Everybody loves Bards but me

[TheZenMaster]

As in what the books portray bards?

The core idea of a looser wandering around playing a lute at people just seems so..stupid to me.

There are lots of interesting music based ideas but bard is just not one of them!

But maybe its just me.

Do you, like the core idea of an Elan (As in stereotypical) like bard in DD?

[Mordokai]

*raises hand*

Yeah, you can be an idiot playing the lute. You can also be inspiring orator, singer... or do interprative dance :smallbiggrin:

I like them because they can do a great deal and are not overpowered but fun to play. I myself consider myself much like bard, practicising many areas, but specializing in none of them. Only, you know, tone deaf :smalltongue:

Bards are awesome.

[TheZenMaster]

Yeah, you can be an idiot playing the lute. You can also be inspiring orator, singer... or do interprative dance :smallbiggrin:


Yeah yeah. Point is thats not a bard. A drunkard playing at a tavern? Thats a bard.

Why base so many interesting music based ideas on a fecking bard!

Music doesn't do anything! Thats why realy stupid based magic is slapped onto the bard.

I have nothing against musical based classes but the BARD?

It just doesn't feel right in my head. How the hell does one learn magic through singing!

[Elemental]

In real world history; a bard was a keeper of tradition, history and lore, educator, advisor to nobles and respected member of society.
This was, of course, in the days when everything was handed down through story and song, so the person who could actually tell a good story or sing a good song was important, even more so if they remembered them.

Now, delving back into Dungeons and Dragons, one realises that there is nothing disreputable about bards. In most campaign settings, the written word is very common, making Bards obsolete. However, they still have their place, it's just harder to find.
As such, you find bards adventuring across the land, telling stories, singing songs and seeking knowledge.
The problem lies with the way people play Bards.
Also, they don't have to be musical at all. They can do other things instead.

[u-b]

Note that bards are not as much music-themed as performance-themed. So, if you see any problems with music, just switch to Perform (Oratory) and go ahead with all sorts of inspiring speeches, battlecries, girls-seducing speeches etc. Makes more sense now?

[TheZenMaster]

In real world history; a bard was a keeper of tradition, history and lore, educator, advisor to nobles and respected member of society.


Thing is: I wouldn't send out a Bard to fight dragon. Maybe get the bard to hear my history but not the other way around!

[endoperez]

It just doesn't feel right in my head. How the hell does one learn magic through singing!

In many stories, magic is some sort of a formula, specific words and gestures stringed together. A musician makes music by following a formula (notation) while singing specific words while at the same time controlling his instrument in precise gestures.

In addition, there are myths about spellsongs and spell-singers. In Kalevala, the Finnish epic partly collected and partly created, a sage grows angry with a young man who insults him. The sage, Väinämöinen sings... and the mountains tremble, forests shake, boulders are torn apart; the young man's weapons and equipment are transformed into lightning (sword), animals (arrows into hawks) etc, and he himself is imprisoned in the ground.

[TheZenMaster]

In many stories, magic is some sort of a formula, specific words and gestures stringed together. A musician makes music by following a formula (notation) while singing specific words while at the same time controlling his instrument in precise gestures.

Then make a wizard who sings.

[Killer Angel]

Yeah yeah. Point is thats not a bard. A drunkard playing at a tavern? Thats a bard.


A bard can easily be an actor, reciting while wearing a mask and playing a lyre. A storyteller of epic journeys with a little drum. Imagination is your limit.


I have nothing against musical based classes but the BARD?


Do you have in mind some other musical based class?


It just doesn't feel right in my head. How the hell does one learn magic through singing!

Can't you really feel the magic that lies in music?

[u-b]

Thing is: I wouldn't send out a Bard to fight dragon.

Sure. If you would like to play a bard with some sense of what he is doing, how and why, he might send it to support a party fighting that dragon, thinking and playing him as a secondary caster (he is) and primary, like, NLP master psychologist or something, making those fighters into more focused and better fighters. Force multiplier of sorts - the more troops are against that dragon, the more they get from one bard.

[TheZenMaster]

A bard can easily be an actor, reciting while wearing a mask and playing a lyre. A storyteller of epic journeys with a little drum. Imagination is your limit.

All of that looks stupid in my head during a battle.

"Those ravenous undead will devour us all! SING AT THEM! SING LIKE YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON IT!"


Do you have in mind some other musical based class?

A Siren type caster, that seduces with song.

Thats the only one I can think off thats related to music that sounds good non ironically.



Can't you really feel the magic that lies in music?

Not when magic is a quantifiable and learnable thing.

If there is a school for magic, then why aren't bards taught in mage schools as an alternate magic system!

And why does that magic system allows for more armor!

[Leon]

Thing is: I wouldn't send out a Bard to fight dragon. Maybe get the bard to hear my history but not the other way around!

Words have power. The right words even more.

[Killer Angel]

All of that looks stupid in my head during a battle.


You ar not a single trick bard. You play and dance a kind of thing in tavern, you play and sing different thing on the battlefield.
It's not that real world armies never fought alongside with musicians playing and inspiring the men, you know (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7ppz0f8rUY)?

[Acanous]

The best character I ever played was a bard. He ended up a king. A Human king of the Orcs.
he had Perform: Oratory, and went Bard/Marshal/Legendary Leader/Heir of Syberis.
So you can see, he really didn't rely much on magic so much as his ability to comand, direct, and delegate. The reason he started as a bard was because he wanted to Learn about battles, tales of heroism, and noble families. He wanted to learn firsthand, not from a school. Thus, Bard.

The bard is the steriotypical adventurer. He doesn't want to stay in one spot, he thrives on new experiences, new places. He accumulates knowledge, but not like a wizard studying dusty tomes. To the bard, Knowledge comes from living.

Bards live to the fullest, with all the curiosity and zest of those who truly love what they do, and who value questions more than answers.

[WitchSlayer]

Pfft, I can play a bard that insults people SO HARD that it does EMOTIONAL HARM to them.

I can KILL THEM WITH MY SICK BURNS.

Just one of the many reasons why to play the awesomeness that is bard

[Killer Angel]

Thing is: I wouldn't send out a Bard to fight dragon.

A pity. It's the bard that tells you about that peculiar weak point of the dragon, and that can guess the Real Name of the guardian demon, and so on...

[dethkruzer]

In real world history; a bard was a keeper of tradition, history and lore, educator, advisor to nobles and respected member of society.
This was, of course, in the days when everything was handed down through story and song, so the person who could actually tell a good story or sing a good song was important, even more so if they remembered them.

Now, delving back into Dungeons and Dragons, one realises that there is nothing disreputable about bards. In most campaign settings, the written word is very common, making Bards obsolete. However, they still have their place, it's just harder to find.
As such, you find bards adventuring across the land, telling stories, singing songs and seeking knowledge.
The problem lies with the way people play Bards.
Also, they don't have to be musical at all. They can do other things instead.

And even if they may be obsolete in human society, the same is not necesarrily true with other cultures, the neanderthals from Frostbite are iilliterate unless they spend skill points. not to mention the fact that a D&D will typically be not only a jack of all trades, but a walking dictionary.

[TheZenMaster]

[QUOTE=Killer Angel;12920937]A pity. It's the bard that tells you about that peculiar weak point of the dragon,

If he studied dragonlogy maybe, but if there conveniently happens to be a tale for every enemy he faces, then Its stupid as well!

And tales are known for being exaggerated, and twisted.

Knowing a Dragons weekspot is not a power.

Magic?

Thats a power

Physical STR?

Thats a power

But I just hate that they tried to quantify something thats purely fluff dependant.


can guess the Real Name of the guardian demon,

Pure luck Bull.


Just one of the many reasons why to play the awesomeness that is bard
I meant non ironically


It's not that real world armies never fought alongside with musicians playing and inspiring the men, you know?

Yes but not a fecking bard! It was to keep up morale (Saves against fear effects at best).

WHY CAN A BARD CAST MAGIC! AAAAAAGHR!


