Why do races only ever give even number bonus/penalties?

[hushblade]

The point buy system already encourages the even numbered stats(since it costs more to go to every new odd number) as well as Even numbered stats already being optimal, wouldn't odd numbered bonuses encourage more diverse stats?

[Xaktsaroth]

The point buy system already encourages the even numbered stats(since it costs more to go to every new odd number) as well as Even numbered stats already being optimal, wouldn't odd numbered bonuses encourage more diverse stats?

It's because your stats have to go up or down 2 points to effect your modifier.

An Elf with 10 Strength is mechanically identical to a Elf with 11 Strength; They both have a Strength modifier of +0.

So, I'm guessing they're all even to actually bring a noticeable effect to your stats, so an Elf with his Dex bonus and Con penality feels more "Elfy" then a human.

I'm guessing it's the mechanical application of a preceived design philosophy.

Hope that helps!

[FearlessGnome]

Convention more than anything, I think.

The books tell you that if a race is listed as having Strength 15, a rolled/point-buy'd character should simply have a racial modifier of +4 instead of +5. Houseruling differently is fine, but WotC seems to have felt it was simpler this way.

[The Glyphstone]

Not really. Because ability bonuses increase every 2 points, having +1's to stats wouldn't actually change anything. All it would do is mean people put their 15 or 17 into a key stat rather than their 14 or 16. Stat diversity would stay the same, it would just change the underlying character creation math to get those stats.

[hushblade]

It's because your stats have to go up or down 2 points to effect your modifier.

That was kind of my point, even numbers are mechanically easier to achieve(at least with point buy) than odd numbers, and are strictly preferred to odd numbers.

Come to think of it, making the point buy cost go up when trying for an even number would actually encourage stat diversity a bit better than racial bonuses being odd...

[nedz]

Odd stats are a better buy in a point buy system because every 4 levels you get to add a +1 which leaves you in the next bracket. This is less useful for SAD characters.
A +1 stat boost would create an obvious, though minor, exploit.

[Jasdoif]

An even bonus/penalty on the ability score has a consistent effect on the ability modifier. An elf's +2 to Dex, for example, will always result in an elf's Dex modifier being +1 higher.

This isn't the case for an odd bonus/penalty, though:
For an odd bonus, the ability modifier will only increase with an odd base score assigned. With a +1 bonus, 15(+2) becomes 16(+3); while 14(+2) becomes 15(+2)
For an odd penalty, the ability modifier will only decrease with an even base score assigned. With a -1 penalty, 15(+2) becomes 14(+2); while 14(+2) becomes 13(+1).

So it's always advantageous to assign an odd ability score to any ability that has an odd modifier to it. Which...I don't think would promote numeric diversity.


I believe ability score requirements for feats are supposed to be odd for the sake of making it not "all evens, all the time!"....But I'm not sure how effective that is, or even how often it's adhered to.

If I were to look for a method to "fix" the whole issue, it'd make the most sense to me to get rid of the underlying ability scores entirely, and track ability modifiers directly. (Doesn't True20 do this?)

[Particle_Man]

It is not about the point buy games, really. It is about the "roll 4d6 drop the lowest" games. Because it allows people to cheese out a bit by choosing the right race to give them an additional stat bonus from that race choice, rather than a nothing.

Case in point assume a 3.x game:

Imagine I roll: str 14, dex 13, con 15, int 14, wis 14, cha 14

If we change the race mods to +1 rather than +2 then in 3.5 the elf suddenly gets 14 to dex (a change from a +1 to a +2 bonus) and no change to con modifier. A half-orc loses on int and cha modifiers and gains nothing (except a little carrying capacity) from str. So there would be a strong reason to take an elf over a half-orc based purely on getting "more plusses" and "no minuses".

As it is, with +2 stats, every stat change by race means a modifier change.

Of course it doesn't change the imbalance of the races, nor of some stats being "dump stats" for various character concepts.

By the way, in 1st and 2nd ed AD&D games the stat changes by race were +1. Of course sometimes this made no difference to the modifiers anyhow, as there was a bigger "zero modifier zone" for most stats in those editions.

[KillianHawkeye]

The point buy system already encourages the even numbered stats(since it costs more to go to every new odd number) as well as Even numbered stats already being optimal, wouldn't odd numbered bonuses encourage more diverse stats?


That was kind of my point, even numbers are mechanically easier to achieve(at least with point buy) than odd numbers, and are strictly preferred to odd numbers.

Come to think of it, making the point buy cost go up when trying for an even number would actually encourage stat diversity a bit better than racial bonuses being odd...

First you need to explain to me why having more diverse stats (in the sense of evens/odds) is a desirable goal.

[motoko's ghost]

Back in 1st Ed the stat adjustments were +/- 1, however that generally had a greater impact than it would in 3.5

There are a couple of spells/templates that give odd-numbered bonuses though.

