Most versatile tier 3 class

[Harry]

In your opinion what is the most versatile tier 3 class? I think it is the beguiler

[NNescio]

In your opinion what is the most versatile tier 3 class? I think it is the beguiler

Factotum. That's his shtick, and the class name itself literally means "do-everything".

[ngilop]

Id vote for bard myself


the ultimate versatility class ever... plus they sing.

[Aegis013]

Factotum. That's his shtick, and the class name itself literally means "do-everything".

Scruffy says "Second."

[HunterOfJello]

Factotum is definitely it

Factotum + Chameleon will get some pretty insane versatility. (That would come at the cost of power and possibly usefulness though.)

~

Binder might come in second place. They change per day though, so they might not really count at all.

[Rossebay]

Factotum. 100%.

Add in Chameleon, and you never run out of things to do.

Side Note: Why does Chameleon have class skills if they're all class skills?

[blackspeeker]

I would say binder is my top pick, since you can swap features daily and again later that day with a feat. Then again I have never seen a factotum in action, but I'm familiar enough with their shtick.

[Bard for Kicks]

Factotums. Then, bards.

[HunterOfJello]

Side Note: Why does Chameleon have class skills if they're all class skills?

Good question!

I was very confused about this same issue a while back and looked up the full info on it.

The Able Learner feat says:

Benefit: All skill ranks cost 1 skill point for you to purchase, even if the skill is cross-class for you. The maximum number of ranks you can purchase in a cross-class skill remains the same.

So, if you have Able Learner, then no matter what skill you choose to put a point into, it only costs 1 skill point (compared to the normal 2 skill points for cross-class skills).

Now, if you remember the last part of the Classes section of the PHB that no one reads:


Skills: If a skill is a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, then character level determines a skill’s maximum rank. (The maximum rank for a class skill is 3 + character level.)
If a skill is not a class skill for any of a multiclass character’s classes, the maximum rank for that skill is one-half the maximum for a class skill.

The maximum amount of ranks that you can put in a skill is 3 + character level for any class skills in your current class and the class skills from all of your previous classes.

~

In conclusion, the reason that Chameleon has class skills, yet also requires the feat Able Learner, is to determine the maximum number of ranks that you can put into each skill. It will only cost 1 point per class skill for class and cross-class skills (since you have the feat), but you will not be able to put maximum ranks in all of those skills.

For example: If you take Rogue 5/Chameleon 1, you will have tons of different class skills, but you will not have Autohypnosis as a class skill. If you want to put points into Autohypnosis, they will only cost 1 point per rank, but you cannot put a full 9 points into Autohypnosis because you do not and never had it as a class skill.


(Note: If you go Factotum/Chameleon this isn't an issue, but if you got Bard or Rogue/Chameleon, it will be an issue.)

[Rossebay]

Good question!

I was very confused about this same issue a while back and looked up the full info on it.

The Able Learner feat says:


So, if you have Able Learner, then no matter what skill you choose to put a point into, it only costs 1 skill point (compared to the normal 2 skill points for cross-class skills).

Now, if you remember the last part of the Classes section of the PHB that no one reads:



The maximum amount of ranks that you can put in a skill is 3 + character level for any class skills in your current class and the class skills from all of your previous classes.

~

In conclusion, the reason that Chameleon has class skills, yet also requires the feat Able Learner, is to determine the maximum number of ranks that you can put into each skill. It will only cost 1 point per class skill for class and cross-class skills (since you have the feat), but you will not be able to put maximum ranks in all of those skills.

For example: If you take Rogue 5/Chameleon 1, you will have tons of different class skills, but you will not have Autohypnosis as a class skill. If you want to put points into Autohypnosis, they will only cost 1 point per rank, but you cannot put a full 9 points into Autohypnosis because you do not and never had it as a class skill.


(Note: If you go Factotum/Chameleon this isn't an issue, but if you got Bard or Rogue/Chameleon, it will be an issue.)

Aaahh. Alright, that makes sense.

Thanks!

[Grendus]

With the right ACF's, Bard wins. He gets more spells per day and with Jack of All Trades and Bardic Knack he has a less powerful but repeatable version of the Factotums' best trick. Bard can fight as well as Factotum via Snowflake Wardance, he can get 9th level spells via Sublime Chord, and he brings one of the best damaging buffs in the game via Dragonfire Inspiration. Factotum is a great class, but Bard has it beat with his splat support.

