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View Full Version : Mass Poison Use? (D&D 3.5; my players kindly STAY OUT!)



Lonely Tylenol
2012-03-19, 02:43 AM
EDIT: After receiving an awesome suggestion that might not work based on MY lack of intelligence, I present the following basic information:

1) The party is level 4.
2) They have little gold (most of their wealth is in magic items, and I don't know how intent they are on selling them). I suspect the party member who is going to be committing these acts himself has about 600 gold (if the books are on the level).
3) These are the stated intentions of a single party member, who wishes to act behind the backs of his party members. (He's the evil member of the party who is actively trying to conceal the fact that he's evil.) As such, he wants these actions to be committed without the knowledge of the other party.
4) He also expects the party to attack the encampment in full-force in a few days' time, and wants to enact his plans before the party does so themselves.

Because of these facts, his plan, as it is now, needs to go off in a small window of time (enough to travel to the nearest large city about a few hours' travel away, use the rest of his money to buy the poisons, travel back and poison the lot of them before the party attacks directly, but not more) with mostly just the resources the PC has on hand (600 gp, plus a few masterwork items he may be able to sell, plus some magic items he definitely won't).

----------------

ORIGINAL POST:

So, in my campaign, two members of my group, while pursuing the leader of a strike team who cast invisibility and fled when combat turned sour, came across their encampment in a clearing by a creek, which I described, from their perspective, as being fenced off by a spiked wooden wall, with (from the perspective of the trees) about three dozen people, armed and unarmed, plus a series of tents (which they obviously couldn't see into). They elected to head back into the nearby town and alert them of the enemy encampment, so that they could make preparations to strike the encampment in full force, end session.

Here's the kicker:

One of the members in the party (hint: he's the evil one) wants to poison all of them. He's elected to slip an ingestion poison into the pot, so as to poison the whole lot of them in one fell swoop (or at least, those who eat the fish (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080339/quotes)) so that they don't even have to bother with the assault; they'll die more or less on their own. However, he's discouraged by the fact that, in his opinion, in order to poison a single pot with, say, 20 servings worth of stew, he'd need to put 20 doses in the poison (the equivalent of separating the pot out into individual servings and then poisoning each). I don't disagree that a single dose of poison would be diluted, somewhat, by being split along multiple people, but don't think that you would necessarily need 20 doses of a poison to affect 20 people (after, ingesting less than a full dose of poison is still ingesting poison).

The problem is, upon further inspection of the rules (and a number of searches to the effect of "3.5 d&d poison use rules", "3.5 d&d mass poisoning rules", "3.5 d&d poisoning multiple people", and so on ad nauseum), I can't seem to find any rules about poisoning multiple people, or splitting the doses of poison, or mass dosage at all!

Are there any rules for this? Does one dose applied to a 20-serving pot of stew affect everyone the same as a dose into a 1-serving bowl, or is it completely ineffective, or is there some more reasonable middle ground between the two, as per the rules?

Also, if there are no specifics, what's a reasonable houserule that I might use for this situation?

I was thinking something to the effect of the DC reducing by 2 for every power of 2 that the poison is spread out, representative of the dilution from a small dose into a larger serving.

For example, applying a dose of dark reaver powder (Ingestion DC18, 2d6 Con initial, 1d6 Con + 1d6 Str secondary, 300 gp, SRD) would be divided up as follows:

{table=head]
# of doses|# people affected|save DC
1|1|18
1|2|16
1|3-4|14
1|5-8|12
1|9-16|10
1|17-32|8
2|2|18
2|3-4|16
2|5-8|14
2|9-16|12
2|17-32|10
3|3|18
3|4-6|16
3|7-12|14
3|13-26|12[/table]

And so on.

What are your thoughts on this, Playground? Are there any rules for this, or more sensible methods that one can use?

Eisenfavl
2012-03-19, 04:14 AM
My suggestion? Screw figuring out DC's, use taxine (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/al/20041208a). The gradually increasing DC, and the horrific con damage it will have after a bunch of doses, (secondary damage on the 5th dose has an average of 14.5 con damage at DC 23), and what's best, if you can keep doing this it will overcome most DC penalties, reaching instant-kill levels within a week, will essentially remove the need to determine DC's.
Seriously, if you have a long term poisoning murder plan, Taxine is the way to go. Also, your table seems perfectly reasonable, by D&D logic.

Lonely Tylenol
2012-03-19, 04:57 AM
My suggestion? Screw figuring out DC's, use taxine (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/al/20041208a). The gradually increasing DC, and the horrific con damage it will have after a bunch of doses, (secondary damage on the 5th dose has an average of 14.5 con damage at DC 23), and what's best, if you can keep doing this it will overcome most DC penalties, reaching instant-kill levels within a week, will essentially remove the need to determine DC's.
Seriously, if you have a long term poisoning murder plan, Taxine is the way to go. Also, your table seems perfectly reasonable, by D&D logic.

