How bad would it be if Redcloak succeeded?

[Biggoron]

I have been thinking about this for a while and would like to see what other people think about this. please note that there may be spoilers to start of darkness and/or the oragin of pcs.


would it really be so bad if redcloak succeeded? all he(and the dark one) want to do if improve the lives of the goblin people, Xykon is the one with world domination in mind.

[MesiDoomstalker]

It really depends on what exactly will change. If Goblins become the dominant species, like Human's are now, things will be very very bad for all current dominant/"good" species. If it simplies means that Goblins are no longer viewed as cannon fodder and are judged individually on basis of actions, not race, then it wouldn't be too bad if at all detrimental.

[t209]

And the story would have ended by Start of Darkness.

[Chess Tyrant]

I figure Redcloak doesn't (yet) plan on exterminating humans, and that the Dark One's ultimate goal is just to not have any sentient species act as xp fodder for adventurers. He wouldn't make things intolerably bad for any other race, for a lot of reasons.

[zimmerwald1915]

I figure Redcloak doesn't (yet) plan on exterminating humans, and that the Dark One's ultimate goal is just to not have any sentient species act as xp fodder for adventurers. He wouldn't make things intolerably bad for any other race, for a lot of reasons.
That's certainly a rosy view. I'd be interested in hearing these "lot of reasons", unless it's necessary for the rosy view to be maintained that they stay vague and unspecified.

[Steward]

I'm honestly concerned that the Dark One is in over his head. This thing murdered an entire pantheon of greater deities. Are we sure that it's not going to break free of his control and curb-stomp the universe again?

[NerfTW]

I have been thinking about this for a while and would like to see what other people think about this. please note that there may be spoilers to start of darkness and/or the oragin of pcs.


would it really be so bad if redcloak sucseeded? all he(and the dark one) want to do if improve the lives of the goblin people, Xykon is the one with world domination in mind.

Well, for starters, the plan itself has the potential to unmake reality, killing billions. So the end result is still not worth the risk.

Also, we don't know if it would work at all. And for all we know, the Dark One is lying to Red Cloak as well, or working off incorrect information. Notice that the Snarl has not reached out of the rift in Azure City, despite the Crayons of Time (and the flashback in SOD) story clearly showing the Snarl being able to kill through the rift.

So... yeah. Really unlikely that it's going to be as simple as

Step 1: Make demands
Step 2: Get demands met
Step 3: Everybody wins!

[Yellow]

Goblins are nothing but savage animals and they deserve their cannon fodder status.

[Belril Duskwalk]

I think the badness of it depends on how truthful The Dark One is about what he actually wants. And if he's actually going to be satisfied with what he says he wants. If the ritual works properly, and The Dark One only takes what he has told Redcloak he wants... I don't think Redcloak succeeding is necessarily bad. Especially if the Goblinoids and Humanoids can break their cycle of violence once the field is even.

[Excise]

Not sure if it's ever mentioned anywhere, but if the Snarl gets loose and reboots the world, I assume everyone currently in the world gets killed.

That'd be pretty bad.

[Mr. Pants]

You made a typo in the title! :smalleek:

Anyways, hopefully things will go right, otherwise The Dark One will receive a Snarl tendril through the chest.

[Steward]

You made a typo in the title! :smalleek:


Ugh, it should be 'Redclaok', right?

[Shiim]

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess unmaking the known universe is pretty high up there on the scale of badness regardless of what your intent is.

[Particle_Man]

1. Goblins achieve "not cannon fodder" status. Presumably they can be PCs.

2. The gods realize that their followers are kinda lame as 1st level dweebs.

3. Another "cannon fodder" race is invented to solve this problem.

If step 2 does not happen, then one wonders why not, since that was the reason for goblins being created in the first place. What makes post-RC succeeding different from pre-Goblin creation?

[DrBurr]

1. Goblins achieve "not cannon fodder" status. Presumably they can be PCs.

2. The gods realize that their followers are kinda lame as 1st level dweebs.

3. Another "cannon fodder" race is invented to solve this problem.

If step 2 does not happen, then one wonders why not, since that was the reason for goblins being created in the first place. What makes post-RC succeeding different from pre-Goblin creation?

Ooooh oooh ooh, Another world of people are unmade by the Snarl!

[t209]

What if I went out of control? I mean snarl could kill The Dark One accidentally.

[JSSheridan]

'Succeeded'

So instead of of small bands of goblins raiding human settlements and parties of adventurers who respond to the threat, we'd have goblin nations invading human/dwarf/elf nations in all out wars. Congratulations Redcloak, you've succeeded in increasing the scope of the conflict.

Wars & XP's is a preview of what will happen all around the world if RC wins.

[Biggoron]

'Succeeded'

So instead of of small bands of goblins raiding human settlements and parties of adventurers who respond to the threat, we'd have goblin nations invading human/dwarf/elf nations in all out wars. Congratulations Redcloak, you've succeeded in increasing the scope of the conflict.

Wars & XP's is a preview of what will happen all around the world if RC wins.

I don't think so. The reason goblins raid so often if that they need to, to survive, because of what the gods did to thier development as a race, the proof is what azure city is doing, rather than attacking the nearest city they are educating thier young and making trade agreements. also the legions that Redcloak & Xykon took control of were almost certaintly self-sustaining, a war based economy would not work for a settlement that large.