He doesn't want to stay in one spot, he thrives on new experiences, new places. He accumulates knowledge, but not like a wizard studying dusty tomes. To the bard, Knowledge comes from living.

Thing is, The bard CLASS is a quantifiable version of that.

A 5th fighter with ranks in song who composes songs about his worldly travels? Thats a bard.

But what the feck is a 1st level bard? Some ******* who heard some fairytales that where twisted from reality a 100 times over?

You can't put a mechanik on being a bard. Thats why I hate him. Its a mechanikal version of something that mechanikaly doesn't work!

[Circle of Life]

ITT: OP has an mental image of Bards not fully supported by either mechanics or fluff, and will fight you to the death to keep it.

Some of the most interesting characters I've played with have been Bards. A dancer that follows the ancient Elvish traditions, tracing sigils on the ground with every flowing step to invoke the power of the earth (Inspire Courage), or a military general with an ancient draconic lineage, whose very conviction causes bitter, swirling winds to spring up with his every word (Dragonfire Inspiration) even as he throws himself into battle to strike down his enemies with a series of flashing strikes as much an art form as anything else (Snowflake Wardance).

There is so much more to the Bard than the guy that strums his mandolin at the dragon and sings songs. You just refuse to see it.

[Killer Angel]

And tales are known for being exaggerated, and twisted.

Knowing a Dragons weekspot is not a power.

Pure luck Bull.

The bard knows how to pick the true part from the myth.
And sorry, but it's not "pure bull luck"... in many written modules, you can find informations with bardic knowledge rolls, and DCs are given for that. The bard can put togheter nonsensical pieces, forgotten infos, child tales and so on... you can say that's only fluff, but usually the thing is based on dice rolls, so it's pretty mechanical, to me.


Yes but not a fecking bard! It was to keep up morale (Saves against fear effects at best).


It's called "inspire courage". If a simple music can do it, played by standard musicians, a bard knows how to maximise the effect.



WHY CAN A BARD CAST MAGIC! AAAAAAGHR!
(snip)
A 5th fighter with ranks in song who composes songs about his worldly travels? Thats a bard.


Magic doesn't really exist, so it merely a different fluff to obtain mystical power.
Clerics pray, Wizards study ancient books, Sorcerers are born with it, Bards tap and control the flow of magic with their music.
To do magic with music you must be a bard, the same as to do magic after praying, you must be a cleric (or a pally).
Your 5th lev. fighter playing a lute is not a bard, for the same reason he doesn't become a cleric and doesn't cast spells if he merely starts praying Kord for help.

[endoperez]

A 5th fighter with ranks in song who composes songs about his worldly travels? Thats a bard.

But what the feck is a 1st level bard? Some ******* who heard some fairytales that where twisted from reality a 100 times over?

A monk can be a 5th-level Fighter who has taken a few unarmed feats who fights unarmed.
A monk can be a 5th-level Fighter who has ranks in Knowledge: Religion and Profession: Scribe.
A barbarian can be a 5th-level Fighter with high strength who is angry.
A cleric can be a 5th-level Fighter with ranks in Knowledge: Religion who preaches religion.
A ranger can be a 5th-level Fighter with ranks in Survival who sometimes uses a bow.
An aristocrat, a knight or a samurai can be a 5th-level Fighter who holds a certain role in society.

However, those terms have specific meanings in D&D (at least out of character), unless house-ruled. Unless bards are house-ruled away, they are characters who can use magic, have many skills and can cause certain effects to occur in people who see or hear him performing a certain task (such as singing). Fighter class can't do that.

[Wavelab]

I fear that you have a dislike for the bard class and you are putting the dislike of all the other things into it as well, exponentially increasing your hate for it.

I myself love the bard. I even made a prestige class around it(in my homebrew signature).

As to your comments on music and magic, Marilyn Manson said "Music is the strongest form of magic." Anyone who has ever listened to music(I exclude things like hip-hop, rap, dance, etc. from this category as they can't be classified as music) will know that music can be powerful. Opera singers can give people goosebumps, metal musicians can literally scare people. Music is indeed powerful.

So in conclusion, I love bards, I do not expect you to love them too, but I suggest that you see the positives in something before ranting about the negatives.

[Coidzor]

Pfft, I can play a bard that insults people SO HARD that it does EMOTIONAL HARM to them.

I can KILL THEM WITH MY SICK BURNS.

Just one of the many reasons why to play the awesomeness that is bard

Sounds like you're talking about Doomspeak, but that only makes them weakened. Stormcaller? :smallconfused:

[Alleran]

Of course people like bards. Every busty and happy-to-please bar wench (and the unfriendly ones, with enough Bluff and/or Diplomacy) in every campaign setting ever stands testament to that.

[TheZenMaster]

The bard knows how to pick the true part from the myth.

Why can't only a bard do that?


And sorry, but it's not "pure bull luck"... in many written modules, you can find informations with bardic knowledge rolls, and DCs are given for that.

Its forced mechanical rules on something that doesn't work with mechanical rules.




It's called "inspire courage". If a simple music can do it, played by standard musicians, a bard knows how to maximise the effect.

OK. I give you that.


Magic doesn't really exist, so it merely a different fluff to obtain mystical power.
Clerics pray, Wizards study ancient books, Sorcerers are born with it, Bards tap and control the flow of magic with their music.

If you think about it it doesn't make sense:

If by merely playing the correct notes you create sonic booms why doesnt any person with Proffesion in music a spellcaster.

2: Why aren't wizards studying this alternate form of magic.

I know magic is powerfull but it does NOT I repeat it does NOT have the powers to warp reality.

What does magic music have to do with real life bard examples?


Your 5th lev. fighter playing a lute is not a bard, for the same reason he doesn't become a cleric and doesn't cast spells if he merely starts praying Kord for help.

Which is why this class doesn't work.

Knowing things and being able to discern them is a fluffy thing, and making mechanical rules (Even more a CLASS) for it just doesn't work.

Its like only if you pick "Evil mastermind" (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Classic_Villian_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)) as your prestige class only THEN you become an evil mastermind.

Or mysterious stranger with

"Adventurer magnet: If your in a tavern, atract 1d4 adventures per day"

Or only an assassin class is an assassin.

[Yora]

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/8633/motivatora448505a899ec8.jpg

[Excession]

Sounds like you're talking about Doomspeak, but that only makes them weakened. Stormcaller? :smallconfused:

I would guess a 4e Bard using Vicious Mockery.


I know magic is powerfull but it does NOT I repeat it does NOT have the powers to warp reality.

On this, and most of the rest of that post tbh, I am forced to disagree with you. If your magic can't warp reality you're doing it wrong. :smallwink:

[The Glyphstone]

The answer is yes, everyone except you likes Bards. You've locked yourself into thinking Bard=Court Bard, pretty much the only type of bard who wouldn't belong on a battlefield.
- The idea of troops singing in battle is quite literally prehistoric, to work themselves into a trance or frenzy before confronting the enemy...it'd take a Bard who knew the songs to lead them in the ritual and keep them going.
-Likewise, note that most Bardic spells are not blasting people with sonic booms, but manipulative and deceptive - the old adage of "Music soothes the savage beast"? Bards embody that principle, where the 'savage beast' is anything from a bear to a troll.


If by merely playing the correct notes you create sonic booms why doesnt any person with Proffesion in music a spellcaster.

2: Why aren't wizards studying this alternate form of magic.

I know magic is powerfull but it does NOT I repeat it does NOT have the powers to warp reality.
Magic. Doesn't warp reality. Lolwut.

[Coidzor]

If you think about it it doesn't make sense:

If by merely playing the correct notes you create sonic booms why doesnt any person with Proffesion in music a spellcaster.

Well, it's rather simple to come up with an explanation, so I don't know why you're unable to do so. :smallconfused:

There's any number of explanations, say, inborn talent or inborn spark of magic that is discovered via the study of music rather than X or Y other things that could lead down a different road. Maybe their study of music deliberately went into magic and people who don't go that far or don't have the mundane knack for studying music to that extent can play music just fine, but don't have the sense of how it interacts with the fabric of the universe.


