and Bards whose primary motivation was digging up old books.

[Zonugal]

:smallconfused: He doesn't get his power from books, though. Any character can be a bookworm. I've played Beguilers, Clerics, and Bards whose primary motivation was digging up old books.

I was just saying his primary motivation, from what I know of the character, and his methods align themselves better with a typical enchanter (but I'd agree that Nightmare Spinner is an appropriate prestige class).

Mind you also I am approaching this from an E6 perspective, so I'm imagining all of these characters never exceeding those barriers.

And towards Hymer, I know you didn't want him to have any elements of a tier 1 class but the reason I have two levels of artificer is so he can perform the ol' Adam West Batman trick through the spell storing infusion.

[Engine]

I know it's a 3.5 thread, but I would give a shot with the Pathfinder's rules.

Batman
Male human ninja 13
\\ medium humanoid
Init +10; Senses Perception +19

DEFENSE
AC 24, touch 14, flat-footed 20 (+10 armor)
hp 88 (13d8+26)
Fort +10 Ref +16 Will +10
Defensive abilities improved uncanny dodge


OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +18\+13 (1d10+9)
Ranged Mwk Shuriken +14\+9
Special Attacks Sneak Attack +7d6

STATISTICS

Str 18 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 20 Wis 16 Cha 18
Base Atk +9 CMB +13 CMD 27
Traits Rich Parents, Reactionary
Feats Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Snake Fang, Snake Sidewind, Snake Style, Quick Draw
Skills Acrobatics +20, Climb +14, Bluff +20, Craft (Alchemy) +21, Diplomacy +20, Disable Device +21, Disguise +20, Intimidate +20, Knowledge (Local) +21, Knowledge (Nobility) +21, Perception +19, Sense Motive +19, Sleight of Hand +20, Stealth +35 Swim +13, Use Magic Device +20
Languages
SQ ninja tricks (Feather Fall, Sudden Disguise, Unarmed Combat Training, Vanishing Trick) master tricks (Invisible Blade, Unarmed Combat Mastery), ki pool 10, no trace +4, light steps

Gear Mithral breastplate of Greater Shadow +4, Amulet of Mighty Fists, Belt of Many Tools, mwk tools, 10 mwk shurikens, Cloak of resistance +4, all six attribute's tomes +2, various wands, Boots of Striding & Sprinting.

[Zonugal]

Within an E6 frame-work I'd probably put everyone at something like this:

Batman: Human Rogue 1/Urban Ranger 1/Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Artificer 2/Rogue 1
Robin: Human Rogue 1/Monk 3
Alfred: Human Wizard 3
Detective Gordon: Human Urban Ranger 3

Joker: Human Bard 6
Two-Face: Half-Orc Sorcerer 4/Paladin of Tyranny 2
Riddler: Human Artificer 6
Poison Ivy: Volodni Druid 6
Bane: Human Thug Fighter 4/Wolf-Totem Barbarian 2
Black-Mask: Human Thug/Zhentarim Fighter 6
Catwoman: Human Rogue 5/Thief-Acrobat 1
ClayFace: Half-Clay Golem Changeling Thug/Sneak Attack Fighter 4/Warshaper 2
Killer Croc: Yuan-Ti Broodgaurd Half-Minotaur Human Barbarian 6
The Mad Hatter: Human Beguiler 5/Mindbender 1
Mr. Freeze: Human Wizard 5/Frost Mage 1
The Penguin: Human Urban Ranger 5/Bird Lord 1
Ra's al Ghul: Elan Swordsage 2/Warblade 4
The Scarecrow: Human Enchanter 5/Nightmare Spinner 1

[hymer]

Thanks for you thoughts, everyone, especially those who took time to do some calculations and builds. Much appreciated, and I hope you had some fun with it too. :)