Arcane Spellsurge + Metabreath Spells

[quelluomo]

Hi everyone,
I'm currently playing a dragonwrought kobold Sorcerer // Dragonfire Adept (an extremely draconic flavor :smallamused: )
I have a doubt about interaction between Arcane Spellsurge and Metabreath spells (Draconomicon, under dragons spells).

The Breath weapon from Dragonfire Adept requires a standard action to use. And of course Arcane spellsurge doesn't affect it, because it's not a spell.
But what if I use a Metabreath spell? Those spells allow to use your breath weapon and enhance it with various effects.
In the spells description, it's mentioned that using the breath weapon becomes a component for the spell (much like verbal or somatic), and that the breath weapon is part of the spell, just like a melee touch attack is part of a touch spell (not the exact words, but that's the meaning of it. Draconomicon, p. 75).
I believe the bolded text is the key, because you can actually quicken a touch spell (thus making a "faster" touch attack, usually a standard action on its own).
Can Arcane spellsurge + Metabreath spells allow a Dragonfire Adept to breathe as a swift action? What do you think?

How would a Metabreath spell behave when coupled with the "Fivefold Breath of Tiamat" breath effect, that usually requires a full-round action instead of a standard action? And if I add Arcane spellsurge on top of it? :smalleek:

Lastly, can those Metabreath spells be used inside an Arcane Fusion spell? I assume they can be used, since Arcane Fusion doesn't affect casting time, it just allows you to cast two spells.

I thank you in advance for your time :)

[FearlessGnome]

Partial answer: Arcane Fusion allows you to cast two spells that take no more than a standard action each. Casting to swift action spells is allowed.

As to metabreathing... No idea. Never played a Dragonfire Adept. Full-round spells, unlike 1-round spells, can normally be quickened, but I doubt there is a clear cut RAW answer to the breath-as-component question.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Metabreath Spells were all reprinted in Spell Compendium, and their mechanic completely changed. There's no more 'breath component' to the spells, they take a swift action to cast and affect your next breath attack used during that round. This is the current version of how they work, so the Draconomicon versions are no longer even valid.

[quelluomo]

I didn't notice they were reprinted, this solves the question. Of course they were nerfed. :smallannoyed:
Thank you :)

[Douglas]

It's not strictly a nerf, actually. They don't affect "your next breath attack this round", they affect any use of your breath weapon for the duration of the spell (which happens to be 1 round). Add Extend Spell and a little setup, and you can apply two metabreath spells to the same breath. (Greater) Arcane Fusion can do this too, and you can combine the two for even more breath augmentation.

For the truly ambitious breath weapon devotee, this change makes it possible to go whole hog and apply Persistent Spell to metabreath spells. With that, the spell will affect all of your breath weapon attacks all day long, and you can add more Persistent, Extended, or Fusioned metabreath spells to produce some extremely powerful combinations. Imagine a Blinding Admixed Dispelling Enervating (Greater) Stunning breath weapon attack. Oh, and add the Maximize Breath metabreath feat for good measure. Double maximum damage, negative levels, stun, blind, and dispelling, all in a single breath, with all saves based on the breath weapon's DC. How's that for a one-round fight finisher?

No, this change was definitely not a straight nerf. It just changed which optimization approaches are valid, not whether you can do absurd optimization with them.

[quelluomo]

:smalleek: That's scary... but I like it :smallamused:
It's time to fully use those Incantatrix levels :smallbiggrin:
Thank you! And sorry for the late reply.

[kardar233]

It's not strictly a nerf, actually. They don't affect "your next breath attack this round", they affect any use of your breath weapon for the duration of the spell (which happens to be 1 round). Add Extend Spell and a little setup, and you can apply two metabreath spells to the same breath. (Greater) Arcane Fusion can do this too, and you can combine the two for even more breath augmentation.

For the truly ambitious breath weapon devotee, this change makes it possible to go whole hog and apply Persistent Spell to metabreath spells. With that, the spell will affect all of your breath weapon attacks all day long, and you can add more Persistent, Extended, or Fusioned metabreath spells to produce some extremely powerful combinations. Imagine a Blinding Admixed Dispelling Enervating (Greater) Stunning breath weapon attack. Oh, and add the Maximize Breath metabreath feat for good measure. Double maximum damage, negative levels, stun, blind, and dispelling, all in a single breath, with all saves based on the breath weapon's DC. How's that for a one-round fight finisher?

No, this change was definitely not a straight nerf. It just changed which optimization approaches are valid, not whether you can do absurd optimization with them.

I'm actually doing this right now. I'm Persisting all those spells, plus I'm Admixing the Admixture both with Piercing Cold and then Maximized, and I have Heighten Breath so if something really needs to die I can Heighten the DC to hell and back.

Did I mention that I'm using a Very Young Polychromatic Dragon Shapechange form, so I do 26d20 breath damage before all those buffs?

[quelluomo]

I'm actually doing this right now. I'm Persisting all those spells, plus I'm Admixing the Admixture both with Piercing Cold and then Maximized, and I have Heighten Breath so if something really needs to die I can Heighten the DC to hell and back.

Did I mention that I'm using a Very Young Polychromatic Dragon Shapechange form, so I do 26d20 breath damage before all those buffs?

In a couple of levels I'll get shapechange, too... I can't wait :smallbiggrin: