[PF]Dedicated Melee: Barbarian or Ranger? or something else....

[ranger557]

Hey all, I posted about my character in a game I am recently playing in. Right now I am a Barbarian and it has been fun. I went Invulnerable Rager with pretty good rage powers, beast totem and so forth. However, I am the dedicated melee, but I feel he is too typical and slightly boring.

So do you guys think a Barbarian should be a good dedicated melee in the higher levels or could I go and change in to be a Ranger and use that class to become the dedicated melee? Or is there another class better for the role?

If I go Ranger, I was thinking of going switch hitter based off of Treantsmonks guide and maybe go Beastmaster archetype to help my animal companion become much stronger in battle to help me. Right now we are level 7 and only Pathfinder material is allowed.

What do you guys think?

[MukkTB]

Inquisitor or Magus, will be less boring without being too 'overpowered.' If tome of battle was allowed I'd point at that.

[Curious]

Hey all, I posted about my character in a game I am recently playing in. Right now I am a Barbarian and it has been fun. I went Invulnerable Rager with pretty good rage powers, beast totem and so forth. However, I am the dedicated melee, but I feel he is too typical and slightly boring.

So do you guys think a Barbarian should be a good dedicated melee in the higher levels or could I go and change in to be a Ranger and use that class to become the dedicated melee? Or is there another class better for the role?

If I go Ranger, I was thinking of going switch hitter based off of Treantsmonks guide and maybe go Beastmaster archetype to help my animal companion become much stronger in battle to help me. Right now we are level 7 and only Pathfinder material is allowed.

What do you guys think?

Wild Stalker Ranger gives you the best of both worlds. You lose animal companion, favored enemy, and one combat feat, but gain rage, 8 rage powers, uncanny dodge, and some sensory bonuses.

[Keneth]

Personally I've never really seen ranger as a dedicated melee type. Wild Stalker could work but it basically plays the same way as a barbarian except you get to cast a spell or two along the way (but you can't cast while raging anyway). Beastmaster is useless the way I see it, you don't want many weak companions, you want one good one, and you can have one at full strength by taking the Boon Companion feat (you should be able to qualify). Ranger is basically a utility character, not a dedicated melee, if you've read Treantmonk's guide, you know that the best rangers are switch hitters with a good spell selection. To be honest, a druid wildshaper that invested heavily into physical stats would probably be more effective (or just as) than a ranger at being a melee type and would get better spells (unless you completely dumped Wis).

A magus can dish out a lot of damage in melee in exchange for being slightly more squishy than the average fighter (offset by a cool selection of defensive spells), so that would get my vote as well. Inquisitor can take a similar role as mentioned above but he's better off at being a strong support character.

Alternatively, if you're up against a lot of evil stuff and can get some decent stats (point buy 15 won't do, but 20+ might), you should strongly consider paladin. It can be a nightmare to roleplay though, especially if your GM is a prick.

[Blyte]

What is your party make up? If you are the "meat shield" then a barbarian would make a great melee. You don't mitigate damage too well, but you sure can dish it out and end the fights sooner than your HPs run out.. that's my idea of barbarian damage control, "paste them before they can drop me"

If you want to be a "tank type" a ranger (sword and shield style) can do it well. There is also a good Cavalier archetype or two for this, and a few good fighter archetypes for this.

I am a fan of the barbarian myself, but other than the DR, they don't mitigate damage well. They simply have a ton of HPs bolstered by CON rage gain and DR helping to stretch it out.

In short if you want to be offensive and in the front then stick with barb, if you want to be defensive or both in the front, then change to something else. I just find that Barbs have the best offensive ability.

edit: you can make a nearly unkillable barbarian if you pick the right feats and rage powers, and especially if you have the ability to rage cycle and take the level 10 rage power "flesh wound".

[ranger557]

What is your party make up? If you are the "meat shield" then a barbarian would make a great melee. You don't mitigate damage too well, but you sure can dish it out and end the fights sooner than your HPs run out.. that's my idea of barbarian damage control, "paste them before they can drop me"

If you want to be a "tank type" a ranger (sword and shield style) can do it well. There is also a good Cavalier archetype or two for this, and a few good fighter archetypes for this.

I am a fan of the barbarian myself, but other than the DR, they don't mitigate damage well. They simply have a ton of HPs bolstered by CON rage gain and DR helping to stretch it out.