2: Why aren't wizards studying this alternate form of magic.


Why aren't wizards all doing the Ur-Priest thing and stealing the secrets of the divine from druids and clerics? Wizards are doing just fine, and if they really want to, there's 2 prestige classes just for that. :smallwink:

[The Glyphstone]

Why aren't wizards all doing the Ur-Priest thing and stealing the secrets of the divine from druids and clerics? Wizards are doing just fine, and if they really want to, there's 2 prestige classes just for that. :smallwink:

Or why aren't commoners picking up spellbooks and casting Shapechanges and Meteor Swarms all over the place? Because it takes study time to learn how to master magic, and wizards already have a better form of magic, so why learn bardic magic instead?

[TheZenMaster]

OK. So Im the only one who loathes the bard. Question answered.

[Badgerish]

If you turn up to a 4ed game with a Bard, people will generally say "<Bleep> yeah! a Bard!"

Lute-playing courtly fops are a possible interpretation of 4ed bards, but certainly not the only one. They are more always-on magical than other versions of bards, also they are played actively, not simply providing bonuses to other people's skills/attacks.

I've played a bard, but never referred to myself by that title. I was a master of 'word-magic' and sage of all tales.

[ken-do-nim]

I'm a big fan of the original bard class:
- effectively a wizard of half your level
- effectively a thief of half your level
- charm, lore, and suggestion abilities
- fast xp chart
- ability to cast spells in leather and chain mail (implied)
- one language per intelligence point
- tons of followers
- fight and save as clerics

Best solo class ever.

[Elemental]

I think TheZenMaster's main problem with the Bard class is how they are often portrayed.

The point of the fact is, most Bards are hardworking individuals who practice long and hard to achieve mastery of their art. It is implied by the rule book that they seek out obscure bits of lore and learn little bits and pieces of magic from it that mesh with their mundane abilities. And as a side-effect, they usually have an encyclopaedic knowledge of history and myth (how can you not when you seek out every story?).
The reason Wizards don't do magic this way is that their studies would cut into the four hours of practice a day required to have a truly masterful ability with the performing arts.
It's almost impossible to be both virtuoso and master scientist at the same time. Not saying wizardry isn't also an art, but it requires a lot of science as well (like architecture).


And on the nature of spellcasting, it doesn't matter if you have the runes in the right alignment and the words said with the correct pronunciation, without the power behind it, you don't get anything.
Obviously, there are a lot of people in the world of Dungeons and Dragons who are highly skilled at some form of performance, but without the spark of magic, they're not PC Class Bards.



And I've gone of and a tangent again, haven't I?


Edit: And while I have no problem with the bard class, I hate the way people play it and I'd remove the alignment restriction if I were DMing.

[Leon]

WHY CAN A BARD CAST MAGIC! AAAAAAGHR!


Because they can.
If you require them to not then for your games don't let them do that (In Dark Sun Bards are not spell casters but masters of poisons and deceit )

Bards are cool and can be many different things in one class (even as others have put not actually be a member of the named class)

I have had a fancy to play one for a while as a Gonnagle.

[TheZenMaster]

I think TheZenMaster's main problem with the Bard class is how they are often portrayed.

Thats one part.

I have some beef with practically all parts of it:

1: That its a music based inspirer but OK. Fine, there are historical examples of that. I still don't think it could possibly have the same effect but whatever.

2: That its a class for something that isn't a class.

Like Miko being a Samurai, or an Assassin NOT having Assassin Levels, the bard is a concept and not much of a class. Why can't a wizard be telling tales and singing songs? Why can't a fighter? Its not a skill that requires you to study. Its a world experience thing and trying to quantify fluff as a class is stupid in my idea. Its almost exactly like having "Mysterious stranger" class with "Attract adventurers: "If your in a tavern and wearing a cloak you attract 1d4 adventureres per day per level"

Going around and learning obscure lore is a fluff thing, not a thing worth a class over.

This is almost literally "Adventurer the class".

3: Because the class is very thin on what it should be doing for some reason magic is attached to the class....Lol wut?

Why does going around and telling stories give me the capability to learn to cast music spells?

Why isn't this a separate class. Musicmancer?

I understand

4: The aspects of the class are at odds with each other. To be simple: This class could be split into 2+ other classes and make more sense.

Swordfighter, and Music Based spellcaster. And remove the bard lore thing altogether.

It makes about as much sense as a dragon having

Attract Princes: You can attract 1D4 princesses in the area. If there are no princesses in the area, one just happens to spontaneously apear in the area.

5: This is sort of the above thing but repeated: I think the Bard is a jack of all trades but once again, that just doesn't work if bards are a class.

A jack of all trades would be a large multiclasser, not a single class taker.

Its like having "Jack of all trades" as a profession in school.With you taking jack of all trades classes every Wednesday.

If your a jack of all trades you take Magic then learn swordfighting.

The bard is an attempt to create a class that studies combining those together. In my mind that doesn't make sense.

[Killer Angel]

Its forced mechanical rules on something that doesn't work with mechanical rules.


That's not limited to bardic knowledge, we have plenty of examples of such a thing.
Skills? basically all the social ones: gather informations, diplomacy...
Feats? look at Leadership...
It the way D&D works.

[Leon]

With this much dislike for the components of what make a "bard" one why worry about it and move on to life without them?

Adventurer the class is the Factotum.

[TheZenMaster]

{scrubbed}

[Killer Angel]

{scrubbed the post, scrub the quote.}

THe discussion is not limited to PF, but that's not the point. the things I've listed are fluffy things, that should be based on RP with vague and uncertain results, and yet they're defined by RAW. Mechanical effects for things that are not mechanical.

And, BTW:


Like Miko being a Samurai, or an Assassin NOT having Assassin Levels, the bard is a concept and not much of a class. Why can't a wizard be telling tales and singing songs? Why can't a fighter? Its not a skill that requires you to study.

UH? :smallconfused: Learning to proper play a large amount of instruments is a thing that takes years, and study is usually required. Study and constant application that comes also for singing songs, yes, or do you believe opera singers don't exercise every day?
Why can't a fighter be casting wizard's spells? They only had to read a book...

[TheZenMaster]

Also for singing some song, yes, or do you believe opera singers don't exercise every day?

They do. But they don't shoot lazors for doing so.

Again, make a musicmancer, not some horrible MusicheroAdventurermancer.

[Wiwaxia]

Really, if we're going at this from a traditional perspective, the question isn't "why are there bards?" but "why are there wizards?". Most every society has used music to motivate and inspire people in religion, war and work, and most have attributed "magic" properties to this music. You have war bagpipes of the Scots, the ritual drums of shamans, the epics poems of the druids, the fife and drum, the military marching band, Orpheus, who could sing his way to the underworld and back, the protest songs of the labor and civil rights movements, the blues player who sells his soul at the crossroads for the sake of his music. In Tolkein, who is more or less the ultimate wellspring of all things D&D, the world was literally sung into existence, and the greatest spells of the First Age are Luthien's songs.

In all of this accumulated history, mythology and fiction, there is music, and magic music, everywhere, and nary a Magic Missile or a Fireball to be seen.

[Killer Angel]

They do. But they don't shoot lazors for doing so.

Neither David Copperfield summons angels. Your point?

[Marlowe]

Next you'll be telling us that people who spend all day in the library studying can't throw fireballs, or that my local minister can't heal people by touching them. Or that hippies can't turn into bears.

I mean, come on. You're just getting silly.

[messy1349]

i used to hate bards until i had a revelation (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/319664-revelation-about-bards.html).

[TheZenMaster]

Neither David Copperfield summons angels. Your point?

I don't even get what your talking about in this.

David copperfield studies in sleigh of hand.

If we had actual magic in the world, studying it would make sense.

This is a class that tries to classify "Adventurer" when I already explained why it doesn't work.