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't think so. The reason goblins raid so often if that they need to, to survive, because of what the gods did to thier development as a race, the proof is what azure city is doing, rather than attacking the nearest city they are educating thier young and making trade agreements. also the legions that Redcloak & Xykon took control of were self-sustaining.
Jirix, who claims he's repeating the words of the Dark One, characterizes Gobbotopia's relationship with the surrounding powers as adversarial rather than fraternal. Diplomacy and trade, for him, are not means of living together, but war by other means.

[t209]

The countries that recognize Gobbotopia might be scared of the Lich and the Redcloak or had beef with Azure City and her allies (Cliffport had beef with elves).

[MyNameIsSecret]

would it really be so bad if redcloak succeeded? all he(and the dark one) want to do if improve the lives of the goblin people, Xykon is the one with world domination in mind.

No, it wouldn't be bad. But there's a lot more to it than that.

The lengths RC has and will go to to succeed, for example. Destroying the Azurite city, allying with Xykon, killing elves - his intentions may be noble, but his moral compass is warped.

And of course, the fact that if he fails, the entire world, and everything in it, will be destroyed.


So instead of of small bands of goblins raiding human settlements and parties of adventurers who respond to the threat, we'd have goblin nations invading human/dwarf/elf nations in all out wars. Congratulations Redcloak, you've succeeded in increasing the scope of the conflict.

Wars & XP's is a preview of what will happen all around the world if RC wins.

That's debatable. The whole reason the goblins raid human settlements is because they were never given enough to live with. When they achieve equality, they will (most likely) stop. Sure, there will be wars, but there always wars between different species and nations. I don't see why the goblins are going decide to conquer the whole word. However, what will happen after equality will be uncertain.


1. Goblins achieve "not cannon fodder" status. Presumably they can be PCs.

2. The gods realize that their followers are kinda lame as 1st level dweebs.

3. Another "cannon fodder" race is invented to solve this problem.

If step 2 does not happen, then one wonders why not, since that was the reason for goblins being created in the first place. What makes post-RC succeeding different from pre-Goblin creation?

Well, I doubt the Gods would be stupid enough to restart the wbole cycle again, after seeing what happened with the goblins. But they've done some stupid things before...


I'm going to go out on a limb and guess unmaking the known universe is pretty high up there on the scale of badness regardless of what your intent is.

But RC does not WANT to unmake the universe, and nor is he TRYING TO. He might be taking a very high risk that may or may not be justified, but that doesn't make him evil. Maybe it makes him stupid, or narrow-minded, or too sure of himself, but it doesn't make him evil.

[The Extinguisher]

I think it's a pretty big stretch, seeing Gobbotopia, to think that they're going to stop at "Goblins are Equal" and not just go straight into "Goblins are Better."

Not to mention all the other non-goblinoid monstrous races that are going to be ignored.

[Math_Mage]

Um, can I consider this thread subject to an SoD spoilers tag?

Considering that the Plan essentially revolves around holding the gods hostage while they "renegotiate" (this is made graphically clear when the pictured negotiation involves TDO saying "let's do this again, only I'm the one with the secret assassin"), it seems unlikely that the only change will be to give goblins a fair shake. Beyond that, goblinkind has developed a generally warlike outlook towards other races, due partly to the circumstances of their creation, and partly to TDO's own impact on his people while mortal, dead, and ascended; giving them a bigger share of the pie isn't necessarily going to eliminate that outlook, rather than simply giving them more to fight with.

So, it could be fine, or it could be very, very bad. And that's if everything goes as planned and the world isn't unmade.

Last point: Regardless of Redcloak's stated goal of achieving goblin equality through The Plan, goblins ALREADY have the means to achieve equality through control of Azure City and the surrounding area. So it's hard to imagine what The Plan will accomplish without going overboard.

[MyNameIsSecret]

Beyond that, goblinkind has developed a generally warlike outlook towards other races, due partly to the circumstances of their creation, and partly to TDO's own impact on his people while mortal, dead, and ascended; giving them a bigger share of the pie isn't necessarily going to eliminate that outlook, rather than simply giving them more to fight with.


I figure Redcloak doesn't (yet) plan on exterminating humans, and that the Dark One's ultimate goal is just to not have any sentient species act as xp fodder for adventurers. He wouldn't make things intolerably bad for any other race, for a lot of reasons.


That's certainly a rosy view. I'd be interested in hearing these "lot of reasons", unless it's necessary for the rosy view to be maintained that they stay vague and unspecified.

It comes down to this, really - is RC's contempt for humans and other species strong enough to overcome his self-reasoning? Because I don't see any reason he would waste goblin lives, attacking the other races and bringing down war on his nation - which would ultimately end up with a lot dead goblins. Would he do that, fuelled by hatred? Or would he sit back and strengthen his defences, and only attack for a real reason? Like resources? We've seen both sides of RC (emotional and practical) so it's hard to tell.

[Particle_Man]

Good point, Math Mage. Remember Jirix squashing the roach. That could be the hobgoblins squashing everyone under their tyrannical rule, forever, if the Dark One succeeds.

[hamishspence]

Not to mention all the other non-goblinoid monstrous races that are going to be ignored.

Gobbotopia has already become a "haven" for those monstrous races- it's not that big a jump for them to be included- since it would be a bit of a turnaround for the goblins to start hunting them for XP after they've become citizens of Gobbotopia.

[LadyEowyn]

It's a very good question.

Logically (as opposed to narratively), it's extremely unlikely that Redcloak's plan could actually endanger the world's existence. The gods aren't going to want to be destroyed by the Snarl, so they'll concede to the Dark One's demands.

The only matter at stake in that regard is then - how extensive will those demands be? If it's just rewriting the world so that goblins aren't XP fodder, then Redcloak succeeding would be a net plus. If it's the goblins ruling everyone, that's not so good, but that doesn't seem likely - for one thing, the hobgoblins like war, so they'd probably prefer to win on their own merits rather than just be handed an empire to rule. And the goblins may not want to push their luck in demanding too much.

On the whole I'd have to say that, at the very least, Redcloak's plan is a lot less dangerous to the world than what we formerly thought he and Xykon were going to due (harness the Snarl's power to rule the world). It's also less dangerous than destroying one of the two remaining gates, so if the heroes destroy another one to keep it from Redcloak it's safe to say that they're a greater threat to the world's survival than Redcloak is.

[Gitman00]

It's a very good question.

Logically (as opposed to narratively), it's extremely unlikely that Redcloak's plan could actually endanger the world's existence. The gods aren't going to want to be destroyed by the Snarl, so they'll concede to the Dark One's demands.

The only matter at stake in that regard is then - how extensive will those demands be? If it's just rewriting the world so that goblins aren't XP fodder, then Redcloak succeeding would be a net plus. If it's the goblins ruling everyone, that's not so good, but that doesn't seem likely - for one thing, the hobgoblins like war, so they'd probably prefer to win on their own merits rather than just be handed an empire to rule. And the goblins may not want to push their luck in demanding too much.

On the whole I'd have to say that, at the very least, Redcloak's plan is a lot less dangerous to the world than what we formerly thought he and Xykon were going to due (harness the Snarl's power to rule the world). It's also less dangerous than destroying one of the two remaining gates, so if the heroes destroy another one to keep it from Redcloak it's safe to say that they're a greater threat to the world's survival than Redcloak is.

I severely doubt that the Dark One will be content with making goblins equal and ushering in a new era of peace and cooperation. Here's what we know of his tactics thus far: When he was mortal, he gathered a gigantic army and brought it with him to the doorstep of the human nations and started making demands. We can debate whether he was justified in doing so, since he thought the humans wouldn't take him seriously otherwise, but the fact is that this is exactly what Hitler did in the years leading up to WWII.

Now before you start shouting Godwin's Law at me, realize that here, the analogy applies. Hitler demanded more and more land, and other European nations repeatedly capitulated because they feared another world war.

So we have a ruthless military warlord who is, essentially, threatening war with the human nations if they don't give in to his demands. Rather than cave to his demands, they had him assassinated. Dishonorable tactics, to be sure, but worse than letting him have his way? I'm not so sure. After he was murdered, his disorganized, leaderless army was still strong enough that all the other nations had to band together to put it down.

This is the guy who's behind the Plan. Do we really think that all he wants is equality? That he'll forgive and forget the wrongs done to him and his people in the past, as long as they've got a fair shake going forward? That when he has the power to move the Snarl's gate at will and destroy a god without a fight, he'll only use this power for good? I have a really hard time with that. I also think Redcloak doesn't know the whole Plan any more than we do.

[sun_tzu]

Frankly, I imagine that handing the Dark One control over the god-killing weapon will almost certainly lead to dystopia. Sure, he'll start by renegotiating the status of the goblinoids...But, he's an evil guy with tons of power. I find it very unlikely that he won't start abusing it, and before you know it, the goblin empire has enslaved all the humans and elves.

[Mixt]

Goblins are nothing but savage animals and they deserve their cannon fodder status.

Elves are nothing but arrogant Complete Monsters and they all deserve to be killed in the most horribly painful manner possible.

Humans are all Xenophobic racists who think it's funny to commit genocide, thus they all deserve to be wiped out.

Dwarves are all drunken louts who speak gibberish and can never do anything right, they all deserve being tossed into an asylum.

[Particle_Man]

Well humans can't be that xenophobic, given all the half-humans spread around the books . . . :smallbiggrin:

[BaronOfHell]

I severely doubt that the Dark One will be content with making goblins equal and ushering in a new era of peace and cooperation.
That's not what she said, I believe. I understood her as TDO levelling the playing field, but the goblins enjoying war would want to squash every opposition themselves.


That when he has the power to [...] destroy a god without a fight

I find that very questionable. Imagine what would really happen, the dark one plane shifts a gate. Does the Snarl reach out? Break free? What happens exactly? I imagine TDO does not have that kind of control over how the snarl actually behaves and as such, I find it more plausible that the Snarl will break free and unmake reality itself. At this points, the gods won't be destroyed, they'll be forced to remake reality, if they would want a third try at it.

[Adanedhel]

but the fact is that this is exactly what Hitler did in the years leading up to WWII.


Yes, because the allies slaughtered civilian Germans for XP

because the Germans lived in completely unhospitabler areas

oh wait

[t209]

Well humans can't be that xenophobic, given all the half-humans spread around the books . . . :smallbiggrin:

Either through Ugly Backstory or other Ugly Backstory (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html).
We could learn about the story of Other Ugly Backstory in Backer PDFs about Therkla (Probably Azure City is racist town since there is no Half Orc soldiers in Battle of Azure City or Therkla don't want to be club swinging savages).

[BaronOfHell]

It's not analogous incorrect if you know the history behind, but it's not very applicable when reading the post the analogy was a respond to.

[Gitman00]

That's not what she said, I believe. I understood her as TDO levelling the playing field, but the goblins enjoying war would want to squash every opposition themselves.

Well, right. I was using hyperbole, but my point is that TDO won't be content with merely leveling the playing field, based upon his prior behavior and what we know of the Plan.


I find that very questionable. Imagine what would really happen, the dark one plane shifts a gate. Does the Snarl reach out? Break free? What happens exactly? I imagine TDO does not have that kind of control over how the snarl actually behaves and as such, I find it more plausible that the Snarl will break free and unmake reality itself. At this points, the gods won't be destroyed, they'll be forced to remake reality, if they would want a third try at it.

We don't know what would happen if the Snarl were released (and Blackwing's vision suggests that there's a lot more going on than any of us realize), but that doesn't matter. The gods just need to believe that the threat is real for TDO's plans to succeed. And there's no way he's going to be satisfied with mere equality, any more than Hitler was satisfied with Austria and the Sudetenland.

[Deepbluediver]

First and foremost, we're assuming that Redcloak manages to both sieze control of the gate, and keep Xykon from doing the same.

After that, I think it would depend on just how much of what we have learned is actually the Truth. So far, the only party we've heard the Dark One story from is Redcloak, a confirmed evil character. There's plenty of room for propoganda to color this version of events.

Plus, that would still rely on the Dark One actually telling his followers the truth. Pretending to be a race that was wronged from the start, and is therefor seeking justice instead of conquest, is a good way to get both the power-hungry and the self-righteous on your side.

Frankly, giving the goblin's god the power to essentially blackmail the rest of the pantheon doesn't really fix the imbalance of power; it just shifts it the other way. Plus, the picture that Redcloak paints is a very optomistic and rose-tinted. The humans, elves, and other civilized races have every advantage that RC wants for the goblins, and haven't achieved paradise yet, because reality does not work that way.

Basically, the situation for the goblins (and other monstrous humanoids) right now isn't good; I don't dispute that. However, I don't really see the overall situation improving that much very quickly. SOMEONE is going to end up shafted.
No matter what answer we give you, there are going to be a lot of assumptions involved. So tell me what assumptions you are making, and I'll tell you how I think it's going to play out.

[RNGgod]

As others have said, we need the disclaimer that for Redcloak to succeed, Xykon must NOT succeed. However implausible, we must put Xykon's evil plots out of the picture for this discussion.

Now, given that, it all depends on what we know. Is Redcloak telling the truth about his motives? I believe so; he knew nothing about the "Plan" until he put on the Crimson Mantle, and his behavior since implies that he is acting "honestly," in the sense that what we learn in Start of Darkness and in his recent conversations (most notably with Tsukiko) is what he actually believes.

From there we move on to whether the Dark One is honest in his dealings with Redcloak. If he is NOT, we can presume that Redcloak succeeding would be a very bad thing indeed. This is where it gets tricky, because everything we know about the Dark One comes from Redcloak (and maybe Jirix, a bit), who in turn learned the plan from the Dark One. So yes, we don't know.

Now, how likely is it that the Dark One is honest? People are correct to have their doubts about an Evil god, particularly one about whom we know very little. But let us examine this from a narrative perspective.

In favor of the Dark One either lying or at least keeping facts hidden
Simply put, it creates far more drama for the reader if everything we've learned is wrong. If Redcloak has the correct view of events, and has told the audience what he knows, then we also know what the Dark One's plan is. Unless it's a lie. I don't remember the name for it, but Elan himself (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html) argued that any stated plan cannot work as stated. If it works, it's no longer a plan: it's a spoiler. Thus it would be more dramatic for Redcloak to have been lied to.

This creates added drama if Redcloak survives his betrayal by the Dark One. By the end of Start of Darkness, Right-Eye felt that not only Redcloak but also the Dark One himself had abandoned the Goblin people to complete this grand plan. Redcloak might follow a similar path, growing bitter at the Dark One and helping...I dunno, helping someone, or maybe following his brother's example by helping Goblins on a more localized level, by leading villages and the like. In fact, I would wager that if Redcloak survives this comic, this image will be the last we see of him: a war-weary Goblin, perhaps aged (maybe he'll have removed the Crimson Mantle), helping his peers and their families.

That's one option.

In favor of the Dark One's honesty
Look, as Rich has made quite clear, one of the major themes of this comic is defying alignment. Miko was an early example- Lawful Good, but an antagonist, and also destructive. Start of Darkness took this one step further. Yes, Rich avoided making Xykon sympathetic, or even really human, but Redcloak? Very different. Perhaps you read the end of Start of Darkness and thought "I no longer have any sympathy for Redcloak." That's understandable. But what is undeniable is that Rich (ironically) humanized Redcloak. We understand why he does what he does, and why he is a villain. If the Dark One never had any intention of improving the lives of the Goblin people, then why introduce him as simply an "Evil" god? Why show Redcloak's pain, the loss of his family? In fact, everything we learn about Miko and the Sapphire Guild (okay, the Sapphire Guild of thirty-four years previously), can be construed as subverting the alignment system. If Rich pulls a dramatic twist on this one, then it's almost as if there was no point: the Goblin god was Evil, but also a jerk; the Sapphire Guild was right to massacre the Goblin village; Miko's reaction to Redcloak- "the bearer of the Crimson Mantle?!?"- and her immediate attempt to destroy him were justified. And these are things I do not accept, particularly the one I put in a spoiler box there. And based on Rich's posts about genocide and six-year-olds, I'd wager he does not accept that either.


So yeah, we don't know. Each option has advantages, and each has severe resulting problems. I eagerly await what Rich has planned for us.

[thereaper]

Gobbotopia is a slave-based economy.

Redcloak is an admitted speciesist.

The Dark One is a petty, spiteful god.

No, of course they don't want equality. They want things to be reversed. They want to be at the top and have the humanoids suffer the same injustices they have. That is their definition of "equality".

[Jay R]

Redcloak might follow a similar path, growing bitter at the Dark One and helping...

... Xykon, or he dies one round later.

[Oh, all right - Xykon has to believe that Redcloak is helping Xykon, or RC dies one round later.]

[KoboldRevenge]

Gobbotopia has already become a "haven" for those monstrous races- it's not that big a jump for them to be included- since it would be a bit of a turnaround for the goblins to start hunting them for XP after they've become citizens of Gobbotopia.

Though you'd think that they'd be hunting the good aligned fodder eh?

[RNGgod]

Gobbotopia is a slave-based economy.

Redcloak is an admitted speciesist.

The Dark One is a petty, spiteful god.

No, of course they don't want equality. They want things to be reversed. They want to be at the top and have the humanoids suffer the same injustices they have. That is their definition of "equality".

I'm not saying you're wrong, but...isn't that just so simplistic? Wouldn't that be...boring?

[Steward]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but...isn't that just so simplistic? Wouldn't that be...boring?

It's boring, but it makes sense. In order for the goblins to devise a truly egalitarian world, they would have to mature to a point where they are much nobler and kinder than any of the current dominant races. No, await, they would have to mature to a point where they are nobler and kinder than all of the gods. Anything less, and there will always be some inequities even if they aren't deliberately planned.

[RNGgod]

It's boring, but it makes sense. In order for the goblins to devise a truly egalitarian world, they would have to mature to a point where they are much nobler and kinder than any of the current dominant races. No, await, they would have to mature to a point where they are nobler and kinder than all of the gods. Anything less, and there will always be some inequities even if they aren't deliberately planned.

I can see that, although I'd point out that what Redcloak says in SoD implies less that the goblins design this world, and more that the gods are pressured into doing it for them.

Also, it's not that the gods CAN'T design an egalitarian world, it's that they deliberately chose not to in order to give their worshippers experience points.

[hamishspence]

made of win

I am impressed with the analysis of the two possibilities. And agree- a case can be made for either.

Maybe draw from both- some of the Dark One's story is 100% true, some isn't- same with Redcloak's stated goals.

[RNGgod]

I am impressed with the analysis of the two possibilities. And agree- a case can be made for either.

Maybe draw from both- some of the Dark One's story is 100% true, some isn't- same with Redcloak's stated goals.

Yeah, in the time since I posted that, I've been wondering about a possible compromise outcome. Redcloak is the well-intentioned extremist to, say the other goblins; he's willing to sacrifice his family and friends for the Plan.

Maybe the Dark One is the well-intentioned extremist to Redcloak; his plan really is for the benefit of all goblins, but has some hidden part we don't know about, like the two casters of the ritual must die for it to work. I dunno.

[Winter Light]

A lot[i] of posters (not all) are falling into the trap of deciding that one group needs to be "right," and another needs to be "wrong."

The gods were "wrong" for creating sentient races as XP fodder, their created species were "wrong" for accepting that as the way the world worked, the Dark One is "wrong" for being willing to kill millions or billions (however large the population of OOTS-land is) to fix these injustices, and Redcloak is "wrong" for going along with the Plan.
(Disclaimer: Assuming goblins really were created as XP fodder, etc., etc.)

Were some of them [i]justified? Sure. Sometimes there is no "right answer." It is doubtful that TDO could just go up to the gods and ask nicely for goblins to be granted equal standing with the other sapient races--possible, I suppose, but not plausible.

Every group is pursuing its own self-interest at the expense of someone else. It's certainly natural, but let's not pretend it's okay just because goblins have green skin or "humans started it."

[LadyEowyn]

Gobbotopia is a slave-based economy.

Redcloak is an admitted speciesist.

The Dark One is a petty, spiteful god.

I'm not expecting utopia, but none of the things you've listed guarantee that the world would be made a substantially more awful place by Redcloak succeeding. There are human nations that practice slavery as well (the Empire of Blood, for one).

My view is that, while Redcloak gaining control of the gate would not be a wonderful thing, it would be better than destroying one of the last two gates (which could potentially lead to the Snarl being unleashed on the world). The Order of the Stick don't know what we know about the Plan (and might not agree with me even if they did know). This creates some interesting dramatic tension about what the right course of action is if Redcloak gets close to capturing Girard's gate.

[Particle_Man]

On the other hand, the Order of the Scribble closed the holes up in their day. I suppose if the gates all went down the Order of the Stick could do the same thing.

[thereaper]

I'm not expecting utopia, but none of the things you've listed guarantee that the world would be made a substantially more awful place by Redcloak succeeding. There are human nations that practice slavery as well (the Empire of Blood, for one).

My view is that, while Redcloak gaining control of the gate would not be a wonderful thing, it would be better than destroying one of the last two gates (which could potentially lead to the Snarl being unleashed on the world). The Order of the Stick don't know what we know about the Plan (and might not agree with me even if they did know). This creates some interesting dramatic tension about what the right course of action is if Redcloak gets close to capturing Girard's gate.

Make no mistake, humanoids are easily capable of the same evil as the goblinoids. But Goblinoid society, as a whole (mainly due to their unfair lot in life), is evil. The goal of goblin equality is a noble one (and I for one hope it succeeds). But The Plan will not result in goblin equality, because the people in charge of it have no interest in such a thing. Redcloak never once tries to get the humans to treat him the way they would treat themselves. He treats them the way they treat him. Every other goblin even marginally involved in The Plan or Gobbotopia behaves the same way. The subtext is plain to see. Actions speak louder than words. And perhaps the most tragic part is: this is very true of the real world. All too often, the oppressed will become the oppressors given the opportunity.

The true path to Goblin Equality can only be paved by mutual peace and understanding, not by holding a gun to someone's head.

[Dr.Epic]

Red Cloak is insane and unforgiving and the Dark One isn't any better. Go Team Anti-Human (and possibly other races).

[Jay R]

As others have said, we need the disclaimer that for Redcloak to succeed, Xykon must NOT succeed. However implausible, we must put Xykon's evil plots out of the picture for this discussion.

It's not implausible at all. The secret that Redcloak is hiding from Xykon is that there is no way for Xykon to succeed here. The ritual does not give control of the gate to the casters; it gives it to the Dark One.

There are serious dangers for Redcloak when Xykon learns that he cannot use the gate to gain power, but that's not because Xykon might win. It's because of Xykon's wrath when he learns he's spent 30 years on a plot that cannot help him in any way.

[cloudland]

It's not implausible at all. The secret that Redcloak is hiding from Xykon is that there is no way for Xykon to succeed here. The ritual does not give control of the gate to the casters; it gives it to the Dark One.

There are serious dangers for Redcloak when Xykon learns that he cannot use the gate to gain power, but that's not because Xykon might win. It's because of Xykon's wrath when he learns he's spent 30 years on a plot that cannot help him in any way.

It can help Xykon. Remember Redcloak mentioned that the divine part of the ritual is needed so that control will go to the Dark One instead of Xykon or Redcloak. This means that, if Xykon is more magic-literate, he could have determined how to alter the ritual so that the part about giving control to the Dark One is gone, and that basically left between him and Redcloak.

[Steward]

I can see that, although I'd point out that what Redcloak says in SoD implies less that the goblins design this world, and more that the gods are pressured into doing it for them.

That's a great point. I did kind of assume that the goblins (well, not all of them, but the Dark One and possibly his High Priest) would be dictating the rules to a certain extent.



Also, it's not that the gods CAN'T design an egalitarian world, it's that they deliberately chose not to in order to give their worshippers experience points.

Yeah, that's what I meant. That is neither noble nor kind, and in order for the goblins to design a world better than them they have to deliberately make the concerted effort to do something that no one else can. Petty revenge might be too overwhelmingly tempting for them to resist, especially since goblins are not driven towards good.


This means that, if Xykon is more magic-literate, he could have determined how to alter the ritual so that the part about giving control to the Dark One is gone, and that basically left between him and Redcloak.

He could, that's true, but apparently he hasn't. Xykon is amusingly a victim of his own callous cruelty. If he was a better leader and administrator, he probably would have found out Redcloak's plot from one of the vast network of magical researchers in his employ. Instead, he chose to delegate the role of chief administrator to Redcloak, retaining only one lackey who is loyal directly to him rather than Redcloak. He then chose to mistreat and neglect her to the point where she doesn't even bother to report important findings to him first, and when she was murdered under bewildering circumstances he made no effort to find out why it happened or scrutinize Redcloak's explanation for the event.

If Xykon gets blindsided by Redcloak's plan, it will be on his own skull.

[irenicObserver]

Frankly, I imagine that handing the Dark One control over the god-killing weapon will almost certainly lead to dystopia. Sure, he'll start by renegotiating the status of the goblinoids...But, he's an evil guy with tons of power. I find it very unlikely that he won't start abusing it, and before you know it, the goblin empire has enslaved all the humans and elves.

See now i'm imagining as a mortal given god-like power, even if he wasn't corrupted before the Dark One will certainly be now. We all know history vindicates the fallen, especially one with such messianic overtones. It is likely that if he does succeed, then he will prove the gods right, Goblinoids' nature has no other definition but Evil.

[Jasdoif]

Suppose Redcloak succeeds in completing the ritual, and the Dark One gains the ability to shift a gate around to dump the Snarl on whatever god's plane he sees fit. And the other gods agree to the Dark One's demands under threat of Snarl assassination (Snarlassin?).

The Dark One would still have the ability to shift the gate around to dump the Snarl on whichever plane he sees fit. He would be capable of making demands endlessly, since his bargaining chip is undiminished when his demands are met.

If any of the gods are unwilling to see if the Dark One's reasonableness continues indefinitely, their alternative would be to destroy the gate before the Dark One could move it (undoing the ritual would probably require an equally time-intensive counter-ritual...and the Dark One would be able to move the gate prior to its completion). Which would loose the Snarl on the world, and then we're on the way to World 3.0...or nothing happens, and the Dark One has nothing to show for everything except some very angry deities.


It doesn't seem like a winning scenario.

[TheZenMaster]

Here is a problem:

Its a fauna shift thing:

Goblins are designed with survivability in mind.

So they reproduce quickly.

You see where im going with this?

Goblins where made to be killed off quickly but in return they reproduced much so that they didn't die out.

Now lets remove those limits.

They would simply run out of room and warfare (With superior numbers and a war hungry race) would be the logical conclusion.

I also doubt that goblins would allow themselves to be biologically altered.

[Jay R]

I also doubt that goblins would allow themselves to be biologically altered.

VBery good point about ecological balance. But I have one quibble.

"...allow themselves..."? We're talking about what the collected gods might do. Did you choose to "allow yourself" to lose tree-swinging skills?

[TheZenMaster]

I meant the Dark one wouldn't allow for Goblinoid alteration.

If he did then thats OK. Im just saying that would likely require re-doing of goblins anyway.

[Feathersnow]

Two things- the fact that Gobbotopia put POW's to work does not, in and of itself, mean that they are, and intend to remain, "a slave-based economy." Cheap labor is already their number one resource, after all.

Second- Xykon, as far as we, or RC, knows, has no winning move here. But- on the other hand, he is almost certainly less stupid than he leads others to believe (an epic sorcerer must have a Charisma score of 22+ before items, especially if they weren't putting anything into constitution, and bluff is an in-class skill), this is the point- to cast epic spells, one needs ranks in Spellcraft and Arcana, which probably help determine what the spell you are casting ACTUALLY DOES

[WhamBamSam]

Here is a problem:

Its a fauna shift thing:

Goblins are designed with survivability in mind.

So they reproduce quickly.

You see where im going with this?

Goblins where made to be killed off quickly but in return they reproduced much so that they didn't die out.

Now lets remove those limits.

They would simply run out of room and warfare (With superior numbers and a war hungry race) would be the logical conclusion.

I also doubt that goblins would allow themselves to be biologically altered.People are equipped to have many, many more children than they typically do in the real life developed world. The same reduced rate of reproduction would apply to a Goblin society that suddenly saw a sharp increase in life expectancy. Spells exist to travel vast distances instantly, stop time, and cure almost any disease. Wizards have successfully created Bear/Owl hybrids for basically no reason. If birth control magic doesn't already exist (Elan and Haley have been going at it like rabbits for how long now?) someone will figure it out.

[JSSheridan]

If birth control magic doesn't already exist (Elan and Haley have been going at it like rabbits for how long now?) someone will figure it out.

Roy is an accident with one such botched spell by Eugene. I wonder if that's on Elan's spell list.

And I hope there's not a Haley's pregnant mini-arc. Knowing Roy's luck though, it will come on top of a bunch of other things.

:roy:

"We're at the end of the book and what do we have to show for it.

Girard's Gate was destroyed.

Xykon's ahead of us on his way to Kraagor's Gate

Belkar's dead for good.

Durkon's also dead, and we need to bring him back.

Vaarsuvius has been revealed to be the killer of the Draketooth clan and is useless from the PTSD.

We've made Elan's father and his allies into enemies.

Nale escaped and is after us again too.

And finally, the party's rogue has been knocked up by our bard.

I give up."

[TheZenMaster]

Thing is: Their biologically MADE to do that.

[WhamBamSam]

Thing is: Their biologically MADE to do that.And humans aren't?:smallconfused:

[TheZenMaster]

And humans aren't?:smallconfused:

We are, but our biological clock doesn't ring as often as goblinoid clocks do if you know what I mean.:smallwink:

[D.KnightSpider]

One thing that we might want to consider is, assuming that 'The Plan' succeeds according to its present information and design, is the actual aftermath of the plan's details.

Details such as this: what happens to the gate? I sincerely doubt that the Dark One would be so kind as to return it to its previous resting place once he and Redcloak have goblin equality. If it stays put, then that would radically alter the balance of power in the Dark One's favor. If the Dark One retained the gate's control and location, then he would have the effective final say over everything that transpires in the OoTS universe. If any of the pantheons irked the Dark One, then they could very well become Snarl-bits.

That wouldn't be equality, that would be the goblins calling all of the shots. Given how the goblins react to having power with Goblitoppia, and scaling that up in terms of power that they would have, I can't say that I see the OoTS universe being made better by having the goblins in charge.

Granted, all of the above can be quite easily toppled if the gate doesn't stay put or there's an escape clause of some kind (maybe something revealed in SoD?). But as I understand it right now... this is the end result of the Dark One's plan and one of the more present dangers of such a plan.

[LadyEowyn]

If the Dark One retained the gate's control and location, then he would have the effective final say over everything that transpires in the OoTS universe. If any of the pantheons irked the Dark One, then they could very well become Snarl-bits.

I don't think that's how the ritual works. He doesn't get full control over the Snarl; he's only able to move it and unleash it. So he has the option of "release the Snarl, destroying the world" and the option of "refrain from releasing the Snarl in return for concessions", but not really anything in between.

[LibrarianHuntar]

Well humans can't be that xenophobic, given all the half-humans spread around the books . . . :smallbiggrin:

Curbstomp primitive tribe for wizards ugly son/daughter, cast dominate person on most attractive surviver, etc.

[t209]

Do you wonder if V's death prediction have to do with Shell Shock ("Death" of his mind and sanity) from Belkar's death?

[Math_Mage]

Monster rape is at least as legitimate an explanation for the quantity of half-humans running around as the idea of all half-breeds being the product of wizards with unattractive children deciding to find mates for them among another creature type. I simply don't understand that reasoning.


Do you wonder if V's death prediction have to do with Shell Shock ("Death" of his mind and sanity) from Belkar's death?