[Big Fau]

With the right ACF's, Bard wins. He gets more spells per day and with Jack of All Trades and Bardic Knack he has a less powerful but repeatable version of the Factotums' best trick. Bard can fight as well as Factotum via Snowflake Wardance, he can get 9th level spells via Sublime Chord, and he brings one of the best damaging buffs in the game via Dragonfire Inspiration. Factotum is a great class, but Bard has it beat with his splat support.

I'd discount PrCs and ACFs entirely, as the Factotum has no direct support outside of a single feat (Chameleon doesn't really count as a Factotum-dedicated PrC either, seeing as it was printed first).

As far as spell selection goes, the Bardic spell list is severely lacking. The Factotum may be heavily limited, but those few spells/day really do pull their weight. The Bard does have several really good spells, but most of the Bard-exclusive spells aren't that powerful.

Snowflake Wardance doesn't really compare to the Factotum's Iajutsu Focus (DFI does, but it takes more effort to max that out than it does to boost a skill check). The Bardic Knack ACF+Jack of All Trades also doesn't allow untrained Skill Checks, and you usually only need one daily use of the random skills no one puts ranks into (Appraise, for example).


The Bard does have more splat support, but the Factotum is more or less on par with it.

[Darth_Versity]

The Beguiler. While i'm not sure if it is more versatile than the Factotum, I'd almost certainly say its better than the Bard.

[l)arkzer0]

Scruffy says "Second."

"I've never seen you before."

I have a particular fondness for bards right now, but I tell you factotums are awesome, too.

Melee/ranged combat wise bards are better in groups while factotums are better solo (or in assassination attempts with high INT and a bunch of feats in Font of Inspiration). Although a bardblade is pretty hardcore in combat either way, but almost no spellcasting. Personally I like to use perform (oratory) like a hockey announcer for combat.

Casting-wise it's a toss up, I think. Bards get a ton more spells per day at about the same level as the factotum, but factotums don't have spells known and can draw from the wizard spell list. Main advantage for bards is they actually have a spell list and can use wands reliabily.

Skills... has to go to the factotum. The ability to add your factotum level to any skill check is ridiculous, and inspire competence doesn't even come close in my opinion. In addition to that, they get all the skills.

[Bloodgruve]

Most versatile, my vote goes to Factotum as well. If you plan your spells right you are sitting pretty good. Adding your level to skills once per day is the kicker. My Factotum/Swordsage has 1 rank in most every skill and concentrates on a few, this has gotten my group through a lot of things. Throw Iaijutsu focus on and I'm consistently +6d6 to each attack at lvl 10 even with twf and iterative attacks. Giving Flat Footed is tricky sometimes but I have a lot of tricks to get there.

Bard is a close second on my list. Bard X/Warblade 1 is very good. I'm dieing to try DFI Bard/Totemist 2 also.

GL
Blood~

[Person_Man]

I'm going to be contrarian and say that having access to a wide variety of Skills (and by extension, using Skill focused classes like the Factotum or Bard) are not that important or particularly versatile at mid-high levels, because they can be easily buffed or replaced by a variety of magic items, spells, powers, and other class abilities.

For example, social Skills (Diplomacy, Intimidate, Bluff) can be replaced by Charm Person or Suggestion or Dominate. Hide can be replaced by Invisibility. Move Silently by Silence. Disable Device & Search by a renewable Summons. Disguise by Disguise or Alter Self. Jump, Climb, and Balance by flight. Tumble via any of the dozens of other ways to avoid attacks of opportunity. UMD is great at mid levels (once you can afford some wands) for access to low level spells. But it can largely be replaced by 1 Feat (Arcane Schooling or Magic Device Attunement), and most Cha based builds can invest in it cross class and hit the fixed DC 20 check needed to activate wands reliably by mid levels. Listen and Spot are probably the most commonly used and important Skills (because if you fail a Listen or Spot check, you don't participate in the Surprise round). But like all of the above, by mid levels they can be affordably buffed by magic items. The other Skills are highly situational or build specific.

Now, there are some situations where Skills are vastly superior to the workarounds. For example, Hide is clearly superior to Invisibility if your enemy has True Seeing. But if your DM has decided to thwart one of your tactics, he can do that many ways. In this instance, if he's decided that you can't avoid detection for a particular encounter, he can just give his enemies high Spot checks. And if Skills are really that important to you, you can always take a 1 level dip into a Skill Monkey class just to add them to your list. (And I don't consider a Factotum 1/Something Else 19 a Factotum build).

So that's my long winded way of saying that I think that, at mid to high levels when Skills become less important, other Tier 3 classes (Incarnate, Binder, Beguiler, etc) are more versatile then the Factotum or the Bard.