Anybody can be a bard, as long as they have experience and storytelling ability.

Its not worth a class.

[Wiwaxia]

They do. But they don't shoot lazors for doing so.

Again, make a musicmancer, not some horrible MusicheroAdventurermancer.


And nobody shoots fireballs by spouting some gibberish and tossing bat guano in the air.

So I don't really get your point here.

Also, "musicmancer" literally means "one who divines or prophesies with music" (hint: Bard)

[elpollo]

A 5th bard with weapon focus who frequently engages in combat? That's a fighter. But what the feck is a 1st level Fighter? Some ******* who swung a sword 100 times over?

Seriously, what do Fighters do? Ok, sometimes they can hit something with their sword, but that's just pure bull luck. They have to roll a die - that's not real power.

Don't even get me started on Clerics.



Why can't only a bard do that?

Why can a Fighter take weapon specialisation, whereas a fighter can't? We can do this with every ability available to anyone. The justification is "an attempt to balance the game".



Knowing things and being able to discern them is a fluffy thing, and making mechanical rules (Even more a CLASS) for it just doesn't work.

Except that it is not a fluffy thing. There are knowledge skills for a reason - much like being able to swing a sword in real life does not grant your character a better base attack bonus, having out of game knowledge does not grant your character in game knowledge.



Its like only if you pick "Evil mastermind" (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Classic_Villian_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)) as your prestige class only THEN you become an evil mastermind.

Or mysterious stranger with

"Adventurer magnet: If your in a tavern, atract 1d4 adventures per day"

Or only an assassin class is an assassin.

If you pick the Evil Mastermind prestige class then you become an Evil Mastermind - you can be an evil mastermind with or without it, but (much like with every other class in the game) you do not get the class abilities of a class without taking levels in that class, because the alternative is rediculous.



Like Miko being a Samurai, or an Assassin NOT having Assassin Levels, the bard is a concept and not much of a class. Why can't a wizard be telling tales and singing songs? Why can't a fighter? Its not a skill that requires you to study. Its a world experience thing and trying to quantify fluff as a class is stupid in my idea.

They can. They can pick up the perform skill (and singing, storytelling and playing instruments do require picking up a skill, which is why in the real world not everyone is a novel-writing-concerto-playing-opera-singer). What they can't do is use that skill to inspire people to a degree where they better than themselves, and if you ever wanted a character who can do that (although clearly you don't) then you make a Bard.



Going around and learning obscure lore is a fluff thing, not a thing worth a class over.

It's a mechanical thing, putting ranks in knowledge skills, and it's a small part of the class.



3: Because the class is very thin on what it should be doing for some reason magic is attached to the class....Lol wut?

No. As others have said, it's a commonly occuring idea in many different cultures - both knowledge and music having power, and those responsible for keeping/playing them being mystical. Lullabies, too, have been around for a long time, so the link between music and sleep is one that has been echoed in many myths - why is it so hard to expand that to other illusion based magic (particularly when the creatures singing the lullaby - often fae - are capable of such magic themselves)?



Why does going around and telling stories give me the capability to learn to cast music spells?

Why does throwing guano in the air and making the peace sign allow you to cast a fireball? It's a game. It's not a huge leap to go from music user to magic user. If you're just going to disregard thousands of years of human culture, then I'm afraid we don't really have any other reason.



Thats for players who suck at RPing. Ive always gives HUGE bonuses to the skill depending on how well they RP.

Dice based resolution mechanics are for players who suck at RPing. I've always used free-form roleplaying to resolve everything.

Alternatively, the dice based resolution mechanics are for players who want to play by the rules suggested for resolving things with dice, and to prevent people from disagreeing with the outcome.

[TheZenMaster]

Next you'll be telling us that people who spend all day in the library studying can't throw fireballs,

That analogy doesn't work and you know it.


i used to hate bards until i had a revelation.

Dam you. :smallmad:

You made me like Bards.

edit:


And nobody shoots fireballs by spouting some gibberish and tossing bat guano in the air.

So I don't really get your point here.

Also, "musicmancer" literally means "one who divines or prophesies with music" (hint: Bard)

This argument is annoying since I need to explain my point and what exactly do I mean to every person over and over again.

If DD is a universe where singing is magic, why isn't ANYBODY who sings magical.

And no its not. The bard is a storyteller, not a musician. Thats PART of bardhood, not its core idea.

[The Glyphstone]

I don't even get what your talking about in this.

David copperfield studies in sleigh of hand.

If we had actual magic in the world, studying it would make sense.

This is a class that tries to classify "Adventurer" when I already explained why it doesn't work.

Anybody can be a bard, as long as they have experience and storytelling ability.

Its not worth a class.

So you have an irreconcilable issue with Bards as "Adventurer, the Class", but you have no problem with Fighter - a person who fights - as "Human(oid) Being, the Class"?




If DD is a universe where singing is magic, why isn't ANYBODY who sings magical.

And no its not. The bard is a storyteller, not a musician. Thats PART of bardhood, not its core idea.
Because you're missing the point. It's not that singing has magic properties, it's specifically Bardic songs, which as mentioned above, are more 'realistic' in the sense of fantasy than Wizards or Sorcerers. Anyone can sing, but it takes practice and training to sing the notes and songs that turn people into frogs, the same way not anyone who sings gets top billing on Broadway musicals.

[TheZenMaster]

A 5th bard with weapon focus who frequently engages in combat? That's a fighter. But what the feck is a 1st level Fighter? Some ******* who swung a sword 100 times over?


Im sick of this.

Im really sick of this. Whatever.

Im tired of this circular argument.

[Bastian Weaver]

Anybody can be a bard, as long as they have experience and storytelling ability.

Its not worth a class.

Anyone can be a fighter, as long as they have strong muscles and a weapon.
Anyone can be a thief, as long as they have nimble fingers and a set of lockpicks.
It's not worth a class.

Really, you're letting the emotions cloud your judgement. Being a bard requires talent, skill, experience, training. Knowledge is power. Knowing ancient songs and legends can be very useful when you're dealing with, I don't know, the very exact creatures that the songs and legends tell about. Inspiring people with music is awesome.
And also, chicks dig guys that can sing.

So yeah, there are pretty much two people who don't like bards. You and Nale, because his dad told him that bards were underpowered.

[Wiwaxia]

If DD is a universe where singing is magic, why isn't ANYBODY who sings magical.

And no its not. The bard is a storyteller, not a musician. Thats PART of bardhood, not its core idea.

I sing in the shower. I am not an opera singer.

I tell stories. I cannot recite a dozen epics off the top of my head (that isn't hyperbole, by the way. Real druids and bards memorized at least that much)

[Sucrose]

If DD is a universe where singing is magic, why isn't ANYBODY who sings magical.

For exactly the same reason as anyone who tosses bat guano in the air whilst muttering doesn't produce a fireball; it takes years of study of the way that music affects reality specifically (not just how to sing well) to be able to use your music in a way that maximizes the magical effects, to the point where they are noticeable. And if you're studying said music-magic? That's represented by taking levels in Bard.

[Acanous]

If you want Bards to have more spells, there's a prestige class for that.
If you want Bards to have less spells and more music, there's a prestige class for that.
Much like if you want your fighter to be exceptional with one type of weapon, there's a prestige class for that. If you want a Wizard to focus on one school of magic, there's a prestige class or two each.

Bard as a base class is like the other base classes in that it gives you all of the basic tools you need to play your starting concept before focusing on one aspect and expanding on it.
If you're wondering why they have so many different abilities, it's because historically, Bards covered a broad area from writers and singers to actors and scholars.
Asking why a Wizard doesn't study Bardic magic is like asking why a particle physicist doesn't study telecommunications. They are different fields of study, even when they can be beneficial to eachother, and both take a lot of time to learn, not to mention keeping up to date with.
I've always seen the levelling up process as "Keeping up to date" as far as a real-world analogy goes. If a wizard stops studying arcane magic to go off and learn how to swing a sword, he's falling behind and getting out of date in his field.

