[3.5]How to purposefully reduce my optimization level

[rmg22893]

I have always been a very high-op player, but I am now playing in a group with all low-op characters, and I feel a bit bad for stealing the spotlight. Problem is, I don't know how to make a low-op character without it being completely devoid of fun. Any tips?

[Circle of Life]

The easiest way short of rewiring the way you think about the game is to take a weak base (Healer, Shadowcaster... Commoner... depending on the group) and optimize it like you would a more powerful class. The end result should be closer in line with the rest of your group, and you can rest easy knowing that you made the best character you could.

Some people find this hard to do though, since you'll always know that you could have made it more mechanically effective with a better base. If you can't get past that, then there's a bigger issue that you have to resolve with playstyle and expectations from the ground up.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Play a character who makes the rest of the party stronger. A Batman Wizard or a party-buffing Bard is probably what you're looking for. I'd probably go Wizard into War Weaver, and then Paragnostic Apostle afterward. Get Spell Focus: Transmutation for Ability Enchancer from the Dragon Compendium if possible, and always focus on spells and abilities that will benefit the entire party.

[Nich_Critic]

That's a good idea. The other option is to take a high powered class, and optimize it for a backseat role. Optimize your cleric for healing and protection, or your wizard for debuffing (probably not control, it's very flashy).

It's still acceptable in low op to be good at something, I think.

[Ceaon]

Play an Adept, Monk, Healer, Samurai or Truenamer and optimize the whack out of it.

[Rejusu]

I have always been a very high-op player, but I am now playing in a group with all low-op characters, and I feel a bit bad for stealing the spotlight. Problem is, I don't know how to make a low-op character without it being completely devoid of fun. Any tips?

Going from that other thread your party is Wizard, Monk, Rogue, Fighter, Druid (you), Warblade (your cohort who should be 2 levels lower than the party but for whatever reason isn't) right?

Really the problem is the other players have taken classes that aren't particularly good (barring the wizard) which means that it's hard to find something that won't upstage them without being rather dull to play. I would recommend Dungeoncrasher fighter, as it's a relatively fun build (you get to smash people into walls) that isn't going to always be the centre of attention.

You could play something like a Factotum. But then you'd go from upstaging the rest of the group in combat to upstaging them out of combat. The Monk, Fighter, and potentially the wizard aren't going to be too bothered about that but the rogue might take umbrage at it when you can sneak around effortlessly opening locks and disabling traps far better than they ever could.

You're best off trying to play something though that benefits the rest of the group without taking all the glory. To that end a buffer like a Bard might be viable.

At the very least though, you should lose that cohort. Having essentially two characters (especially when you're not taking the level penalty) alone raises your optimization level a lot higher than it should be.


Play an Adept, Monk, Healer, Samurai or Truenamer and optimize the whack out of it.

OP wants something that's still fun. A one-trick-pony like a fear optimised samurai is not fun.

[rmg22893]

Going from that other thread your party is Wizard, Monk, Rogue, Fighter, Druid (you), Warblade (your cohort who should be 2 levels lower than the party but for whatever reason isn't) right?

Really the problem is the other players have taken classes that aren't particularly good (barring the wizard) which means that it's hard to find something that won't upstage them without being rather dull to play. I would recommend Dungeoncrasher fighter, as it's a relatively fun build (you get to smash people into walls) that isn't going to always be the centre of attention.

You could play something like a Factotum. But then you'd go from upstaging the rest of the group in combat to upstaging them out of combat. The Monk, Fighter, and potentially the wizard aren't going to be too bothered about that but the rogue might take umbrage at it when you can sneak around effortlessly opening locks and disabling traps far better than they ever could.

You're best off trying to play something though that benefits the rest of the group without taking all the glory. To that end a buffer like a Bard might be viable.

At the very least though, you should lose that cohort. Having essentially two characters (especially when you're not taking the level penalty) alone raises your optimization level a lot higher than it should be.



OP wants something that's still fun. A one-trick-pony like a fear optimised samurai is not fun.

The issue is that every conceivable role in the party has been filled. We have a cleric (wizard underling), a bard (monk underling), myself, the catch-all druid, and the rogue and fighter. I can't really create a character with any interesting concept without stepping on someone's toes. If I intentionally make the character crappy, I end up being redundant. If I create it well, I overshadow them. So I don't know what to do.

[Soranar]

I'd second the optimize a terrible class approach.

And if you really want to make a statement, do it with Vow of Poverty.

I had fun times with my VoP ninja.

A damage dealer won't overshadow everyone else and you'll still have something to do.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Play a character who makes the rest of the party stronger. A Batman Wizard or a party-buffing Bard is probably what you're looking for. I'd probably go Wizard into War Weaver, and then Paragnostic Apostle afterward. Get Spell Focus: Transmutation for Ability Enchancer from the Dragon Compendium if possible, and always focus on spells and abilities that will benefit the entire party.

That's GOD, not Batman. Batman is entirely self-sufficient, GOD pretends to make the other guys win by hitting the enemy giant with Ray of Enfeeblement, the enemy spellcaster with Feeblemind, the party rogue and fighter with Haste, and other such stuff.

Anyway, yeah, play VoP rogue or somesuch.

[Gavinfoxx]

Play an Expert.

No, really.

Play an Expert. Optimize all you want -- you are still an Expert.

[rmg22893]

That's GOD, not Batman. Batman is entirely self-sufficient, GOD pretends to make the other guys win by hitting the enemy giant with Ray of Enfeeblement, the enemy spellcaster with Feeblemind, the party rogue and fighter with Haste, and other such stuff.

Anyway, yeah, play VoP rogue or somesuch.

Unfortunately, our rogue is new to 3.5 and D&D in general, so I'd probably overshadow him even with VoP. So that's out of the question.

[Rejusu]

The issue is that every conceivable role in the party has been filled. We have a cleric (wizard underling), a bard (monk underling), myself, the catch-all druid, and the rogue and fighter. I can't really create a character with any interesting concept without stepping on someone's toes. If I intentionally make the character crappy, I end up being redundant. If I create it well, I overshadow them. So I don't know what to do.

Why does everyone in your party have a cohort...

The problem here isn't that all the roles in the party have been filled. It's that your DM has let everyone have two characters so that there isn't any roles left to fill. With that said I think you're out of options, short of convincing your DM to get rid of all the unnecessary extras. Your DM (and I know he might read this) also needs to learn that leadership nets you a cohort at ECL-2. Giving cohorts at the same ECL at the party is essentially just giving everyone an extra character to play.

Though.... there is one thing you could do. Play an artisan. You can adjust your power level through magic items and benefit the group by crafting them stuff and identifying loot.

[Feralventas]

Play an Expert.

No, really.

Play an Expert. Optimize all you want -- you are still an Expert.

Any 10 skills as class skills. Expert's actually pretty potent because of it.

Iaijutsu for damage.
UMD for utility

Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Handle Animal, Disguise, and two others of your choice, presumably Craft and Profession.

Expert ain't even MAD bro.

[rmg22893]

Why does everyone in your party have a cohort...

The problem here isn't that all the roles in the party have been filled. It's that your DM has let everyone have two characters so that there isn't any roles left to fill. With that said I think you're out of options, short of convincing your DM to get rid of all the unnecessary extras. Your DM (and I know he might read this) also needs to learn that leadership nets you a cohort at ECL-2. Giving cohorts at the same ECL at the party is essentially just giving everyone an extra character to play.

Though.... there is one thing you could do. Play an artisan. You can adjust your power level through magic items and benefit the group by crafting them stuff and identifying loot.

He knew that about leadership; he homebrewed it otherwise. We have a mechanic that allows players to have multiple characters in case of death. You have characters that are each two levels below the previous one. So I have a level 10 character, and level 8/6/4/2 characters for backup in case of death/incapacitation. The leadership one is a bonus.

[Heliomance]

Optimise your character. Play deliberately weakly - don't use the most effective spells, pretend your attack bonus is lower than it is, etc. Then at an appropriate moment (preferably when on the verge of a TPK or similar calamity), declare that you are not left handed, pull out all the stops, and save the day.

[Clawhound]

You can (and must) share a role with someone. That's the reality.

Having complementary role can be quite fun. Someone sets them up, and someone else knocks them down, so to speak. Is there a way for you to do that? Be like someone enough to share a role, but unlike enough to create fun possibilities?

Another way to play the game is to change your character's point of view. "Never throw a big spell on round 1," could be a philosophy. "When it's needed, I'll know it," the wizard will say. That way, you enforce your party doing good stuff, but when you act, you act decisively.

Look at it this way. You already know how to optimize the things that you know. Can you optimize things that nobody uses and make them useful? Take those really obscure and highly questionable prestige classes, and explore what you can do with them.

The trick here is that *you* make the challenge.

[Tvtyrant]

Play a White Raven Crusader who focuses on giving other people extra actions/buffs in combat.

[rmg22893]

You can (and must) share a role with someone. That's the reality.

Having complementary role can be quite fun. Someone sets them up, and someone else knocks them down, so to speak. Is there a way for you to do that? Be like someone enough to share a role, but unlike enough to create fun possibilities?

Another way to play the game is to change your character's point of view. "Never throw a big spell on round 1," could be a philosophy. "When it's needed, I'll know it," the wizard will say. That way, you enforce your party doing good stuff, but when you act, you act decisively.

Look at it this way. You already know how to optimize the things that you know. Can you optimize things that nobody uses and make them useful? Take those really obscure and highly questionable prestige classes, and explore what you can do with them.

The trick here is that *you* make the challenge.

The problem is that the disparity between my optimization skills and their optimization skills is so great that me making a character even remotely similar to theirs would make them feel useless.

[Brock Samson]

Another possible idea: play a class with lots of skills (Rogue/Beguiler/Factotum) and focus on things your other rogue-ly characters haven't (or wouldn't mind doubles of). After that then try to optimize your combat ability as you still shouldn't over-shadow, look for the sweet-spot.

Because everyone likes the guy who has crazy diplomacy/bluff/forgery/glibness and convinces the king that YES in fact you DID save him from that one dragon that one time.

[Gavinfoxx]

The problem is that the disparity between my optimization skills and their optimization skills is so great that me making a character even remotely similar to theirs would make them feel useless.

So restrict yourself, make it hard mode for you.

[Gavinfoxx]

The problem is that the disparity between my optimization skills and their optimization skills is so great that me making a character even remotely similar to theirs would make them feel useless.

So restrict yourself, make it hard mode for you.

[Particle_Man]

Is there any character that you thought was stylish but too low powered to actually play? Can you "optimize" for style rather than power?

Maybe an NG incarnate that goes heavily on "Being Good" and all? They are said to be fairly weak, but can be fairly fun too.

Or you could take a closer look at what makes a game fun for you. Are there other ways to have fun that would also be fun for your fellow players?

Maybe weird race/class combos, like the half-orc evoker wizard?

[Telonius]

Have you considered Warlock? Depending on what the Rogue has focused on for skills, you could complement him nicely, while serving in the (little-used) "archer" role. Not as in shooting actual arrows, but as in sniping off people from range. They can make interesting status-dealers and debuffers, and at higher levels they can even take on the role of item-crafters (without the Tier 1-ness of the Artificer).

EDIT: And I know it will be like fingernails on the chalkboard, but pretend that Hellfire does not exist.

[dextercorvia]

The problem is that the disparity between my optimization skills and their optimization skills is so great that me making a character even remotely similar to theirs would make them feel useless.

Play a marshal. Seriously. Optimize until your heart is content, and if you do create something awesome, it will only make the whole party better. In the mean time, it doesn't overshadow anyone's role.