In short if you want to be offensive and in the front then stick with barb, if you want to be defensive or both in the front, then change to something else. I just find that Barbs have the best offensive ability.

edit: you can make a nearly unkillable barbarian if you pick the right feats and rage powers, and especially if you have the ability to rage cycle and take the level 10 rage power "flesh wound".

Well our group make up is consist of: a elf paladin, a half-elf rogue/magus, a elf wizard, a dwarf cleric, a halfling bard, and a human barbarian(ME).

So I don't want to go Magus or Paladin and step on anybody's shoes because we have those classes already in our party. I went barbarian because they need a melee tank character and I made the character to that direction with the rage powers and feats. Rager powers I have are: Lesser beast totem, guarded life, and beast totem, and later I will get clear mind, greater beast totem, flesh wound, and come and get me. For feats, I got Improved Intiative, power attack, step up, iron will, raging vitality, and will later get combat reflexes and maybe toughness not sure yet.

So I am trying to build him with defensive abilities since he has good offense abilities already. But I feel that this character will feel quite boring in the future levels with all these spellcasters around him and treating him like he only knows how to fight and thats it, but he is more than that I think.

[Blyte]

Seems like you are trying to be a team player.

I would suggest going with a Cavalier Order of the Dragon + Honor Guard. They are tanky and help party members a ton.

Your "aid another" actions become very potent with this combo.

At level 8 you get "strategy" which is an amazing power, especially with a party your size. I envy you, my group is usually only 2-3 PCs, and it would be a waste playing this class for me :(

take the feat chain that gets you aid another as a swift action, and stay next to a striker in the group to support their actions and body guard them. you get this as a bonus feat. You should also take the "saving shield" feat which gives you another +2 ac bonus you can give adjacent party members.

the honor guard gives a +1 AC bonus to allies it aids, and the order of the dragon will get ya a 2-3, and saving shield 2 more. So in all you can bump a party member another ~7-8 AC when someone swings at them while they are next to you.

You could take the teamwork feat "gang up" that let's you count as flanking if you and another adjacent ally are next to a monster and share it with the rogue, with that tactician class ability.

also, if you can qualify for pathfinder chronicler at some point it might be worth dipping because they get an additional +2 to aid another at some point..

also also, if you were to go with a halfling I think there is a trait that gives them a bonus to aid another, for even more sick stacking..

Edit: actually the trait is "helpful" and it's available to all as far as I can tell. It gives you a base 4 to aid another instead of a 2.

[ranger557]

Seems like you are trying to be a team player.

I would suggest going with a Cavalier Order of the Dragon + Honor Guard. They are tanky and help party members a ton.

Your "aid another" actions become very potent with this combo.

At level 8 you get "strategy" which is an amazing power, especially with a party your size. I envy you, my group is usually only 2-3 PCs, and it would be a waste playing this class for me :(

take the feat chain that gets you aid another as a swift action, and stay next to a striker in the group to support their actions and body guard them. you get this as a bonus feat. You should also take the "saving shield" feat which gives you another +2 ac bonus you can give adjacent party members.

the honor guard gives a +1 AC bonus to allies it aids, and the order of the dragon will get ya a 2-3, and saving shield 2 more. So in all you can bump a party member another ~7-8 AC when someone swings at them while they are next to you.

You could take the teamwork feat "gang up" that let's you count as flanking if you and another adjacent ally are next to a monster and share it with the rogue, with that tactician class ability.

also, if you can qualify for pathfinder chronicler at some point it might be worth dipping because they get an additional +2 to aid another at some point..

also also, if you were to go with a halfling I think there is a trait that gives them a bonus to aid another, for even more sick stacking..

Edit: actually the trait is "helpful" and it's available to all as far as I can tell. It gives you a base 4 to aid another instead of a 2.

Thats an interesting build option and character, but I don't really know anything about that class, except what I read right now about the order and the abilities the Cavalier gets. However, I really don't like the feel of that type of class even though it would be tanky. Thank you for the suggestion, I might consider it.

However, I was really debating between my barbarian and going ranger. I think the ranger would give me more versatility and the animal companion could be a good tank flanker right?? Or is the switch hitter ranger not really that beneficial compared to staying as my barbarian character. My barbarian has high hps, DR, and rage powers going for him but thats it. Well maybe he has some skills like survival, but besides that what else could he do to be a tank and be useful all around, you know?