[Talionis]

I'm going to throw out there the Dread Necromancer. Its a caster with a limited list of spells, but being a summoner allows you to always have a large swiss army knife of possible minions for every occasion. The weakness of your minions being undead can be minimized.

There are a lot of good fair, fun, balanced classes in Tier 3.

[Suddo]

So the versatile 3rd tier classes are: Binder, Factotum, Bard and someone said Beguiler.

Bard with ACF can content with Factotum for a lot of things but in the end if you need raw versitility Factotum wins. Disable Device, Use Psionic Device and Auto-hypnosis are all skills Bards don't get.
Bard how ever is a better over all support character.
Binder I haven't played much but seems like it is slightly worse as a skillmonkey but due to the ability to gain odd Class Features on a daily basis and ability in Combat Binders are a contender. Binders should be noted as High versitility but not all at the same time.
Beguilers are cool. The are probably up there but some notes. Though they have a better list than Bards they don't sing/dance so they are in the end worse support. On the other side they do have a better skill list and awesome spells. Though often at high levels you'd prefer +3 to hit and/or +3d6 damage over illusion spells sense many creatures are immune to said spells.
Oh Incarnates are probably up there too. I've been meaning to play some Incarnum but haven't yet. Right now they also see high contenders.

My personal choice is Factotum as most "versatile class." I wonder if a Factotum 8 / Binder 12 would be fun. Hmmm...

[Flickerdart]

If you're throwing in PrC support, Beguiler still wins because of Rainbow Servant. You can cast 7 spells per day? I can spontaneously cast from the Cleric list. Good day to you, sir.

[Slipperychicken]

If you're throwing in PrC support, Beguiler still wins because of Rainbow Servant. You can cast 7 spells per day? I can spontaneously cast from the Cleric list. Good day to you, sir.

How does the Beguiler learn the spells once she gets access to them?

[Krotchrot]

Rainbow Servant gives your spellcasting class All Cleric Spells Known. You just wake up in an epiphany knowing them all. Enjoy winning.

+1 for Beguiler I love that class!

[gomipile]

How does the Beguiler learn the spells once she gets access to them?

Beguilers (and Warmages) know their entire spell list. Rainbow Servant adds the entire Cleric list to a character's spell list. Ergo, the Beguiler with Rainbow Servant now knows the entire Cleric list.

[Bloodgruve]

How does the Beguiler learn the spells once she gets access to them?

I believe,

Wizards 'know' a spell if they've copied into their spell book.

Bards/Sorc's 'know' a spell if they've chosen it.

Clerics/Druids 'know' a spell if its on their spell list and are high enough level.

Beguiler/Warmage/Dread Necro 'know' a spell if its on their spell list and are high enogh level

This is where Versatile Spellcaster comes in handy ;) Wizard1 + Archivist1 + Spontaneous Caster + Versatile Spell Caster feat + good Spellcraft gives you the ability to 'know' and cast most spells in the game.

AFAIK

Blood~

[Draz74]

I'd discount PrCs and ACFs entirely, as the Factotum has no direct support outside of a single feat (Chameleon doesn't really count as a Factotum-dedicated PrC either, seeing as it was printed first).
I can see the argument for ignoring PrCs, but ACFs are certainly part of a class. Saying "Factotum is more versatile than Bard because we're ignoring the Bard's ACFs" is like saying "Cleric is more versatile than Wizard because we're ignoring the Wizard's splatbook spells."


As far as spell selection goes, the Bardic spell list is severely lacking. The Factotum may be heavily limited, but those few spells/day really do pull their weight. The Bard does have several really good spells, but most of the Bard-exclusive spells aren't that powerful.
Core only, maybe. In splatbooks, the Bard spell list is quite excellent.


Snowflake Wardance doesn't really compare to the Factotum's Iajutsu Focus (DFI does, but it takes more effort to max that out than it does to boost a skill check).
This is true. However, if you have the right allies, then DFI becomes far, far MORE of a damage boost than IF.

The Bardic Knack ACF+Jack of All Trades also doesn't allow untrained Skill Checks, and you usually only need one daily use of the random skills no one puts ranks into (Appraise, for example).

Skills... has to go to the factotum. The ability to add your factotum level to any skill check is ridiculous, and inspire competence doesn't even come close in my opinion. In addition to that, they get all the skills.
Well, ok. Several things here.