[Duke of URL]

Yeah, I'd go for a true "5th wheel" type of approach. Some of the real buff-oriented classes like Marshal, Bard, or Dragon Shaman can really help out a party while not being a spotlight stealer. (Though try to be good at at least one thing on your own.)

To avoid the problems of over-optimizing, put simple limits on yourself -- avoid multiclassing or certain (and certainly too many!) prestige classes, pick feats that make your party-aiding features stronger, and so forth.

Think "character" first -- design a character concept that will best meet your aims of contributing without over-shadowing, such as helping the party out with buffs/auras/etc., then optimize to that concept rather than to raw power.

[rmg22893]

I think the general consensus that we have come to is that there are too many characters. So I'll just be sticking with my single character. Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone.

[sol_kanar]

Optimise your character. Play deliberately weakly - don't use the most effective spells, pretend your attack bonus is lower than it is, etc. Then at an appropriate moment (preferably when on the verge of a TPK or similar calamity), declare that you are not left handed, pull out all the stops, and save the day.

I second this, for great justice and Inigo Montoya's memory.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

The issue is that every conceivable role in the party has been filled. We have a cleric (wizard underling), a bard (monk underling), myself, the catch-all druid, and the rogue and fighter. I can't really create a character with any interesting concept without stepping on someone's toes. If I intentionally make the character crappy, I end up being redundant. If I create it well, I overshadow them. So I don't know what to do.

Try a Improved Trip build Fighter, then. You'll give support, and still be effective.

[Garwain]

Indeed some kind of support role so that your help is valuable but not "spotlightstealing":
- a debuffer (hexblade? throw around curses)
- a controller (conjurer/master specialist? throw around fogs, walls, teleports and summons)
- a tripper build (warblade/blood blade? throw ranged trip attacks)

[sonofzeal]

I've been in the same situation for years. Here's a few things I've tried:

- Voluntarily avoid all core content. No Humans, no Power Attack, no Weapon Finesse, no Mirror Image / Alter Self / Polymorph / Solid Fog / Gate / Wish / Shapechange.... yeah, whatever you're playing, banning Core can hurt.

- Self-limit to Adept spell slots. I played a Cleric like this, and it worked pretty well. I was about on par with the Fighter/Barbarian.

- Low-Tier classes. Healer, Truenamer, etc.

- Optimize for something other than effectiveness. One group mentioned they didn't have a scout, so I optimized for Spot, eventually settling on a Dragonfire Adept with half a dozen Draconic feats, since one of them gives +1 spot/listen for every Draconic feat you have. This left no room for Entangling Exhalation or metabreath, but that was part of the point in the first place.

[Sutremaine]

- Voluntarily avoid all core content.
How much other stuff does that cut off? Power Attack is a preresquisite for lots of non-core feats...

[sonofzeal]

How much other stuff does that cut off? Power Attack is a preresquisite for lots of non-core feats...
Eeeeeyup. It's tough. But fun, since you get exposed to lesser-used options outside of Core. I played a Sorc variant using this, and ended up with all kinds of wacky feats and spells that I'd never heard of before. Very entertaining.

[Clawhound]

The problem is that the disparity between my optimization skills and their optimization skills is so great that me making a character even remotely similar to theirs would make them feel useless.

In golf, there's the Handicap. That's an adjustment between a poor and a good player. It helps keep the game even.

So, what would act as a handicap for you? These are just rules set up to limit yourself so that you build more evenly. Single-class 6 only with no prestige classes? Only use PHB 1, dwarves, and the Races of Stone sourcebook? Only cast spells beginning with the letter C? Only use the worst-listed feats and spells? Never exceed anyone else's To Hit bonus?

The rules, and the challenges, are exactly what you set them up to be.

It's OK to show up someone else in the same role, as long as you do it in a different way. A transmuter plays different than a blaster, for example. You might show up the other player, but you've also made sure that he looks good blasting while you can't blast at all. An archer fighter does not collide with a two-handed fighter.