[Theodoxus]

At level 7, I don't think it's worth 'changing careers' to be more interesting. Instead, maybe a dip into an interesting class, depending on your stats. If you dumped mental stats, there's not much hope outside of probably Rogue, to pick up a few skills that could make your character a bit better out of combat.

Of course, you could still pick up something like Linguistics even as a barbarian and grab an esoteric language, like one of the plants... talk to trees or algae or something. - lol

My personal opinion, Rogue meshes really well with Barbarian. It's a HP and BAB hit, but the synergy - especially if you're playing offtank (ie flanking) with the paladin is very nice - extra damage is always excellent. If you grab a couple levels, you'll have evasion - very nice for a primarily Fort based build (the boost to Ref saves from Rogue definitely help too). Don't need to go too deep - probably 4 levels; grab extra feats with Rogue talents and open up your options a ton.

Ranger and Barbarian are pretty similar chassis; I have a feeling that going that route won't differentiate you enough to make you feel worth it.

[ranger557]

No I am not adding the class to my current class. I am thinking about changing my classes completely and seeing if the Ranger will be more useful and still a primary melee character for the group compared to my main guy, the Barbarian.

[Blyte]

Your group has all the bases covered and already has a good 5th wheel slot with the bard... you can play ANYTHING you want to play. If you are looking to tank and have your heart set on ranger or barb, then a sword and shield style ranger is probably your best bet.

If you want to be a DPS striker style character then the barbarian wins IMO.

I am playin a burst DPS barbarian 6Barb,1Mnk(martial artist),1Ftr(brawler) at the moment:

basically I charge with rhino hide armor and try to overrun as many as I can.. but I'm happy with just overrunning one big target with the charge because I avg in the triple digits with no crits. Other targets get hit for less but all of them get knocked prone with my overrun if I am successful.

1 Brb1
feat Pow Attk
feat Cmb Ref

2 Brb2
rage Strength Surge

3 Brb3
feat Improved Overrun

4 Brb4
rage Overbearing Advance

5 Brb5
feat Raging Deathblow

6 Brb6
rage Overbearing Onslaught

7 Mnk1 (martial artist)
feat Greater Overrun
feat Vicious Stomp**

8 Ftr1 (brawler)
feat Spiked Destroyer

**the bonus monk feat isn't on the list but we house ruled that monks get all combat feats for bonus feats if they can qualify for them (they can alternatively choose from the list if they wouldn't otherwise qualify for the feat) but it could be legal otherwise by just shuffling some feats around. Like taking combat reflexes at 7 for the bonus monk feat and spiked destroyer at 1st and vicious stomp at 8th.

[ranger557]

Your group has all the bases covered and already has a good 5th wheel slot with the bard... you can play ANYTHING you want to play. If you are looking to tank and have your heart set on ranger or barb, then a sword and shield style ranger is probably your best bet.

If you want to be a DPS striker style character then the barbarian wins IMO.

I am playin a burst DPS barbarian 6Barb,1Mnk(martial artist),1Ftr(brawler) at the moment:

basically I charge with rhino hide armor and try to overrun as many as I can.. but I'm happy with just overrunning one big target with the charge because I avg in the triple digits with no crits. Other targets get hit for less but all of them get knocked prone with my overrun if I am successful.

1 Brb1
feat Pow Attk
feat Cmb Ref

2 Brb2
rage Strength Surge

3 Brb3
feat Improved Overrun

4 Brb4
rage Overbearing Advance

5 Brb5
feat Raging Deathblow

6 Brb6
rage Overbearing Onslaught

7 Mnk1 (martial artist)
feat Greater Overrun
feat Vicious Stomp**

8 Ftr1 (brawler)
feat Spiked Destroyer

**the bonus monk feat isn't on the list but we house ruled that monks get all combat feats for bonus feats if they can qualify for them (they can alternatively choose from the list if they wouldn't otherwise qualify for the feat) but it could be legal otherwise by just shuffling some feats around. Like taking combat reflexes at 7 for the bonus monk feat and spiked destroyer at 1st and vicious stomp at 8th.

I have been thinking long and hard. I might just stay with Barbarian because of the fact that I can be a pretty good melee character for my team with that class.

I mean Ranger would be awesome, but I would have to focus on different tactics for him even though the options would be a little more. So thanks for the suggestions again and I like your barbarian builds, It looks fun! :smallbiggrin:

[Person_Man]

How about Psychic Warrior? It's Tier 3, melee focused, but still has plenty of tricks to play with.

[ranger557]

How about Psychic Warrior? It's Tier 3, melee focused, but still has plenty of tricks to play with.