First, by strict RAW, Jack of All Trades is strictly USELESS. It does absolutely nothing. Since this was clearly not the intent, most people assume that it lets you make skill checks untrained. This is a "Monks are proficient with unarmed strikes" level of houserule (aka DUH).

Second, even with this houserule, I still consider JoaT to be underpowered. If I'm making a skill-focused Bard, I'll spend my feat on something else more useful, then buy one rank (possibly cross-class) in any trained-only skills that I care about. So the JoaT argument doesn't end up mattering, and we can compare Bardic Knack to Cunning Knowledge directly.

Third, if you're trying to compare the two classes' skillful abilities, then Bardic Knowledge isn't really the ability that you should be focusing on for the bard. Rather, the Improvisation spell is the Bard's real "big guns" in skill use (at higher levels). And I think that pulls Bards ahead of Factotums on this front.


Casting-wise it's a toss up, I think. Bards get a ton more spells per day at about the same level as the factotum, but factotums don't have spells known and can draw from the wizard spell list. Main advantage for bards is they actually have a spell list and can use wands reliabily.
Eh, I think Bard wins overall here. A bunch of Level 1-5 spells strikes me as more powerful than a single Level 7 spell.


The Bard does have more splat support, but the Factotum is more or less on par with it.

I love the Factotum, but I think the Bard beats it out unless (a) Font of Inspiration is allowed and (b) Sublime Chord is not allowed.

[Cicciograna]

My money is on Factotums and Incarnates.

[Harry]

Why are people saying that bard/sublime chord and factotum/Chameleon are the winners when beguiler dread necromancer and warmage could go in to rainbow servant and get the cleric spell list ? Isn't the cleric spell list the reason clerics are tier 1?

[Siosilvar]

Why are people saying that bard/sublime chord and factotum/Chameleon are the winners when beguiler dread necromancer and warmage could go in to rainbow servant and get the cleric spell list ? Isn't the cleric spell list the reason clerics are tier 1?

Prestige classes are not base classes and they never will be (short of homebrew). The tier system does not include prestige classes in its analysis, since there are so many prestige classes of varying quality.

[Bloodgruve]

If the clerics spell list and ability to use it makes clerics T1 then gaining that ability would effectively turn a T3 into a T1. Now if you wanted to find a loop hole and gain T1ness with a T3 then go for RS. Another way to break it is to use the feats Magical Training and Versatile Spellcaster on a Beguiler chassis and you can cast your spellbook spontaneously. This has been debated but as a player and DM I argue it works ;) And it works prior to level 16.

GL
Blood~

[Tvtyrant]

Prestige classes are not base classes and they never will be (short of homebrew). The tier system does not include prestige classes in its analysis, since there are so many prestige classes of varying quality.

...That is his point exactly. The comparison is between a base class with a prestige class and a base class on its own. A Factotum vs. a Beguiler is not the same as a Factotum/Chameleon vs. a Beguiler/Rainbow Servant.

So when people throw in Factotum/Chameleon they have to accept Beguiler/Rainbow Servant or it is not a real comparison. A Factotum by itself is not more versatile than a Beguiler IMO.

And if we were accepting prestige classes, I would argue for Wildshape Ranger/Planar Shepard.

[Harry]

...That is his point exactly. The comparison is between a base class with a prestige class and a base class on its own. A Factotum vs. a Beguiler is not the same as a Factotum/Chameleon vs. a Beguiler/Rainbow Servant.

So when people throw in Factotum/Chameleon they have to accept Beguiler/Rainbow Servant or it is not a real comparison. A Factotum by itself is not more versatile than a Beguiler IMO.

And if we were accepting prestige classes, I would argue for Wildshape Ranger/Planar Shepard.

Thank you:smallsmile:

[Tvtyrant]

Thank you:smallsmile:

Welkies ^^

[Tvtyrant]

Thank you:smallsmile:

You are very welcome! The board keeps eating my posts....

Also, if I was going to pick a single most versatile tier 3, it would probably be an Incarnate. They can change their skill set rapidly, gain entirely new powers everyday, and are effective in every situation.

[nedz]

If you're throwing in PrC support, Beguiler still wins because of Rainbow Servant. You can cast 7 spells per day? I can spontaneously cast from the Cleric list. Good day to you, sir.

Yes but this character is now T1 (or possibly T0)


Why are people saying that bard/sublime chord and factotum/Chameleon are the winners when beguiler dread necromancer and warmage could go in to rainbow servant and get the cleric spell list ? Isn't the cleric spell list the reason clerics are tier 1?

