E6 Swordsage

[MukkTB]

It seems that 4 levels of swordsage makes sense. With 2 levels of something else that will leave an initiator level of 5. Assuming a Dex based Swordsage what should those 2 levels be?

[Joshinthemosh]

I'm a big fan of Ranger dips, especially with Swordsage. A free combat style feat(hello Two Weapon Fighting), good fort save, 6+Int skills all good things

[Rhaegar14]

I would go with Rogue 1 and Sneak Attack Fighter 1. Add in Assassin's Stance with Martial Stance at 6th level. You now have 4d6 sneak attack damage on top of all the other Swordsage goodies.

Edit: Actually, Spellthief may be a better pick than Sneak Attack Fighter, but it's the same general principle.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Dip Warblade or Crusader at level 5. Have two sets of Initiator maneuvers to draw from (your Swordsage pool dipping as deep as third-level maneuvers, and your Warblade or Crusader pool as deep as second-level maneuvers).

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Barbarian1 (ferocity variant + lion totem variants)
Fighter1 (hit & run tactics + sneak attack variants)

You can't do better.

You want pounce because altough you don't have a second attack from BaB, you can still TWF+Flashing Sun+Haste+Snap Kick (total: 5 attacks)

Ferocity increases STR and DEX being the absolute best for a Shadow Blade user, increasing your to hit by 2 and your damage by 3. And your AC will be improved, too.

Hit & Run Tactics adds DEX as a competence bonus against flat-footed opponents (even if they are immune to precision-based damage).
It also gives you a nice +2 bonus on your initiative checks.
+ a sneak attack die

[HunterOfJello]

You aren't going to get a full +6 BAB if you're taking Swordsage levels, so don't worry about BAB much. Getting some bonuses to your saves could be nice, but those can also be improved by feats. Going for class features that can't be obtained by feats could be a good bet. Here are the typical dips that work well in normal games:

Cleric 1 is sweet (wis synergy)
Cloistered Cleric is often even better
Psychic Warrior 2 (wis synergy)
Ardent 2 (mantles are good, wis synergy)
Barbarian 1-2
Rogue 1-2 (evasion)
Monk 1-2 (flurry of blows, evasion)
Druid w/ Druidic Avenger ACF (+10 ft movement speed, Rage 1/day)
Druid (there's a feat that would boost your animal companion to counting as if you were a level 5 or 6 druid IIRC)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Spellthief 1/ Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) 1, you'll get +2d6 sneak attack and just as many skill points/level. You can put a Wand of Wraithstrike in a wand chamber of one of your weapons, and use it freely due to Spellthief. You can actually use wands of any abjuration, divination, enchantment, illusion, or transmutation from the Sor/Wiz spell list. You can get a Dorje (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/dorjes.htm) of Chameleon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/chameleon.htm) (priced as a 1st level power) and use it due to Psychic Rogue. You can use a dorje (psionic wand) of any other powers from the Psychic Rogue class list as well. You'll also be able to take psionic feats, like Speed of Thought (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#speedOfThought) and Up The Walls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#upTheWalls).

[Zonugal]

It seems that 4 levels of swordsage makes sense. With 2 levels of something else that will leave an initiator level of 5. Assuming a Dex based Swordsage what should those 2 levels be?

What type of character is it? What type of campaign or world are they in? What does the rest of the party look like?

Because while you are getting a lot of suggestions for more combat/stealth-based classes I feel like in E6 a small splash of versatility is a very nice compliment to a character. You have four levels of Swordsage which gets you some nice combat & stealth abilities as well as a BaB of +3. You can't hope to achieve a BaB of +6 with any option so you might as well shoot for a BaB of +4 as to snag some nice feats which have that as its prerequisite.

Now for versatility, power and adaptability I think two levels of Artificer work amazing. It'll pump your BaB up to +4, it'll give you some nice alternative skills and primarily grant you the ability to make/use scrolls & potions of 1st & 2nd level spells within the world.

Spread out your levels as such: Swordsage 2/Artificer 2/Swordsage 2 as to end with some better maneuvers (and better skill selection should you take Open Minded).

Eh?

[Siosilvar]

Spread out your levels as such: Swordsage 2/Artificer 2/Swordsage 2 as to end with some better maneuvers (and better skill selection should you take Open Minded).

Swordsage 1/Other 2/Swordsage +3 gets you 2nd-level maneuvers for three of the four swordsage levels, which is better than two levels restricted to first-level maneuvers only, if you're worried about that sort of thing. Either way, you still only get 3rd-levels at your fourth class level.

[Zonugal]

Listen, I just think this E6 Swordsage should become the Black Panther.

Is that so terrible?!?

[Jodah]

Dip Warblade or Crusader at level 5. Have two sets of Initiator maneuvers to draw from (your Swordsage pool dipping as deep as third-level maneuvers, and your Warblade or Crusader pool as deep as second-level maneuvers).

What is this "or" you speak of? Why not just dip one level each? It would get you access to every discipline along with a couple of interesting abilities from each and you will always have maneuvers that you can use because of the varied recharge mechanics.

(By the by, you still get 2nd level maneuvers for each of those classes).

[Siosilvar]

Listen, I just think this E6 Swordsage should become the Black Panther.

Is that so terrible?!?