Hmmm thats an interesting option sir, but in this group i dont think they know about the psionics book that the third party made nor am I sure if they allow psionics. Thanks for the suggestion though Person_Man :smallbiggrin:.

I have a question, what class do you like to play if you had to go melee?

[deuxhero]

Depending on what you have to work with...

a small (so you aren't boned in dungeons) Order of the Blue Rose Cavalier 4/Fighter 16 wielding a lance with Horse Master, Enforcer, power attack and the Mounted Combat tree deals serious damage on a charge.

If the DM does allow Psionic material, make your lance collision, as 4 damage will be tripled on a charge. You can also give your mount Psionic feats for some interesting results. Changing the build to Cavalier 4/Fighter 1/Warmind 10/Fighter 5 gives some interesting abilities (There is a 2nd level power that gives you pounce, an insane boost to damage output, and the 5th level war mind ability lets you hit an adjacent enemy with every hit you make).

Don't worry about violating the (rather annoying for an adventurer) ethics of the order, you only lose the OotBR's challenge ability (standard action for +2 moral bonus to damage) and you get it back 24 hours latter anyways.

[Person_Man]

I have a question, what class do you like to play if you had to go melee?

I'm partial to the Incarnate, Totemist, Binder, and own homebrew. (My most polished work is probably the Magitech Templar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176276), and I've been testing out a Batman inspired Detective class for the last few months).

Within a Pathfinder only context, I would probably just go with a Druid. They took a nerf bat to it when they re-wrote it, but all day Wildshape/Beastshape/etc options still provides you with a wide variety of fun and useful options which are otherwise hard to accumulate in Pathfinder without magic; Pounce, Grab, Scent, Fly, Trip, Burrow, Poison, Web, etc. You get your animal companion as backup or as a mount (and Spirited Charge is probably one of the last sources of decent damage in Pathfinder), and your spells to heal or buff or whatever as needed.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I have a question, what class do you like to play if you had to go melee?

Lunar, Solar, or Infernal.

Wait, that's Exalted. This is D&D...

Lunar, Solar, or Infernal. Everything else is not epic enough.

[ranger557]

I'm partial to the Incarnate, Totemist, Binder, and own homebrew. (My most polished work is probably the Magitech Templar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176276), and I've been testing out a Batman inspired Detective class for the last few months).

Within a Pathfinder only context, I would probably just go with a Druid. They took a nerf bat to it when they re-wrote it, but all day Wildshape/Beastshape/etc options still provides you with a wide variety of fun and useful options which are otherwise hard to accumulate in Pathfinder without magic; Pounce, Grab, Scent, Fly, Trip, Burrow, Poison, Web, etc. You get your animal companion as backup or as a mount (and Spirited Charge is probably one of the last sources of decent damage in Pathfinder), and your spells to heal or buff or whatever as needed.

Hmm I never actually played any Incarnate classes but I can imagine they are pretty fun and have good options. Thanks for the answer :) and also for the Druid choice for the Pathfinder route that sounds pretty good. I definitely agree even with the nerfs, they have spells, an animal companion, and can still kick some ass with their wildshapes. So from thinking about my melee character I think I will stay Barbarian because of its raw damage potential from pathfinder and its new abilities as well to help supplement that.

However, I do think I need help reworking him a little. He is meant to be the main melee character of the group. So here is what I have been playing the past levels. If I need to start a new thread, I can do that.

Level 7 Human Barbarian(Invul. Rager) DR:3/-
HP: 79 AC: 20 Ini: +7 Traits: Charming, Veteran of Gorum

Str: 21 (+1 level, +2 from belt)
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Cha: 7

Feats: Power Attack, Iron Will, Raging Vitality, Improved Initiative(free), Step up, and (Open Slot)

Rage Powers: Lesser Beast Totem, Guarded Life, and Beast Totem.

For future rage powers I was thinking of getting these to help supplement my frontliner approach: Clear Mind, Greater Beast Totem, Flesh Wound, Come and Get Me

For feats for the future I was thinking these: Toughness, Combat Reflexes, Dazing Assault

If I wanted to go the intimdation route, how would I approach it. I would need to make room for those feats and sadly one is weapon focus for a prereq and then I would have to make room for the rage powers that benefit from that as well. Can you combine Dazzling Display with Intimadating Glare? Thanks for any advice, because I'm not sure how to make room for these ideas in an optimal way.