[nedz]

It is not about the point buy games, really. It is about the "roll 4d6 drop the lowest" games. Because it allows people to cheese out a bit by choosing the right race to give them an additional stat bonus from that race choice, rather than a nothing.

Really ?
I don't think it makes much difference whether you use PB or 3f4d6, or are you assuming an in-order method ?

There are a couple of spells/templates that give odd-numbered bonuses though.
Which spells/templates, purely out of curiosity ?

[motoko's ghost]

Warbeast for one, I'll have to dig through my books for the others but I've seen them

[Particle_Man]

Really ?
I don't think it makes much difference whether you use PB or 3f4d6, or are you assuming an in-order method ?

Which spells/templates, purely out of curiosity ?

In order. And we walked uphill both ways through the snow, etc. :smallsmile:

Oh, and back to 3.5 the "magic books" and "wishes" cap at +5 to ability scores, which is an odd number (but I guess together make an even number though). But that is later in the game unless you start high level.

[tyckspoon]

Oh, and back to 3.5 the "magic books" and "wishes" cap at +5 to ability scores, which is an odd number (but I guess together make an even number though). But that is later in the game unless you start high level.

Those are the same bonus. You can get to the +5 via Wishes or Tomes, but it's just +5 either way. I think those are meant to pair to the 5 points you get through leveling to 20.

[erikun]

The point is no doubt so that everyone getting the bonuses (or penalities) notices the change. +2 to a stat means an even +1 bonus for that stat, regardless of what your previous score was.

[Particle_Man]

Those are the same bonus. You can get to the +5 via Wishes or Tomes, but it's just +5 either way. I think those are meant to pair to the 5 points you get through leveling to 20.

I sit corrected! :smallredface:

What else - I guess odd stats are useful for some feat prerequisites. In fact it is hard to find feat prerequisites that are not odd.

Also, I guess both odd and even stats are useful for the spellcasting stat (since you need the stat to be 10 + X to cast X level spells), although I have yet to meet a caster in 3.x that has so low a spellcasting stat that this becomes an issue. That could be interesting though. A high level sorcerer with magic missle, cha 11, and a ton of metamagic feats, perhaps?

What else - dex breaks ties in initiative, doesn't it?

Other than that, it helps buffer vs. ability damage/drain a little.

[KillianHawkeye]

What else - dex breaks ties in initiative, doesn't it?

Only in the sense that it affects your initiative modifier, but an odd number won't help there.

If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll again to determine which one of them goes before the other.

[Petey7]

What else - dex breaks ties in initiative, doesn't it?


Depends on the DM. Some say that Dex modifier breaks the tie; if they are the same, reroll. Some just have you reroll with modifiers, and others have you reroll without.

[animewatcha]

To help avoid rerolling in a tie, one could go the route of saying the highest natural ( non-magical modified ) modifier goes first.

[Ashtagon]

Odd stats are a better buy in a point buy system because every 4 levels you get to add a +1 which leaves you in the next bracket. This is less useful for SAD characters.
A +1 stat boost would create an obvious, though minor, exploit.

Pretty much this. It was a deliberate early-stage design decision to make race ability bonuses even numbers only.

[FMArthur]

The system of always giving +2 and -2 is the game's effort at avoiding having to deal with any consequences of odd-numbered scores being kind of dumb with the system.

Anyway as a design rule, they made sure that any feats requiring minimum ability scores always require odd numbers, and that is supposed to be their use to characters in the system. Pretty pointless and pretty forced.


Really is there any reason why the middle man of ability scores should have existed to begin with and not have a character's stats just be the actual modifiers?

[prufock]

Anyone else suspecting that 5th edition might see the end of this issue? I sort of anticipate ability scores to become the equivalent of ability modifiers as they are now. That is: your strength score is 2; you add 2 to strength-based checks.

This is how third editions Mutants and Masterminds did it, and it's a good system.

[navar100]

In 3.0, initiative ties were won by those who had the higher Dex. A Dex 13 creature would thus go before a Dex 12 creature if they both rolled 14. Reroll if still tie but just to decide between them who goes first.

3.5 changed this to whoever has the higher total modifier goes first. This means a creature with Dex 12 and Improved Initiative who rolled a 10 goes before the Dex 13 creature who rolled a 14 because the former has +5 to initiative and the latter only +1.

My group retained the higher Dex tiebreaker. Mostly because the change wasn't realized by everyone but me long ago during the switch from 3.0 to 3.5, we were used to it, and it wasn't a problem for us so why bother.

I think I still am the only one who knows of the rule change. Now we're playing Pathfinder, and I don't recall what the tie breaker rule is at all for it. We really don't care.

[Particle_Man]

Really is there any reason why the middle man of ability scores should have existed to begin with and not have a character's stats just be the actual modifiers?

You mean historically? Rolling 3 6-sided dice and adding the number up to get scores made more sense back then, to people already used to rolling dice and adding the numbers (not just for war games, but for monopoly style board games). Point-buy did not exist yet and the modifiers were small except at the rare extremes and the "middle zones" of zero modifiers quite large.