[3.5] Healer/Rogue build? Anybody?

[Rossebay]

I'm always the top player in my RL groups.

I know that I overshadow the other players often, and I try to do that less and less as time goes on.

So I figured what would be cool is a build focusing on healing them, but with some combat contribution in the form of sneak attack, fluff-able as being a medic who knows just where to strike.

Any suggestions?

EDIT: Scout is also acceptable.

[hivedragon]

shadowbane stalker (CAd) comes to mind

[Jasdoif]

So I figured what would be cool is a build focusing on healing them, but with some combat contribution in the form of sneak attack, fluff-able as being a medic who knows just where to strike.There's actually a spell presented with that kind of fluff already: healer's vision (Complete Scoundrel). Seems to fit with your concept: Gives you an insight bonus on Heal checks, extra healing with your cure spells, and a bonus on attack and damage rolls when delivering precision damage (such as sneak attack) against a living target. All that with a single cast of a 1st-level spell.

That said, its actual usefulness is questionable: it has a short duration and only one of the effects scales at all (the extra on cure spells is 1 hp per spell level of the cure spell).

[absolmorph]

Does anyone have a trick to make the cure spells into a ranged touch attack? Because if you roll an attack for them, then you can get sneak attack, too. They heal with positive energy damage, so...

[Azoth]

Human rogue 3/cleric3/divine trickster 10/full divine spellcasting prc4. Able learner and practiced spellcaster are musts. Caster level 20, level 8 spells, most of the rogue goodies and unless optimized or using early entry tricks you can have fun with your party and not completely overshadow them.

[Circle of Life]

If you want to do this without the temptation of spellcasting, I'd recommend the Plague Doctor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214607). It sounds like exactly what you're after.

Otherwise, use one of the above suggestions, but replace Cleric with Healer so you don't have the temptation of the Cleric spell list.

[Rossebay]

If you want to do this without the temptation of spellcasting, I'd recommend the Plague Doctor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214607). It sounds like exactly what you're after.

Otherwise, use one of the above suggestions, but replace Cleric with Healer so you don't have the temptation of the Cleric spell list.

That's my exact issue. Temptations.

I'd have to go with the healer route. My gaming group still isn't to the point that we'll Homebrew yet.

[gorfnab]

Chirurgeon Vivisectionist Alchemist ported over from Pathfinder could work.

[Curmudgeon]

The Sacred Outlaw feat (Dragon # 357, page 86) stacks your Rogue and Cleric levels for undead turning and sneak attack. That seems like it would work well for this combination (keeping your sneak attack up while you gain healing).

The Improved Power feat (Dragon # 342, page 21), when applied to the Healing domain, will let you cast Touch range Healing subschool spells at Close range instead.

[hamiltond465]

Classes:
Holy Liberator(for fluff reasons, not ability reasons) Complete Divine pg45
Radiant Servant of Pelor(healer class)Complete Divine pg52
dagger spell shaper(druid/rogue PrC) complete adventurer pg 36
Exemplar(one level dip to pick up +4 competence to heal, and 1+int skill mastery) complete adventurer pg 45

feats that may fit the theme:

Subduing Strike: ability to deal nonlethal damage with sneak attacks, no penalty on attack roll for using lethal weapon - book of exalted deeds, pg46

Magic Of The Land: make a free action knowledge(Nature) check (dc 15+ spell level) while in a natural area. any targets of your spell takes an additional 2 points of positive energy damage(healing) per spell level in addition to the spell's normal effects


another, simple way to be a healer/sneaky dude:
scout 1/variant druid 19
be the variant druid from unearthed arcana pg 48:
lose: wildshape, shield and armor proficiency
gain: wisdom to AC(as monk), bonus to armor when unarmored(as monk), fast movement(as monk), favored enemy(as ranger), Track feat, swift tracker(as ranger). heck, cut out the ranger stuff too if you want
feats:
Able Learner(all skills cost only 1 point to buy)races of destiny pg 150
Swift Avenger (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Swift_Avenger) making druid and scout levels stack for skirmish
Subduing Strike(convince your dm to let it work for skirmish maybe, or just get a weapon with the Merciful enchantment)
Magic Of The Land
perhaps take the vow of nonviolence?