So there you go. Start Bard and go Virtuoso or Sublime Chord or something, whathever seems to suit your concept.

[Killer Angel]

If DD is a universe where singing is magic, why isn't ANYBODY who sings magical.


'cause not everyone is sufficiently gifted to know how to make magic with music.
D&D is a universe where praying gods let you cast spells, and yet not everybody who pray starts casting spells.

[Elemental]

I think I shall return to the original question because we've all been distracted by the definition of the term bard and how it relates to the Dungeons and Dragons world.
TheZenMaster has clearly stated he doesn't like the class, he said so in the first post, trying to tell him otherwise is not our job.
I personally find monks to lack style and would never prestige into archmage because it sounds so arrogant and doesn't feel worth it to me.



Do you, like the core idea of an Elan (As in stereotypical) like bard in DD?

No, I don't like any sort of stereotypical character. Whether bard, rogue, barbarian, wizard, paladin, you name it.
I prefer characters to be real, not shallow stereotypes, and if you can't play a bard as even remotely sane, then you're playing something else.
Bards are quite capable of being serious, non-childlike individuals. They are not stupid, they are not weak, they are not cowards, they are not opportunistic thieves and they are not liable to burst into song as if the world is a bad musical.

In short, I hate stereotypical bards as much as the Original Poster.
Regular bards? I have no problem with them.

[Heliomance]

For a depiction of how bards can be truly epic, read Diana Wynne Jones' Cart and Cwidder.

[TheCountAlucard]

One of the PCs is a bard in my Exalted game. In addition to persuasive words that lets him charm others, songs that can overwrite people's wills, and wreathing his weapons in a corona of radioactive hellfire, he also dances. :smallamused:

So, no, I don't have a problem with them. :smalltongue:

[Ardantis]

I used to build Bards, and they were useful for many things.

When a blue dragon kicked up the dust in a courtyard, making it hard to see, we discovered him after he bit the bard and the music stopped.

When we adventured into orcish lands, and our wizard cast flame sphere on the orcs, we were emboldened by his accounts of the legendary flammability of the orcish people.

When I DMed, our players were too busy figuring out the game to understand what was going on. My GMPC bard acted as The Plot, at least until they could generate their own.

[Bayonet Priest]

I like Bards precisely because of their jack of all trades, adaptable nature. Adventurer the class? Yes please. When I look at a bard I don't see a fop dancing around with a mandolin in combat. Instead I see an experienced adventurer who has picked up his skills and knowledge and magical tricks the hard way, barely surviving countless expeditions. He's genre savvy, all those things that experienced players keep in mind? He knows those too, at least on a subconscious level.

Of course I prefer a bard speaking oratory to rocking out with his mandolin in combat but that's because I like the bard to mix it up with sword or bow. So music really isn't what I like about the class, what I like is the same thing lots of people like about the rogue, only he has some spellcasting instead of sneak attack.

The bard can be many things, sometimes all at the same time so when someone says they love the bard and someone says they hate the bard they're probably talking about two different bards.

[Morph Bark]

Thing is: I wouldn't send out a Bard to fight dragon. Maybe get the bard to hear my history but not the other way around!

I wouldn't send a rogue to fight a dragon, or a pirate, or anything else that is either weak in a straight-up fight, a liar, a thief, a potential backstabber, a murderer, a pyromaniac or just any unwashed hobo, which frankly describes a load of PCs.

This is why Bards are a support class, and incredibly good at it too. You know epic moments in movies or games? Know how they are almost always accompanied by epic music? Or how a good song can cheer you up on a bad day? That's what Bards are for.

Frankly, if one were to stat any character from a movie, game or series that ever gave an inspiring speech, there'd likely be a level of Bard in there. Or maybe Marshal, but Bard is more likely.


Really, if I take Leadership, half my followers of level 3 or higher are Bards. The rest are Marshal/Dragon Shamans and a few skillmonkeys.

[Telonius]

Loser with a lute - Dumb idea.

Person who's trying to understand the essence of a reality that was created by music (a la Middle Earth)...
Person who's studying a magic that requires an understanding of the mathematical/musical themes involved, an audience to hear it, and the charisma to project it to them...
Person who understands that no single trait can win the day all the time, but that each instrument in the orchestra has its place...

... Good idea.

[Fhaolan]

Music being magic is a pretty standard mythological trope. Finland and Greece are filled with myths about music and magic being interchangable. Anyone who knows the right songs can produce magical effects. The trick being knowing the right songs, and being skilled enough to actually play them. Pretty much identical to the way D&D portrays Wizards. Celtic myth has quite a few similar things, although they tend to specialize in music being mesmerizing or producing halucinations. Which is why the D&D bard originally cast illusion spells primarily.

There are many myths that involve music being used to create the world in the first place, so if you can learn parts of that song that was used you can modify reality by modifying the primal song via harmonics.

There are modern fantasy/sci-fi novels based on the concept. The last explanation I read connected magic music to string theory. The idea that if you produce the right harmonies, you can actually change reality via changing the vibration of the quantum strings.

The D&D bard in most cases however, is just fluffed very badly. The types of mytholigical figures who could produce magical effects via music were never *just* wandering minstrels. They were priests, wizards and the like, who were chaotic types that liked to portray themselves as wandering minstrels. Add to that the original D&D bard was designed when the system didn't allow for human multi-classing and was very focused on 'your class is your job', so the designers tried various methods, making Bard the first prestige class in AD&D 1st edition, and building a specific class for a rogue/priest/wizard that used music as the casting method for magic for AD&D 2nd edition. There was an even earlier version for OD&D, but I can't find it now to see what it was about.

[Kalirren]

To answer the OP's first post? I've played a lot of Bards before, but never before have I played a skald, nor have I ever played an archetypical magical trickster.

I like playing Bards, especially in PbP, because they maximize your screen time, and your potential to contribute. Bards have a very broad natural base of skills and powers. No matter what the party is doing, you can easily be involved, and a higher degree of player involvement is so often key to group success/survival in PbP's high-attrition environment.

Mechanically, is the Bard a well thought-out class? I don't think it is. There are two purposes of using classes in an RPG system at all; to make character creation easy, and to define and protect party role. Bards explicitly cross party roles, and their most distinctive class feature pales in comparison to a full spell list (though to be fair, most things do). Of course, by that standard, fully half, if not two-thirds or more, of the classes in D&D really aren't well thought-out at all, and the optimal class is always the homebrewed class taken from 1 to 20.

[Narren]

How about we just change the name to "Musicmancer" and call it a day?

[lt_murgen]

Dice based resolution mechanics are for players who suck at RPing. I've always used free-form roleplaying to resolve everything.

Alternatively, the dice based resolution mechanics are for players who want to play by the rules suggested for resolving things with dice, and to prevent people from disagreeing with the outcome.

My DM has a very efficient and effective way of resolving these fluffy things. First, you RP it. You tell the story, make the lie, decide what part of the library to search, etc. That gives you a bonus or penalty to the roll, then you roll.

THis helps resolve the issue of the shy, anxious player who cannot articulate as well as his/her 18 INT 17 CHA character.

[pffh]

Remember most vikings were bards. Poems, songs and stories are all parts of being a bard and were a huge part of being a respectable viking. Reciting an awesome poem at the court of a viking chief/king could net you massive gifts like a ship, barrel of silver, several bear pelts, a crew to man the ship and weapon of some sorts and they would probably invite you to stay for a few weeks.

In the same vein the worst insults were to have a poem written about how much you suck.

So no not all bards are guys in tights plinking away at a lute.

[Kalirren]

How about we just change the name to "Musicmancer" and call it a day?

This sure would solve a lot of problems, wouldn't it? Seconded.

Give it Sorcerer spellcasting too, why not? Then it becomes a -real- alternative to Wizard. Give up one caster level and prepared casting in exchange for a fixed spells known list, a lot of utility, slightly better saves, and far better skills. A much fairer trade than either of the ones that currently exists.

IMHO a much better approximation of Vainamoinen in one class.

[lt_murgen]

Let me see if I can encapsulate Zen’s argument. I don’t neceasrily agree or disagree, just trying to pin the jello to the tree, as it were.

In D&D there are sources of power. To a mage, their connection to magic is their power. To Clerics, it is their connection to their diety. Fighter’s rely on physical strength, and rogues rely on quickness of hands and feet.

Bards (and to a lesser extent rangers, warblades, duskblades, beguilers, etc) blur these connections by picking and choosing amongst the sources and developing game mechanics to support what could be merely a type of build.

Why have a bard when you could have a mage that uses song to cast spells?
Why have a bard when you could have a fighter with a high-charisma and leadership abilities to inspire her companions?

To Zen’s mind (and again, Zen please correct me, I am merely trying to interpret civilly) bard’s have supernatural and extrordinary abilities because the game mechanics require them- else the entire class doesn’t make sense. Being able to sing a song that gives bonus’ in combat is an extraordinary ability- else anyone who can sing well enough could do it. BUt it has to be an extraorinary “class feature” to prevent anyone else from singing inspiring songs. A circular chain of logic- to sing an inspiring song you have to be a bard because bards sing inspiring songs.

It’s the same problem with Bardic Knowledge. If you pick up knowledge as you adventure, then what makes a bard so special? Well, they have Bardic Knowledge which comes from…. Adventuring. Hmm. So why doesn’t any adventurer have that ability? Well, then it wouldb’t be special enough to warrant a class. The same circular reasoning. For that matter, the whole spellcasting thing falls into this same logic. If a bard can learn a few spells here and there, then why can't a fighter? Because its a class ability of bard's to be able to do so.

Now this is countered by people saying things like "if a fighter wants to cast spells, take a level in mage" or "take the leadership skill if they want to inspire the troops." But that is exactly Zen's point- mechanics DO exist to allow close approximations of bards (rangers, beguilers, etc). So why is a CLASS necesary and not just a skill/build tree?

[TheZenMaster]

YES! YES!

I was so sick of arguing when the argument was curricular!

Thank you! THANK YOU!

[joe]

I love bards. I have like 4 different bard characters.

A crazed Opera Singer who worships a dark entity and in his poems preaches about how the end of humanity is coming.
A gnome bard who pretty much acted as a leprechaun, complete with limericks.
A bard/sorcerer who traveled with a circus and played an accordion.
For a less serious campaign I made a bard with an elemental-bound guitar who worshiped the Gods of Rock.
My friend made a Bard/Ur-Priest who would run around telling tales about how the gods were unworthy of worship. That was really neat too.

As far as the OP's disapproval of magic in music, I'm fairly certain the beginning of the Silmirallion talks about magical music being used in the creation of the world. It's been a long time since I've read the book.

As far as disapproval of the term "Bard" for the class, I can think of far worse instances of a class name not reflecting the class features. Rogue in particular comes to mind. A cleric leaves his temple to go out and preach the way he believes his gods to be worshiped, or a paladin who betrays his ethos, or a wizard who abandons his order and decides to strike it alone, are all examples of "rogues" without any instance of Rogue class levels.

Shouldn't an Archivist remain in a library?

I don't personally have an issue with Rogue used as a class name, but if we're going to rename Bard "Music Guy" than I think it makes sense to rename Rogue "Stealth and Tricks Guy" or something to that extent.

tl;dr Version - I like bards.

Also: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html

[Daer]

well at least 3.x everyone can get those spells and tricks,as long they meet the requirements (casting stat high enough) and spend time learning them (taking level of casting class) .

I like bards personally, Lots of options what to do in situations, even if it goes to battle. Of course they are not as OP as wizard so player need to be able to use bards talents to make her work well.

Though i guess my favourite bard would be Gabriel from Xena. Even she can't do magic, she has plenty of that bard spirit in her. and really can't think many other bards.. They aren't that popular sadly.

[lt_murgen]

Anything to help. I love civil discussion. I live for it.


Now, in answer to my own question, here is my take on it.

Mages have magic, priests have faith, fighters have strength, rogues have guile. Bards have KNOWLEDGE.

Each one takes their source, studies it, lives with it, builds their life around it. Each finds ways to take their source of power to heights of which others can only dream. Fighters may have faith, but it will not turn undead. Rogues may wield a blade, but will never acheive one-ness with their weapon as a true master would.

Bards live to KNOW. To know how to listen, how to learn, and how to retain what they have learned. But most importantly, they have figured out that the more they know and use what they know, the more powerful they become. Thier knowledge has become second nature, instinctive, beyond what any normal person could ever hope to approach. They are Xanatos, they are Yoda, they are Benjamin Franklin Gates (National Treasure), they are FDR and JFK combined when giving speeches. No other class can approach the sheer intimate knoweldge of the workings of the real world as a bard, and no other class can manipulate those workings as well.

[Urpriest]

If there is a school for magic, then why aren't bards taught in mage schools as an alternate magic system!


...it is. You really have never heard of Bardic Colleges? Have you ever picked up a sourcebook outside the PHB?

[Hiro Protagonest]

i used to hate bards until i had a revelation (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/319664-revelation-about-bards.html).
Link's sorta hard to pin down. I can respect that OoT/MM Link is a bard or bard//warblade with Wild Cohort and Familiar and Improved Familiar. Most of the others are factotum//warblade or factotum/warblade.

Anyone can be a fighter, as long as they have strong muscles and a weapon.
Anyone can be a thief, as long as they have nimble fingers and a set of lockpicks.
It's not worth a class.


This is why 5e should be point-based. Or we should all switch to GURPS.

[TheZenMaster]

{Scrubbed}

[Hiro Protagonest]

No. NEVER. Points buy are fun for making characters but they lack the thrill of leveling up.

I like XP points rather than leveling for verisimilitude. You don't suddenly gain a bunch of new abilities, you train in one and gain it more quickly.

[TheZenMaster]

I like XP points rather than leveling for verisimilitude. You don't suddenly gain a bunch of new abilities, you train in one and gain it more quickly.

Well I like leveling up.

At first points thrilled me with thier flexibility but they just never matched up with leveling up for me.

Also Gurps has the worst organization and artistic layout in any RPG book ever.

[prufock]

Music doesn't do anything! Thats why realy stupid based magic is slapped onto the bard.

Magic doesn't do anything either. Auras don't do anything. Pretending to be a bear doesn't do anything. Loving nature doesn't do anything. Praying for healing or lightning storms doesn't do anything. Does that make wizards, marshals, druids, clerics, and paladins bad classes or character types? It's fantasy.

[TheZenMaster]

Magic doesn't do anything either. Auras don't do anything. Pretending to be a bear doesn't do anything. Loving nature doesn't do anything. Praying for healing or lightning storms doesn't do anything. Does that make wizards, marshals, druids, clerics, and paladins bad classes or character types? It's fantasy.

I agree. I was completly wrong there.

Its just something I personally dislike.

But I also dislike that magic casting is slapped onto the bard.

Why isn't it a separate thing?

[Killer Angel]

I'd like to note that the concept of "adventuring bard" is not peculiar to D&D, but it's also present in various RPGs, with settings not limited to fantasy ones. Shadowrun and the Rocker class, for example.

[Strormer]

Do you even think about how stupid that sounds? Bardic college?

A college for being a bard!

Just make a musicmancer collage!

I've done my best to stay out of this one as I love bards for various reasons, (they're actually my favorite class in 4e and second to rangers in 3.5), but I have to correct this.

Fochlucan Lyrsit (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=2) is a PrC fluffed solely on being a bard from the fochlucan college speciefically.

Also see the college of Solitude from TES: Skyrim for another wonderful example of a bardic college. In fact, Skyrim poses an excellent theme for bards in general. Adventurer is not a career, it's called being a PC. Bard is a career that allows for being a PC.

That said, if you hate bards, by all means, hate them.

