Remastering monsters that actually mean something...

[Venser]

Like Orcus, Asmodeus, Atropus, Mephistopheles etc.

I have double checked all these monsteres and, for their CR, their are patheticaly weak(expect for maybe Asmodeus who is insanely powerful).

Let's take Orcus for example.
Sure he has awesome abilities, but his CR is 22.
Alright, his AC is 48.
A level 20 fighter or barbarian already has +20 BAB plus strength(which should be quite high at this point) plus magical items plus feats.
If Orcus finds himself fighting a barbarian or a damage oriented fighter, he would have been obliterated in one round(he has 445 hp, a a level 20 damage dealing melee character can do a bit more than that).

Immunity only to electricity and resistance 10 to three other types of energy.
With immunity to only one type of energy and pathetic resistance to others, a wizard would also most likely destroy Orcus in one round, even if he has SR 35 which is not that big a deal once you reach lvl 20 and/or beyond.

Orcus might not be the best example, but I hope that you see what I'm getting at. IMO these monsters that actualy are something and someone in the world of DND should be more powerful at their CR.

Take any monster from fiendish codex that is CR 20 or more and maybe even add him some minions and send him against a four member level 20 party. The battle will end in a few rounds with party being victorious.

[Dumbledore lives]

If I recall some of the Elder Evils from the eponymous book are not too bad for their CR, and have a decent encounter design for the, for example fighting one of them on the moon full of necromatic energy which makes divine magic impossible and allows for a huge amount of undead opponent at the same time. Honestly just upping the hp on non-spellcasters helps a lot, as does giving spellcasters concealment and stuff to make hitting them non-trivial.

[Venser]

If I recall some of the Elder Evils from the eponymous book are not too bad for their CR, and have a decent encounter design for the, for example fighting one of them on the moon full of necromatic energy which makes divine magic impossible and allows for a huge amount of undead opponent at the same time. Honestly just upping the hp on non-spellcasters helps a lot, as does giving spellcasters concealment and stuff to make hitting them non-trivial.

IMo the olny monsters that live up to their names and CRs are deities and most of elder evils.

[Calanon]

We differ a little bit... I believe that the Deities are badly stated, as are the Demon Princes AND the Lords of the Nine, it wasn't until I discovered the Dicefreak varients of these creatures that I realized how powerful they should really be... Asmodeus is... impossible to defeat if your using the Dicefreak rules even with Epic spellcasting abuse out the wazoos... :smallfrown: Still waiting for the Horrors of the Abyss to be completed... not any time soon though... :smallfrown:

[Venser]

We differ a little bit... I believe that the Deities are badly stated, as are the Demon Princes AND the Lords of the Nine, it wasn't until I discovered the Dicefreak varients of these creatures that I realized how powerful they should really be... Asmodeus is... impossible to defeat if your using the Dicefreak rules even with Epic spellcasting abuse out the wazoos... :smallfrown: Still waiting for the Horrors of the Abyss to be completed... not any time soon though... :smallfrown:

Link would be nice :)

[Calanon]

The gates of hell (http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewforum.php?f=11), Some of the deities (http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewforum.php?f=33) beyond that nothing more... :smallfrown: No Celestial spheres, no Abyss... sad face...


EDIT: Rules for making Dicefreak Deities if you wish to expand upon them (http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=19)

[Venser]

The gates of hell (http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewforum.php?f=11), Some of the deities (http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewforum.php?f=33) beyond that nothing more... :smallfrown: No Celestial spheres, no Abyss... sad face...

oh yes, quickly checked Asmodeus and Meph...now that is what an archdevil should look like :D

[Calanon]

oh yes, quickly checked Asmodeus and Meph...now that is what an archdevil should look like :D

Here is Orcus but unfortunately they stopped the Horrors of the Abyss line (http://horrorsoftheabyss.wikidot.com/orcus-demon-prince-of-the-undead) ...Read the story... makes my spine shiver a little bit every time I read it... maybe because I can add so much reality to it... the curse of playing Table Top Gaming I suppose...

[Venser]

Amazing :D

[Calanon]

Amazing :D

No... it isn't... its horrifyingly scary to unleash that upon any Player, Epic or Otherwise :smalleek: I speak from experience when I say "Never make your players fight these creatures... yes that even extends to if they have a divine rank"

[Venser]

No... it isn't... its horrifyingly scary to unleash that upon any Player, Epic or Otherwise :smalleek: I speak from experience when I say "Never make your players fight these creatures... yes that even extends to if they have a divine rank"

Well, ofcourse, this Orcus is insanely powerful(it can be beaten, but chances of that happening are extremely slim).
This is what Orcus should look like, flavor wise, and if someone made him that powerful than I am afraid of how Demogorgon might turn out xD

IMO, flavorwise this Orcus is amazing, but I would rather not use it in any campaign.

[Keneth]

The demon lords and archdevils are generally considered to have aspects, much like the deities, and those are the creatures you would be up against in a normal campaign (hence the "low" CR). Their actual forms aren't stat-ed, but if they would be, I imagine they would look a lot like the Orcus posted above. :smallbiggrin:

[KillianHawkeye]

Not everyone plays at such high levels of op that their melee fighters and barbarians can do 500 damage in one round, even at level 20.

I'd wager that, for your average casual player, the various deities and fiendish lords are plenty powerful enough as printed.