I would suggest role-playing your character as having a dislike of hurting things in general. Make a point of not taking damage spells or even ONLY take buffs and healing.

Non-magical healing is kind of a useless skill, but I guess you could do a pure rogue/scout with able learner and an exemplar dip if you really want to restrict yourself.
able learner, subduing strike, Weapon finesse, Two weapon fighting...

[JadePhoenix]

I second the Vivisectionist Alchemist suggestion

EDIT: Also, Complete Scoundrel has a spell called Healer's Vision - bonus to sneak attack damage and to Heal checks.

[Dr.Orpheus]

Healin' n' Stealin' I built a character like that once he a CN cleric/rouge that escaped prison with a long wooden shank that was also a wand of CLW. This shank is a worthy improvised weapon so you don't need switch between your stabbing and healing tools. The shank not being as powerful as a dagger does not matter sense most of your damage is from your sneak attack.

[avr]

Crusader (ToB) or better, a Warblade with some strikes from Devoted Spirit via feats or dips could do this. It's not precision damage per se, but bonus damage on a standard action attack might fit your vision better than TWF'ing sneak attack.

[Rossebay]

Rogue 2/Scout 1/Druid 17
Swift Ambusher, Swift Avenger.
But then it's only 1d6 sneak... Hmm.

[Person_Man]

Have you considered Bard? A variety of healing and buff spells, Skills, and the ability to contribute to melee via Bardic Music tricks (Snowflake Wardance, Dragonfire Inspiration, etc).

[Rossebay]

Have you considered Bard? A variety of healing and buff spells, Skills, and the ability to contribute to melee via Bardic Music tricks (Snowflake Wardance, Dragonfire Inspiration, etc).

I'd optimize it too much.
And even if I didn't the spell list has too many goodies to pass up.

[nedz]

Does anyone have a trick to make the cure spells into a ranged touch attack? Because if you roll an attack for them, then you can get sneak attack, too. They heal with positive energy damage, so...

So all you have to do is sneak up to your patients and surprise them with a cure light wounds, and then add your sneak damage as positive energy to heal them ? You would need to roll to hit.

Does this work ?

Against undead: as damage, if they were susceptible to your precision damage, it would; but otherwise ?

Neat trick if it does.

Ed: this reminds me of a scene in Carry on Matron involving a hypodermic needle and an unsuspecting bottom :smallbiggrin:

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

If you can swing it, the generic class "Expert" from Unearthed Arcana could give you all you need by taking the sneak attack 'bonus feat'. Expert 1/Cleric 19 with Sacred Outlaw would give you 9th level spell and 12d6 of Sneak Attack damage.

[deuxhero]

The Giant's Divine Trickster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9623145&postcount=7)?

[Feralventas]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/vivisectionist

If Pathfinder is allowed, look no further than the Vivisectionist.

If not, I believe a Cleric with the Trickery domain would qualify easily for the Assassin PrC. Bard definitely can, and can also pick up Augment Healing and the like for their Cure spells while buffing the party to help them out as well.

[nedz]

There are very few PrCs for Clerics and Rogues, many of which require Turn Undead which is tricky for Healers. So there is an optimisation challange right here: Get into a PrC requiring TU without taking cleric. This is not impossible, but is not straightforward.

Alternatively play a multiclassed character without taking any PrC. You will be quite limited at high level.

Some ideas which are close to what you are looking for, but are a little different.

Mystic Ranger into Stormlord. This does sort of work work, but isn't very powerful. Quite hard to optimise, but not impossible.
Swift Hunter is an obvious route for Scout/Mystic Ranger/Stormlord, and will be so feat intensive you'll be running to stand still - optimisation wise.

I was going to Suggest Warlock/Healer into Eldritch Disciple, but ED requires Turn Undead so you'd have to be Warlock/Cleric/ED or get TU by some other method.