[Gavinfoxx]

I love Bards. I just completely reject the default fluff of them. The carefree crap is just PHB fluff nonsense. The bard is actually, when you look at the numbers without thinking of the traveling minstrel thing, someone who is a Leader of Men, with incredibly powerful buffing abilities, debuffs and spellcasting, and is a capable combatant.

The bard has all of the necessary bits for leadership. Int, Charisma, Knowledge Skills to make correct decisions, healing, buffs, appropriate class abilities that can give Morale bonuses, charm magic. All the stuff that WotC thinks is leadership.

Any Bard of mine would not call himself a Bard. He would play music or use a lute or anything. Hell, he would be Lawful if the DM allowed it. He would call himself an Officer, and he would not play music or perform in public or dance. He would be a grizzled military veteran who kills people, and keeps his men alive. He would be adventuring after he left the Army, drinking away his pension was the only thing left to him, and he needed the thrill of combat again, and people under him to be responsible for, or he would end up dead in an alley somewhere. He would be gritty.

So as a Bard, he would basically do soemthing like this: Use Perform (Oratory) to start shouting orders to the team (Inspire Courage), and then close to melee, and start fighting with weapons, while keeping up the Inspire Courage as a free action. He would sometimes cast spells to support his squad, or to help them overwhelm the enemy. Mostly, it's Inspire Courage and fighting in melee.

[Ivellius]

Thing is: I wouldn't send out a Bard to fight dragon. Maybe get the bard to hear my history but not the other way around!Entering thread just to make a pun on one thing:
Bard killed Smaug.

[Traab]

Yeah yeah. Point is thats not a bard. A drunkard playing at a tavern? Thats a bard.

Why base so many interesting music based ideas on a fecking bard!

Music doesn't do anything! Thats why realy stupid based magic is slapped onto the bard.

I have nothing against musical based classes but the BARD?

It just doesn't feel right in my head. How the hell does one learn magic through singing!

Keep in mind that in fantasy there is frequently a distinction made between a BARD and a minstril. As an example, in the Mercedes lackey land of Valdemar, minstrils are exactly what you describe, lute carrying music players who travel from bar to bar scrounging coins for their playing so they can buy food drink and shelter then moving on when they stop being interesting. A Bard on the other hand has a gift. This is basically projective empathy, through music and singing they can make you feel emotions. they can play a rousing battle hymn and make everyone in the crowd want to take up a sword and go to war, they can play Danny Boy and flood the bar in tears. Its a very powerful gift and the biggest distinction between them and minstrels.

There are other worlds where bards and minstrels are two separate things, generally though its a level of skill. A bard tends to be the guy singing in the halls of nobility while a minstril plays at faires and carnivals or inns around the country. All that aside, this is D&D, a place where magic is everywhere, and if they want to define a bard as someone able to cast spells through music, thats their right, as its their world.

[Dimers]

You can take levels in Spellthief to make a sneaky magic-using character. Or you could take levels in Rogue and Wizard. With a generous and hands-on GM, you could even homebrew some sort of prestige class to grant the Rogue/Wizard a similar spell-stealing mechanism. So you can take all the abilities of the Spellthief class without actually using Spellthief. But if you try, it won't come out the same ... similar, but not identical.

Ditto that for Psion/Fighter versus Psychic Warrior. Or Rogue/Fighter versus Swashbuckler. Or Cleric/Fighter versus Paladin.

This doesn't mean that spellthieves, paladins, psychic warriors and swashbucklers aren't independent ideas, just because the class features their classes give them could be replicated somehow with other classes.

A Bard could be approximated with some levels of Sorcerer, Fighter and Rogue (e.g. Nale). That doesn't mean that the idea of "bard" shouldn't exist in D&D. The class serves the purpose of concatenating a few core concepts of historical and mythological superspeakers/supersingers. That's a good thing -- makes it simple to play what you like without taking three base classes and a prestige class, ya know?

Personally I'd prefer the mechanics of the class if there were pathways within it, like the ranger choosing between ranged and two-weapon, or the cleric picking domains. Then you could have a bard that focuses on skills or knowledge or personal combat ability or morale or magic, rather than have one diluted class attempt to cover all those things. Yay for ACFs!

Despite the (debatable) need for ACFs and focusing prestige classes, "bard" is still a class with meaning that fully deserves its place in the PHB. It's an okay execution of a strong concept.

[Heliomance]

To Zen’s mind (and again, Zen please correct me, I am merely trying to interpret civilly) bard’s have supernatural and extrordinary abilities because the game mechanics require them- else the entire class doesn’t make sense. Being able to sing a song that gives bonus’ in combat is an extraordinary ability- else anyone who can sing well enough could do it. BUt it has to be an extraorinary “class feature” to prevent anyone else from singing inspiring songs. A circular chain of logic- to sing an inspiring song you have to be a bard because bards sing inspiring songs.

Uh... what?
To cast a spell you have to be a wizard(/sorcerer/cleric/whatever), because wizards cast spells.
To turn into an animal you have to be a druid, because druids turn into animals.
To fly into a combat enhancing rage you have to be a barbarian, because barbarians fly into combat enhancing rages.
To steal spells from other people you have to be a spellthief, because spellthieves steal spells.

I could keep going. What's your point?

[TheDarkSaint]

I teach music for a living; band, choir and orchestra. I have a lot of students come through my doors and most of them do a passable job making music. Most of them are in the group because their friends are and it's fun to make music.

Some of my students are quite good, performing solos on concerts, auditioning for All State and applying to be music majors in college. Some go one to teach, others give it up for real money and a few actually manage to make a living at performing.


And then I have my super rare students. These kids walk in and can pick up just about any instrument and learn it in a week flat. They just seem to inhale musical knowledge, absorbing music history, theory and playing ability. They flit between drama, music and art, never really deciding on one, happy to take in as much as possible. These kids used to drive me up the wall as they never seemed to commit to the ensemble.

That is, until today when I realized that those kids were my bards. They are not be the best technical players. I have those, kids who can get on a clarinet and blaze through 32nd notes like lightening. But when they play, it's with a pure, rich sound, full of emotion, dynamics and real feeling. They are not the kids who grow up to be Justin or Brittney, but grow up to be Trent Reznor, Adele and other singer/songwriters who move us.

If I was a game designer and I knew what I know about music and the occasional kid it produced, I'd want a mechanic for it. But I don't want a musicmancer as that these kids just don't have the dicipline to sit down and one thing and one thing only and make it their quest. They want to do EVERYTHING, even if it's just a passing thing

[Fhaolan]

Do you even think about how stupid that sounds? Bardic college?

A college for being a bard!

Just make a musicmancer collage!


Again, this is a holdover from older editions of D&D when things worked differently. In the earlier versions of D&D, the levels of classes actually had different names. 1st level Wizard was a 'Prestigitator' or something like that (can't be bothered to look it up right now). Different levels of the Bard class were 'belonging' to different bardic colleges. The term 'college' meant something different in this context. It's not a classroom or building that you go to learn how to be a Bard, it's your rank in a guild/society. Some semi-secret societies like the Freemasons used to use 'college' in this way. Don't know if they still do.

Also, back then you didn't have colleges of magic. The magic-user was the magic-user. Illusionist was a separate class. Also, the AD&D 1st edition version of the bard, the spell-casting was actually religious in nature as it was based on druid spells, not magic-user spells.

Basically the Bard as presented in 3rd edition and 4th edition is a hodge-podge of concepts held over from previous editions with some vain attempt to make them 'unique' by restricting their abilities to just them. The class design hasn't really kept pace with the changes to the system itself, leading the game designers to produce really awful fluff to try to explain it. There was no real reason Bardic Knowledge wasn't a skill check, and there's no real reason why the different forms of spellcasting (incantation, music, runecasting, truenaming, etc.) aren't treated as just variations of magical methodology rather than deserving classes of their own.

I found the original OD&D version of the bard, in Strategic Review Vol 2, Issue 1, back it was the D&D publisher's main magazine. Its preamble on the class pretty much defines why the writer created the class, and what myth/legend/literary archetypes he was basing it on. If you're interested in knowing the *original* reasons why the bard class exists, I can post it here probably. I don't think it's copyright violation, as I would be posting an exerpt for review purposes.