Uh, relevance? I just said SS1/other 2/SS+3 is better than SS2/other 2/SS+2 if you want to get as high-level maneuvers as possible.

[gomipile]

What is this "or" you speak of? Why not just dip one level each? It would get you access to every discipline along with a couple of interesting abilities from each and you will always have maneuvers that you can use because of the varied recharge mechanics.

(By the by, you still get 2nd level maneuvers for each of those classes).

In order for the dipped classes to each get 2nd level maneuvers, you'd have to give up getting anything of 3rd level in Swordsage without taking Martial Study and Martial Stance

[Zonugal]

Uh, relevance? I just said SS1/other 2/SS+3 is better than SS2/other 2/SS+2 if you want to get as high-level maneuvers as possible.

I was joking.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're going to dip both Warblade and Crusader, as some have suggested, then do it early. Go Swordsage 1/ Warblade 1/ Crusader 1, pick the two 1st level Stone Dragon maneuvers via Swordsage, and the two 1st level White Raven maneuvers via Warblade, so when you take Crusader you can only learn the two 1st level Devoted Spirit maneuvers. Those two maneuvers will be refreshed and re-granted every single round, so you can spam them as often as you want. Pick up Extra Granted Maneuver and Martial Study at 6th and you'll get any 2nd level maneuver added to Crusader which you can also spam every round.

[Jodah]

In order for the dipped classes to each get 2nd level maneuvers, you'd have to give up getting anything of 3rd level in Swordsage without taking Martial Study and Martial Stance

It is possible I am wrong but wouldn't it work like this:

Get to level 5, take warblade (arbitrarily chosen first). 4 SS levels equate to 2 initiator levels for warblade, plus the new one, equals IL 3 netting up to 2nd level maneuvers.

Get to level 6, take crusader. 5 other levels equates to 2.5 initiator levels, rounded down to 2, plus the new one, equaling IL 3 as above.

If I am wrong, I would like to know where I am going astray, as I enjoy martial adepts and this is how I have been reading them.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It is possible I am wrong but wouldn't it work like this:

Get to level 5, take warblade (arbitrarily chosen first). 4 SS levels equate to 2 initiator levels for warblade, plus the new one, equals IL 3 netting up to 2nd level maneuvers.

Get to level 6, take crusader. 5 other levels equates to 2.5 initiator levels, rounded down to 2, plus the new one, equaling IL 3 as above.

If I am wrong, I would like to know where I am going astray, as I enjoy martial adepts and this is how I have been reading them.

It does work like that, but you still can't get 3rd level Swordsage maneuvers without spending feats on Martial Study/Stance, which is what he was saying. If you go Swordsage/[classes] 2/Swordsage, you'll get two 3rd level maneuver at Swordsage 4, one new maneuver and one from a traded out lower-level maneuver.

Is it worth not getting 2nd level maneuvers in those other classes? I'd say yes, if you go with an Idiot Crusader build. Otherwise, a Swordsage 1/ [classes] 2/ Swordsage 3 will end up with five 1st, two 2nd, and two 3rd level maneuvers. It really just depends on how you want to spend Martial Study later on.

[Talmyr]

I did the old Basic module B3 Rahasia in 3E with the elf warrior monks as a mix of 2-4 levels of swordsage and 2-4 levels of monk - it actually worked rather nicely and certainly thematically. Especially when their monk weapons went all flamey... :smallbiggrin:

[MukkTB]

I'm looking more for out of combat utility to round out the characters decent combat and stealth.

The group is going to consist of this character, a beatstick fighter (2HW), an archer ranger, and sometimes an unoptimized blaster sorcerer. Picking up two levels that each give 1d6 of sneak attack is appealing however I want to pick up some neat out of combat tricks.

The character will have a military background. As built he doesn't have enough charisma or magic to be an officer. So he's a grunt with a bit of talent at scouting. There is a certain appeal to not using magic. I've been playing people with magic power sources one way or another for a while now. It would be interesting to play from the perspective of some mundane(ish) guy trying to make his way in the world.

[HunterOfJello]

If you do:

Ardent 1
SS 1
SS 2
SS 3 (w/ Practiced Manifester feat)
Ardent 2
SS 4

You'd get access to 3rd level psionic powers, 3 psionic mantles, and 3rd level Swordsage maneuvers.


~~~

This is actually a pretty cool build, I'd be tempted to play this myself. Once you start adding feats in, you'd be able to gain access to quite a few cool powers if planned properly.

[gkathellar]

If you're allowed to use Dragon Magazine, Moon-Warded Ranger 2 is nice.

[8wGremlin]

A level of binder with improved binding can be good.


Leraje - Hide Bonus, Low-Light Vision, Precise Shot, Ricochet, Weapon Proficiency
Dahlver-Nar - Mad Soul, Maddening Moan*, Natural Armor, Shield Self
Haagenti - Confusing Touch*, Immunity to Transformation, Shield Proficiency, Weapon Proficiency
Malphas - Bird’s Eye Viewing, Invisibility*, Poison Use, Sudden Strike
Savnok - Call Armor, Heavy Armor Proficiency, Move Ally*, Savnok’s Armor


All quite useful, in some degree

[bigstipidfighte]

Check to see if your DM is making up capstone feats for having the full 6 levels of a class. It's suggested in the source material and some examples are given, but only for core classes.

Still might not be better than the benefits of dipping, but worth checking out.