When will saves "should" be rolled secretly... vs. Moment of Perfect Mind

[gomipile]

There are a fair number of times when will saves should be rolled secretly by the DM, such as with many illusions. However, how can you do this vs. a character with Moment of Perfect Mind without giving the player the choice of whether to use her immediate action(and expend a maneuver) to affect the save?

[FMArthur]

Using a maneuver is a conscious effort. If they don't even know about the thing they are confronted with and it isn't directly intruding on their mind, I don't see how they could use its benefit.

There is also debate on whether or not you are considered flat-footed at all times outside of combat, since you're supposed to be flat-footed up until your first turn of combat and it seems arbitrary to only begin being flat-footed when a fight is starting (ie going from 'normal awareness' of being outside an encounter to 'oblivious' for the surprise round and then 'unprepared' for the first normal round until your turn). If you're flat-footed, using immediate actions is impossible to begin with. The flipside is that it makes things like Feather Fall and using save maneuvers against traps impossible out of combat, which seems wrong.

[Grendus]

Either don't use MoPM on Will saves they don't know they're making, or tell them and have them act like they didn't just fail a Will save. It's a tough situation, but if your players are mature it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

[Draz74]

Either don't use MoPM on Will saves they don't know they're making, or tell them and have them act like they didn't just fail a Will save. It's a tough situation, but if your players are mature it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Or, if you're trying to throw them a bone, you could ask them "When I roll Will saves for you secretly, when do you want me to use MoPM?" I'm guessing most of them will say "Whenever possible."

[Elric VIII]

Actually, this begs the question: how would they ever know when to use MoPM? They don't have Spellcraft, so they cannot identify the spell being cast (or the target, for that matter).

A general rule I use when adjudicating maneuver use (especially IHS) is that they are usable in the most epic way possible. In the case of a Will save for an ongoing effect whose initiation is not perceived by the Martial Adept, I would probably have them make a normal will save. Then, I would allow them to use the counter, when they would be able to act next, to shake off the effects. Think of it as similar to when a movie character that unwittingly walks into an illusion overcomes it by persistence/focusing on a higher goal.