:smallannoyed: I keep forgetting details, don't I?

Sorry, this is entirely my bad...

The party just reached level 4, and has little gold (most of their wealth is in acquired magical items, which they are either wearing or have yet to identify or sell, though they intend to do so in the town where he intends to buy the poisons). I think, at present, he has enough money for, say, six doses of taxine at cost, unless he decides to sell some of his gear.

He is also trying to do this behind the backs of the rest of the party, which means with just his wealth. He could try to steal their money, I suppose, but he wants to do this before the next session, which means I would be NPCing their Spot and Listen checks (and their reactions if they pass during his theft) and, if they fail, just telling the party "you lost most of your new gold", which I won't do.

Though taxine poisoning definitely looks... Interesting. To say the least. I think if he had the time and money to do this, I would definitely just suggest slipping taxine into everybody's food en masse, but this might have to be done on a tighter budget.

EDIT: I edited the original post with the basic information I should have included in it in the first place. I'll tell him about the taxine tomorrow.

Vizzerdrix
2012-03-20, 10:36 AM
The only thing I can think of is getting a Shaper to make a bunch of poison for him on the cheap.

prufock
2012-03-20, 12:39 PM
It really depends on what his goal is in this poisoning. Does he need it to kill them all, or just make them unable to fight, or make them easier to fight?

I'd say you're definitely going to have to ad lib some of this stuff. What skills does he have? Any ranks in survival? He may know some plants that are dangerous to eat - certain berries, leaves, mushrooms, lichens, roots - that while they may not kill you outright, would seriously impact your health. Cassava, ink cap mushrooms, elderberry leaves and twigs all have poisonous properties.

He could instead slip some sort of shrapnel into the stew. This would probably be discovered before it killed anyone, but it should incapacitate some diners as their tongues, gums, palates, throats, and stomachs are impaled by very tiny equivalents of caltrops and needles.

If you want to dilute it, there are no real rules of which I'm aware. The rules state one full dose of poison is just enough for one person, and less than one dose doesn't generally work. Perhaps you could decrease the fortitude DC by 1 for each serving, and halve the damage for each 2^x.

Vizzerdrix
2012-03-20, 01:23 PM
Has your player thought about using disease instead? Same basic idea, but he'd only need to get some infected meat.

Aegis013
2012-03-20, 02:12 PM
Does the player in question have a point in Knowledge: Nature? Or Survival? If so, you could have him roll a check to see if he can find some nightshade, hemlock or other sort of poisonous plant. He would reasonably be able to get his hands on something like a mortar and pestle for cheap, and grind it up into paste or powder.

This would let him produce a good deal of poison (especially if he finds a lot of poisonous plants) for almost no monetary investment. Alternatively he could buy the plants from an apothecary who would likely have some, although they might find it dubious that these dangerous plants are being purchased. (Potential plot hook maybe?)

I don't know if D&D has nightshade and hemlock rules under the poisons. I don't see them in the DMG or Drow of the Underdark, but it would allow him to get a higher number of doses without blowing through his few gold pieces, and it would let you set the DC. (assuming no rules can be found)

It seems like a good plan to me.

the_david
2012-03-20, 02:13 PM
There are rules for stacking poisons in Pathfinder, they might help you work out a system.

Lonely Tylenol
2012-03-20, 06:59 PM
It really depends on what his goal is in this poisoning. Does he need it to kill them all, or just make them unable to fight, or make them easier to fight?

I believe he intends to kill or grievously injure most of them (kill as many as he can). He's going for high-CON damage poisons. I think the plan is for the poison to kill as many people as possible, and for the rest to be so weakened by the poison that, when they do strike at the camp, they will be very easy to fight (due to any remaining ability damage).


I'd say you're definitely going to have to ad lib some of this stuff. What skills does he have? Any ranks in survival? He may know some plants that are dangerous to eat - certain berries, leaves, mushrooms, lichens, roots - that while they may not kill you outright, would seriously impact your health. Cassava, ink cap mushrooms, elderberry leaves and twigs all have poisonous properties.

Unfortunately, he has no ranks in Survival, Knowledge (nature), or Craft (poisonmaking), and only one rank in Craft (alchemy). His Int modifier is +2 (and his Wis +0), so a Survival check would be a basic ability check. Otherwise, it might be easier to employ the Taxine method above.

The other player who tracked the leader to his camp has at least 5 ranks in Survival and Knowledge (nature), but he's explicitly asked to go alone.


He could instead slip some sort of shrapnel into the stew. This would probably be discovered before it killed anyone, but it should incapacitate some diners as their tongues, gums, palates, throats, and stomachs are impaled by very tiny equivalents of caltrops and needles.

He was actually explicit in one thing--he wanted the poisons to have a delayed reaction (which is easy enough for me to ad hoc rule, since they're ingestion poisons), which means that everyone would have finished their serving long before the poisons take effect. Unfortunately, shrapnel would be too immediate (and too nonlethal).


Has your player thought about using disease instead? Same basic idea, but he'd only need to get some infected meat.

I don't think so. It might also be harder to find infected meat, however (as the common-sense solution to bad meat would be to dispose of it), but I guess that hurdle just requires a little ingenuity (and maybe a little dumpster-diving).


Does the player in question have a point in Knowledge: Nature? Or Survival? If so, you could have him roll a check to see if he can find some nightshade, hemlock or other sort of poisonous plant. He would reasonably be able to get his hands on something like a mortar and pestle for cheap, and grind it up into paste or powder.

This would let him produce a good deal of poison (especially if he finds a lot of poisonous plants) for almost no monetary investment. Alternatively he could buy the plants from an apothecary who would likely have some, although they might find it dubious that these dangerous plants are being purchased. (Potential plot hook maybe?)

I wouldn't object to it, but the closest thing he has to a relevant skill is a single rank in Craft (alchemy).

Buying the right plants would work for me as well, but I'm going to leave that up to him to come up with (I don't want to spell it out for him... :smalltongue:)


I don't know if D&D has nightshade and hemlock rules under the poisons. I don't see them in the DMG or Drow of the Underdark, but it would allow him to get a higher number of doses without blowing through his few gold pieces, and it would let you set the DC. (assuming no rules can be found)

Hemlock can be found in the Pathfinder SRD.


There are rules for stacking poisons in Pathfinder, they might help you work out a system.

I think the Pathfinder rule isn't a bad idea; +2 to the DC for every extra dose. From there, I could do the standard division rules per person as well. That would affect the save DCs as such:

{table=head]
# of doses|# people affected|save DC
1|1|18
1|2|16
1|3-4|14
1|5-8|12
1|9-16|10
1|17-32|8
2|1|20
2|2|18
2|3-4|16
2|5-8|14
2|9-16|12
2|17-32|10
3|1|22
3|2|20
3|3-4|18
3|5-8|16
3|9-16|14
3|17-32|12[/table]

Does that look about right?

Akal Saris
2012-03-20, 07:33 PM
Why not suggest going to the local mafia/thieves' guild/black market and making some deals? Surely the thieves guild can think of a discreet service or two that they could use a hand with in return for a few doses of ingested poison strong enough to knock out an owlbear.. :smallbiggrin:

Alternatively, he could hire a L1 psionic guy to cast the L1 power 'psionic minor creation' and have the guy summon a 1ft cube of whatever poison the PC requires (hello 5,000 doses or so), which will last 1 hour. One spell cast by an NPC is probably only 100g or so (with perhaps another 100g to ensure discretion), and the cost of the initial dosage used as a material component.

prufock
2012-03-21, 10:31 AM
Alternatively, he could hire a L1 psionic guy to cast the L1 power 'psionic minor creation' and have the guy summon a 1ft cube of whatever poison the PC requires (hello 5,000 doses or so), which will last 1 hour. One spell cast by an NPC is probably only 100g or so (with perhaps another 100g to ensure discretion), and the cost of the initial dosage used as a material component.

Indeed, the favour is a valuable currency!

To the OP: Have you considered just, you know, not letting it work? I mean, I know you like his plan and want him to succeed, but not all plans are possible. With their limited resources, skills, and time... well, maybe poison just ISN'T a viable option.

DrDeth
2012-03-21, 11:07 AM
Are you sure it’s a good idea to let one PC be evil and work against the wishes of the rest of the party? Especially as he seems to be going off on his own a lot.

Maybe the old rule “No Evils” is a better idea here than going through all this.

Lonely Tylenol
2012-03-21, 07:43 PM
Indeed, the favour is a valuable currency!

To the OP: Have you considered just, you know, not letting it work? I mean, I know you like his plan and want him to succeed, but not all plans are possible. With their limited resources, skills, and time... well, maybe poison just ISN'T a viable option.

I'm going to let him try. Success or failure is entirely contingent on execution.

I just wanted an effective rule for judging how to measure this success or failure, which I didn't have.


Are you sure it’s a good idea to let one PC be evil and work against the wishes of the rest of the party? Especially as he seems to be going off on his own a lot.

Maybe the old rule “No Evils” is a better idea here than going through all this.

I actually have two evil PCs, and the world is not so black-and-white. He's also not the only PC to go off on their own, or to involve themselves in B-plots or even in the main narrative aside from the rest of the party. I try to reward initiative, evil or not, by letting it play itself out, and besides, his plans advance the goals of the rest of the party, just with a different methodology. So I'm not sure where evil factors in, here.

Besides, rewriting characters and campaigns and policing alignments sounds like a lot more work than eyeballing the save DC of diluted poison.