Request: Review My Builds

[JamesW]

Hello everyone,

Just wanted to thank everyone in advance that is willing to help out. I am not a power-gamer by any means, but I like the characters I play to be able to participate in every aspect of the game. So, with that in mind I have set up a build for a Tank+companions that I can take to my local club and enjoy a game of 3.5 DnD with.

The first thing you will notice is that the characters are not optimized in any way. I am mainly looking for suggestions that will improve the characters without drastic changes.

Race: Dwarf
Class: Crusader 11 / Knight 4 / Deepstone Sentinal 5

Str: 14
Dex: 12
Con: 16
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 12
(32 Point buy after racial modifiers)

lvl 1: Crusader - Extra Granted Maneuver
lvl 2: Knight
lvl 3: Knight - Stone Power
lvl 4: Knight - +1Str
lvl 5: Knight
lvl 6: Crusader - Leadership (Cleric Below)
lvl 7: Crusader
lvl 8: Crusader - +1Str
lvl 9: Crusader - Wild Cohort (Brown Bear) http://sciborminiatures.com/en_,shop.php?art=851
lvl 10: Crusader
lvl 11-15: Deepstone Sentinal - +1Str, 2 Feats
lvl 16-20: Crusader - +1Str, Feat

So, I'm not sure what to pick up for feats for level 12,15 and 18. I choose Knight for the AOE taunt at level 4 Knight. I figure it can only get better as I level.

Test of Mettle - Swift Action, all enemies within 100ft, Will Save 10+1/2 class level + Cha. I assume this is my total class level. So the DC at level 10 is 16. Not great.. but not bad either considering by then I'll have some items that give + to Cha.

Crusader Questions:
1) Is there a better tanking stance than Iron Guard's Glare? I'll have access up to level 3 stances for my second stance.

2) Also, in order to obtain Deepstone Sentinal one of my stances needs to be stone. Someone told me that stances known and maneuvers known/readied work off of your initiator level and not your class level in Crusader. Is this true? If it is I'll have my third stance at character level 10 and be allowed to take my stone stance later. If not, I'll have to burn my 2nd stance at level 6 and pick up the stone stance then. Or would it be better just to take the stone stance at level 6 and take a higher level stance at 10 if the initiator level is what determines them?


Okay, on to the first cohort. The cleric.

Class: Cleric
Race: Dwarf

Str: 12
Dex: 10
Con: 16
Int: 12
Wis: 16
Cha: 12
(32 point buy after racial adjustments)

lvl 1-18: Cleric

Domains: Protection, Renewal

Game Plan: Shield Other will be the first spell the cleric casts in combat. Cast on the tank. Then the cleric can continue to cast spells on the tank to increase his tanking ability or move into a flanking position for other group members or even tank for the soft party members.

Feats: Ancestral Knowledge(1), Brew Potion(3), Craft Magic Arms and Armor(6), Craft Wondrous Item(9), Forge Ring(12), Not sure what to take for level 15 or 18 yet

A lot of people are going to recommend DMM, the only problem I have with DMM is the amount of feats required to do anything with it. First you have to have the MM feat, then take DMM for that specific MM feat. That sinks pretty much everything into casting a spell. Shield Other already lasts 1 hour which is more than enough for most encounters, and bulls strength and other stuff will not be necessary. The cleric will eventually be making a belt that has coins on it that activate by touch and key word to cast the spell once or twice a day on the wearer of the belt.

I know there are a ton of other spells that my cleric can use and cast. Please recommend anything that you think will be helpful here. I will always use Shield Other though. Splitting the damage will just be too helpful.


The wild cohort will be a Brown bear, the miniature link is above. I can ride it into combat right? I will have mounted combat from Knight 2. Also, what class should I make the bear? Warblade? Also, if I do do that.. can the Bear use his natural weapons to initiate maneuvers?


Again, thanks in advance for any suggestions/help given.

[Toliudar]

Dwarf Crusader

This is a good, flexible chassis. One of the most popular ways for this kind of build to stay involved in combats past the first few levels is through a use of tripping, a reach weapon, maybe size increases.

Check out the 3rd level Devoted Spirit stance "Thicket of Blades", gained through the Martial Stance feat.

Consider making your 'axe' a guisarme - just call it a long-pole axe - and you can make trip attacks with it.

A few of your crusader abilities, and your test of mettle, cue off of charisma. You might look at the Gold Dwarf/Desert Dwarf options to take a penalty to dex instead of Cha. Probably not a big deal, either way. To be honest, I'd just eliminate the knight levels from this mix and focus on getting in opponents' way instead of making them come to you, but you said no major changes.

All of the low-level Stone Dragon stances do in fact suck. If your DM won't waive that requirement, take Stone Bones and reconcile yourself to never using it. You don't get stances until the table on the Crusader class says that you do, but once you get that stance, you can select any that you meet the prerequisites for. In other words, if you're a Knight4/Crusader 7 and take another level in Crusader, you get a third stance. Your initiator level is now 10, and so you can take stances up to 5th level for which you meet any other prerequisites.

Please note that this means that you do NOT have access to 3rd level stances for your 2nd stance, as your initiator level will at that point be 4. Another reason to consider going straight crusader.

Cleric

If you're not going after DMM for the cleric, and you want him to focus on buffing your crusader, you might look at a level of Hierophant at higher levels. You lose casting, but Divine Reach allows the buffing to happen at a distance, and expands the range of buffs available.

If you don't want the cleric to be a strong combatant on his own, the Cloistered (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) variant helps to emphasize this.

Since Shield Other is an hours-long buff, fairly early in your careers it will effectively become an always-on option. Other good low-level buffs might include Protection from [alignment], Bless/Prayer, Magic Vestment, Greater Magic Weapon, Resist Energy...there are a lot. Casting Silence on the crusader will help them deal with (some) casters in melee.

You can indeed take a brown bear wild cohort at level 9, but the hit dice it gains are animal racial hit dice, not class levels. When you are level 20, your mount will have 7 bonus hit dice. Reconciling yourself to losing the occasional bear to area of effect spells, and to the fact that it will become increasingly difficult for him to hit things in combat. Also, finding places to park that thing will occasionally be a challenge. :smallsmile:

Good luck!

[JamesW]

Very good recommendations. I thought about the trip build a good deal.. It just doesn't seem as viable an option with dwarves as it would be with Humans and the extra feats. Especially if I went with gold dwarf and took to the hit to dex. I can see the benefit to increasing my threat range with the builds current ability to turn all threatened areas into difficult terrain though.

I see what you mean about the Wild Cohort as well. Perhaps I'll forego that and pick up some other stuff like Combat Reflexes, and Improved Trip for the later levels.

Thanks again for the input!

[Krotchrot]

Just remember the problem that a lot of the Stone Dragon Stances that affect Terrain, you pretty much get locked down to not moving at all.

Also with the Knight the Test of Mettle ability unfortunately is only Knight Class Levels not your Character Level. Making it not that great of an ability, as it also requires an expenditure of your Knights Challenge. However, you can, like you said, boost your CHA to get a higher DC.

If you really want Knight go for it, but there are some better classes, like more Crusader levels or a 2 level Dip in Deepwarden(Races of Stone) might be nice. Stone Warden the 2nd level ability allows you to add your CON instead of DEX modifier to your AC.

I had a character in a gestalt game that was about the same concept. I would suggest building onto Feats for more Damage or Crowd Control output. A monster may bypass your Challenge, but they can't really bypass the fact that you Tripped them or damaged them. They will focus on you and ignore the fact that you have a bear or cleric helping you out.

[Essence_of_War]

As mentioned, it's hard to mess up a Crusader, I have a couple of recommendations though:

1) I generally find Knight 4 to be highly dubious. The problem is that the DC scales with Knight level (not character level) and so this will be good early on, and virtually worthless to you later. Knight 3 gets you a great class feature that doesn't require more Knight levels to be useful.

2) Knight 3 and the Deepstone Sentinel's stance sort of do the same thing. From a strict optimization perspective, you might consider just picking one or the other. I'm more partial to Knight 3 because DSS requires me to be in an awful Stone Dragon stance rather than the awesome Iron Guard Glare or Thicket of Blades or Aura of Perfect Order.

3) As Toliudar mentioned, to take full advantage of your difficult terrain granting features and Iron Guard's Glare or Thicket of Blades, you really want a reach weapon. Frankly, I think the spiked chain is so good that I'd consider burning a feat on it, but Guisarme + Armor Spikes work well also.

4) There is a crusader handbook in my sig. It has a ton of useful crusader information and suggestions. Check it out! :smallbiggrin:

5) Feats: Crusaders are great at lockdown, so if you can get access to
Improved Trip + Combat Reflexes + Knockdown you'll be very dangerous. Also, I'd try to find a way to get Power Attack for higher levels. Stone Power is great, but it doesn't scale to high levels while Power Attack beautifully.