[hamiltond465]

Spells as Sneak Attacks (www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a)

Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage can be used in a sneak attack. In this case "damage" is normal damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. You can sneak attack with a Melf's acid arrow spell, but not with a magic missile spell.

Ranged spells are effective as sneak attacks only at ranges of 30 feet or less (just like any other ranged sneak attack).

A successful sneak attack with a weaponlike spell inflicts extra damage according to the attacker's sneak attack ability, and the extra damage dealt is the same type as the spell deals. For example, a 10th-level rogue who makes a successful sneak attack with a Melf's acid arrow spell inflicts 2d4 points of acid damage, plus an extra 5d6 points of acid damage from the sneak attack (note that continuing damage from this spell is not part of the sneak attack). Spells that inflict energy drains or ability damage deal extra negative energy damage in a sneak attack, not extra negative levels or ability damage. For example, a 10th-level rogue who makes a successful sneak attack with an enervation spell deals 1d4 negative levels plus an extra 5d6 points of negative energy damage.

If the sneak attack with a weaponlike spell results in a critical hit, the damage from the spell is doubled but the extra sneak attack damage is not doubled (as with any sneak attack).

With spell effects that allow you to make multiple attack rolls, such as the energy orb spells or the Split Ray feat from Tome and Blood, you must treat the effect like a volley -- only the first attack can be a sneak attack.Emphasis added.

I see no reason why you can't sneak attack with cure light wounds.
It does have an attack roll, it's just that party members intentionally fail the check(you would have to roll to hit an enemy).
Deals positive energy damage.

really, the question would be how to get good SA progression while keeping full cleric casting.
...
but you know what, why not just take 5 levels of rogue and then 15 cleric or some other mix. you will no longer have to worry about being optimized as all get out :smallbiggrin:
I would probably stagger the levels in the beginning, so you have some healing at all times.r/c/r/c/r/c/r/c/r/c11
you may need to ask your dm about the conditions you can Sneak attack with cures spells in

[Curmudgeon]

I see no reason why you can't sneak attack with cure light wounds.
It does have an attack roll, it's just that party members intentionally fail the check(you would have to roll to hit an enemy).
Deals positive energy damage.
You're misremembering the spell particulars, I think.
When laying your hand upon a living creature, you channel positive energy that cures 1d8 points of damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +5).

Since undead are powered by negative energy, this spell deals damage to them instead of curing their wounds. There's no damage if the spell is curing; damage is only specified if the target is undead. Also there's no attack roll for willing target touch spells; that's specific to enemies. From Player's Handbook on page 141:
Touch Attacks: Since you need only touch your enemy, you make a touch attack instead of a regular attack. Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Finally, the rules don't allow you to "intentionally fail the check" for an attack. You only hit when the attack roll total equals or exceeds the target's AC, and characters can't just make themselves suddenly have lower AC. The rules for willing target touch spells and touch attack spells simply are different. The fact that Cure Light Wounds can fall into both categories doesn't permit you to mix and match parts of those rules; you have to follow all the willing target spell rules when you're curing, and all the attack spell rules when you're trying to deal damage.

[nedz]

...really, the question would be how to get good SA progression while keeping full cleric casting...

Well there's the Sacred Outlaw feat - but it is Dragon material.

Sacred Outlaw Dragon 357 p86
Pre Reqs: Ability to Turn/Rebuke,Undead, Sneak Attack +2d6
Add your effective Cleric level to your Rogue level to

Resolve Turning Checks & Turning Damage
How many Sneak Attack dice you receive

[hamiltond465]

From Player's Handbook on page 141: Finally, the rules don't allow you to "intentionally fail the check" for an attack. You only hit when the attack roll total equals or exceeds the target's AC, and characters can't just make themselves suddenly have lower AC.
Where are the rules for willing targets? I wasn't able to find them in the PHB or DMG. It isn't on PHB 141...('you may automatically touch one friend or yourself')
My assumption was that if your character wanted to let it happen, he 'intentionally fails his check'. for instance:

All buff spells have a will save, that is denoted as harmless
friendly touch attacks
the player makes a diplomacy check and says something like 'f#%$ you'

I have a die with all ones on it for this very reason

[Curmudgeon]

Where are the rules for willing targets?
They're in two places in the Player's Handbook: pages 140-141 (the Combat chapter) and page 175 (the Magic chapter). The first reference is a bit confusing, as it jumbles together the essence of the touch spell rules from the Magic chapter into one terse paragraph, then immediately follows that with a Touch Attacks paragraph. This may leave the reader with the impression that all touch spells are attacks, which is not the case.

Anyway, touching allies is part of casting a willing target touch spell; it works on as many willing targets as you can reach, and no attack roll is needed. A touch attack spell, on the other hand, requires a successful attack roll, but that's not done as part of the casting; instead you finish casting the spell and then may move before making the attack to (try to) deliver the spell charge. That attack is a bonus granted in the rules for touch attack spells, but the bonus expires at the end of the casting round. Still, you can use a swift action (maybe to cast another spell), a standard action to cast the touch attack spell, a move action to advance on your intended target, and still have that attack available, so it's a pretty nice bonus in the rules.

[hamiltond465]

I think my biggest problem with defining a 'willing target touch spell' is that it never gets defined, just inferred.

at any rate, after some online searching, it appears the general consensus is that cure spells can neither be critically hit or have sneak attack damage applied. I figure it has something to do with what a cleric1/rogue19 can do with Cure Minor Wounds.

Which I just don't get, seriously. I would house rule at least some bonus to healing for knowing the critical places on a person's body the way a rogue seems to. There isn't even a dragon feat for it...

How do cure spells work on unwilling targets that are not undead?
All positive energy, damage or otherwise, heals living creatures and injures undead one, and vice-versa for negative energy.
Is healing defined anywhere besides the Cure spell?

my logic for curing sneak attacks is more or less thus:
-Cure X Wounds heals living and harms undead.
-Cure spells also require a touch attack to hit, though most people don't realize this until they try to hit an undead with it, because willing targets aren't going to try to dodge. No DM would make someone roll a touch attack every time they wanted to heal an ally who is spreading his arms wide to welcome it. Since they require an attack roll, this means that Cure spells can crit (PHB p140, Critical Hits sidebar). (I ask about unwilling living targets because the cleric would have to roll to attack, because the person is trying to dodge, thus crits)
-Cure X wounds states that you specifically channel positive energy to provide the healing of the spell, just how Inflict states that you channel negative energy.
-Positive and Negative Energy are damage types (Rules Compendium p42).
-Positive Energy: A white, luminous energy that originates on the Positive Material Plane. In general, positive energy heals the living
and hurts undead creatures. (PHB 311)

The only hole I see in my argument is that 'healing' must be defined somewhere as a completely different class, and to my eyes it isn't.
The fact that cure light wounds 'channels positive energy to heal the target' has no bearing on healing being different than damage, since there are no spells that deal damage to a living creature with positive energy. The only way (so far as I know) for someone to get hurt by positive energy is via getting overcharged by the Positive Energy Plane and exploding.

The only reason I can think of as to why this doesn't work:
'I don't care if the rules could *seem* to allow it, it's against the spirit of the thing, so NO.'


So... fine. No healing sneak attacks. Just means I have to write a houserule.


PS: After writing allll this, I found that 'damage' is defined as anything that lowers a creature's hitpoints or some other number. So healing isn't damage, I guess.

[Jasdoif]

All positive energy, damage or otherwise, heals living creatures and injures undead one, and vice-versa for negative energy.Bolt of glory (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/boltOfGlory.htm) damages living creatures with positive energy. Well, the description there says "a bolt of energy from the Positive Energy Plane", but it was reprinted with only minor rewording in Complete Divine, and the short description there says "Positive energy ray deals extra damage to evil outsiders and undead." If the positive energy aspect that doubles the total damage to undead automatically healed living targets, as you propose, the spell would have almost no effect (since half of the damage to undead would be healing, and one-half minus one-half is zero).

[nedz]

Ironically there is a Dragon Feat (see above) which would allow

Cleric 1/Rogue 19 to turn undead as a Cleric 20
Cleric 19/Rogue 1 to have 10d6 sneak
Cleric 17/Rogue 3 to have 10d6 sneak

Thats the thing about 3.5: it has lots of options, but some doors are closed, and other doors are totally broken.

I did homebrew an arcane positive energy bolt cantrip along the lines of Electric Jolt or Acid Splash. This ought to be researchable - well thats Wizard's for you.

CMage also has the Healing Blast essence for Eldritch Disciples. This has a roll to hit and damages undead or cures the living.
Using Eldritch Spellweave a 5th level ED could also stack a spell onto their blast, so long as its a spell which deals damage. Thus they could Eldritch Spellweave a cure light wounds onto an Eldritch Blast that targetted undead, but not one which targetted a living creature.

Ed: Fixed errors

[Curmudgeon]

Ironically there is a Dragon Feat (see above) which would allow

Cleric 1/Rogue 19 to turn undead as a Cleric 20
Cleric 19/Rogue 1 to have 10d6 sneak

Well, #1 works OK. #2 is harder, because you won't normally qualify for Sacred Outlaw with Rogue 1; you'd need Rogue 3 or some other source of (stacking) sneak attack (typically either 2 more feats, or a prestige class dip).

[Jasdoif]

Using Eldritch Spellweave a 5th level ED could also stack a spell onto their blast, so long as its a spell which deals damage. Thus they could Eldritch Spellweave a cure light wounds onto an Eldritch Blast that targetted undead, but not one which targetted a living creature.Eldritch spellweave applies an essence to a spell, not a spell to a blast. You're probably thinking of spellblast and greatreach blast, which belong to the eldritch theurge and not the eldritch disciple (those two are very easy to get confused, both being invocation-and-spellcasting dual progression classes with adjacent entries in the book...and both of them get eldritch spellweave)

Also, the only "spell which deals damage" restriction is if you apply an essence that changes the damage (say, vitriolic blast changing the damage type to acid). Eldritch spellweave only requires that the spell affect a target or require a touch attack or ranged touched attack, and greatreach blast requires that the bundled spell has a range of touch; both of which cure light wounds would qualify for.

[nedz]

Well, #1 works OK. #2 is harder, because you won't normally qualify for Sacred Outlaw with Rogue 1; you'd need Rogue 3 or some other source of (stacking) sneak attack (typically either 2 more feats, or a prestige class dip).

Yes - it should have been Cleric 17/Rogue 3

[nedz]

Eldritch spellweave applies an essence to a spell, not a spell to a blast. You're probably thinking of spellblast and greatreach blast, which belong to the eldritch theurge and not the eldritch disciple (those two are very easy to get confused, both being invocation-and-spellcasting dual progression classes with adjacent entries in the book...and both of them get eldritch spellweave)

Also, the only "spell which deals damage" restriction is if you apply an essence that changes the damage (say, vitriolic blast changing the damage type to acid). Eldritch spellweave only requires that the spell affect a target or require a touch attack or ranged touched attack, and greatreach blast requires that the bundled spell has a range of touch; both of which cure light wounds would qualify for.
No I simply mis-read this.
So I could add Vitriolic Blast to Cure Light Wounds and do acid damage, and ignore SR ? Obviously there are better spells to do this to.

[Quietus]

The problem with trying to sneak attack heal is this - sneak attack deals damage. Positive energy is shown in several places to be damaging. Bolt of Glory was mentioned here, and going to the Positive Energy Plane is how you get Death By Awesome. You can, in fact, make a sneak attack with a Heal spell - but you aren't going to get extra free healing. Your Sneak Attack Cure Light Wounds will do 1d8+1 points of healing and Xd6 positive energy damage. Positive energy damage is not the same as "free healing"; it'd work counter to your Cure spell. The best you can get from this is using Cure Minor Wounds to deliver a sneak attack as a touch attack, by sacrificing a single point of damage from it.