These are also now higher than T3

Its hard to define the tiers of PrCs upfront because so much depends upon the base class(es) and other details of the build. Its not quite so hard to look at the result and determine which tier the build the character has actually become.
For example a Sorceror/Rainbow Servant is still T2 because all they have changed is the pool they can draw their spells known from.

[Snowbluff]

Snowflake Wardance doesn't really compare to the Factotum's Iajutsu Focus (DFI does, but it takes more effort to max that out than it does to boost a skill check). The Bardic Knack ACF+Jack of All Trades also doesn't allow untrained Skill Checks, and you usually only need one daily use of the random skills no one puts ranks into (Appraise, for example).


The Bard does have more splat support, but the Factotum is more or less on par with it.

... which is why neither of these classes can be considered the most versatile for those reasons. IF is something ANYONE can have in one feat (or zero, if you cross class it), and Bardic Music/Snowflake Wardance is easily replicated by many other options.

Skill Knowledge, Item Familiar if you want to 'break it'.

Anyone who owns a Lute and has some Perform Ranks can do bardic Music. IIRC Song of the White Raven can be used to completely circumvent the class. The same with Heartfire Fanner.

Things like Bardic Knowledge/Knack and Inspiration Point help, but Beguiler starts at the ceiling and can be taught the Wish spell. Though, to be fair, anyone can cast Ninth level spells with enough feats.

TL;DR You aren't more versatile if another class can replicate your features in your sleep.

[HunterOfJello]

Why are people saying that bard/sublime chord and factotum/Chameleon are the winners when beguiler dread necromancer and warmage could go in to rainbow servant and get the cleric spell list ? Isn't the cleric spell list the reason clerics are tier 1?


Including entries into the Randbow Servant PrC puts any of those spontaneous casters into Tier 1 and above status. The original question was which Tier 3 class is the most versatile. The exact confines of the question were not extremely specific, but I think we can ignore extreme optimization to the classes through PrCs when considering which class is the most versatile.

I think using the Bard PrCs is valid for bards, and using a class like Chameleon is valid for Factotums since it is a very popular build. These builds are commonly accepted by DMs and continue the normal progression of those classes. They may improve the appropriate Tier evaluation of the classes, but they are widely considered common and appropriate.

However, adding in a PrC like Rainbow Servant to one of the spontaneous casters, Ur-Priest to anything, or Planar Shephard to a Wildshape ranger quite obviously puts the classes far out of the Tier 3 range and is against the purpose of the discussion. These throw Tier 3 classes into the Tier 1 or Tier 0 range. They are quite obviously far out of the range and implied purpose of the discussion. They are the answer to the question, "What is the maximum optimization possible for a character that starts with a T3 class?" not "Which T3 class is the most versatile?".

~

I'm now reconsidering the Bard for the most versatile T3 class. I do think that the class suffers from specialization far more than the Factotum does. Bards are forced to choose their spell selections and wands for bards are quite expensive (unless you use eternal wands only). The Factotum gains access to ALL 8th level Wizard spells, yet the bard can gain access to the small list of 9th level spells from the PrC whose name I forget. I'd be interested in playing in a game with both character types in the same party and seeing how they end up working out. That, or seeing some type of insane Bard//Factotum character in a party going around being able to do everything possible within the entire game.

[Quietus]

I'd like to throw Swordsage in there as an option. Good skill list, lots of skills, and the most maneuvers readied from the largest selection of any of the ToB classes. Their main limiting factor is their poor maneuver recovery method.

[Venger]

Factotum is definitely it

Factotum + Chameleon will get some pretty insane versatility. (That would come at the cost of power and possibly usefulness though.)

~

Binder might come in second place. They change per day though, so they might not really count at all.

I haven't really found that true in my experience. I've been in a campaign for a year and a half with a factotum chameleon and dominate all the time, best character ever. sacrifice in power? yeah, a little on an objective scale versus a theoretical batman wizard, but not so much in practice (our party wizard is a blaster, as are many people who play wizards) , but certainly not in usefulness. between the floating feat and inspiration pool, you can make any skill check in the game reliably. factotum having all skills as class skills and chameleon requiring able learner means you can buy ranks in any skill in the game for your entire career as a character no matter what you choose to do after chameleon (witch slayer 5, cc1/bone knight 4, or even factotum 10 are all popular choices) and craft any item. tank, buff, heal, sneak, face, win. chameleon's fake evasion ability has saved my bacon many a time. between that and cunning insight adding your int bonus to saves lets you laugh off pretty much anything.