[Petey7]

There is no reason to think that Wizards don't look at Bard spellcasting from time to time, but only in the same sense that they examine Sorcerer spellcasting. Wizards in D&D are commonly portrayed as thinking their magic is the best magic (and they are of the best of the arcane spellcasters), so why would they invest a lot of time in studying something inferior.

Another thing to consider is that in the 3.5 DMG it is stated people with PC classes are supposed to be the elite, above the average person. Most musicians would likely be Commoners or Experts. In other words, no spellcasting. Being able to channel magic through music is a rare ability. It is also stated that bards learn their abilities from other bards.

PHB does mention Bard colleges by the way. They aren't discribed as being like a traditional college, in that book at least. But still, saying a college for Bards being rediculous is like me saying a college for artists is rediculous. Fact is most modern colleges do have fine art degrees; most of those even have music degrees. Virginia Commonwealth University, for example, has a bachelors degree in guitar. Thats right. Guitar. Apparently others disagree with you.

[Silus]

Dervish Dancer Bard (Pathfinder).

Full Attack + Move with a Scimitar = whirling, twirling, dancing bladed death

Your argument is invalid now.

[TheZenMaster]

Once again, for your musicmancer heavy rocker to join a school to learn that stuff is FINE. But unfortunately thats only one part of what bards actually are,

The second part is of a tale telling zorro.

Thats once again a problem. The amalgamation just doesn't work. Either make a musicmncer or a charming swordfighter. They can be combined with multiclassing.


Dervish Dancer Bard (Pathfinder).

Full Attack + Move with a Scimitar = whirling, twirling, dancing bladed death

Your argument is invalid now.

A cool respectable idea. BUT WHY IS THERE MAGIC ATTACHED?

Either make a roguish charming dude or a caster based on music. The forced combination just doesn't work.

Nobody on this thread has a stereotypical bard. Everybody has some unique idea.

[Silus]

Once again, for your musicmancer heavy rocker to join a school to learn that stuff is FINE. But unfortunately thats only one part of what bards actually are,

The second part is of a tale telling zorro.

Thats once again a problem. The amalgamation just doesn't work. Either make a musicmncer or a charming swordfighter. They can be combined with multiclassing.



A cool respectable idea. BUT WHY IS THERE MAGIC ATTACHED?

Either make a roguish charming dude or a caster based on music. The forced combination just doesn't work.

Nobody on this thread has a stereotypical bard. Everybody has some unique idea.

Just because a class HAS magic does not mean they should use it, or use it offensively. I've got a Pathfinder Society Dervish Bard and I plan on taking utility spells over the PEW PEW ones. And it's all about how you fluff the character. For mine, she was part of a gypsy type caravan and picked up theatrical magic during her growing up there (Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound, ect) as opposed to your assumption that her performance generates the magic effects. I plan on playing her like a blend of Legolas (Swordplay) and Esmerelda from Hunchback of Notre Dame (for just about everything else).

Also:



I know magic is powerfull but it does NOT I repeat it does NOT have the powers to warp reality.

H.P. Lovecraft would disagree with you. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Music_of_Erich_Zann)

[Jay R]

[QUOTE]WHY CAN A BARD CAST MAGIC! AAAAAAGHR!

Because Taliesin could, in the Welsh tales of Taliesin.

Because Orpheus could, in the Greek myth of Orpheus.

Because many modern bards could, in books that pre-date D&D. (Adaon in The Chronicles of Prydain, for instance.)


If DD is a universe where singing is magic, why isn't ANYBODY who sings magical.

By the same argument, If D&D is a universe where speech, body movements and material components are magic, why isn't anybody who uses them magical?

Because Bard's magic is magic, not merely song. The fighter can't mimic the wizard and cast fireballs, and for the same reasons, others can't mimic bards and cast bardic spells.


Do you even think about how stupid that sounds? Bardic college?

A college for being a bard!

From wikipedia: "Here the Ó Duibhgeannains set up a bardic college at Kilronan, near Lough Key in northern Roscommon." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peregrine_%C3%93_Duibhgeannain)

Colleges of bards existed - they really did. And I think you are stuck on the modern definition of "college" meaning "university", rather than "group of people who meet for mutual benefit."

Bards aren't a D&D invention like "Warforged". They are portrayed in many medieval and classical stories, often with magical powers and hidden knowledge.

You can argue that you just don't like them, and exclude them from your games. You can argue that the mechanic doesn't work well. But arguing that something that's existed in fantasy literature for hundreds of years somehow doesn't make sense to you, and therefore "shouldn't" exist in D&D, is forgetting that the origins of this game are in simulating fantasy literature.

[TheZenMaster]

Just because a class HAS magic does not mean they should use it, or use it offensively.

And thats why the Wizard is a balanced class. They don't NEED to use the magic. :smallwink:

The class is balanced on having spells.


Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound, ect) as opposed to your assumption that her performance generates the magic effects.

Except thats Levl 1-0 stuff. How you going to justify her shooting lazors?




H.P. Lovecraft would disagree with you. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Music_of_Erich_Zann)

I already took it back. Im sorry.

[Morty]

Nobody on this thread has a stereotypical bard. Everybody has some unique idea.

Maybe that's because classes are mechanical and thematic templates and don't need to conform to stereotypes. People tend to avoid stereotypes, you know.

[The Glyphstone]

Except thats Levl 1-0 stuff. How you going to justify her shooting lazors?
.

What level Bard spell lets them shoot lazors?

You are aware the Bard spell list is different than the Wizard spell list, right? Bards, in core, have a grand total of 4 damage-dealing spells. Shout, Greater Shout, Sound Burst, and Nightmare.

[TheZenMaster]

Maybe that's because classes are mechanical and thematic templates and don't need to conform to stereotypes. People tend to avoid stereotypes, you know.

And the class mechanically and fluffwise shoots itself in the leg with a sawed off shotgun with mechanics that enforce the stereotype.

What does my charming rouge have to do with magic?

NOTHING: Here is some magic anyway.

What does my nihilistic conductor have to do with knowing random crap about bahula city?

NOTHING: Here is Bardik Knowledge anyway.

What does my War chanter have to do with magical spells?

Nothing! Here they are anyway.


What level Bard spell lets them shoot lazors?

Sorry, sound explosions

[Jay R]

Let me give you an example of a real-world bardic knowledge check.

Once upon a time, two people were discussing Joan of Arc. I was keeping my mouth shut, as they both had much more knowledge of history than I do. Then somebody asked who was king of England when Joan was leading armies.

One of the historians started thinking about what else was occurring in Europe then, while the other was tracing royal dynasties in her head.

Meanwhile, having read more Shakespeare than history, I instantly answered, "Henry the Sixth, Part One."

[Silus]

Except thats Levl 1-0 stuff. How you going to justify her shooting lazors?


She's not GOING to be shooting lazors, that's the thing. I'm not building her to be PEW PEW (I'd have gone with a Sorcerer or a Summoner for that), but rather around a theme (that theme being a half-elf gypsy). I'll leave the PEW PEW antics to the classes that can properly do that. Casters run out of spells after all. You're never likely to run out of sword.

[TheZenMaster]

Meanwhile, having read more Shakespeare than history, I instantly answered, "Henry the Sixth, Part One."

Thats not exclusive to the bard.

By that logic EVERYBODY should have bardic lore especially when they aren't adventuring (Nihilistic conductor example)


She's not GOING to be shooting lazors, that's the thing. I'm not building her to be PEW PEW (I'd have gone with a Sorcerer or a Summoner for that), but rather around a theme (that theme being a half-elf gypsy). I'll leave the PEW PEW antics to the classes that can properly do that. Casters run out of spells after all. You're never likely to run out of sword.

Thats an idea that actually might work...Im complaining about the flashy spells mostly.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham:Thread locked for review.