I'm curious as to how you connect this post to, well, anything else in this thread. :smallconfused:

[faustin]

Gobbotopia is, in the very world of the leader, the very example of a sucessfull goblin society. Ask the humans if they are happy on it.
Redcloak and goblins in general haven´t any problem with inequality, as long they are in the top.

And the Plan was messed from the beggining. It doesn´t matter what RC says to himself, any plan involving to use an eldritch abomination to archieve your goals cannot ends well.

[dps]

Jirix, who claims he's repeating the words of the Dark One, characterizes Gobbotopia's relationship with the surrounding powers as adversarial rather than fraternal. Diplomacy and trade, for him, are not means of living together, but war by other means.

So? "Diplomacy is war by other means."

[The_Weirdo]

Gobbotopia is a slave-based economy.

Redcloak is an admitted speciesist.

The Dark One is a petty, spiteful god.

No, of course they don't want equality. They want things to be reversed. They want to be at the top and have the humanoids suffer the same injustices they have. That is their definition of "equality".

In their place, wouldn't you? Heck, wouldn't nearly anyone?

[Biggoron]

In their place, wouldn't you? Heck, wouldn't nearly anyone?

Yeah, sure but thats not the point he is making (not that I agree with it).

Just because they are justified in thier additudes does not mean that it isn't thier additudes.

[cloudland]

He could, that's true, but apparently he hasn't. Xykon is amusingly a victim of his own callous cruelty. If he was a better leader and administrator, he probably would have found out Redcloak's plot from one of the vast network of magical researchers in his employ. Instead, he chose to delegate the role of chief administrator to Redcloak, retaining only one lackey who is loyal directly to him rather than Redcloak. He then chose to mistreat and neglect her to the point where she doesn't even bother to report important findings to him first, and when she was murdered under bewildering circumstances he made no effort to find out why it happened or scrutinize Redcloak's explanation for the event.

If Xykon gets blindsided by Redcloak's plan, it will be on his own skull.

Xykon managed to figure out and master the magic that use Dorukan's headband as the focus. I'm pretty sure he's not as magic-illiterate as he let out, at least not in the side of arcane magic. I think he actually do know something is wrong with the ritual, and the main problem is that he lack the knowledge of divine spell to pinpoint it out precisely, so he just play along while secretly recruit Tsukiko for the task. Beside, even Tsukiko can't figure out what exactly what was wrong since the other half were missing, so it's not like it's within Xykon's ability to realize what the ritual do.
And as for his relationship with Tsukiko, it has to be expected: you need to think from Xykon's point of view. Imagine one day an animated corpse want to sleep with you, I'm sure you will go "ewwww". So is Xykon, who's also disgusted by Tsukiko's libido.

[zimmerwald1915]

So? "Diplomacy is war by other means."
Just because Karl von Clauswitz said something doesn't make the attitude held by Jirix toward other powers non-evil. The philosophy that other powers exist to be taken advantage of and then tossed aside is an evil. Heck, it's basically a rephrasing of the PHB's definition of evil, with "powers" replacing individual "people".

[Man on Fire]

would it really be so bad if redcloak succeeded?


Not at all. ALL HAIL FREE GOBLIN NATION! ALL HAIL REDCLOAK!

[zimmerwald1915]

{{scrubbed}}

[Cybertoy00]

I just have to say this. It might have already been said in a more eloquent manner, but here we go.

The reason goblins have it rough, according to Redcloak, is that all of the other non-monster races think goblins are inherently evil, destructive monsters or only good for XP.

The Plan to fix this is to gain control of a god-killing abomination, causing lots of colateral damage in the process, and use it as a gun to hold against the heads of the deities that made the world and have them give the goblins access to better resources.

The real question is, will that make everyone stop thinking goblins are evil, destructive monsters, only good for XP? Can gods change the minds of mortals directly?

On another note, mainly the title of the thread, 'if Redcloak suceeded' is irrelevent at this point. Thanks to the battles for posession of the gates, three rifts to a god-killing abomination are now open, an evil sorcerer is so powerful that nothing short of a deus ex machina can stop him, an entire civilization has been destroyed, and one of the aforementioned rifts is now big enough to swallow the people living in what's left of the destroyed civilization. And since no one has shown an interest in rebuilding said gates, anything that might be gained from a victory could be fleeting.

I'm reminded of that ReBoot episode where, even though they got rid of MegaByte, Mainframe was too damaged for it to matter.

[RNGgod]

I just have to say this. It might have already been said in a more eloquent manner, but here we go.

The reason goblins have it rough, according to Redcloak, is that all of the other non-monster races think goblins are inherently evil, destructive monsters or only good for XP.



The problem is, that isn't true.

The goblins have it rough because, as a result of the non-monster races thinking goblins are inherently evil, etc., the gods deliberately set up the world to screw goblins over.

Yeah, beliefs are tricky. But Redcloak's problem is that goblins are essentially forced to huddle in huts in hills with soil which is not fertile for anything, not even dirt farming, or in swamps.

[TheZenMaster]

Actually thats the controversy:

Is it true, or is it propaganda from The Dark one?

Left Eyes village was doing pretty swell, and it wasn't attacking any human settlements.

Are Goblins inherently evil? Are the Gods *******s? Or are goblins just refusing to accept killing each other?

[thereaper]

In their place, wouldn't you? Heck, wouldn't nearly anyone?

Honestly? Yes, I most likely would.

That has no bearing on whether or not it is right or a good thing for the world (the former is something I will not touch, and the latter is a resounding "no, it is not good for the world").